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Altair_the_Vexed
2006-12-19, 08:32 AM
I'm constantly trying to make a darker, more medieval D&D game, with witchburnings and ignorance and injustice and all that lovely stuff. But it's kind of tough - mainly:

How does one introduce superstition and fear of the arcane into the D&D world?

We players are relatively enlightened, have the tools of science at our disposal. The characters in the game have experience of goodly wizards and priests and the like...

I've already scrapped Paladins and pushed all the "Truth" and "Alignment" divination spells up one spell level, so as to make good and evil harder to detect.

What else can be done to make D&D commoners and nobles alike afraid, suspicious and superstitious?

Kesnit
2006-12-19, 08:51 AM
I'm constantly trying to make a darker, more medieval D&D game, with witchburnings and ignorance and injustice and all that lovely stuff. But it's kind of tough - mainly:

How does one introduce superstition and fear of the arcane into the D&D world?

We players are relatively enlightened, have the tools of science at our disposal. The characters in the game have experience of goodly wizards and priests and the like...

I've already scrapped Paladins and pushed all the "Truth" and "Alignment" divination spells up one spell level, so as to make good and evil harder to detect.

What else can be done to make D&D commoners and nobles alike afraid, suspicious and superstitious?

You could remove "Truth" and "Alignment" spells all together. Or houserule them so they don't always work (i.e. Roll a % If the roll is 01 - 75, the spell works. 76-00, it doesn't. Only you know the roll. You tell the player what the spell reported, true or not.)

Take a hint from the Dark Ages and have demons/devils living in this world, disguised as humans/elves/whatever. Combine with what I said above, there is no way for the players to know FOR SURE that the old man living alone is just an eccentric, not a demon.

Altair_the_Vexed
2006-12-19, 09:35 AM
Yes, infernals living in the Prime Plane will help... I've already been assuming this! We must be on the same track.

I like the idea of houseruling the detection spells - maybe make them subject to Bluff / Sense Motive resolution. Maybe actual infernals and priests of Evil dieties might add their level or HD to the Bluff, because their Evil Power makes them more deceptive. Might that work?

I was thinking also of having an approved and recognised School / University of Magic for Wizards, with uniform robes for graduates (almost like an old fashioned teacher's graduation gown being the badge of education) - so that Sorcerer and other (unregulated) arcane casters would be feared: Who knows what dark powers they might wield?

Sahegian
2006-12-19, 10:06 AM
You can always make the character's experiences with wizards and priests and the like not so pleasent. Have the church and the first few wizards the players meet give them difficult tasks with the promise of great rewards and then don't deliver. I'm a big fan of making the players do some pain in the butt quest for the church and then have the priest give them the thanks of his god and a completely inadequate reward.

I also like manipulative tasks. For instance some wizard sends you on a task to kill some vile creature only to have the players feel the backlash of the angry tribe that worshipped said creature. Also just telling your players that the world is untrusting of magic can go a long way if you're players are very into RP.

Altair_the_Vexed
2006-12-19, 11:55 AM
You can always make the character's experiences with wizards and priests and the like not so pleasent. Have the church and the first few wizards the players meet give them difficult tasks with the promise of great rewards and then don't deliver. I'm a big fan of making the players do some pain in the butt quest for the church and then have the priest give them the thanks of his god and a completely inadequate reward.

I also like manipulative tasks. For instance some wizard sends you on a task to kill some vile creature only to have the players feel the backlash of the angry tribe that worshipped said creature. Also just telling your players that the world is untrusting of magic can go a long way if you're players are very into RP.

Yes... but...

I really want to have a setting and "house rules" that can be handed to other gaming groups and be played without my having to explain myself, so that we're all playing in the same world with the same sort of feel - like Eberon or Forgotten Realms. It's easy to just explain a flavour, face to face - much harder to build it into the setting.

What I'm puzzling about is hard rules fixes, or specific flavour fixes that can be reflected in the setting. Example: I have set up an Inquisition of the state religion, so people are scared of the consequences of embracing other faiths.
I've also limited the availability of magic items and reduced the number of spellcasters in the demographics.

What's really bothering me is how to mechanically reflect superstition... Should I adjust NPC reaction according to spellcaster level?
How can I reflect the fear reaction - NPCs are likely to call the Witchfinder once the Sorcerer has left, but will do anything the arcane bully says while he's there. How do I turn that into a rule?

I like to RP stuff like this most of the time, but I also want to create consistent rules for when I give my setting to other people to play.

Oeryn
2006-12-19, 12:10 PM
I'm actually running a game like this, right now. What I did was build into the history of the world a great war, about 60 years before the game started. Magic was used by the bad guys, mainly. Animate Dead, Domination, all of the more "distasteful" spells. The clergy rose to power, aiding the side of Good, and when the war was won, they used their newfound popularity to propagandize (not sure that's a word...) against magic, playing up the worst things about it (ie, divine power is granted to those who are disciplined and devout, arcane magic is available to any madman who picks it up, etc.). Basically, like others have said, the Dark Ages, except that the "witchcraft" is real.

