Fast Fighter Revision-- not tier 3, but within spitting distance

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is a new addition to my list of minor class tweaks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14855852#post14855852). I wanted to check to make sure I didn't break anything too badly, but didn't want to bump the whole thread again.

I know that this isn't going to take the fighter into tier 3, at least not really, but I hope that it'll move into upper-level T4, while remaining newbie-friendly.

Revised Class Skills: The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering), Knowledge (History), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex).
6+Int skill points/level.


Good Will save
When he takes any fighter bonus feat which grants a static bonus (such as Weapon Focus or Dodge), he may increase the bonus by 1/4 his fighter level
When qualifying for fighter bonus feats, he may ignore ability score prerequisites.
Gain a bonus to Strength checks equal to one-half your class level. (Note that the Barbarian gets to add his level)
At 10th level, you may make a full attack as a standard action.
Gain the benefits of the Zhentarim Soldier ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a).
Gain the benefits of the Dungeoncrasher ACF without giving up your bonus feats.
Gain the benefits of the fighter ACFs from the PHB 2 at one level lower than indicated, and without giving up bonus feats. They're also activated with a standard action, not a free action.

[Just to Browse]

Standard critiques: Can't fly, still has crappy saves, still laughed at by high-level closet trolls. These problems aren't fixed.

Unique critiques: 1) The bonus to attributes isn't high enough at low levels and unnecessarily large at high levels. Dex-pumping fighters who dump strength need to be useful mid-levels, and it's not until at least level 4 that the fighter's attribute bonus becomes even near meaningful. It should be larger at low levels and scale slowly, like attributes (and their associated requirements) do. 2) standard full attacks need to come earlier. I would suggest around level 6. 3) full attack AoOs are horribly broken. Do not do. 4) Why not just give him track, favored enemy, and urban tracking separately? It lets you separate the benefits from the feats properly (less dead levels, less crowded levels), doesn't require access to another source other than the SRD, and you don't need to reflavor it for people outside of Faerun.

[Haluesen]

Alright some pretty nice changes. Are you sure that links to the right thing? I don't see Zhentarim Soldier when I click that. Otherwise here are my thoughts.

Some of the skills are a little odd. Why Heal, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive? The Knowledge skills and Tumble are pretty good additions though.

I do like the improvements on static bonuses. I don't feel like it is too high really, but yeah you don't honestly get a benefit from it until 8th level. Not sure if that is fair or bad personally.

Qualifying for feats and bonus to Str checks is good. Nothing too much but fair little additions that open up some options.

Full attack as a standard action? Cool. I like the level for it, I think it works. Full attack during AoO's? Yeah that may be a little much. :smalleek:

Absolutely agree with the access to Dungeoncrasher like that. Let there be broken walls and traps making a path to our glory!

The last part, I don't really care for those ACF's so I guess it works, I wouldn't know very well. I also am not sure what Zhentarim Soldier does, so I cannot critique that.

Overall? Maybe minor tweaks but pretty good. :smallsmile: Keep up the nice work Grod.

Oh also one more thing, why must the fighter have to fly? There are other ways to deal with flying foes. Throwing/returning weapons, options for melee characters to have some side skill with archery, UMD and wands of dispel, I'm sure there are other ways someone on these boards can come up with.

[Just to Browse]

Wow I didn't even notice that name... Also I can't find Zhentarim Fighter/Soldier with a quick bing search, so we'll have to wait on Grod for that.

And my bad about the "can't fly" thing. You're right: he should just have a reliable way to deal with flying enemies: automatically good ranged attacks, grounding abilities, big jumps could all do it.

[Amechra]

Zhentarim goes:

3rd level: Skill Focus Intimidate
5th level: The function that makes people "Helpful" is extended to days in duration.
9th level: You can demoralize as a swift action.

The ACFs are in the Complete Valor Web Enhancement, if I remember correctly.

[Cheiromancer]

I like the increase to skills and skill points (although they make it very dippable), but I don't think that feats should scale with level.

I agree with Just to Browse's criticsm of the bonus to abilities needed to qualify for feats. Also, how would combat reflexes work? One extra AoO per point of Dex bonus, but is that your real Dex or your modified Dex? I suspect that it might be easier to give fighters a boost to point-buy at character creation.

