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View Full Version : (3.X) (Item) Is this cheesy? (PEACH)



DracoDei
2013-08-05, 10:12 PM
Headband of Mind-Shielding
This continuous function item acts as per the second property of Protection from Chaos/Evil (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm)/Good/Law, slightly rephrased for clarity this give us: Blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for as long as the item is worn (and not suppressed, for instance by Dispel Magic, or Anti-Magic Field). If the item is removed or suppressed before the effect granting mental control ends, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This effect works regardless of alignment.
Faint Abjuration; CL 1st; Craft Wondrous Item, ONE of the following spells Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law OR Magic Circle Against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, 750 gp, 60 XP; Market Price 1,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.



If this provided all the benefits of one of the Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law then by THIS table (remembering the footnote) then it would be a 4,000 GP magic item. 4,000/3=1333.34 GP. I bumped it up to 1,500 for a round number, and because being immune to charm and domination is a pretty useful effect. That about right, or should it be even higher?

Erik Vale
2013-08-06, 03:12 AM
Given that it is 2000 for a level 1 spell constant, I think it should be bumped up to at least that from sheer usefulness, even if your not getting the immune to summoned creatures/ac bonus [AC bonus would probably be along the lines of +4000/3 however, making it approx 3500 with everything but immune to summons, but +2 AC against only 3 alignments].

Even then, I would consider a price hike, but I'll leave that to the more experienced.

TuggyNE
2013-08-06, 05:37 AM
I'm sorely tempted to recommend you price it at 4000 gp, flat. It's really good. Arguably, the spells it's based on are printed at too low a level.

Cheiromancer
2013-08-06, 08:06 AM
I don't think that protection from evil works the way most people think it does. "Mental control" is control exercised through purely mental actions. The words in the parentheses do not mean that other forms of control are also blocked; the parenthetical remarks are a non-exhaustive description of dominate person, which is blocked. Also blocked would be other spells and effects which references dominate person. Most of them would be either enchantment (charm) or enchantment (compulsion) effects, but not all (e.g. necrocrotic domination). For instance, charm monster does not allow mental control, and so would not be blocked. Neither does suggestion (it is not an ongoing effect, either).

Be that as it may, a headband that only blocks domination effects would be valuable, and 4000 gp might well be a fair price. Something that blocks all enchantments would be underpriced. It is like trying to price a use-activated true strike or wraithstrike item according the formula in the DMG.

edit: On the other hand, you could use a slightly discounted mind blank spell as your base spell. Mind blank also blocks scrying effects, but I think that would be only a small fraction of its utility. 10% discount, maybe? Even a 25% discount would result in a final cost of 90 000 gp or so.

DracoDei
2013-08-06, 09:17 AM
Given that it is 2000 for a level 1 spell constant,
... this is my fault for accidentally leaving out the link to the relevant table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues).

It actually varies with the base duration of the spell. This is sensible since something with a 1 round/caster level duration is more powerful of an effect than a similar level spell with a 10 minute/caster level spell of the same spell level. Apparently the default level is hours per caster level...

For a spell with a 1 minute/caster level you multiply by 2.

I think it should be bumped up to at least that from sheer usefulness, even if your not getting the immune to summoned creatures/ac bonus [AC bonus would probably be along the lines of +4000/3 however, making it approx 3500 with everything but immune to summons, but +2 AC against only 3 alignments].
Actually, the AC and Save bonuses only apply against ONE alignment.

Even then, I would consider a price hike, but I'll leave that to the more experienced.
EDIT: Yeah, I'll probably bump it up a bit (if I don't rewrite it, see below).

I'm sorely tempted to recommend you price it at 4000 gp, flat. It's really good. Arguably, the spells it's based on are printed at too low a level.
Well, defensive buffs tend to be at the same level as the lowest level spells they counter, and Charm Person is a 1st level spell.

Things are more complicated than that since Protection From <Alignment> also provides two or three other benefits, BUT only suppresses Charm/Dominate rather than stopping it outright.

An argument could definitely be made that both Protection From <Alignment> and Charm Person are too low of a level.

And an EDIT due to ninja-ing:

I don't think that protection from evil works the way most people think it does. "Mental control" is control exercised through purely mental actions.
Hmmm... It would appear to be very hard to tell, especially at first. Since "Mental Control" could refer to control OF the mind, or control BY the mind. Then we get this line from Protection from Evil:

If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature.
(bolding mine) Even this is a bit ambiguous to me, although it would SEEM to support your conclusion.


The words in the parentheses do not mean that other forms of control are also blocked; the parenthetical remarks are a non-exhaustive description of dominate person, which is blocked. Also blocked would be other spells and effects which references dominate person. Most of them would be either enchantment (charm) or enchantment (compulsion) effects, but not all (e.g. necrocrotic domination). For instance, charm monster does not allow mental control, and so would not be blocked. Neither does suggestion (it is not an ongoing effect, either).

Be that as it may, a headband that only blocks domination effects would be valuable, and 4000 gp might well be a fair price. Something that blocks all enchantments would be underpriced.
Yeah, but I was thinking it wouldn't block all enchantments (very few actually). A few samples of spells it WOULDN'T block by level:
0th:
Daze: Humanoid creature of 4 HD or less loses next action.

