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Hawkflight
2013-08-02, 11:57 PM
Spellthief Mk. II


http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2009/364/0/f/Dragonborn_and_Spellscale_by_lucentshade.jpg

Hit Dice: d6
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known

1st| +0 | +0 | +2 | +2 |Sneak Attack +1d6, Spellgrace +1, Steal Spell (0 or 1st)| 3 | 3 | 1 |

2nd| +1 | +0 | +3 | +3 |Detect Magic, Steal Spell Effect, Trapfinding| 4 | 3 | 1 |

3rd| +2 | +1 | +3 | +3 |Steal Energy Resistance 10| 5 | 3 | 1 |

4th| +3 | +1 | +4 | +4 |Sneak Attack +2d6, Steal Spell (2nd)| 5 | 4 | 1 |

5th| +3 | +1 | +4 | +4 |Steal Spell-Like Ability| 6 | 4 | 2 |

6th| +4 | +2 | +5 | +5 |Steal Spell (3rd)| 6 | 4 | 2 |

7th| +5 | +2 | +5 | +5 |Absorb Spell, Discover Spell, Sneak Attack +3d6| 7 | 4 | 2 |

8th| +6/+1 | +2 | +6 | +6 |Steal Spell (4th)| 7 | 5 | 2 |

9th| +6/+1 | +3 | +6 | +6 |Spellgrace +2, Steal Energy Resistance 20| 8 | 5 | 3 |

10th| +7/+2 | +3 | +7 | +7 |Sneak Attack +4d6, Steal Spell (5th)| 8 | 5 | 3 |

11th| +8/+3 | +3 | +7 | +7 |Rechanneled Strike, Steal Supernatural Ability| 9 | 5 | 3 |

12th| +9/+4 | +4 | +8 | +8 |Absorb Spell-Like Ability, Steal Spell (6th)| 9 | 6 | 3 |

13th| +9/+4 | +4 | +8 | +8 |Sneak Attack +5d6, Steal Spell Resistance| 10 | 6 | 4 |

14th| +10/+5 | +4 | +9 | +9 |Steal Spell (7th)| 10 | 6 | 4 |

15th| +11/+6/+1 | +5 | +9 | +9 |Steal Energy Immunity| 11 | 6 | 4 |

16th| +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +10 |Sneak Attack +6d6, Steal Spell (8th)| 11 | 7 | 4 |

17th| +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +10 |Spellgrace +3| 12 | 7 | 5 |

18th| +13/+8/+3 | +6 | +11 | +11 |Steal Spell (9th)| 12 | 7 | 5 |

19th| +14/+9/+4 | +6 | +11 | +11 |Sneak Attack +7d6| 13 | 7 | 5 |

20th| +15/+10/+5 | +6 | +12 | +12 |Absorb Spell (immediate casting), Grand Larceny Arcana| 13 | 8 | 5 |[/table]
Class Skills (6 + Int modifier per level, x4 at 1st level): The spellthief's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis (Wis), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Int), Speak Language (none), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha)

CLASS FEATURES

All of the following are class features of the spellthief.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A spellthief is proficient with all simple weapons, plus three martial weapons of her choice. A spellthief is proficient with light armor but not with shields. Because the somatic components for spellthief spells are simple, a spellthief can cast stolen spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, a spellthief wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure.

Maneuvers: You being your career with knowledge of four martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to you are Circling Vulture (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10181158&postcount=11), Sacred Might (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Sacred_Might_Discipline), Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, and Tiger Claw. Once you know a maneuver, you must ready it before you can use it (see Maneuvers Readied, below). You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on the class progression table. You must meet a maneuver’s prerequisites to learn it.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even spellthief level after that (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), you can choose to learn a new maneuver or stance in place of one you already know. In effect, you lose the old maneuver or stance in place of the new one. You can choose a new maneuver of any level you like, as long as you observe your restriction on the highest-level maneuvers you know; you need not replace the old maneuver with a maneuver of the same level. You can swap only a single maneuver at any given level.

