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zorenathres
2013-07-09, 06:57 PM
correct that, my girlfriend wants to be god...

greetings folks, I am a relatively experienced DM, who prefers to run D&D 3.X games, usually using the E6 variant or my own E12 rules. We have been playing more lately & my GF prefers the higher levels of play (she is relatively new to RPG's), we are doing solo runs to get her more comfortable. Today she's going off on this tangent about playing a god, & not just any god, but THE GOD.

So I explain D&D's cosmology & the general layout of the pantheons, & she said "well they wont be there for long..." with an evil grin. She is even willing to start at level 1 & go up from there all the way to godhood, at which point I tried explaining that I am not all too comfortable running epic games, mainly because of the lack of experience on both our parts (I have more experience with mid-level play, & though I make epic builds, I rarely get to use them).

Basically, she wants to do a solo run against the cosmos, & while I am willing to give it a try I would really appreciate any alternatives to using the divine rank rules, I suppose using the ELH is inevitable & it will likely end in the epic levels, but I have no experience with divine rank rules or making statted gods.

Also, what can look out for as potential problems? I have no problem running solo adventures, but the threat-level usually has to be handicapped, & I wonder about the satisfaction of defeating handicapped gods. I wonder now, I know some folks here have played crazy campaigns where they kill a god, but how much is too much?

JusticeZero
2013-07-09, 07:04 PM
Well, you know the thing about experience, is that it only comes with experience..

AstralFire
2013-07-09, 07:20 PM
My first thought is that you may wish to look into Exalted or a FATE conversion for Exalted (the latter being simple to learn) as this is not something D&D handles well. At all.

If you're determined to go through with it, I'd play with (LOW) divine ranks first and low levels. 0 - 5 DiRank is much more easily handled than epic levels, if only for the sake of not having so much number spam.

Grinner
2013-07-09, 07:23 PM
That sounds like a massive headache...

Have you all talked about using a different system? Or does she want to play epic-level D&D 3.5 specifically?

OverdrivePrime
2013-07-09, 07:25 PM
correct that, my girlfriend wants to be god...

Sounds about right. :smallcool:

zorenathres
2013-07-09, 07:43 PM
Sounds about right. :smallcool:

Well, after further deliberation, she wants to kill all the gods, & ensure that none ever return or new ones ascend, thus I declare the birth of MEHGAN-KALI!

hehe, well, I don't exclusively run D&D, but I dont have any exalted books & have no experience with that system.

Epic is a possibility, though I also wonder if gods can be reasonably statted around level 19-21? If that's the case (does anyone have some good examples?), it would be much easier for me to run than ECL 50 epic encounters (which are literally a headache for me to do from scratch).

@ Astralfire: did you mean low levels like say divine rank 0 @ level 7?, though no experience with divine ranks, I guess I always assumed you were able to gain them after reaching epic levels.

Spuddles
2013-07-09, 07:45 PM
You could point her towards the interwebs for building something ridiculous. Then just play through published modules and steamroll them.

AstralFire
2013-07-09, 07:45 PM
I'm sure there's a free conversion of Exalted to FATE somewhere, people around here were working on something like that. FATE is like the easiest die system ever (and it's fun, to boot.)

Divine Ranks are entirely separate from levels, and the lowest Divine Ranks are just like having supertemplates with a small list of very strong abilities; epic levels are a problem not because of the sheer power but because of the sheer versatility in a system that was designed to be relatively rigid.

You could even take the el cheapo way out and just say everyone with a level is a god and NPCs don't have any levels, no chance of harming you, they have an AC of Yes and an HP of Nothing.

Hiro Protagonest
2013-07-09, 07:46 PM
I'm sure there's a free conversion of Exalted to FATE somewhere, people around here were working on something like that.

We were? :smallconfused:

AstralFire
2013-07-09, 07:48 PM
We were? :smallconfused:

A year or more ago, yes. It wasn't anything recent. I come here in spurts.

zorenathres
2013-07-09, 07:56 PM
You could even take the el cheapo way out and just say everyone with a level is a god and NPCs don't have any levels, no chance of harming you, they have an AC of Yes and an HP of Nothing.

this is great, can i possibly sig this?

AstralFire
2013-07-09, 08:13 PM
Uh. Sure. Feel free! :smallsmile:

Waker
2013-07-09, 08:14 PM
Well, you know the thing about experience, is that it only comes with experience..

Nah, that's not the saying. This is the saying he should be listening to.

Good Judgement comes from experience. And experience comes from Bad Judgement.

