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Tokiko Mima
2006-12-07, 12:56 AM
Blue Sorcerer

Alignment
Any.

Hit Die
d4.

Class Skills
The sorcererís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int). At first level the Sorcerer may also choose 3 skills to be class skills for his Sorcerer levels. These skills may not change when the Sorcerer takes another level of Sorcerer.

Skill Points at 1st Level
(2 + Int modifier) ◊ 4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
2 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the sorcerer.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a sorcererís gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

Spells
A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcererís spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcererís Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

A sorcererís selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer canít use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spellís level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells heíll cast.

Spell Conversion
A sorcerer uses magic the way a poet writes a poem, or a singer delivers a song. Given a few moments to prepare his craft, a Sorcerer can convert a spell that he can spontaneously cast into a spell-like ability of the same spell that is usable once and is cast at the sorcerers normal caster level. This consumes a spell slot of that level and can be maintained only until the sorcerer next refreshes his spells. If a metamagic feat raises the spell level of the spell to be converted , a spell slot of the effective spell level must be free and is consumed in order to convert the spell.

The spell-like ability can be used as a standard action and requires no components; either verbal, somatic, material, or focus. If the original spell has an XP cost, that cost must still be paid at the time of casting: this is an exception to the normal rules governing spell-like abilities. If the Quicken Metamagic Feat was applied to the spell being converted, the resulting spell-like ability can be cast as a swift action.You may only convert a number of spells equal to your sorcerer level at any one time.

The amount of time it takes for a sorcerer to convert a spell varies by level. At level 1, a sorcerer takes 5 full rounds to convert a single spell into a spell-like ability. This time decreases by 1 round at 5th level and every 5 levels of Sorcerer taken thereafter, to a minimum of 1 round at level 20. A Sorcerer cannot convert supernatural, extraordinary or other spell-like abilities.

Blue Magic
A Sorcerer does not study magic in the traditional sense that more scholarly casters do. Their learning is intuitive, and this is reflected in their ability at 2nd level to learn from the spell-like abilities of monsters they encounter.

If any creature uses a spell-like ability within 30 feet of the sorcerer or uses a spell like ability on the sorcerer (whether the sorcerer resists the spell or not), the sorcerer is allowed to make a Spellcraft check as a free action (DC is the spells save DC + 5) to learn the spell-like ability. If successful the sorcerer learns and can use three spell slots of equivalent level to convert and prepare an identical spell-like ability that is usable only once, even if the original spell is not on his list of Spells Known. The sorcerer must have at least 3 unused spell slots in order to convert a Blue Magic ability for use.

If a sorcerer cannot cast spells of that level, he cannot convert them into a spell-like ability. Supernatural, Extraordinary, or spell-based abilities cannot be learned in this fashion. The conversion time is identical to normal spell conversion. A Blue Magic spell-like ability requires a standard action to use, unless the original spells casting time was less.

A sorcerer may only know a limit of Blue Magic spells equal to half his sorcerer level. A Blue Magic spell-like ability can be forgotten at any time in order to gain a different Blue Magic ability in it's place. A sorcerer is allowed to know Blue Magic abilities he cannot yet use due to level or slot restrictions.

Increased Spell Conversion Capacity
At 8th level you may add your Charisma modifier to determine the maximum number of spells you can convert to spell-like abilities.

Improved Blue Magic
At 12th level the sorcerer can convert a Blue magic ability at the cost of only two spell slots of equivalent spell level. The sorcerer must have at least 2 unused spell slots of equivalent level in order to convert a Blue Magic ability. A sorcerer now may know a limit of Blue Magic spells equal to half his sorcerer level plus his Charisma modifier.

Spell Conversion Quickness
At 15th level, all spell-like abilities converted using the Spell Conversion feature can be cast as a swift action at the sorcerers option.

Greater Blue Magic
At 18th level the sorcerer can convert a Blue magic ability at the cost of only one spell slot of equivalent spell level. The sorcerer must have at least one unused spell slot of equivalent level in order to convert a Blue Magic ability. Blue Magic spell-like abilities can now be cast as swift actions, regardless of the original spell-like abilities casting time.


Flavor Changes:
I made this variant sorcerer because it bugs me how boring the Sorcerer class can be, when it's supposed to stress being exotic and unique. I wanted a way to reward players willing to stick it out as a Sorcerer to high levels, and to give a hook for Sorcerers to explain why they want to adventure (since they gain spells without having to look for them.)

I dropped the Familiar feat, because it's ineffective as a reason to commit to Sorcerer, and I consider it to be more of a Wizardly class feature anyway. I also added the ability to choose 3 class skills, since the Wizard base class has 9 total more class skills over a sorcerer. Again, the sorcerer must choose his specialty ahead of time, while the wizard generalizes.