Maneuvers Readied: You can ready all three maneuvers you know at 1st level, but as you advance in level and learn more maneuvers, you must choose which maneuvers to ready. You ready maneuvers by exercising for 5 minutes. The maneuvers you choose remain readied until you decide to exercise again and change them. You need not sleep or rest for any long period of time in order to ready your maneuvers; any time you spend 5 minutes in exercise, you can change your readied maneuvers.

You begin an encounter with all your readied maneuvers unexpended, regardless of how many times you might have already used them since you chose them. When you initiate a maneuver, you expend it for the current encounter, so each of your readied maneuvers can be used once per encounter (unless you recover them, as described below).

Whenever you successfully make a sneak attack, you may automatically recover an expended maneuver. If you have total concealment or total cover from all enemies, you may instead recover three maneuvers as a full round action. You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance in the same round that you recover a maneuver, but any active stance you had remains active.

Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you. At 4th, 8th, 11th, 15th, and 18th level, you can choose additional stances.

Sneak Attack (Ex): A spellthief deals an extra 1d6 points of damage when flanking an opponent or at any time when the target would be denied its Dexterity bonus. This extra damage applies to ranged attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. It increases to 2d6 points at 3rd level, and then by an additional 1d6 every two levels after that. See the rogue class feature, page 50 of the Player's Handbook. If a spellthief gets a sneak attack bonus from another source (such as rogue levels), the bonuses on damage stack.

Spellgrace (Su): The spellthief gains a +1 competence bonus on her saves against spells at 1st level. This bonus improves to +2 at 9th level and to +3 at 17th level.

Steal Spell (Su): A spellthief can siphon spell energy away from her target and use it herself. A spellthief who hits an opponent with a successful sneak attack can choose to forgo dealing 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead steal a spell, or the potential to cast a specific known spell, from her target. If the target is willing, a spellthief can steal a spell with a touch as a standard action.

The target of a steal spell attack loses one 0-level or 1st-level spell from memory if she prepares spells ahead of time, or one 0-level or 1st-level spell slot if she is a spontaneous caster. A spontaneous caster also loses the ability to cast the stolen spell for 1 minute. If the target has no spells prepared (or has no remaining spell slots, if she is a spontaneous caster), this ability has no effect. A spellthief can choose which spell to steal; otherwise, the DM determines the stolen spell randomly. If a spellthief tries to steal a spell that isn't available, the stolen spell (or spell slot) is determined randomly from among those the target has available. In order to steal a spell, a spellthief must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level.

For example, a 1st-level spellthief with a Charisma score of at least 11 who uses this ability against a 1st-level sorcerer could choose to steal magic missile. Assuming the sorcerer knew that spell, a successful steal spell attack would eliminate one 1st-level spell slot and temporarily prevent her from casting magic missile. If the same spellthief stole magic missile from a wizard who had it prepared, the wizard would lose one prepared magic missile spell (but wouldn't lose any other magic missile spells she might also have prepared).

After stealing a spell, a spellthief can cast the spell herself on a subsequent turn. Treat the spell as if it were cast by the original owner of the spell for the purpose of determining caster level, save DC, and so forth. A spellthief can cast this spell even if she doesn't have the minimum ability score normally required to cast a spell of that level. The spellthief must supply the same components (including verbal, somatic, material, XP, and any focus) required for the stolen spell. Alternatively, a spellthief can sacrifice a stolen spell to recover any expended maneuver of the same level or lower. A spellthief must cast a stolen spell (or use its energy to recover one of her own maneuvers) within 1 hour of stealing it; otherwise, the extra spell energy fades harmlessly away.

As a spellthief gains levels, she can choose to steal higher-level spells. At 4th level, she can steal spells of up to 2nd level, and for every two levels gained after 4th, the maximum spell level stolen increases by one (up to a maximum of 9th-level spells at 18th level).

