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Nashaal
2013-08-20, 01:22 PM
Okay, so 4 friends and I all recently started our first dungeon and the DM decided to create a player character to enjoy the first campaign too. We all agreed seeing as it was our first experience with D&D. He chose to play a changeling assassin who is a vital player to our group when it comes to dealing damage and for the most part, has remained impartial. I am playing a half-elf with 17 passive perception(we are still working out the kinks with this skill), and after an encounter, we all stood directly by a statue in a premade campaign, little did we know, that statue had moonstone eyes worth 100gp each. I rolled a perception check on a doppelganger that we had killed, I then moved to use perception on another statue, the other players checked out an alter with their religion checks seeing as I take care of the perception checks as my skill is the highest. But the second I start to check the statue without the moonstone eyes, the DM says "while you are all distracted, I approach this statue and examine it, I discover is has moonstone eyes. I roll a thievery check and manage to slip one of the eyes out without anyone noticing. I pocket that moonstone eye before removing the other eye." He goes on to reveal the second eye to the group, keeping the first for himself and pocketing the 100g from our first adventure. When my friends and I try to check why there is only one eye his ridiculous bluff skill as a changeling lets him get away with it. When asked why my passive perception didn't reveal anything, he says passive perception is, in his mind, used for small details like noticing the statue, but not that its eyes lit up with reflected light.

So who is in the right? He used metagame knowledge and took advantage of us while we were distracted to get his DMPC an extra 100gp.

Also, how should we deal with the situation to avoid it happening in the future?

Thanks for your time.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-08-20, 01:35 PM
In a game like D&D, playing a PC (not just a DMPC, but a full-on PC played by the DM--there's a subtle distinction) is asking for trouble. A DMPC is a fleshed-out character designed to help out the party and to give them advantage. A DMPC's motivation is to go to town on obstacles so that the players aren't overwhelmed.

A PC's motivation is generally more selfish. When played by the DM, who has metagame knowledge and control over the framing of the plot, that's a recipe for disaster.

It sounds like it could've been an honest mistake, so I'd talk through it and move along. The DM shouldn't be playing a PC as well. It's like trying to fairly play chess with yourself, only there's even more to know about in the game and less ways to know it.

So...see if you can show the DM why this is a problem, and drop their character off somewhere to do stuff. If you rotate out DMs, they can always pick the character back up and join the party as a PC player.

Nashaal
2013-08-20, 01:41 PM
So what would your suggested course of action be? Should the money be divided up between the 5 party members like it should have been once I had been allowed to roll a perception check on it. Or should we let the DM's PC keep the 100 gold?

Also, did my passive perception do nothing to reveal the moonstone eyes to my character so I could have pointed it out to the other players when I was standing not 1 square away from the statue while we all chatted?

How does passive perception work exactly? I was reading up on it in the player books but it really doesn't say much at all and is left to be loosely understood at best.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-08-20, 02:00 PM
I would discuss the situation with the players and find an agreeable conclusion. The most important priority is to make sure it doesn't happen again; 100gp in the grand scope of the game isn't as much of a big deal. (Heck, I wouldn't be averse to suggesting "the changeling splits and takes the gp too" so that the game can move along.)

Passive Perception works like regular perception--instead of rolling Perception, you assume that you're able to take a slightly-less-than-average result of 10 on your die, instead of constantly rolling whenever you're in a scene.

If you're in a situation where you have time to look around and notice things, you automatically notice anything with a DC that falls beneath your passive Perception. In this case, if the DC was 15, for example, you would notice that. (The DM should keep track of passive Perception scores for this reason.)

So passive Perception lets you notice any details with a DC lower than (or equal to? I don't remember if 4E does "equal to" for skills) its rating. If you didn't notice the eyes with your passive Perception, that means the doppelganger would've had to roll at least an 18 on their Perception check to notice them.

(In fact, in an "opposed roll" situation like this, I would say that to spot something before you spot it, the PC would have to beat your passive Perception with a Perception check.)

Long story short: passive Perception is just like normal Perception, only it's what you use all the time. You roll Perception if you're examining something in greater detail, or if you don't have time to casually and carefully look at it.