A big complaint of sorcerers is that they become too predictable, and it's the Wizards spell flexiblity that allows them to dominate arcane casters. With 10-15 spell-like abilities that aren't tied to spells known and can be traded around and reused, hopefully this is less of a problem. It should also ease up on the penalty sorcerers face during item creation, as they can now cast spells needed generate items without committing themselves to that spell permanently. They just need to find a creature that can cast permanency as a spell-like ability!

This class variant also gives Sorcerers a reason to collect exotic and unusual pets for their spell-like abilities. The blue magic idea came to me when I was trying to create a character to fit the role of a strange pet shop owner with mysterious powers and an assortment of deadly and magical pets. I couldn't get the wizard class to fit the flavor, but sorcerer class as it was didn't explain why she collected her animals.

It also opens the class up to multiclassing with armored type fighters, since a sorcerer willing to prepare spells (from a much smaller spell list) can now cast them as spell-like abilities without incuring Arcane Spell Failure. I don't consider this overpowering, as wizards gain spell levels faster than sorcerers anyway, and all it takes is one extra spell level to use metamagic: Still Spell.

What do you think? Overpowered? Balanced with Wizard flexibility?

Khantalas
2006-12-07, 05:55 AM
You do know that if someone casts a spell on you to hurt you, with blue magic you learn a spell that hurts you?

icke
2006-12-07, 06:22 AM
You do know that if someone casts a spell on you to hurt you, with blue magic you learn a spell that hurts you?

No, You don't. The "hurt"-effect must be from a spell-like ability to be accessable, so no spellcaster can teach Your sorcerer the Fireball spell by toasting her, and the 'casrer' must be in range...
The only possible learning method is from sorcerer to sorcerer, as the sorcerer is able to convert spells to spell-like abilities.

To Tokiko Mima:

I like it very much, it spices up the poor sorcerer a bit and that's surely overdue.
However, I see a problem with the massive quickening of spell-like abilities without any restrictions, make this usable once per day per ecery five sorcerer levels or something like it.

Altair_the_Vexed
2006-12-07, 07:31 AM
Well done! I can't see any other potential flaws in this class right now...

I think this is a very good idea - but I'd want to play-test it extensively before I throw out the old sorcerer and replace it with this one.

Nocte
2006-12-07, 09:45 AM
What happens If the Quicken Metamagic Feat was applied to a spell and you have the feat Quicken Spell-Like Ability?

amanodel
2006-12-07, 10:04 AM
You do know that if someone casts a spell on you to hurt you, with blue magic you learn a spell that hurts you?

I believe it was a reference to the 8bit theater (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=060429), wasn't it (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=060502)? :D

The idea behind the class is good, and I couldn't spot anything which would threaten the game balance seriously. But to say that for sure, one must look over the entire monsters manual, lokoing for cheesy spell-like abilities. But good idea, I like it.

Mewtarthio
2006-12-07, 10:41 AM
I believe it was a reference to the 8bit theater (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=060429), wasn't it (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=060502)? :D

I believe that Final Fantasy (which 8BT parodies) had blue magic in its later games.


The idea behind the class is good, and I couldn't spot anything which would threaten the game balance seriously. But to say that for sure, one must look over the entire monsters manual, lokoing for cheesy spell-like abilities. But good idea, I like it.

You can't pour through the MM looking for cheesy SLAs because all SLAs are based off of spells. The Sorceror can only learn normal spells.

The only thing I have an issue with is Spell Conversion Quickness. There are plenty of spells that are balanced out by their long casting times. With this ability, you can blast someone with Geas/Quest (no save) in a standard action instead of ten minutes (which requires your target to be either willing or incapacititated).

Tokiko Mima
2006-12-07, 11:17 AM
Thanks for the comments!


No, You don't. The "hurt"-effect must be from a spell-like ability to be accessable, so no spellcaster can teach Your sorcerer the Fireball spell by toasting her, and the 'casrer' must be in range...
The only possible learning method is from sorcerer to sorcerer, as the sorcerer is able to convert spells to spell-like abilities.

Exactly! That was also something I was attempting to add as well: a benefit for sorcerers to meet and learn from each other, since they can trade their Blue Magic abilities.



I like it very much, it spices up the poor sorcerer a bit and that's surely overdue.
However, I see a problem with the massive quickening of spell-like abilities without any restrictions, make this usable once per day per ecery five sorcerer levels or something like it.

I agree that quickening all the spell-like abilities might be something that would need to be tested. My rationale is that sorcerers are designed to have more spells in the first place, and if they can't use them at a faster rate then that extra capacity goes to waste in a short spell battle, and only comes into play during the last 1-2 fights in a given day. I will definately consider granting Quicken Spell-Like Ability instead of making all spell-likes swift actions. It has a number of use/day limit just like you described.