At any one time, a spellthief can possess a maximum number of stolen spell levels equal to her class level + her Charisma modifier (treat 0-level spells as 1/2 level for this purpose). For instance, a 3rd-level spellthief with 12 Charisma (a +1 modifier) can have two stolen 2nd-level spells, or one 2nd-level spell and two 1st-level spells, or any other combination of 0-level, 1st-level, and 2nd-level spells totaling four levels. If she steals a spell that would cause her to exceed this limit, she must choose to lose stolen spells sufficient to reduce her total number of stolen spell levels to no more than her maximum.

A spellthief can't apply metamagic feats or other effects to the stolen spell unless the specific spell stolen was prepared with such an effect. For example, a spellthief of 6th level or higher could steal a wizard's empowered magic missile, but only if she specifically chose to steal empowered magic missile. If she chose to steal an unmodified magic missile, she couldn't steal an empowered magic missile, a silent magic missile, or any other metamagic form of the spell. A spellthief couldn't steal an empowered magic missile from a sorcerer, since the sorcerer applies metamagic effects upon casting and thus has no prepared empowered magic missile spell.

This ability works only against spells. It has no effect on psionic powers or spell-like abilities (but see the steal spell-like ability class feature, below).

Detect Magic (Sp): A spellthief of 2nd level or higher can use detect magic a number of times per day equal to her Charisma bonus, if any (minimum 1). Her caster level is equal to her spellthief class level.

Steal Spell Effect (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a spellthief can siphon an active spell effect from another creature. A spellthief who hits an opponent with a sneak attack can choose to forgo dealing 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead gain the effect of a single spell affecting the target. If the target is willing, a spellthief can steal a spell effect with a touch as a standard action.

The spellthief can choose which spell effect to steal; otherwise, the DM determines the stolen spell effect randomly. If a spellthief tries to steal a spell effect that isn't present, the stolen spell effect is determined randomly from among those currently in effect on the target. A spellthief can't steal a spell effect if its caster level exceeds her class level + her Charisma modifier.

Upon stealing a spell effect, a spellthief gains the stolen effect (and the original creature loses that effect) for 1 minute per class level (or until the spell's duration expires, whichever comes first). If the spell effect's duration hasn't expired by this time, the spell effect returns to the creature that originally benefited from it.

A spellthief can steal the effect of a spell only if the spell could be cast on him by the original caster. For example, a spellthief couldn't gain the effect of an animal growth spell (unless the spellthief is of the animal type) or the effect of a shield spell (since that spell's range is personal). If a spellthief tries to steal the effect of a spell not allowed to him, the effect is still suppressed on the original target of the spell for 1 minute per spellthief class level.

This ability does not work on spell effects that are immune to dispel magic (such as bestow curse).

Trapfinding (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a spellthief can use the Search skill to locate traps with a DC higher than 20, and she can use Disable Device to bypass a trap or disarm magic traps. See the rogue class feature, page 50 of the Player's Handbook.

Steal Energy Resistance (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a spellthief can siphon off some or all of a target's resistance to an energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). A spellthief who hits an opponent with a successful sneak attack can choose to forgo dealing 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead temporarily gain resistance 10 to an energy type to which her target is resistant (or immune). If the target is willing, a spellthief can steal energy resistance with a touch as a standard action.

Simultaneously, the target creature's resistance to that energy type is reduced by 10 (to a minimum of 0). A creature with immunity to an energy type retains that immunity.

If her target has more than one type of resistance to energy, a spellthief can choose which kind to steal; otherwise, the DM determines the stolen resistance randomly from among those possessed by the target. If a spellthief chooses to steal a type of resistance that the target doesn't possess, the stolen type of resistance is determined randomly from those possessed by the target.

The resistance a spellthief gains from using this ability lasts for 1 minute. If the resistance is derived from a temporary effect (such as a spell), the stolen resistance disappears when the effect expires.