It's taken a few modifications, though. I've completely dropped alignment from the game. No one has an alignment, so all those spells that affect it are gone, too. Part of superstition is suspicion, I think, and the fact that you can't just cast a spell and know what someone's like, deep down, helps a lot with that.

I also pared down the pantheon a TON. I have three basic gods, a good god, a neutral "earth mother" type, and an evil Temptress. Obviously, the "good" god is the main power right now, and having one Church allows me to swipe ideas from the Inquisition, the Salem Witch trials, and other religious movements, to really make the superstition and fear more "real" for the characters.

I'm really pressed for time, right now, and this isn't very eloquent, but it's worked out really well for my game. We're about thirty pages into our second game thread, and there've been no major problems. I just ran the party into the first bit of "magic" their characters have seen, and they've reacted perfectly, confusion mixed with revulsion and a little bit of fear. Heck, they've gotten so far into it, they're worried that the barbarian's rage is a little too suspiscious for their tastes.

And as Sahegian said, just setting it up, and telling your players what you're tryin' to do goes a long way, if they're into RP.

Altair_the_Vexed
2006-12-19, 12:19 PM
Thanks...

Most of these suggestions are things that I've already done - set up the right history, reduced the pantheon to a minimum, tweaked alignment divination (I don't want to throw the system out completely, it's a handy shorthand for NPC and PC behaviour)...

So... Should I adjust NPC reaction according to spellcaster level?

How can I reflect the fear reaction - NPCs are likely to call the Witchfinder once the Sorcerer has left, but will do anything the arcane bully says while he's there. How do I turn that into a rule?

Oeryn
2006-12-19, 01:07 PM
I'm not sure HOW you turn that into a hard rule. I usually just handle it through the story, and people's reactions, but that's my style. I'm not generally inclined to codify everything, but different strokes, and all that. I can't really help in the "crunchy" department.

But I'd say, from a story standpoint, give 'em a few examples, before you throw 'em into something. Let 'em witness a "witch-burning", or how the general populace runs in fear when they see a spell go off. It'll set the tone, and let 'em know what's in store, should they decide to pop off a Fireball in the middle of town. It won't necessarily be a "rule", because different towns are bound to react slightly differently, but it'll let your players know that the rest of the world takes it pretty seriously.

Sahegian
2006-12-19, 01:16 PM
Assuming magic is rare, distrusted, and misunderstood it seems very odd that a local tavern wench is going to be able to gauge how powerful a sorcerer is and react accordingly. Having magic abilities isn't outwardly apparent in most cases.

If you just threw a fireball into the group of children gathering outside the inn, then I could understand the negative reactions. However, just sitting down to have a mug of ale doesn't reveal your magical nature unless you require some kind of facial scarring or inkwork that is easily visible to the average onlooker.

Edit: Sorry for any missing words. My hands and brain arn't syncing up today for some reason.

Oeryn
2006-12-19, 01:25 PM
That's an excellent point, as well. Which leads to another interesting scenario.

Depending on just how superstitious your townsfolk are about magic, they could string up some poor guy who just happens to wear robes and have a bunch of weird charms and talismans. They don't even have to be magical. It would kinda reinforce to the party that these people don't fool around when it comes to things arcane...

Altair_the_Vexed
2006-12-19, 03:22 PM
Okay - that sounds like a couple of "No" votes for the adjusting NPC reaction according to caster level...

What about casting a spell in the presence of NPCs forcing a reaction as though a Diplomacy check roll of 1 minus spell level had been made (using the "Influencing NPC Attitudes" table)?
That way it is likely that an undiplomatic caster might find people more hostile to her than prior to casting a spell. I'm thinking of the power of the spell being inversely proportional to the fear instilled by it - but circumstance bonuses and penalties can of course be applied if spells are less obvious, or more flashy. The university gown that I mentioned above would give a caster a circumstyance bonus to that "roll" - graduates of a regulated academy are seen as more trustworthy.

Were-Sandwich
2006-12-19, 03:51 PM
they could string up some poor guy who just happens to wear robes and have a bunch of weird charms and talismans. They don't even have to be magical. It would kinda reinforce to the party that these people don't fool around when it comes to things arcane...
Chav-linchings! I like your style my friend!

Altair_the_Vexed
2006-12-19, 04:26 PM
Chav-linchings! I like your style my friend!

Does cheap sportswear count as "robes"..? :smallbiggrin:

I think that in a world where there really are Wizards, and they're on "our side", people would string up those who didn't wear robes, but had magic powers.
Of course, this could vary from town to village to thorpe - different attitudes in different communities... Can I make a rule for that? A random factor..? Probably not.
Bah.