Here is a silly idea. It's not that powerful, but it might hold some fluff appeal to your girlfriend's machinations. Have her start off as a Cleric. She scampers around for awhile but eventually loses her faith/desire to serve. She swaps all of her levels for the Defiant PrC to start demonstrating her unwillingness to be some chump deities flunky. Then she decides to go a step further and takes the Ur-Priest and begins actively stealing divine power from the gods. So we've got someone who has no respect for the gods, has several powers that are specifically geared against Divine powers and she is actually stealing magic from them. The next logical choice is to start clearing the pantheons with some good ol' fashioned deicide.
Consider making the Defiant abilities based off of Character Level rather than Class Level.

AuraTwilight
2013-07-09, 08:18 PM
Tell her she's welcome to try; don't guarantee she has to succeed.

Elycium
2013-07-09, 08:43 PM
Tell her she's welcome to try; don't guarantee she has to succeed.

I have to agree whit this. What she wants to try is pretty hard, and if she doesn’t have that much experience playing is downright impossible...

Even my favorite monster (Great Wyrm Prismatic), would stop for a few seconds before starting to even think of do such thing.

But again, praying won´t change anything. What will change the present is the resolve to fight.

The game of life, the hunter and the agile prey. Both with their lives on the line, there is no guarantee... which of them will succeed?! Out there only the strong survive.

Xefas
2013-07-09, 09:31 PM
You could even take the el cheapo way out and just say everyone with a level is a god and NPCs don't have any levels, no chance of harming you, they have an AC of Yes and an HP of Nothing.

If you want to see an entire system built off of this axiom, look up Ryan Macklin's free RPG, 'Mythender' (http://mythenderrpg.com/).

In Mythender, you don't roll to see if you succeed. You roll to see how fantastically you succeeded. When your character dies, you tell the GM whether you'd like to stay dead, or just come back more powerful and terrible than ever before. Your character's ultimate potential is measured as "(the strongest thing that currently exists)+1". You don't attack mortals, you just say how many you kill.

The best part? The game is actually pretty crunchy. These things aren't just handled freeform, all "I say I'm this powerful so I am!". You're managing buckets full of dice (the game suggests you bring about 150 d6s), and have plenty of ways to customize your Mythender and influence the outcome of battle. Challenge? Sure, your character can shout so loud that they split the vault of heaven and rain a cascade of falling stars upon their foes, but what is the shattered sky to Jormungandr, the World Serpent? What is a mere cataclysm of light and fire to Shiva the Destroyer? Does Yahweh, who crafted the firmament itself, balk at the ruination of one of his toys?

Prepare to feel like a badass. Just know that you will often be called upon to prove it.

The Glyphstone
2013-07-09, 10:42 PM
If you want to see an entire system built off of this axiom, look up Ryan Macklin's free RPG, 'Mythender' (http://mythenderrpg.com/).

In Mythender, you don't roll to see if you succeed. You roll to see how fantastically you succeeded. When your character dies, you tell the GM whether you'd like to stay dead, or just come back more powerful and terrible than ever before. Your character's ultimate potential is measured as "(the strongest thing that currently exists)+1". You don't attack mortals, you just say how many you kill.

The best part? The game is actually pretty crunchy. These things aren't just handled freeform, all "I say I'm this powerful so I am!". You're managing buckets full of dice (the game suggests you bring about 150 d6s), and have plenty of ways to customize your Mythender and influence the outcome of battle. Challenge? Sure, your character can shout so loud that they split the vault of heaven and rain a cascade of falling stars upon their foes, but what is the shattered sky to Jormungandr, the World Serpent? What is a mere cataclysm of light and fire to Shiva the Destroyer? Does Yahweh, who crafted the firmament itself, balk at the ruination of one of his toys?

Prepare to feel like a badass. Just know that you will often be called upon to prove it.


So basically God of War: Co-op Edition: The RPG?

Madwand99
2013-07-09, 11:29 PM
Sounds like a fun campaign idea, just don't do it in D&D. My favorite system to try it in would be Mutants and Masterminds (though Mythender does sound like fun...). It would be easy to stat up and/or play a god in MnM (Thor, anyone?) and a campaign to kill the gods would be simple enough to run. No need for buckets of dice, all you need is 1d20.

Arcane_Snowman
2013-07-09, 11:34 PM
My first piece of advice is: don't run it in D&D, especially seeing as you've said yourself that you're not comfortable with epic level and high-end stuff. Find something which is more suited to high-level play as a baseline, like Exalted. Mythender as pointed to above sounds conceptually like a very good start, although I don't know the mechanics so I can't vet it 100%. FATE will also definitely help you out.

Mutants and Masterminds 3rd ed (http://www.d20herosrd.com/) also has a SRD and is also suitable. It also very closely resembles D&D and so should be the easy to learn.