A spellthief can use this ability multiple times, but its effects do not stack unless they apply to different types of energy. For example, throughout a long combat, a spellthief might use this ability to gain resistance to fire and resistance to cold, but she could not use it twice on a creature that is resistant to fire to gain twice as much resistance to fire (nor to reduce the creature's resistance to fire by twice as much).

At 9th level, a spellthief can steal resistance 20 to an energy type by using this ability, and at 15th level she can steal immunity to an energy type.

Steal Spell-Like Ability (Su): At 5th level and higher, a spellthief can use a sneak attack to temporarily steal a creature's spell-like ability. A spellthief who hits an opponent with a sneak attack can choose to forgo dealing 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead gain one use of one of the target's spell-like abilities. If the target is willing, a spellthief can steal a spell-like ability with a touch as a standard action.

This spell-like ability can originate from the target's class, race, template, or any other source, and can be of any level up to a maximum of one-third the spellthief's class level. A spellthief can select a specific spell-like ability to steal; otherwise, the DM chooses the ability at random. If the ability has a limited number of uses per day, the target must have at least one such use left, or the spellthief can't steal the ability. If the target can't use its ability at the present time (such as a summoned demon's summon ability), the spellthief can't steal it.

A spellthief can use a stolen spell-like ability once. For all purposes (caster level, save DC, and so on), treat the spell-like ability as if it were being used by the original possessor of the ability. A spellthief must use the stolen spell-like ability within 1 minute of acquiring it, or it is lost harmlessly. Until the spellthief uses the ability (or until the minute elapses), the target cannot use the stolen ability.

Absorb Spell (Su): Beginning at 7th level, if a spellthief makes a successful save against a spell that targets him, she can attempt to absorb the spell energy for later use. This ability affects only spells that have the spellthief as a target, not effect or area spells. A spellthief can't absorb a spell of a higher spell level than she could steal with her steal spell ability (see above).

To absorb a spell that targets him, a spellthief must succeed on a level check (1d20 + spellthief class level) against a DC of 10 + the spell's caster level. Failure indicates that the spell has its normal effect. Success means that the spellthief suffers no effect from the spell and can cast the spell later (or use its energy to recover one of her own maneuvers) as if she had stolen the spell with her steal spell ability. Her normal limit of total spell levels stolen still applies.

At 20th level or higher, a spellthief can choose to use the stolen spell energy as an immediate action, either to recast the original spell or to recover one of her expended maneuvers using the stolen spell energy.

Discover Spells (Ex): A spellthief of 7th level or higher who steals a spell from a spellcaster with his steal spell ability automatically learns the names of all other spells prepared or known by the spellcaster that are of the same spell level as the stolen spell. This knowledge allows the spellthief to better choose which spells to steal on subsequent attacks.

Rechanneled Strike (Su): Beginning at 11th level, a spellthief can spontaneously channel stolen spell energy into her melee attacks. As a swift action, she can lose any spell stolen with her Steal Spell ability to gain a +4 bonus on a single attack or martial strike, as well as an extra 1d10 points of damage per spell level expended. Both bonuses can be applied only on an attack made before the beginning of the spellthief's next turn. For example, if she loses a 3rd-level spell slot or prepared spell, she gains a +4 bonus on an attack roll made before her next turn, and she deals an extra 3d10 points of damage if her attack is successful.

Steal Supernatural Ability (Su): At 11th level and higher, a spellthief can use a sneak attack to temporarily steal a creature's supernatural ability. This ability function's like the steal spell-like ability class feature, except she can use it to steal supernatural abilities instead.

Absorb Spell-Like Ability (Su): At 12th level or higher, a spellthief can absorb spell-like abilities. This functions as the Absorb Spell ability, except it works on spell-like abilities. She must still succeed on both the spell-like ability's normal saving throw, as well as a caster level check to absorb the spell-like ability.

