View Full Version : Wild West E6 in the Playground

2013-08-18, 12:04 PM
Hey everyone. This project was inspired by RFLS' Wyverns of the Wild West (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295916) game. Some of us felt like we should put a little something together to see if we can make a wild west system, so here we go.

First, we decided to use the class defense bonus variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm). Obviously, we'll have to adjust it for E6, but it's a good place to start. This is to make up for the fact that the classes will be largely restricted in their armor choices - it isn't really appropriate for a knight in full plate to be hanging out in the wild west, you know?

Second, we've also decided that vitality and wound points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm) would benefit a game of this kind. This variant rule is great because it makes things a bit more deadly, at least at first, and it provides greater verisimilitude - a grazing hit with a bullet will take some Vitality points, while a crit with a firearm (or any other weapon) is really going to do some damage.

Thirdly, we've decided to use pathfinder's firearm rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/firearms) as a base. However, many of us feel that the reload times are ridiculous, and that there should be a way (other than feats, even though feats tend to proliferate in an E6 game) to reduce them. The prices for guns and ammunition should also be readjusted, as firearms are to be a major player in this setting.

Fourth, we'd mentioned ritual magic, which I think is a lovely idea. Rituals will allow us to have things like permanent magical fixtures, more advanced magic items, etc., while still allowing us to balance spellcasters in their day to day role. We could use some help clearly defining and working up some ritual magic rules, though.

So then, what do I ask from the Playground? Well, we need some help coming up with our classes. We have some general ideas, as Fouredged Sword came up with a little list:

Gunslinger - Gun wielding warrior - cha focus.
Brave - Native weapon warrior - wis focus.
Medicine Man - Wis focused native healer.
Doctor - Int focused modern healer.
Scout - Modern OR native skillmonkey.
Hedge Wizard - Modern prepared arcane caster.
Witch - Modern spontaneous arcane caster.
Tinker - Int focused alchemy based caster.
Calvary - Armored mounted modern warrior.

So then! I now turn this to the playground - I've got a little bit of experience with homebrew, but this will be pretty much my first time working with E6. I look forward to any advice you guys can give, and any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks for reading, and let us know what you think! :smallbiggrin:

2013-08-18, 01:01 PM
i tend to disagree on the reload times being too long, the flint lock style early fire arms just plain take forever to reload, the steps are semi precise and have to happen in order for the weapon to be able to fire.

that being said if we go with the guns are everywhere setting style that we had talked about in the past thread, no reason most people wouldn't be using the advanced fire arms anyway, in which case all but the rifle have multiple rounds before having to reload so it lessens the issue.

if we are adjusting price ranges anyway we could add in multiple price points for the guns based on the number of shots it could hold at a time.

finally if we really want to get into reducing reload time, i had a thought for revolvers at least you could buy a number of quick load clips* (not sure their real life term) that hold 6 bullets pre loaded and all you have to do to reload is open it dump old ammo pup it in close the revolver keep firing. basically a person could have a certain number of these ready at a time, have a longer reload time on those individual clips but once they are loaded make it a swift/ free action to reload a weapon with it. if they run out of clips mid fight they have to go back to slow reloading that normally comes with it.

Fouredged Sword
2013-08-18, 01:22 PM
Concept didn't take off
- In a wild west game there can be a situation that happens before combat called a stand-off. This happens when combat begins with one or both sides ready and aware of the other, and when at least one pair of combatants are at close range of one of their weapons. This is called a standoff.

During a stand off characters may act normally, but everyone is aware of the opposing side is aware that a standoff is happening.

During a stand off, characters may take actions as normal, but combat will begin at any moment. Some actions create an opening for your opponent to act before you to deadly results. This is called triggering a quickdraw.

During a stand off, any movement other than five foot steps trigger a quickdraw. Drawing and or firing a weapon triggers a quick draw. Intimidate and bluff checks do not, unless they otherwise involve motion or drawing or aiming a weapon.

If a quickdraw is triggered, then a special round of combat happens. This round is much like a surprise round, but with some special rules. Only characters who are within their weapon's close range of an enemy can act, and they can take only a standard or move action. If they take damage before they are able to act in initiative, they loose their quickdraw action.

Characters who qualify for the quickdraw round roll initiative. The character who initiated the quickdraw with their action gets +2 to their initiative. Any character who chooses to take a move action rather than an attack action takes a -2 to their initiative.