When the goal is to be the most awesome person in the multiverse, it's easier and also lighter load-wise on you the DM, to have your player make a starting character in a system that assumes the player is really awesome (like Exalted), as opposed to one which assumes you're an average individual out to kill goblins.

Big Fau
2013-07-10, 12:01 AM
You could even take the el cheapo way out and just say everyone with a level is a god and NPCs don't have any levels, no chance of harming you, they have an AC of Yes and an HP of Nothing.

I was actually going to suggest that myself. Have the party start as demigods without actually using the Epic rules/Divine Rank rules, then stat out existing gods as mid-level NPCs that the party can realistically kill. As the party levels up, have them gain followers (ala Leadership) and servants (premade "Cohorts"). As for the enemies they run up against, they could be divine exarchs, aspects, and avatars of the various pantheons. Mix in some "normal" enemies that clearly don't stand a chance just to maintain the illusion.

After all several demigods in D&D were between 5th-11th level if you look for the right material (Hercules for example, although not a very good one). Post-campaign you can start over with the players as normal characters, and the previous party (or more specifically your GF) as the reigning divine being(s).

Dyslexic Poet
2013-07-10, 03:45 AM
A few years back I ran a campaign that was supposed to end up like this. They had been given the custody of a young girl in a white dress, who carried around a gemstone for them, and promised untold riches to be in a holy place with the girl and the stone.

As the story unfolded the players were told that a new god was going to be born, and most of the old D&D gods made appearances, with Tiamat and her five dragon prophets were the main villains. (Imhotep made a fun appearance as well)
Soon enough all kinds of items are showing up (Like that one crystal) that has a Divine Level inside it, heroes, gods, and villains all showing up. Everyone trying to steal mighty mcguffins, and end up in places of power to split and share the levels.

Durring two major fights the players all gave their Divine powers to one character to make her (him the second time) powerful enough to crush their enemy.

(Different person, not a transgendered deity)

...Jeez this is getting pretty long. :smalleek:

Some items gave specific abilities and divine powers. Like Moradin's hammer giving you his domains, and the ability to shape stone and metals. Some areas would temporarily grant everyone nearby several divine levels to make epic battles more epic.

I even threw in a few poorly balanced mini games, where to win a mcguffin they would gain temporary Big Godhood over a temporal world, and have to raise a population to fight against the bad guy population.

--------ANYWAY
For your campaign you can make the whole thing a giant treasure hunt, it gives you excuses to travel anywhere, and fight everyone.
Gods are not supposed to be easy to kill, but take their power and they're not gods anymore, wont even have to kill all of them.

Bonus points if you have a villain eating gods to get their power Sylar style.

I did a lot of studying for this campaign and probably did more than I needed to. Just do enough to let your players get an idea of what they can do, then find out what they want to do.

nedz
2013-07-10, 03:53 AM
Just have her play a healer.

Eldan
2013-07-10, 05:44 AM
Hm. You know, this is problematic in D&D mainly for one reason:

Both the epic and divine rules suck and suck horribly. The ELH especially is a miserable pile of dysfunctionality with just about nothing useful in it.

I agree with the people who say that you should try a different system. Exalted, Nobilis, anything that deals more with those power levels. Or just stat it up yourself in Mutants and Masterminds.

The Rose Dragon
2013-07-10, 08:07 AM
So basically God of War: Co-op Edition: The RPG?

Looks more like Asura's Wrath than God of War to me.

Anyway, I'm nthing Mutants & Masterminds. Anima Prime would actually be a great fit for this, but unfortunately, it is singularly unsuited to solo campaigns, since most mechanics are based on intraparty interactions.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-07-10, 08:45 AM
So basically God of War: Co-op Edition: The RPG?
Better.

For a reference point, we pulled the moon down on Thor and blasted a hole through the core of the earth on a one-shot demo scenario. The campaign itself would keep going.

But yeah--Mythender totally fits that theme. The only problem is, the gods are really tough in a 1v1, and Mythender is a competitive RPG.

Nobilis might work as well.

thenorm42
2013-07-10, 10:55 AM
It's probably not ideal for D&D-esque god-murdering in its standard setting, given that a lot of the Nobles are Immortal, but you could steal the miracle system from Nobilis. That gives you great guidelines on how to create and adjudicate actual god-like powers over a particular concept (like Space, or Blood, or even Table Manners). In many ways, it's like a Sandman RPG.

The Aspect miracles are a good way of doing larger-than-life 'special moves' too.

Scow2
2013-07-10, 11:05 AM
Bleh... Mythender looks like a terrible place to start, because it assumes Gods are stronger than they really are.