Steal Spell Resistance (Su): Beginning at 13th level, a spellthief can use a sneak attack to temporarily steal some or all of a creature's spell resistance. A spellthief who hits an opponent with a sneak attack can choose to forgo 3d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead reduce the target's spell resistance by 5. The spellthief also gains spell resistance equal to 5 + her class level (up to a maximum value equal to the original spell resistance of the target). If the target is willing, a spellthief can steal spell resistance with a touch as a standard action.

The stolen spell resistance benefits the spellthief for a number of rounds equal to the spellthief's Charisma modifier (minimum 1 round) and then returns to the target creature. If the spell resistance is derived from a temporary effect (such as a spell), the stolen spell resistance disappears when the effect elapses. A spellthief can't use this ability on the same creature again until the creature's stolen spell resistance returns.

Grand Larceny Arcana (Su): At 20th level, the spellthief has exposed herself to so much magic that it suffuses her body, disturbing spells that would warp her mind or locate her position. She is now under a permanent mind blank effect. Furthermore, she can store stolen spells for up to 24 hours instead of a single hour, increasing the maximum duration that she can keep stolen spell effects, energy resistance, spell-like abilities, and spell resistance as well.


Final Notes:

Big shout out goes to Jarian, whose work served as a starting point for my own work on this class, and to Realms of Chaos, whose work served as a base for the capstone ability. Also to Playswithfire, who wrote the Circling Vulture discipline (among others), and whoever wrote the Sacred Might discipline. And finally, to Lucentshade, who drew the stunning picture you see up top. Let's have a round of applause for them!

Hawkflight
2013-08-03, 02:12 PM
This thread is now open for comments, critique, and PEACH.

To start the discussion off, I'd like people's opinion on a couple of abilities that fell to the cutting room floor, as it were. They are as follows:

Absorb Spell (Area) (Su): At 13th level or higher, a spellthief can absorb area spells using her Absorb Spell ability. She must still succeed on both the spell's normal saving throw and a caster level check to absorb the spell.

Steal Supernatural Ability (Su): At Xth level and higher, a spellthief can use a sneak attack to temporarily steal a creature's supernatural ability. This ability function's like the steal spell-like ability class feature, except she can use it to steal supernatural abilities instead. (I have added this as a class ability at 11th level.)

Also ... I feel a little weird about the way the Mage Slayer feats are laid out here. I have them coming it at levels 4, 8, and 12, but then nothing after that (particularly at levels 16 and 20). Does this feel weird to anyone else? Should I move these feats up or down the list? And if so, where to? (I have removed them as they were just pushing things over the top, clutter-wise and power-wise.)

Also, here's the original, for posterity:

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known

1st| +0 | +0 | +2 | +2 |Sneak Attack +1d6, Steal Spell (0 or 1st), Trapfinding| 4 | 4 | 1 |

2nd| +1 | +0 | +3 | +3 |Detect Magic, Spellgrace, Steal Spell Effect| 5 | 4 | 1 |

3rd| +2 | +1 | +3 | +3 |Sneak Attack +2d6, Steal Energy Resistance 10| 6 | 4 | 1 |

4th| +3 | +1 | +4 | +4 |Mage Slayer, Steal Spell (2nd)| 7 | 5 | 2 |

5th| +3 | +1 | +4 | +4 |Sneak Attack +3d6, Steal Spell-Like Ability| 8 | 5 | 2 |

6th| +4 | +2 | +5 | +5 |Discover Spells, Steal Spell (3rd)| 9 | 6 | 2 |

7th| +5 | +2 | +5 | +5 |Absorb Spell, Arcane Sight, Sneak Attack +4d6| 10 | 6 | 2 |

8th| +6/+1 | +2 | +6 | +6 |Pierce Magical Concealment, Steal Spell (4th)| 11 | 6 | 3 |