All weapon attacks within the weapons close range are autocratically critical hits during a quickdraw round.

Once the quickdraw round is over, then combat continues as normal, with all remaining characters rolling initiative and rounds proceeding as normal.\

New feat

Hip shot
Prereqs - quickdraw, BAB +2
-During a quickdraw round a character can choose to take a penalty to their attack roll to gain a momentary boost in initiative. When they choose to make an attack roll during a quickdraw round, they can take a penalty up to their base attack bonus to their attack roll, and add it to their initiative for the round. After the quickdraw round, their initiative is returned to normal and they no longer take a penalty to attack rolls.

2013-08-18, 01:58 PM
Reserved for class information

2013-08-18, 02:00 PM
Reserved for new feats or skill use

2013-08-18, 02:08 PM
Reserved for magic and spells

2013-08-18, 02:10 PM
Reserved 4, just in case.

2013-08-18, 02:11 PM
As for any western game I suggest using some variation of iajitsu focus. It function as initiative for duels at noon as well as extra damage on the draw meaning duels will be faster, more tense, more dangerous and function differently to normal combat.

2013-08-18, 03:06 PM
Agreed. Lets call the skill Quick Draw. Dex based, do you think?

Also - do we want to do a consolidated skill list ala pathfinder, or do we want to go with the traditional 3.5 huge skill list? Personally, I prefer pathfinder's system as it allows skilled characters to have a wider range of skills instead of having to hyper-specialize in 3 skills just to do one thing, but its up for a vote.

Fouredged Sword
2013-08-18, 03:35 PM
I had a neat idea for a non-skill based quickdraw shown above. I will spoiler it and list it as not selected if you don't like it. The idea is to put a deadly first set of shots that you can ether attempt to draw faster or dive for cover.

2013-08-18, 04:37 PM
The first and most important thing we need to discuss is tone. What sort of tone do we want for this? Gritty or heroic? Because whatever mechanics we design should fit the feel (though luckily, I feel the vitality points method works well for both tones). If we choose a grittier game, we will want to focus on the power of critical hits to directly affect wounds, and the use of cover (Maybe cover gives you an AC bonus AND reduces the drit chance of a weapon, minimum 20). If we choose a more heroic game, we will want to look at other mechanics (I really like the idea of using Eberron style action points, with maybe some changes for something defensive, like the ability to reduce damage by 1d6, which would be very useful when low on vitality. We build this into the classes themselves to show luck. The lucky scoundrel style character can be a class built around interesting interactions with Action Points). Once we decide this, we can start making major mechanical decision like how to do quick draw and what exactly our classes are going to be

My opinion is go for a heroic tone, for two reasons. One, I feel it is easier to make a gritty game with a heroic rule set than it is to make a heroic game with a gritty rule set (because you can make a heroic game gritty by creating more difficult encounters, but in a gritty game where one crit can be devastating, it is much more difficult). Secondly, it comes down to how I like to GM. While I have no problem killing players, I try and make each death meaningful. Therefore, I would rather not have one single crit kill a player. If an encounter goes bad, I'd rather the death happen due to an attempt at heroism.

With skills, I much prefer Pathfinder's to 3.5, but I have another idea, inspired by 13th Age's backgrounds (but without the worrying 'players can choose backgrounds of very varying uses), called skill packages. The idea is, instead of having a list of specific skills, you have general skills like Cowboy, which will go something like this:

A cowboy works at a ranch, managing and protecting the cattle, including during the cattle drive during to market, where they would have to protect the cattles from rustlers, get them fed and prevent stampedes. Therefore, a cowboy is skilled with animals, both handling them and riding them. THe Cattle Drive also teaches them how to survive off the land, as well as using rope, especially for lassos.

The idea is simple. If you face a challenge, and you have a skill package that matches it (and they shouldn't be too explicit. Players can then justify 'as a cowboy, I should know about natural knowledge'. I made the Cowboy one like that just for ease of explanation). I think it helps characters be a bit more well rounded while having a specialisation, especially if you put a rule in where you can use half your skill ranks if the skill package only kind of applies, or something. Couldn't do Quick Draw as a skill, though. I like the idea of Fouredged sword, though I still need a proper read and think on it.