I'd say use BECMI if you want this gameplay. Or even AD&D. Or, stat gods in the range of CR 15-20 for a D&D Game (After all, Titans are only CR 20, and gods are supposed to fear them). Ancient Wyrm dragons could exceed the power of Gods, were it not for the lack of their Divine Ranks (Which probably need to be redesigned).

In AD&D, Lolth, the goddess of spiders and webs and Drow, had an AC of -10 (Equivalent of AC 30) and 66 HP, and her power, while formidable, was not insurmountable to a level 14-15 party.

zorenathres
2013-07-10, 11:40 AM
I'd say use BECMI if you want this gameplay. Or even AD&D. Or, stat gods in the range of CR 15-20 for a D&D Game (After all, Titans are only CR 20, and gods are supposed to fear them). Ancient Wyrm dragons could exceed the power of Gods, were it not for the lack of their Divine Ranks (Which probably need to be redesigned).

This is what I was asking earlier & I guess this is an answer, I was planning on making the gods around LV 20-21, ignoring divine ranks & most of the ridiculousness of the ELH.

As for the many recommendations to try another system, I have no access to or experience with Exalted, Mythbender sounds ludicrous, M&M: I have 2nd ED & could go this way (its going to be much easier than a complete system change).

Yogibear41
2013-07-12, 02:02 PM
Well, after further deliberation, she wants to kill all the gods, & ensure that none ever return or new ones ascend, thus I declare the birth of MEHGAN-KALI!


If the gods are stupid enough to let a mortal that starts out at level 1 kill them then they deserve to die....

as far as classes though you may want to have her look into ur-priest, or maybe even mystic from dragonlance its more or less a spontaneous cleric that doesn't pray for its spells.

Aneurin
2013-07-12, 05:33 PM
If I were to run this as D&D 3.5, then I think I'd actually do it as an E6 game. Well, kinda.

The rest of the world is E6 - level 6 characters are extremely rare, and almost superhuman in ability, so on and so forth. It isn't possible to conventionally level up beyond that. A 'god' is a level 20 character - compared to a level 6 character, there's very little difference, really, though I think I'd tack some form of casting on to them (if nothing else, they should have access to Miracle or equivalent. The delightful effect of this is that a.) you don't have to deal with Epic, and b.) you don't have to deal with divine ranks. Level 6 is the limit of human potential; anything beyond that and you stop being human.

Each new level is the result of an epic quest, and acquired independently of experience which may be used normally under the E6 system. Either they would have to craft their own gear, or go off on side-quests chasing legendary weapons, armour and such like - each of which should have its own name and history, naturally.

For me, the quests would be things that undermine the other deities you are attempting replace, perhaps - stealing the sacred gem-eyes of the statue of Lolth before brewing them in to a potion that the party drinks to steal a fragment of her divine essence - reducing their power, while increasing the party's own. Plus, a gradual transition to power by joint rituals makes it harder for one character to back-stab the others and take it all for themselves.

After fourteen (or more) truly epic quests, you eventually get your show down with the gods - a cataclysmic conflict, in which thousand-foot-tall figures do battle across the burning world below them; cities are crushed under foot in the battle of the titans, and the seas are red with the blood of the gods. Forests tremble and fall at the mere approach of the warriors, and continents buckle and shatter in the face of the forces unleashed.

This is, of course, the last gambit of the gods. The players aren't really giants; they've just been dragged to a demiplane one of the gods has created that is, in effect, the world in miniature - and they make the characters destroy it in the fight, in a desparate bid to make the PCs turn back from their quest for godhood.



Hmm... I'm actually starting to quite like this. Curse my lack of time to actually run something like it :smallfrown:

zorenathres
2013-07-12, 10:22 PM
If I were to run this as D&D 3.5, then I think I'd actually do it as an E6 game. Well, kinda.


This actually sounds like a lot of fun, & is actually the easiest for me to implement since we run E6 regularly, thanks for the wonderful ideas!

Aneurin
2013-07-13, 06:30 AM
Glad to help :smallsmile:

Thinking about it more, you'd probably have to hand-wave the odd power (clerics and the like tap in to divine auras, rather than being actively granted powers and so on) - and give the Fighter some unique abilities as it progresses beyond 6, because bonus feats just aren't special when you're getting the normal E6 feat progression too.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-07-13, 09:02 AM
I can't speak for divine ranks.

But assuming you statted the god, they'd probably have to be past level 20 unless if you wanted dragons to be capable of killing gods.

Though she doesn't need to kill the gods in combat, it could be through roleplay.
Setting up the right rituals and traps to bait the gods into etc.