What happens If the Quicken Metamagic Feat was applied to a spell and you have the feat Quicken Spell-Like Ability?

Since it was already Quickened, I assume that that use of Quicken Spell-Like Ability would be wasted, much like applying a Silent spell to a spell without a Verbal component wastes a spell level.


You can't pour through the MM looking for cheesy SLAs because all SLAs are based off of spells. The Sorceror can only learn normal spells.

The only thing I have an issue with is Spell Conversion Quickness. There are plenty of spells that are balanced out by their long casting times. With this ability, you can blast someone with Geas/Quest (no save) in a standard action instead of ten minutes (which requires your target to be either willing or incapacititated).

Agreed, I'll have to look at those particular spells. The quicken part only comes into play at level 15 or higher, at which point Automatic Quicken Spell is not too far away. Is there a special way of handling these long casting time spells for someone with an Automatic Quicken feat?

ChaosStorm
2006-12-07, 11:35 AM
So perhaps the ability to cast Swift Action spell-like abilities should be in regard to the casting time of the original spell? Anything that's one round to cast or less is a swift action and then spells that take longer to cast have a reduction in casting time but not down to a swift action.

Tokiko Mima
2006-12-07, 05:59 PM
So perhaps the ability to cast Swift Action spell-like abilities should be in regard to the casting time of the original spell? Anything that's one round to cast or less is a swift action and then spells that take longer to cast have a reduction in casting time but not down to a swift action.

That's true. I might just disallow spells that have casting times longer than 3 rounds from being converted. The reason being that spell-like abilities aren't generally meant to have long casting times. In fact, they're all supposed to be cast in one round, regardless. e.g. A succubus with Geas as a spell-like ability casts it in a single round, because all SLA's are one round casts, or less.

Jack_Simth
2006-12-07, 06:29 PM
The idea behind the class is good, and I couldn't spot anything which would threaten the game balance seriously. But to say that for sure, one must look over the entire monsters manual, lokoing for cheesy spell-like abilities. But good idea, I like it.

Oh, the Efreeti comes to mind. A once/day spell-like ability that grants up to three wishes to a nongenie, with a save DC of 18 - a DC 23 spellcraft check. A Blue Sorcerer with 9th level spell slots can make that easily. It's not actually Wish in and of itself, and as it started as a spell-like, rather than a spell, there's no XP cost....

Oh, and it's only got 10 HD. One Planar Binding (also Magic Circle Against Evil, Dimensional Anchor, and maybe a few other spells), and you're good to go.

Then there's the party Paladin's Special Mount, Remove Disease, and Detect Evil.

Of course, this makes Summon Monster a really handy spell for a Blue Sorcerer.... at 18th (Summon Monster IX) the Couatle has all four detect alignment spells, Detect Thoughts, Invisibility, and Plane Shift. A Leonal has Heal, Cure Critical Wounds, Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease, Detect Thoughts, Fireball, Hold Monster, and Wall of Force. A Barbed Devil has Summon Devil, Greater Teleport, Hold Person, Major Image, Scorching Ray, Order's Wrath, and Unholy Blight. A Night Hag gets all four detect alignments, Detect Magic, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleep, and Etherealness. A Hezrou gets Chaos Hammer, Greater Teleport, Unholy Blight, and Blasphemy.

Granted, with Summon Monster, they can't use their Spell-likes that would cost XP as spells, and they can't use any planar travel abilities they have.... but for a Blue Sorcerer, a Summon Monster spell practically replaces a spellbook, and Greater Planar Binding gets them just about anything they could ask for... if they take Knoweledge(The Planes), of course. Deal or not, shouldn't be too difficult to get an outsider to show you a spell-like or three (for you or at you....).

Khantalas
2006-12-07, 06:51 PM
Of course, basic knowledge of 8-Bit Theater would help people get that joke. Like Amanodel did. I just read the Blue Magic part and I was "Whoa, Black Mage joke incarnate!".

icke
2006-12-08, 06:28 AM
Oh, the Efreeti comes to mind. A once/day spell-like ability that grants up to three wishes to a nongenie, with a save DC of 18 - a DC 23 spellcraft check. A Blue Sorcerer with 9th level spell slots can make that easily. It's not actually Wish in and of itself, and as it started as a spell-like, rather than a spell, there's no XP cost....

Oh, and it's only got 10 HD. One Planar Binding (also Magic Circle Against Evil, Dimensional Anchor, and maybe a few other spells), and you're good to go.

Then there's the party Paladin's Special Mount, Remove Disease, and Detect Evil.