2013-08-18, 04:56 PM
Personally, I think I'd prefer to have Quickdraw as a skill - I was planning on having a gunslinger Archetype use it fairly extensively. Additionally, if every shot fired during a special action quickdraw were a crit, you'd have people trying to do nothing but set up quickdraw after quickdraw, and you'd lose the whole "epic gunfight" that is so common in the Western genre.

I second the pathfinder skill list, with the stipulation that skill's are chosen via "packages", like SecondRevan said. We should divy up the skill list into packages that make sense - like you said, Cowboy might have Handle Animal, Use Rope, Knowedge: Nature, Track, etc. It would give us a good way of differentiating what kinds of characters people would be playing, rather than what class they are. I like it.

Edit: I also second the Heroic gamestyle with a gritty tone. You can always make things grittier, but you can't make a super gritty game heroic (Call of Cthulhu, anyone?). I think this system would be more for epic fantasy that happens to take place on the frontier and wild west of a given setting. Our hero's should still be capable of super-human feats of daring, wit, conniving, and grit.

2013-08-18, 05:12 PM
Did not notice that Fouredged had auto crits. Like I said, I hadn't had a good look at it. We can have a class based around crits, if we are very careful, but no auto crits.

This should be able to support epic fantasy, but I think it should also be able to do the more mundane western things, just with a fantasy twist. For example, the gunslinger hunting down the men who killed his family, but the men are vampires, who may have changed his wife into a fellow vampire.

On your suggestion that the skill packages should have an actual list, instead of a simple guideline, how would you do skill points? My idea was that you put one point in the package as a whole, that effects everything. Would you keep that, because to me, it was the key part of the skill system, as it gave broad specialisation.

Also, if we use my system, how should skill points work? A single skill point is now a lot more valuable, and a class giving you 2 skill points is now a fortune. Should we have classes provide between 1 and 3 skills, with no int bonus, or make int the thing that decides skills?

2013-08-18, 05:15 PM
I agree on the critical hits thing. That doesn't make sense and doesn't add anything.

2013-08-18, 07:03 PM
Had a look at what I thought we should do with quick draw, and just rename Iajitsu Focus, and use dex. Attach it to a couple of skill packages, and allow items like special holsters to increase the Quick Draw skill. That's all that is needed

2013-08-18, 07:14 PM
Oh my. Oh my, oh my. I like this a lot.

As far as rituals go, are you planning on implementing the Incantation system? I think it might fit what you're looking for. It can be found in the Alternate Magic rules in both the SRD and Unearthed Arcana.

EDIT: I think I have a resurrection ritual based off of those rules saved somewhere; the DCs are relatively low, but there's a small chance that the person being raised will come back wrong (as in they get the Half-Zombie template) regardless of whether or not the ritual was successful. Would you be interested in it?

2013-08-18, 07:36 PM
Thank you very much for showing me that. It is exactly what I was thinking about when I suggested rituals. Then we just create a ritualist skill package full of the necessary knowledges and perform (oratory)

Also, I would love that ressurrection ritual. Fits this perfectly, in my opinion. Though which template is half-zombie? I can find several half undead ones, but none called half-zombie. And frustratingly, the closest match had a dex penalty and +1 level adjust, both things that we probably don't want for different reasons

I think if we focus on incnatations, we shouldn't need spells. My idea is that classes will have supernatural components, like wild shape (and I think Lay on Hands could very easily be refluffed as a nature spell), and have the primary spellcaster class be based on the artificer, so we have wandslingers to go along gunslingers.

Fouredged Sword
2013-08-18, 07:51 PM
I think that there should be day to day magic that people prepare and use like spells, but I think it should be pathfinder alchemist styled magic.

The original intent of the system when I first had the idea for the classes was that a practitioner ether had a fixed number of potion slots or fixed number of alchemy points at the start of the day. Then a number of potions could be made for use within 24 hours.

Then pair that with abilities that take more time, but are more potent. A doctor should get a first aid ability that heals his int in vitality points a number of times per day. Then he should get surgery, and be able to heal a number of wound points by causing vitality damage.

So a doctor could make some quick medicinal potions, maybe some buff potions, then use his medical knowledge to carry the brunt of the healing the group needs.

The Tinker class was much the same idea, but with offensive gadgets focused on battlefield control and damage. Where a doctor prepares a potion or ointment, a Tinker makes a one shot flamethrower (flaming hands).

2013-08-18, 07:55 PM
You just described the template; it's official name is the Gheden, though in its description one of the other names given is Half-Zombie.

If you don't want to use that, you could probably just replace that with a different potential punishment.