9th| +6/+1 | +3 | +6 | +6 |Sneak Attack +5d6| 12 | 7 | 3 |

10th| +7/+2 | +3 | +7 | +7 |Steal Energy Resistance 20, Steal Spell (5th)| 13 | 7 | 3 |

11th| +8/+3 | +3 | +7 | +7 |Sneak Attack +6d6, Rechanneled Strike| 14 | 8 | 3 |

12th| +9/+4 | +4 | +8 | +8 |Pierce Magical Protection, Steal Spell (6th)| 15 | 8 | 4 |

13th| +9/+4 | +4 | +8 | +8 |Sneak Attack +7d6, Steal Spell Resistance| 16 | 8 | 4 |

14th| +10/+5 | +4 | +9 | +9 |Steal Spell (7th)| 17 | 9 | 4 |

15th| +11/+6/+1 | +5 | +9 | +9 |Sneak Attack +8d6| 18 | 9 | 4 |

16th| +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +10 |Steal Spell (8th)| 19 | 10 | 5 |

17th| +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +10 |Sneak Attack +9d6, Steal Energy Immunity| 20 | 10 | 5 |

18th| +13/+8/+3 | +6 | +11 | +11 |Steal Spell (9th)| 21 | 10 | 5 |

19th| +14/+9/+4 | +6 | +11 | +11 |Sneak Attack +10d6| 22 | 11 | 5 |

20th| +15/+10/+5 | +6 | +12 | +12 |Absorb Spell (immediate casting), Grand Larceny Arcana| 23 | 11 | 5 |[/table]

Removed or Modified Abilities:

Arcane Sight (Sp): Beginning at 7th level, a spellthief can use arcane sight as a swift action a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). Her caster level is equal to her spellthief class level.

Mage Slayer (Ex): At 4th level, a spellthief gains Mage Slayer as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. She does not lose any caster levels as a result of this feat.

Pierce Magical Concealment (Ex): At 8th level, a spellthief gains Pierce Magical Concealment as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. She does not lose any caster levels as a result of this feat.

Pierce Magical Protection (Ex): At 12th level, a spellthief gains Pierce Magical Protection as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. She does not lose any caster levels as a result of this feat.

Discover Spells (Ex): A spellthief of 6th level or higher who steals a spell from a spellcaster with her steal spell ability automatically learns the names of all other spells prepared or known by the spellcaster that are of the same spell level as the stolen spell. This knowledge allows the spellthief to better choose which spells to steal on subsequent attacks.

For example, a 13th-level spellthief who steals disintegrate from an enemy sorcerer would also discover the names of all other 6th-level spells known by that sorcerer.

Lix Lorn
2013-08-03, 02:57 PM
This has way too much stuff.
If you compare it to swordsage, you have the same hit dice, skills, and maneuvers. And then you trade a handful of negligible abilities, plus Wis to AC for sneak attack and spellthiefing. Those scales have to be balanced.
I'd suggest lowering the amount of maneuvers gained, probably significantly.

Hawkflight
2013-08-03, 05:51 PM
I have edited the class to reduce sneak attack progression to 1d6 per 3 levels. I have also made the following changes:

Removed Arcane Sight.
Removed the Mage Slayer feats, possibly to be added in later.
Changed Spellgrace back to its RAW form, changed progression to 1/9/17.
Moved Trapfinding from level 1 to level 2.
Changed Steal Energy Resistance progression from 3/10/17 to 3/9/15.
Dramatically changed how Discover Spells works.
Added Steal Supernatural Ability at level 11.
Added Absorb Spell-Like Ability at level 12.
As always, PEACH.

Hawkflight
2013-08-04, 08:43 PM
IMPORTANT UPDATE! The Spellthief now requires an Int score of 10 + a spells level in order to steal spells of that level. For example, a spellthief with an Int score of 14 could not steal 6th-level spells. In exchange, a spellthief can now store a number of spell levels equal to their spellthief level + their Int modifier.