Of course, this makes Summon Monster a really handy spell for a Blue Sorcerer.... at 18th (Summon Monster IX) the Couatle has all four detect alignment spells, Detect Thoughts, Invisibility, and Plane Shift. A Leonal has Heal, Cure Critical Wounds, Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease, Detect Thoughts, Fireball, Hold Monster, and Wall of Force. A Barbed Devil has Summon Devil, Greater Teleport, Hold Person, Major Image, Scorching Ray, Order's Wrath, and Unholy Blight. A Night Hag gets all four detect alignments, Detect Magic, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleep, and Etherealness. A Hezrou gets Chaos Hammer, Greater Teleport, Unholy Blight, and Blasphemy.

Granted, with Summon Monster, they can't use their Spell-likes that would cost XP as spells, and they can't use any planar travel abilities they have.... but for a Blue Sorcerer, a Summon Monster spell practically replaces a spellbook, and Greater Planar Binding gets them just about anything they could ask for... if they take Knoweledge(The Planes), of course. Deal or not, shouldn't be too difficult to get an outsider to show you a spell-like or three (for you or at you....).


Hmm, these are serious problems.
One should restrict the sorcerer to spell-like abilities that resemble sor/wiz spells only(no need for him to be able to cast cure spells, for example). Aditionally the Summon Monster spell should not be able to give him spells(There are already so many restriction on summoned monsters, one more doesn't kill You...)
Planar Binding works fine with me, however, if the sorcerer takes a personal risk he may gain a reward.

Maybe one should change the Blue Magic ability in a way that a sorcerer must see the spell-like ability more often in order to get it for himself? Or reset the DC to learn the ability to (20+(spell level)-(number of times he saw it being used)). That would surely limit it a bit.

Seraph
2006-12-08, 04:50 PM
No, You don't. The "hurt"-effect must be from a spell-like ability to be accessable, so no spellcaster can teach Your sorcerer the Fireball spell by toasting her, and the 'casrer' must be in range...
The only possible learning method is from sorcerer to sorcerer, as the sorcerer is able to convert spells to spell-like abilities.

I beg (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=060427) to (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=060429) differ (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=060502).

ChaosStorm
2006-12-08, 05:54 PM
Okay, the 8-bit thing is bothering me. Sarda is almost an omnipotent being and that spell-like ability in no way resembles any spells-like abilities found in the D&D world. The very nature of the spell was to cause harm to Black Mage. The very nature of the spells found in D&D do not fall into that category.

But did I mention that I'm in love with this class? The sorcerer has always been one of my favorite classes, and I felt that it needs something more to make it on par with the Wizard class abilities.

I'm personally against having the mage see the spell more than one time, but that's because I like how this class resembles Blue Magic from final fantasy. Others may wish to move the class farther away from this imagery.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2006-12-09, 03:19 AM
You do know that if someone casts a spell on you to hurt you, with blue magic you learn a spell that hurts you?

You're referencing 8-Bit Theatre, right? That's because when Sarda used make Black Mage puke his guts out on Black Mage, he learned the make Black Mage puke his guts out lore. Make Black Mage puke his guts out has a Range of Black Mage, which is why it makes him puke his guts out no matter how he casts it (and it's darn funny). Black Mage was perfectly capable of using the touch-range goblin punch lore on another monster in combat.


Anyways...
It's just a Sorcerer with the ability to blow three spell slots to duplicate spell-like abilities used on him, and he can eventually cut down on the spell slots needed. Neat. However, the ability for him to turn his own spells into spell-like abilities, and at higher levels auto-quicken them, is much too powerful, and makes this a bit more confusing than it needs to be.
I would make blue magic a sorcerer variant rather than a new class, it's a pretty good replacement for a familiar, and makes the sorcerer unique.

Triaxx
2006-12-09, 08:05 AM
Since it was already Quickened, I assume that that use of Quicken Spell-Like Ability would be wasted, much like applying a Silent spell to a spell without a Verbal component wastes a spell level.

While it's not entirely on topic, I've got to disagree with that last statement. I've had vehement arguments with other players about silent/still spell applied to spells that don't necessarily need it. Ninety-nine percent of the time, I've found myself with an extra casting of that spell when I really need it, because it's been Silent/Still spelled to a slightly higher level.

Malachite
2006-12-09, 02:55 PM
You know you can cast lower level spells from higher level spell slots, right? You don't have to apply metamagic to prepare them in a higher level slot than necessary.

Triaxx
2006-12-09, 06:47 PM
I know, but my character is the sort that has to rationalize whatever he's doing. Adding the metamagic gives him that feeling of 'this is why I did it', and it makes for a more consistent character.

Mewtarthio
2006-12-09, 07:06 PM
How does "I couldn't cast it otherwise" work on the rationalization scale?

Triaxx
2006-12-10, 01:55 PM
It's in the 'Over-rationalizer' hand book next to "Because I said so."

He says it's a waste of magical energy to cast a lesser spell at a higher level without some benefit, and since spells don't necessarily scale up, adding meta-magic, even one that's completely useless, let's him ignore that minor thing.