Gheden’s Awakening
Effective Level: 7
Skill Check: Knowledge (Arcana) DC 22, 7 successes
Failure: Backlash (6d6 points of damage and 1 negative level)
Components: V, S, M, F, XP
Casting Time: 7 hours
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous

This ritual has both the characteristics of a conjuration effect and a necromancy effect, but due to the profane magic used (and the fact that negative energy is initially used to channel an animus for the corpse before the soul is placed back within in) it is considered a predominantly necromantic ritual. After spending the first two hours embalming the corpse with special alchemical unguents, the caster begins to chant obscenities in the name of the demon-lord Orcus, begging him to bring the dead creature back to life.

In order for this ritual to be successful, the caster must use a body part coming from a younger relative of the deceased. This is meant to represent a grave sacrifice meant in exchange for the life of the deceased. The donor (whether willing or forced) has to be dead for the body part to work as a proper focus. Any creature who fails the ritual finds himself drawing the ire of Orcus rather than his help; upon a failure, the caster’s arms and legs are ripped open as though assaulted by a savage beast, a small piece of his life-force is drained by the demon-lord.

This ritual does not always bring the deceased back the way they were before. Any creature that is raised from the dead using this spell suffers 1d4 points of ability damage and 1 point of ability drain to their highest mental ability score. In addition, there is a 20% chance that the target of this incantation comes back “wrong;” instead of rising as they were before their death, the target instead rises as a gheden, also known as a “half-zombie.” Due to the relatively easy accessibility that belies the high risk of the ritual, this incantation is often referred to as “Gheden’s Awakening” or “Fool’s Resurrection.”

Focus: Severed body part from a creature related to the target by blood. The creature in question must be at least five years younger than the target that is meant to be raised. Using a vital internal organ gives the caster a +1 circumstantial bonus to all checks made to determine the success or failure of the ritual. Using a body part from a still-living relative results in a -4 penalty to all checks.

Material Components: Special alchemical unguents worth 200 gp, and a mostly-intact corpse to use as the target.

XP Component: 200 XP

2013-08-18, 09:00 PM
Ritual looks great. With the template, what I would love is one that had no level adjust. While I have had a look at the gheden and it doesn't look too powerful, I don't think the ritual should reward the player mechanically with a free level adjust for the spell going (partly) wrong. Also, it would be cool to have a template that had level adjust +0 so you could start as a half-zombie, without having it affect your leveling up (especially as gheden won't offer a lot). The idea of a gunslinger out for vengeance after his entire family was killed, him included, who now he stalks the land half undead is a compelling one.

Fouredgedsword, I should have thought about the alchemist. Fits perfectly with my spellslinger idea. It works beautifully. Actually, now that I am reminded of the alchemist, I'm not as opposed to a prepared caster, flavored correctly. Prepares spells in his wand, which is used as a weapon? Sounds cool

My worry with the Doctor is what it does in combat. Using the alchemist as a base to create a class that gives out healing potions and buffs is cool. However, it needs something else. Both the mutagen and the acid bomb from the alchemist kind of fit, but only kind of. I could see both in a Fantasy Western setting, but more as a thing that happens once or twice, not as a central aspect (especially as the mutagen is a better fit for the 'savages'). I love the rest of your ideas, though. All of the out of combat Doctor stuff is brilliant.

With day to day spellcasting, I would say cantrips should be very easy to access to. I need to think about how other spells should enter, as not everything can be done with rituals (charm person is the perfect spell for certain style of villains, for example). I have some ideas floating around, but nothing concrete yet

2013-08-19, 12:54 AM
Okay, sorry for a late reply - I got called in to work earlier than I was planning.

Skill packages - I was thinking we would use these instead of class skills. We'd keep skill ranks and such, and your pool of "class skills" would be drawn from your backround packages instead of a set list per class. Then you'd still get your skill points per level. This is advantageous because it still fits the rules of 3.P, its just a little tweak.

Incantations - I love them. I love the raise dead ritual, though I think a different failure option is something we could work on.

Day to day magic - agreed on the alchemist inspiration. Perhaps re fluff the bomb as an explosive? Make it do half bludgeoning and half fire damage? I really like the idea of wandslingers to go along with gunslingers.

A suggestion of my own - I love ToB. It's my favorite 3.5 book. As such, I'm partial to initiators. How does everyone else feel about giving gunslingers and other mundanes maneuvers (home brew and official) to give them options like their spell casting brethren?