If through combat though, you may want to look at Unearthed Arcana and give her Gestalt.

Gods are expected to be a massive challenge for a team of 4 level 20's, if she's soloing this she'll need all the power she can get. Plus she'd probably want to take advantage of the leadership feat.

Scow2
2013-07-13, 09:45 AM
But assuming you statted the god, they'd probably have to be past level 20 unless if you wanted dragons to be capable of killing gods.And what's wrong with the eldest and most powerful of Dragons being able to be a threat to a God it can meet? Gods have tools at their disposal that allow them to avoid "Greater Threats" such as Dragons. Area of Influence is a big deal. And, it explains why a God won't intervene directly when a town of its worshippers is taken over by a dragon.

I find Gods work best when their power is greater the further you are from it.

zorenathres
2013-07-13, 02:51 PM
well, looking over some sandman comics, I like how Morpheus can be tricked/ trapped by a witch.

I guess you don't really have to be as strong as a god to kill them, as long as you know their weaknesses & the methods with which to ensnare them (@ Gwazi, good heads up on rites & rituals). Also, I tend to think of gods occupying places of power, & when they leave these places, they leave some of their power behind. Likely, I am trying to run with these concepts to better rationalize an E6 character killing a god.

An update, Ill be using E12 Gestalt, with additional "levels" & progression something akin to the Evoluionist Homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13115715#post13115715), where the PC gets to evolve according to her desires in addition to my modified E12 feat progression. Her goal will be to absorb the might of the gods & kill or replace them, their absorbed power coming in the form of evolutions (I picked it because of the broad array of options, BAB, AC, EX's, SLA's & Psionics etc...).

Wings of Peace
2013-07-14, 02:57 AM
She's dropping hints man, girl wants to play Nobilis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobilis).

Starshade
2013-07-14, 08:32 AM
Planescapeish setting, she playing a descendant of a god (like, aasimar or thiefling, or angel of sort), god dies, she start pick up stuff underway, and slowly takes on the divinity?

Kiren
2013-07-14, 01:48 PM
I recommend tying divine rank to the amount of worshipers one has. The faith of many beings may grant godly power to a character. Set benchmarks of follower worshipers that grant divine rank, allow for divine rank to grant all around stat bonuses to put one's character in line with a god. At an early divine rank, rule that a deity cannot be killed by a character with no divine rank (Divine rank 0 still allows for a winnable fight with a powerful deity albeit with great difficulty.)

Vindcara
2013-07-14, 11:01 PM
if i had someone wanting to play as a god personally i would just treat it as a race and then give an explanation why she isnt at full power, example: you are a forgotten god that has been reawakened and escaped from the panthions of the heavens to the mortal wourld, however in your escape you were discovered and your powers were split off and scatered.

now you have a reason why she is both a god, has the POTENTIAL to be a panthion killing full fledged god, but still can start at whatever level you deem apropriat(personally i would choose lv 1) now you just periodically have her desover one of a group of artifacts that are or contain her lost power and return a portion of it.

this spacific premis also alows her to make up whatever backstory she wants because she is a "forgotten" god.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-07-15, 04:45 AM
And what's wrong with the eldest and most powerful of Dragons being able to be a threat to a God it can meet? Gods have tools at their disposal that allow them to avoid "Greater Threats" such as Dragons. Area of Influence is a big deal. And, it explains why a God won't intervene directly when a town of its worshippers is taken over by a dragon.

I find Gods work best when their power is greater the further you are from it.

Personally I prefer gods when they have their limitations and weakness, explaining why the can't fix the worlds problems.

If my issue with most religions in the real world, using Christianity as an example cause I'm most familiar with it.
The god is all infinite and all knowing, why do we still have all these powers in the world?

(Please, no one start a religious debate)

I find gods much more likable when there is reason for them not doing things other than that "He's a prick" or "Because he chooses not to", "Must not get involved", "Freedom of will - where arguably the victims of such things lost their free will" etc.

But in D&D terms, they seem to be of similar level to gods worshiped in real life.
And in that sense, I don't see any dragon successfully killing a god through any normal or combat means.


well, looking over some sandman comics, I like how Morpheus can be tricked/ trapped by a witch.

I guess you don't really have to be as strong as a god to kill them, as long as you know their weaknesses & the methods with which to ensnare them (@ Gwazi, good heads up on rites & rituals). Also, I tend to think of gods occupying places of power, & when they leave these places, they leave some of their power behind. Likely, I am trying to run with these concepts to better rationalize an E6 character killing a god.