Dead_Jester
2013-08-04, 09:07 PM
Agree with Lorn, this has a lot of abilities, and really doesn't lost anything compared to a swordsage for what it gets. You also get a lot of extra utility on top of what the swordsage had. Admittedly, the Swordsage was the weakest of the 3 base initiators (3/4 Bab with no extra damage source, bad armour and hit dice and a not so great recovery system), but this completely obsoletes it (you get a bunch of skills, trap-finding, sneak attack and still get Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw, which by themselves made the Swordsage at least the equivalent of the Rogue in direct combat).

Also, Absorb Spell combined with the Diamond Mind save counters means that the class is, barring very unusual circumstances, all but immune to direct casting; either delaying Absorb spell or simply removing it would help alleviate this somewhat.

Something to consider could be offering two different paths of progression; one focused on sneak attack and stealing, giving improvements to the spell-stealing abilities things like steal supernatural and energy and spell resistance, and another based on absorbing things, which, instead of improving spell-steal, gives the ability to absorb spells.

Hawkflight
2013-08-11, 08:35 PM
Agree with Lorn, this has a lot of abilities, and really doesn't lost anything compared to a swordsage for what it gets. You also get a lot of extra utility on top of what the swordsage had. Admittedly, the Swordsage was the weakest of the 3 base initiators (3/4 Bab with no extra damage source, bad armour and hit dice and a not so great recovery system), but this completely obsoletes it (you get a bunch of skills, trap-finding, sneak attack and still get Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw, which by themselves made the Swordsage at least the equivalent of the Rogue in direct combat).

Also, Absorb Spell combined with the Diamond Mind save counters means that the class is, barring very unusual circumstances, all but immune to direct casting; either delaying Absorb spell or simply removing it would help alleviate this somewhat.

Something to consider could be offering two different paths of progression; one focused on sneak attack and stealing, giving improvements to the spell-stealing abilities things like steal supernatural and energy and spell resistance, and another based on absorbing things, which, instead of improving spell-steal, gives the ability to absorb spells.

Mind explaining? I mean, this class does lose a significant amount. It has access to fewer disciplines, no access to Desert Wind or Diamond Mind, and far fewer maneuvers known and readied than a Swordsage, as well as losing Quick to Act, the AC bonus, Unarmed Strike progression, and Sense Magic.

Yeah, Absorb Spell and Diamond Mind combo together, but you still have to dip another class for it, right? Like with a regular Spellthief.

And ... I really don't want to do two paths of progression. Making this class was hard and time-consuming enough, I don't relish the idea of doing it a second time.

Dead_Jester
2013-08-12, 07:57 AM
Mind explaining? I mean, this class does lose a significant amount. It has access to fewer disciplines, no access to Desert Wind or Diamond Mind, and far fewer maneuvers known and readied than a Swordsage, as well as losing Quick to Act, the AC bonus, Unarmed Strike progression, and Sense Magic.

Yeah, Absorb Spell and Diamond Mind combo together, but you still have to dip another class for it, right? Like with a regular Spellthief.

And ... I really don't want to do two paths of progression. Making this class was hard and time-consuming enough, I don't relish the idea of doing it a second time.

Losing Desert Wind (arguably the weakest discipline) isn't a big blow, and the Diamond Mind counters can be picked up with Martial Study. The reduction in maneuvers known hurts a bit, but with clever selection, it won't be an issue; maneuvers readied should not be an issue, as getting SA nearly all the time should be quite easy with Shadow Hand for the first round or so, and than flanking. The other Swordsage abilities aren't worth nearly as much as this class' abilities; Swordsages are already somewhat MAD as melee characters, so they can't really invest a lot into wisdom to get a lot of bonuses from their class abilities, and, even than, the difference isn't too massive. Quick to Act is good, but not that good.

As for making two progressions, I'm not saying that you should necessarily write a pile of new abilities, but rather split the amount of abilities the class now has into two paths, with maybe the possibility of getting the abilities of the other path put delayed.