2013-08-19, 01:04 AM
Gun-fu isn't really a staple of the wild west gunslinger, just speed, accuracy, and guts.

Edit - Also, what spellcasting brethren? I thought we were getting rid of spellcasting as a thing?

2013-08-19, 01:23 AM
Hmm. True. How about making at least one class an initiator? I'm leaning away from gun fu, btw. More of like, "shoots people in a line instead of 1 target" or "add some lightning damage". Things like that, mostly, to give them ways to overcome common problems that ranged characters have.

And aren't we keeping some spellcasters? Alchemist people and I'd say at least a shaman that draws from the Druid list with a nature focus would be appropriate.

2013-08-19, 04:08 AM
With the right type of maneuvers, we could make gunslinger an initiator. Will help make it distinct from the other gun classes we will have, like the scoundrel (which is what I'm currently calling the class that will be based on luck). Let's build our own disciplines, so that it is a western initiator, and not gun kata. How about one based on quickdraw and trick shots, one based on sniping and making the 'impossible shot' and one more general fighting one

With shaman, or whatever we call it, I would rather avoid having it be a spellcaster. Instead I want it to have its magic built into the class with wild shape (or possibly the shapechange ACF from PHB 2) and lay on hands (easily refluffed as natural instead of divine). If there is truly a need for a spell on the druid's spell list the shaman needs, we give it a spell like ability, but use incantations as the primary way shamans do there spellcasting (which fits the source material).

However, while there won't be any other divine casters (though maybe a doctors healing class if we can work it out), there will be a some arcane casters. My idea is a prepared caster that casts evocation spells and other similar spells through their wand, being a wand slinger as opposed to a gunslinger. And, while at first I didn't want it, I believe we need a spontaneous support caster for spells like charm person and illusion spells. Charm person is a great spell for villains, while illusion spells and the like can actas the magical equivalent on the hero throwing the rock to distract the bandit. When I have the time, I'll make a first draft of their spell lists.

On skill packages, the way I envisioned them was that you would spend one skill point to get a +1 on all skills, so that you are well rounded at your speciality, instead of having your having too many class skills that your character should have but doesn't (especially as some skills, like Perform (Oratory) will be useless in the rituals package until, all of a sudden; you need it in a specific incantation). Individual items and stuff will only affect a single skill in the package, and each skill will have a slightly different values because of your ability scores, but that is my concept (you don't have to agree,though)

On the doctor having explosives, two things. One, why would a doctor have explosives? Two, is it really Western to have a man running around with bombs as a primary heroic archetype? I can imagine this class as a combat medic, who can both fight and heal, but we need an interesting fighting mechanic for it. We could have some sort of precision damage mechanic, maybe can give up their move action for the ability to aim at vital areas for precision damage, based on knowledge of anatomy, though if anyone has better ideas, I want to hear them

Lastly, one thing I noticed. Guns everywhere makes guns simple weapons, so all our civilised classes can use guns. While I think everyone can use pistols, maybe we should make other types of guns martial?

Fouredged Sword
2013-08-19, 06:29 AM
I think we should use weapon groups. Keep them simple, but classes get access to several groups with options between the two groups.

Simple - Clubs, knives, ect - everyone gets these

Pistols - One handed black powder weapons

Rifles - Long range two handed black powder weapons

Shot Guns - Short range scatter guns

Swords - Calvary Swords, rapiers

Native - Native weapons (bows, tomahawks, spears)

Explosives - Non-class based explosives

For example a Gunslinger would get automatic access to all gun skills and any one other weapon group.

A doctor on the other hand, would pick any one weapon group.

A tinker would get explosives and any one weapon group.

- Thoughts on the medicine man

Native weapon prof + 1 chosen prof, 1d8 HD, 6 skill points per level, 1/2 bab.

Lay on hands based on wisdom. Can heal class level X wisdom mod vitality points per day.

Herbal pouch - Gains alchemy for a small list of buffs, healing, and divination spells, wis based

Wild empathy - Use wisdom and class level to influence wild animals.

Animal companion - Gain animal companion per the druid class feature.

- Thoughts on the doctor

Any one weapon prof, 1d6, 6 skillpoints per level, 1/2 bab

Vital aim - gain 1d6 sneak attack at 1st and 3rd level, can take a -2 penalty to attacks to do so even if the enemy retains their dex to AC.