1st:
Hypnotism: Fascinates 2d4 HD of creatures.
Sleep: Puts 4 HD of creatures into magical slumber.

2nd:
Daze Monster: Living creature of 6 HD or less loses next action.
Hideous Laughter: Subject loses actions for 1 round/level.
Touch of Idiocy: Subject takes 1d6 points of Int, Wis, and Cha damage.

3rd:
Deep Slumber: Puts 10 HD of creatures to sleep.
Heroism: Gives +2 bonus on attack rolls, saves, skill checks.
Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
Rage: Subjects gains +2 to Str and Con, +1 on Will saves, -2 to AC.
?Suggestion?: Compels subject to follow stated course of action.

...I'll stop now.

Actually, now that I think of it, this was my original goal really. Something that would just shut out suppress Charm and Dominate.

Insanity,

It is like trying to price a use-activated true strike or wraithstrike item according the formula in the DMG.
Quite possibly.


edit: On the other hand, you could use a slightly discounted mind blank spell as your base spell. Mind blank also blocks scrying effects, but I think that would be only a small fraction of its utility. 10% discount, maybe? Even a 25% discount would result in a final cost of 90 000 gp or so.
See above about wanting to block suppress a much smaller set of effects.

Debihuman
2013-08-07, 05:23 AM
It's not so much as the item is cheesy as it is badly presented. Normal activation for a continuous use item is a standard action and it functions until removed. I tried to make it read a little smoother but it's still a bit awkward in spots. I also changed the format slightly using Pathfinder's format but 3.5 rules.

What does it look like? A little description is always nice.

You needn't say it is a continuously functioning item; all you need to say is that the item works until it is removed. I added how long it takes to put on and take off more as an example than anything else.

The correct term to describe the person is "wearer" or "owner."


Headband of Mind-Shielding
Aura faint abjuration CL 1
Slot Head Price 1,500 gp Weight

Description

Once donned, this headband blocks any attempt to possess the wearer or any attempt that tries to exercise mental control over the wearer (such magic jar, charm effects, and domination), until removed. It is a standard action to don the headband but it can be removed as swift action.

The headband's protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the wearer, but suppresses the effect for as long as the item is worn, as long, as the wearer is not targeted by a dispel magic spell or enters an anti-magic field.

If the headband is removed or suppressed before an effect granting mental control ends, the headband's owner is affected. Likewise, the headband keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is already in place. These effects work regardless of wearer's alignment.

Construction

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, one of the protection from chaos/evil, good/law spells or magic circle against chaos/evil/good law spells; Cost 750 gp, 60 XP

Debby

Cheiromancer
2013-08-07, 09:54 AM
Hmmm... It would appear to be very hard to tell, especially at first. Since "Mental Control" could refer to control OF the mind, or control BY the mind. Then we get this line from Protection from Evil:

If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature.
(bolding mine) Even this is a bit ambiguous to me, although it would SEEM to support your conclusion.

Yeah, you've captured the rationale behind my interpretation. I agree that "mental control" is ambiguous in the way you describe, but that the preferred reading would be "control BY the mind" as opposed to "control OF the mind", again for the reason you give. I also read "control" as meaning "ongoing control". Causing someone to become panicked is not a form of mental control (under either interpretation of mental control), since you can't direct their actions.

The question that I wrestle with is with charm monster. It doesn't give you the ability to control the subject of the spell with your mind; you have to communicate with them in a more mundane fashion, and maybe succeed in charisma checks and so on. But it does result in a form of ongoing control, since they are friendly and disposed to help you. So reading "mental control" as "control BY the mind" protection from evil doesn't suppress charm monster. Reading "mental control" as "control OF the mind" it might or it might not; it doesn't allow the emotions or attitudes of the subject to be changed, but it does give the control that follows from their being friendly to you. But while the friendly attitude might be the result of magic, the control is entirely mundane and shouldn't be blocked. (It shouldn't matter how they come to be friendly, after all). Unless it suppresses the friendly attitude caused by the charm, which I don't see as likely. Basically it depends on your answer to the following question: Does a protection from evil reverse the attitude change caused by a failed Will save vs. a charm monster spell?

To make a long story short, it is clear that a continuous item based on the second function of protection from evil would protect you from domination effects (including necrotic domination as well the Enchantment (compulsion) versions). But I think it is very doubtful that the item could protect from control that is based on a charm effect. That would cost extra.

DracoDei
2013-08-07, 12:31 PM
It seems very odd to protect against stronger effects but not weaker ones. Then again, I suspect that might be based on the mythology/religion that inspired Gygax and company when they created that spell decades ago?

In any case, blocking Charm Person/Monster (and Person more relevantly than Monster) is specifically what my intent was with this item. This item is supposed to be something a non-combantant king or adviser wears to prevent any (Heightened) Stilled Silent Charm Person shenanigans outright.

I could throw on a cost based on a fraction of Spell Immunity I suppose... bur it just rubs me the wrong way that you would be paying MORE for immunity to LESS powerful spells.

Current Thought: Ad Hoc it and call it 4,000 GP.