Standard full attacks - isn't this the pounce ability? I'm very leery of full-attack AoO's.

A package of fairly 'weak' feats to be chosen at dead levels might work better than a reference to various modified ACF's. Run, Track, Endurance, Alertness, stuff like that.

I take it your goal is to make the Fighter class more attractive for the long haul. But it seems that it is also very attractive as a 'dipping' class. One level gives you great skills, a bonus feat, some ACF benefits, good hit points, good proficiencies and +1 BAB. Maybe that's not a problem for you.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Standard critiques: Can't fly, still has crappy saves, still laughed at by high-level closet trolls. These problems aren't fixed.
Two of those problems are too big for a quick fix to address. The third... I suppose a good Will save isn't out of the question.


Unique critiques: 1) The bonus to attributes isn't high enough at low levels and unnecessarily large at high levels. Dex-pumping fighters who dump strength need to be useful mid-levels, and it's not until at least level 4 that the fighter's attribute bonus becomes even near meaningful. It should be larger at low levels and scale slowly, like attributes (and their associated requirements) do.
Mmm. Good point. How about +level?


3) full attack AoOs are horribly broken. Do not do.
Fair enough.


4) Why not just give him track, favored enemy, and urban tracking separately? It lets you separate the benefits from the feats properly (less dead levels, less crowded levels), doesn't require access to another source other than the SRD, and you don't need to reflavor it for people outside of Faerun.
Huh? That's not... Zhentarim is intimidate stuff, not ranger stuff, if that's what you're thinking.


Alright some pretty nice changes. Are you sure that links to the right thing? I don't see Zhentarim Soldier when I click that.
It's in the download.


Some of the skills are a little odd. Why Heal, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive? The Knowledge skills and Tumble are pretty good additions though.
Heal for battlefield first aid, Diplomacy and Sense Motive so that fighters can be generals, knights, and other leader-type roles.


I do like the improvements on static bonuses. I don't feel like it is too high really, but yeah you don't honestly get a benefit from it until 8th level. Not sure if that is fair or bad personally.
Ooh, point. How 'bout adding 1/4 your level instead?


The last part, I don't really care for those ACF's so I guess it works, I wouldn't know very well. I also am not sure what Zhentarim Soldier does, so I cannot critique that.
They're not great, but they're easy. Zhentarim is, like I mentioned, a bunch of intimidate stuff-- it and Dungeonrasher are usually reckoned to life the fighter into T4 all by themselves.


Wow I didn't even notice that name... Also I can't find Zhentarim Fighter/Soldier with a quick bing search, so we'll have to wait on Grod for that.
Follow the link, download the enhancement, it's the last thing in the pdf.


I agree with Just to Browse's criticsm of the bonus to abilities needed to qualify for feats. Also, how would combat reflexes work? One extra AoO per point of Dex bonus, but is that your real Dex or your modified Dex? I suspect that it might be easier to give fighters a boost to point-buy at character creation.
The ability says "When qualifying for fighter bonus feats."


Standard full attacks - isn't this the pounce ability? I'm very leery of full-attack AoO's.
Pounce is full attack on a charge.


I take it your goal is to make the Fighter class more attractive for the long haul. But it seems that it is also very attractive as a 'dipping' class. One level gives you great skills, a bonus feat, some ACF benefits, good hit points, good proficiencies and +1 BAB. Maybe that's not a problem for you.
Eh, I'm not overly worried. 90% of that stuff was already there.



Also, note that this is a quick-and-dirty-fix-- I have a proper fighter fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276280)that I think addresses the issues this does not.

[Haluesen]

Ah alright, got that download now. And Zhentarim does seem like a pretty cool minor adjustment.

I still see Heal as odd for a fighter, I can't really see them worried about first aid in battle. But I do see quite what you mean about those social skills now, cool. :smallsmile:

Adding 1/4 your level, cool. Now I actually want Dodge. :smallbiggrin:

So overall yeah pretty cool. I might take a look at that other fighter fix, I'm on a sort of homebrewing kick myself, mostly looking but trying to make things too.

And also, Just to Browse, I just have to ask I was right? Really? :smallconfused: That doesn't happen to me often on these boards, so please forgive my surprise.