First aid - The doctor can heal his Int mod in vitality a number of times equal to his class level per day. This is a full round action.

Surgery - A doctor can perform surgery. This deals a number of points of damage to the target, but heals wound points. The target takes up to the doctors class level in damage, but heals half the damage dealt as wound points. If the target has vitality points left, this is a good thing, though a target can be too wounded to survive the procedure. The doctor must make a DC 20 treat injury check to perform surgery. If the check fails the target takes the damage, but receives no healing. '

Modern medicine - A doctor can prepare a limited amount of alchemy to heal and buff.

2013-08-19, 10:59 AM
I like the idea of the doctor being the sneak attack class (with a full sneak attack progression), instead of the rogue/scoundrel/whatever. It makes sense. We could even include the ability to make a knowledge check to sneak attack creatures with strange physiology (i.e., immunity to sneak attack).

I think the doctor should be d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, though. I see doctor as more of a skills class than a magic class.

Also, from a balance perspective, the medicine man is way better than the doctor as you presented it.

2013-08-19, 11:44 AM
Okay yeah, Doctor as a skilled combatant and field medic is legit. We'll go with that one. I like the idea of a knowledge check to SA normally immune creatures - great idea.

Skill packages - Okay, now I see what you meant. It's a cool idea, actually. We could give people a really broad range of skills that way, which is always good from both a DM and Player perspective. So the way I'm seeing this, someone like the Doctor would have like...4 skill points per level, while the Gunslinger might have 1 or 2, but by spending that one point they still get good at 4 or 5 things. I like it.

Weapon Groups - Agree on these. I've always thought they were a better idea than single weapon proficiency, and they fit thematically with the Wild West idea.

Homebrewing our own Maneuvers - So, Black Rain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5471505#post5471505) is already made for us, and it's the "Iron Heart" of ranged disciplines. Everything it does is completely mundane, and is based on skill. I also really like Falling Star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10707), though it's a bit more magical. Though we could always refluff it as a gunslinger using alchemical ammo. Maybe Gunslingers can choose a single discipline out of a few, and we tie that to any Archetype's that we come up with? Like the Steel Eyed Man would get Black Rain, while the Alchemical Desperado would get Falling Star? I dunno, something to think about.

Shaman being a pseudo-spellcaster with incantation and supernatural abilities - Okay, I getcha. So we're going for more of a Skinwalker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin-walker) feel with these guys? Its cool with me - supernatural natives fits in with the genre.

2013-08-19, 01:59 PM
Some thoughts, not fully fleshed out:

Gunslinger -

Quickdraw: Precision damage class, based on Iajitsu Focus mechanics.
Sniper: Precision damage class, based on precise aim. Most likely requires a move action to line up a deadly shot. Deadly Shot could be the name of the class feature (3d6 bonus damage over 6 levels).
Shootist: Initiator class.

Brave - Native weapon warrior - wis focus.

Berserker: Rage progression, ala barbarian.
Warrior: Initiator class, probably Tiger Fang focused.
Hunter: Ranged focus, with precision based damage, based on the CA Scout class feature.

I think all the full BAB classes should gain an additional combat related ability, either rage, precision damage, or ToB maneuvers (or something equivalent). They should generally not have more than 4+int skill points, or more than 1 good save.

Fouredged Sword
2013-08-19, 02:42 PM
More class ideas

Scoundrel - Low blow extra damage mechanic and Int based skill monkey

Cavalier - Mounted str based warrior with charge based extra damage.

Scout - Skirmish based skill warrior.

Gunsmith - Gadget based gunslinger with enhanced personal weapon.

2013-08-19, 04:47 PM
Really liking these ideas guys. I'd post some of my own, but I'm away from my PC with my notes on it.

I like the idea of different combat focuses with the different archetypes. And I agree with the idea that every class needs something other than "I full attack". Limited maneuvers and combat options are always a good thing.

I am, however, a fan of giving mundanes a decent amount of skill points. This gives them something to do other than shooting people. Or, perhaps we should make sure that the fighting types have some way of using those fighting abilities outside of combat? The Blast Lock deed (pathfinder gunslinger) is a good example of something like that.