An update, Ill be using E12 Gestalt, with additional "levels" & progression something akin to the Evoluionist Homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13115715#post13115715), where the PC gets to evolve according to her desires in addition to my modified E12 feat progression. Her goal will be to absorb the might of the gods & kill or replace them, their absorbed power coming in the form of evolutions (I picked it because of the broad array of options, BAB, AC, EX's, SLA's & Psionics etc...).

You're welcome :)

And I'm liking your E12 Gestalt idea a lot.
I also like the sound of the evoluntionist idea, but can you try to explain in more detail how you plan to add it?
Are you just giving her set mutations per god, does she gain control of what mutations she gets? Does she choose from any mutation or just specific ones you have from each god? How many does she get per god?

zorenathres
2013-07-15, 11:08 AM
And I'm liking your E12 Gestalt idea a lot.
I also like the sound of the evoluntionist idea, but can you try to explain in more detail how you plan to add it?
Are you just giving her set mutations per god, does she gain control of what mutations she gets? Does she choose from any mutation or just specific ones you have from each god? How many does she get per god?

Well, thats what I am trying to figure out, I was starting with the idea of set mutations, when a god is defeated, the PC gains a "level", appropriate bonus feat(s), & 3-4 mutations (With the "set" idea, they would be determined by the DM according to the defeated gods portfolio/ powers). I would prefer that they are set by the DM because my GF has no experience with optimization, & I want to make less work for the PC to make things a little easier.

3-4 mutations/ E12 "epic" level might be too much for a normal PC, but she is fighting the gods, how does this sound? I can go with any number, if its too high let me know...

enderlord99
2013-07-15, 12:46 PM
Two words: Pun. Pun.

Surprised it hadn't been mentioned yet.

Eldan
2013-07-15, 12:53 PM
Pun-pun can't be played. It's frankly impossible.

enderlord99
2013-07-15, 01:05 PM
Pun-pun can't be played. It's frankly impossible.

I was told she wanted her character to be God.

Pun-pun is the only (set of) build(s) that truly fits.

He could also tell her something like "fine, you're DM now, here's my notes, now just let me make a character for myself."

I might be misinterpreting, but that's what I thought they were asking for.

Aneurin
2013-07-15, 01:26 PM
Well, thats what I am trying to figure out, I was starting with the idea of set mutations, when a god is defeated, the PC gains a "level", appropriate bonus feat(s), & 3-4 mutations (With the "set" idea, they would be determined by the DM according to the defeated gods portfolio/ powers). I would prefer that they are set by the DM because my GF has no experience with optimization, & I want to make less work for the PC to make things a little easier.

3-4 mutations/ E12 "epic" level might be too much for a normal PC, but she is fighting the gods, how does this sound? I can go with any number, if its too high let me know...

Eh... not quite what you want, but check out the Summoner class on the PFSRD - the Eidolon evolutions (or whatever they're called) may be useful as a guideline. I've never read them particularly closely, so they may not fit, but they allow for wings and other physical changes, and I believe some SLAs.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-07-15, 03:33 PM
Well, thats what I am trying to figure out, I was starting with the idea of set mutations, when a god is defeated, the PC gains a "level", appropriate bonus feat(s), & 3-4 mutations (With the "set" idea, they would be determined by the DM according to the defeated gods portfolio/ powers). I would prefer that they are set by the DM because my GF has no experience with optimization, & I want to make less work for the PC to make things a little easier.

3-4 mutations/ E12 "epic" level might be too much for a normal PC, but she is fighting the gods, how does this sound? I can go with any number, if its too high let me know...

3-4 mutations can be very powerful, or very weak depending on what mutations they are and what kind of character shes making.

There are 19 base deities though, (a ton more if you go for minor ones, list here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_deities#Greater_deiti es), but assuming it's 19 deities she'll end up with around 57-76 mutations which should be appropriate.

But note, that's after she's killed all the deities. For most of the game she'll be working with far less.

As for if you choose or she does, it's really player preference.
If I was DM personally though I'd make a small list of mutations from each god though that suits them and then when the player kills them they get to pick some out of said list.

zorenathres
2013-07-15, 05:44 PM
Two words: Pun. Pun.

Surprised it hadn't been mentioned yet.

Errr, thankfully it was not yet mentioned, till now, & were not interested in doing anything like that :smallbiggrin:


Eh... not quite what you want, but check out the Summoner class on the PFSRD - the Eidolon evolutions (or whatever they're called) may be useful as a guideline. I've never read them particularly closely, so they may not fit, but they allow for wings and other physical changes, and I believe some SLAs.

yep, I'm familiar with these, & they are really better suited to their purpose, as the mutations will really fulfill most of the desired abilities. however, its a wonderful direction to look to for more inspiration, so thank you for reminding me to take a look at the pathfinder stuff...