Nashaal
2013-08-20, 02:10 PM
So after an encounter ends, I would instantly know everything about that room that falls under my passive perception? And if I failed to glean anything from an object, I would then roll to try get a higher perception?

I know 100gp wont be much in the long run, if divided among the players, it would have only been 20gp each. It isn't that he got the 100 gold that annoys me so much as the fact that he knew about the statue and took advantage of me searching elsewhere first to pocket the profit.

So if passive perception works the way you say, I would have noticed the eyes on the statue by standing beside of it outside of an encounter while we discussed the doppelganger correct? That way his meta-game knowledge would have been nullified and his bluff wouldn't have worked considering I would have seen two eyes on the statue?

Thanks for your help, it is greatly appreciated.

kyoryu
2013-08-20, 02:29 PM
I don't know about the passive perception giving you all details under it - it's generally used in ambushes and the like to avoid die rolls and giving away that there *may* be something happening.

I don't know that it *doesn't* or *couldn't* give you all the details, though :)

At any rate, the DMPC seems like the bigger issue. DMPCs are problematic enough without having one that is actively acting against the party's best interests. If your whole group is bothered by this (and I assume they are), I'd have a talk with the DM and explain why this bothers you, and work out what you all think some reasonable limitations on the DMPC are.

The fact that it was just 100gp this time isn't really the issue. 100gp isn't a big deal. The issue is how big will it be *next* time, and the time after that, and after that.

If you can't, ditch him and have the DM rebalance the encounters.

neonchameleon
2013-08-20, 03:50 PM
This. The big problem is that the DM is playing a DMPC who isn't a pure support character. Everything else is gravy.

Ashdate
2013-08-20, 04:07 PM
I think it's important as the DM to understand that it's not really about entertaining you. It's about entertaining your players first, and you (a distant) second. I understand there are some circumstances (the number of players) that have him playing one, but unless having the assassin is vital to the party's success (which would honestly be the first for a 4e assassin /rimshot), he should provide a warm body in combat and that is about it.

I would heavily suggest turning the Assassin into a companion character (basically like a monster, so a lot less complicated than a PC character), or having someone else take over DMing. Even if the offense is pretty minor - 100g is chicken scratch in 4e's wacky adventurer economics - he should decide if he'd rather be a player or a DM. If it's the latter, then he's got enough ways to "hog the spotlight" that don't require having a PC.

Nashaal
2013-08-20, 08:01 PM
Thanks for all the input guys,

I will have to talk with the DM about his character, now on to the part of my question that has yet to be answered relating to passive perception.

I asked "So after an encounter ends, I would instantly know everything about that room that falls under my passive perception? And if I failed to glean anything from an object, I would then roll to try get a higher perception?"

"So if passive perception works the way you (CarpeGuitarrem) say, I would have noticed the eyes on the statue by standing beside it outside of an encounter while we discussed the doppelganger correct? That way his meta-game knowledge would have been nullified and his bluff wouldn't have worked considering I would have seen two eyes on the statue?"

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-08-20, 08:14 PM
You have to actively search something for further details to roll a Perception check.

(Grain of salt: it's been a while since I played 4E. I don't remember how the book's text goes, exactly, on this.)

It's a bit like the Take 10 rule found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm); they just rolled it into a very specific use. If there's any pertinent details about something with a DC that your passive perception beats, those are things your character picks up on.

You're talking about spotting the specific detail that a statue has eyes which are made of valuable moonstone. This is actually something the DM should have plotted out in advance, assigning it a DC to be spotted. But if the DM didn't assign a DC, I think it's a better idea not to try and leverage the power of passive perception; it works best as a way of avoiding traps and spotting people, since then you have a concrete number to check against.

I wouldn't press this particular issue. Rather, I'd get on the same page with everyone about the skill, and about the DM's PC. For future reference, passive perception basically replaces your standard Perception rolls, unless you stop to examine something out of the ordinary.

Nashaal
2013-08-20, 08:28 PM
Okay, sweet. Thanks everyone for all the help.

Alejandro
2013-08-20, 08:45 PM
Nothing stops your PCs from asking the DMPC to leave, in character.