2013-08-19, 05:13 PM
id think something we could look at, is from a combat point of view for each class, while most people fire guns the same way, not everyone would try to doge the same way.

could do things like the counter maneuvers form ToB,

have tougher classes do things like get DR,

more agile ones ducking and rolling for increased ac. (think scout move x distance get increased armor maybe?)

tactile characters doing things like getting bonus cover bonuses or benefits from attacking straight out.

finally have your brute who is gonna be going straight at them instead of getting benefits have something like a suppressing effect as it fires at targets decreasing their ability to strike back.

i think that could differentiate them a bit. yes no?

2013-08-19, 05:27 PM
When I get the time, I'll post my class ideas. I'm aiming for something more interesting than I full attack

2013-08-19, 10:16 PM
When I get the time, I'll post my class ideas. I'm aiming for something more interesting than I full attack

Just remember in the E6 setting we've been talking about a full attack (without strange weapons and skills) will generally be one shot, 2 with full bab classes, or dual wielding chars.

so a "full attack" is nothing really too special.

not saying that different options is a bad thing, just that when a normal attack range is so small we have to be carful with what those interesting parts are, lest we create somethig too out a wack compared to normal shooting

2013-08-19, 10:32 PM
Full attacks are still quite relevant because of two weapon fighting.

2013-08-20, 12:44 PM

Sniper: Precision damage class, based on precise aim. Most likely requires a move action to line up a deadly shot. Deadly Shot could be the name of the class feature (3d6 bonus damage over 6 levels).


What about having them add bonus damage just as a Rogue's SA (which may be what you already have there)? And this Deadly Shot can be disrupted by dealing damage to the Sniper, similar to a caster's spells. They have to make a Concentration check the same way... and you could even have a new feat that works like Combat Casting, called Deadeye (after Red Dead Redemption).

2013-08-20, 12:51 PM
My thought is, with a sniper, it matters less that the opponent is flatfooted, and more that you have time to aim. By requiring a move action, you eliminate the possibility of two-weapon sniper (which would be dumb), enforcing the archetype, and also balance the precision damage similarly to the Skirmish ability, except instead of actually moving, the move action is spent to aim (also justifying the better damage progression than Skirmish has).

A level 6 sniper could gain the ability to aim once per round as a swift action, allowing them to make one Deadeye Shot and one normal attack per round, once they get +6/+1 BAB.

2013-08-21, 02:45 PM
For the sniper ability, why not take the route of diamond eye mannuvers, full action to steady self / hold breath/ study target then make a concentration check for the attack if it hits threaten critical and deal precision damage?

tack on that it requires a two handed fire arm and we pass up the two weapon sniping and multiple attack options. As well as thematically match a sniper with a rifle idea.

2013-08-23, 07:49 AM
Here's my list of classes

Gunfighter - gun initiator class
Scoundrel - luck based gunfighter. Use either rerolls or Eberron style action points
Soldier - designed more towards rifles etc than pistols. Where stuff like sniper goes
Wandslinger - Arcane caster that prepares spells into wand, then 'gunfights' with a wand
Medic - mix precision damage with ability to prepare heals and buffs
Arcanist - spontaneous caster that uses more support magic
Cavalry Officer
Brave - Native initiator class
Shaman - supernatural nature class. Not a spellcaster, but has things like wild shape

2013-08-23, 08:45 AM
Here's my list of classes

Gunfighter - gun initiator class
Scoundrel - luck based gunfighter. Use either rerolls or Eberron style action points
Soldier - designed more towards rifles etc than pistols. Where stuff like sniper goes
Wandslinger - Arcane caster that prepares spells into wand, then 'gunfights' with a wand
Medic - mix precision damage with ability to prepare heals and buffs
Arcanist - spontaneous caster that uses more support magic
Cavalry Officer
Brave - Native initiator class
Shaman - supernatural nature class. Not a spellcaster, but has things like wild shape
My bolding. Why not break apart something like 'Sharpshooter'?
Or, maybe archetypes like in Pathfinder?

2013-08-25, 11:46 PM
My bolding. Why not break apart something like 'Sharpshooter'?
Or, maybe archetypes like in Pathfinder?

i say combine the soldier, and the gunslinger in this list add in the sharp shooter and just call it the soldier, then going like a ranger where they pick a combat specialization at level 1 and get varied abilities from it.

would save in writing as they most likely will have the same BaB/ saves from my points of view

3 paths:
sharpshooter (ranged rifle play)
run and gun (multiple close range pistols / shotguns)
stand and shoot (mix of pistol/ rifle play more tank oriented skills)