3-4 mutations can be very powerful, or very weak depending on what mutations they are and what kind of character shes making. If I was DM personally though I'd make a small list of mutations from each god though that suits them and then when the player kills them they get to pick some out of said list.

Exactly what I was thinking, their "portfolio" would include their domains & potential mutations which they could imbue upon their death. Good thinking Gwazi! True that while some mutations are weak, overall though they will still add to the characters progression.

As for the end of the game, I was thinking about it ending with the last surviving gods death, & with its death she may either unravel or restructure the multi-verse, becoming its "creator" or its destroyer...

nedz
2013-07-15, 05:58 PM
I was told she wanted her character to be God.

Pun-pun is the only (set of) build(s) that truly fits.

He could also tell her something like "fine, you're DM now, here's my notes, now just let me make a character for myself."

I might be misinterpreting, but that's what I thought they were asking for.

Not Pun-Pun, but if she wants to be god then she should DM.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-07-16, 03:08 AM
Exactly what I was thinking, their "portfolio" would include their domains & potential mutations which they could imbue upon their death. Good thinking Gwazi! True that while some mutations are weak, overall though they will still add to the characters progression.

As for the end of the game, I was thinking about it ending with the last surviving gods death, & with its death she may either unravel or restructure the multi-verse, becoming its "creator" or its destroyer...

Sounds good to me :)

And this does sound like an awesome campaign that you two are setting up. Best of luck.

But I do need to ask, if the focus in god slaying why is it an E12 game?
And if starting at 1st level, what do you plan to do for most of the campaign where she's no where near capable to taking on a god?

zorenathres
2013-07-16, 12:08 PM
Sounds good to me :)

And this does sound like an awesome campaign that you two are setting up. Best of luck.

But I do need to ask, if the focus in god slaying why is it an E12 game?
And if starting at 1st level, what do you plan to do for most of the campaign where she's no where near capable to taking on a god?

well, my GF came up with the idea of formerly being a god, forced into reincarnation as a mortal, she must work her way back up the ladder to break it down...

BTW, she offered to start @ LV-1, but we have yet to begin so I am undecided on where to start her.

Kiren
2013-07-16, 02:09 PM
well, my GF came up with the idea of formerly being a god, forced into reincarnation as a mortal, she must work her way back up the ladder to break it down...

BTW, she offered to start @ LV-1, but we have yet to begin so I am undecided on where to start her.

Just a suggestion: If you are looking to start from an early level then perhaps an excellent buildup to god hood and a good quest plot would be a journey to find godly artifacts lost throughout the ages in an effort to gain back the powers of a god/take down the pantheon. Have each artifact have multiple levels of power,but have give level of power past a certain point a chance to alert archons and avatars as wells as even deities to the characters location. Having a higher character level would give the character a greater ability to suppress the alerting effect. The final item would be capable of returning the character to the godly realms. But not back.

Kogak
2013-07-16, 06:12 PM
Seems to me that an easy work-around would be setting up something akin to the "Time of Troubles" in the Forgotten Realms setting. Have her scheming quietly to bring about a scenario in which all the gods are stripped of their powers and simply powerful (and readily killable) mortals. Have one or two gods manage to maintain their power and use them as the end-of-campaign 'just got to epic look how bad*** I am' fight to gain all of the divine ranks coming her way.

Drop hints that the powers that grant an Alienist its powers may be able to cut the divine off from their power to really make her decide if she's willing to sell everything for the power. Dunno how she'd deal with Ao, since fighting it amounts to "you don't". However, since overdeities care nothing for mortals, it makes for a convenient end of campaign as she goes off in search of new and more powerful beings to destroy (making for a campaign setting with no gods or divine magic...).

Gwazi Magnum
2013-07-17, 01:24 AM
well, my GF came up with the idea of formerly being a god, forced into reincarnation as a mortal, she must work her way back up the ladder to break it down...

BTW, she offered to start @ LV-1, but we have yet to begin so I am undecided on where to start her.

Ah I see, and I agree with others that perhaps a hunt for godly artifacts and powers could help. Maybe she gains some mutations from certain artifacts, tombs, relics etc as well?

But I'm still not sure why she has to stop leveling up at E12 if it's a slay the gods kind of campaign.

zorenathres
2013-07-17, 11:24 AM
Ah I see, and I agree with others that perhaps a hunt for godly artifacts and powers could help. Maybe she gains some mutations from certain artifacts, tombs, relics etc as well?

But I'm still not sure why she has to stop leveling up at E12 if it's a slay the gods kind of campaign.

As Kogak mentioned, things like the "Time of Troubles" from BG2 make gods more equatable to PC's in power. Though I have not decided on it, making the gods mortals makes my job a lot easier... While saving a few newly ascended gods for last.

Though I could run this as a standard E20 epic game, I have several reasons not to:

-My GF is relatively inexperienced & would not likely do well against epic 25+ challenges, the ELH is sorely outdated & the post-epic progressions are a headache, not to mention that I am the one doing all of the crunching.

-Telling this story does not require a "LV-20" character, an E12 PC can sill face ECL 20 creatures & not have such absurd stats that nothing else in the universe could harm them.

-E12 happens to be my own comfort level, E20 is too much for inexperienced PC's, with a wall of text for a char-sheet & without a thorough knowledge of the characters abilities, she will be spending too much time just looking at what her character might be capable of in a given moment (seen this too many times, PC's staring at their spell-sheet for an hour in the middle of combat). Too many options can slow the game down to a crawl.

-Maybe I have spent too much time doing E12, but in retrospect, whatever your game is set at, the power of that game always scales to the PC's. In an E12 game, all the obstacles PC's face are scaled to match them. Sure, the stat-block for a god may be slightly weaker, but when do PC's really get to see a stat-block in game that's not their own? Most players never know what (in exact numbers) they are facing unless they are looking in the manual.
Furthermore, with gestalt, access to a few rewritten epic feats, & enough mutations, a PC will still have the relative versatility of an E20 without the absurd statistics at those levels.
They can still increase their HP with mutations, along with everything else, just at a slower rate. Though they may lack a few of the LV-20 capstones, those within reason can still be accessed with homebrew feat-chains, really anything can be reached, just use slower progressions to reach that state.

Talakeal
2013-07-17, 02:35 PM
I had a campaign that involved wiping out the pantheon a few years back.

Basically, in my campaign world there is a treaty between the gods and demons that they will not directly interfere in the mortal world. The demons attempted to bypass this limitation by transferring their powers into mortal hosts who had previously sold their souls to the demons.

The gods found out about this scheme and were convinced to do the same, transferring their powers into mortal bodies to fight the demons. Once the demons were defeated and sealed away, the gods decided to remain on Earth and reshape the world into a perfect utopia which the now defeated demons (or human free will) would never spoil.

At this point the gods were still in mortal bodies, and the PCs, who had a powerful artifact weapon that destroyed the souls of those it slew, were able to engage the god's mortal forms in battle and permanently kill them.

Of course, I have crazy players, and the fighting between them in the aftermath (some wanted to take the gods place, others did not) left the whole thing with a bad taste in my mouth.

Aneurin
2013-07-17, 03:57 PM
However you do it, just be sure to remind her that it's tough to be a god (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYprdmE1dFc).

Just because it needed to be said :smalltongue:



...and because it reminds us all that there are more routes to godhood than simple combat. Well, it reminded me. Tricking a god out of their powers is a perfectly acceptable route to power, too. In fact, it may provide a decent base to the campaign; it begins with a contest between PC and a god, the PC wins, gets the powers, and sets off on a whirlwind adventure to a.) find out why someone/thing fixed the contest in their favour, and b.) defeat/survive all the other gods who think that the PC was the one who did the cheating.

ericgrau
2013-07-17, 04:03 PM
This sounds like a job for the power of plot. Make it possible with some artifact(s) and/or story points. And she's the evil mastermind trying to pull it off. Heck send in ragtag bands of adventurers to stop her. Pro-tip: Get rid of alignment right away. Have you done it yet? Why are you still reading this sentence? It'll prevent fights.

However this does seem like a great opportunity to bring in divine ranks to add flavor to her character. Likewise she might achieve them via plot goals rather than experience.

You might even be able to avoid epic levels this way, or limit them. Or you could at least avoid level 21+ player mechanics but provide epic foes thanks to the divine ranks.

zorenathres
2013-07-17, 05:11 PM
At this point the gods were still in mortal bodies, and the PCs, who had a powerful artifact weapon that destroyed the souls of those it slew, were able to engage the god's mortal forms in battle and permanently kill them.

holy smokes, I was planning something really similar to this, though its more like the soul-cube from Doom 3 with more artifacty powers & less a "weapon" in the conventional sense. That campaign sounds epic & its a shame the players could not come to an accord, I suppose I am lucky that its a solo run in that respect.


Pro-tip: Get rid of alignment right away. Have you done it yet? Why are you still reading this sentence? It'll prevent fights.

well I never really paid too much attention to Alignment anyway, & use it more as a guideline than a rule, is ths vecause they gain all their alignment subtypes when gaining divine ranks?