Oeryn
2006-12-19, 04:35 PM
I saw something you may be overlooking. Not all higher-level spells "look" more magical than lower level ones. If you base whatever check you end up going with on spell level alone, it might screw with the believability. Especially if someone gets lynched for something more subtle (say, Invisibility), but another person gets away clean, even after launching a Magic Missile in the town square.

That being said, I don't really have a better "hard" alternative to suggest. Maybe some sort of system, giving penalties to spells that are particularly flashy, or offensive?



Chav-linchings! I like your style my friend!

:biggrin: Nothin' beats a good lynching for no reason. In D&D, anyway...

Yakk
2006-12-19, 05:18 PM
Have the conventional assumptions of the players about the world be wrong.

Sure, they know how this world works. But in a fantasy world...

First, the world is not euclidean. You can't draw it on a map. You can have a desert that takes 1 week to travel all the way around, and 2 months to cross, at "the same speed".

Places where mankind dominates are more euclidean than other places. The hills, mountains, seas, and deep forests are, effetively, a different plane of existance that just touches ours.

Elemental spirits, minor Demons, Devils -- are everywhere. In Human lands, they are usually hidden. Sometimes they pretend to be people, usually travellers -- so travellers are not to be trusted. Sometimes they set up a fake village, so strange places are not to be trusted.

Making deals with such spirits is a fast way to gain temporal power. In general, the fastest way to gain magical power is by making a deal with a fiendish being. So most reasonably high level casters are sacraficing babies for more magical power.

Little folk exist, hidden in every home. They are hard to detect. They have minor magical abilities (invisibility), but their greatest power is the ability to curse. Don't piss them off too much.

Similarly to the wilderness on the ground, the air above is the celestial realm -- flying will get you to the plane of air. If you can fly, you want to stay low, and avoid the spirits. The first time they fly more than 30 feet up, have them be attacked by an invisible stalker.

Clouds have castles on them, and contain entire kingdoms. That is where the Storm Giants live. Their drums are the thunder.

Rivers are the bodies of great water elemental spirits. Lakes are Leviathan.

Get rid of most divination spells that don't connect you to some spirit. These spirits are cantancrous and give vague answers, and often don't answer the question you asked of them.

"Pure" Divination spells should require sacrafice. In order to cast detect evil on someone, you might need a finger from them -- and even then it doesn't always work.

Lesser Divination spells, like Detect/Read Magic, might require 1 HP worth of blood from the caster.

Take a page from Cthulu -- while the above is just the first layer. Benieth the relatively mundane goblins, there lies the darkness hidden in every corner. A world of terror unimagined, held back by the puny inability for the human mind to comprehend the true nature of reality. Creatures exist in every shadow that could tear your mind to shreds, if you where only capable of seeing it. Great beings who sleep endless sleep, their dreams more real than reality, dead beyond mortality. And with strange eons even death may die.

True divination is difficult in such a world, because when you detect evil, you can feel it. Everywhere. In the shadow behind the door, in the wind that blows on your hair, in the dust that blows in your eyes. Greater evil than any man is capable of, and everywhere. Worse -- by extending your perception, you leave yourself open to attack.

Science? What use is rational thought in a world that is not rational. The water wheel works not because of mechanics, but because the blood of the virgin under the foundation stone pleased the great river spirit. Please the spirits, or you will be taken down by them.

Altair_the_Vexed
2006-12-19, 05:45 PM
I saw something you may be overlooking. Not all higher-level spells "look" more magical than lower level ones. If you base whatever check you end up going with on spell level alone, it might screw with the believability. Especially if someone gets lynched for something more subtle (say, Invisibility), but another person gets away clean, even after launching a Magic Missile in the town square.

That being said, I don't really have a better "hard" alternative to suggest. Maybe some sort of system, giving penalties to spells that are particularly flashy, or offensive?

...snip...


That's precisely why I mentioned using circumstance adjustments for flashy / non-obvious spells.

Of course, offensive, attacking (or apparently attacking) spells used on allies of NPCs are going to get a negative reaction without having to resort to any rule mechanic. There may be a bad reaction to a spellcaster if he saves the village by fireballing the attacking goblinoids - but there will certainly be a bad reaction if he attacks the villagers themselves. No need to roll for that!

Yakk's suggestions of imposing superstitious fantasy as reality on the world is good - but I'm not going to use it myself. I'm interested in playing on a dark ages psychology. I want ignorance to drive fear and superstition, and I think that won't work fit if the facts match the fears.

Rama_Lei
2006-12-19, 07:52 PM
Have the arcane casters be branded, make some form of underground master society. The commoners might interpret the mark as a devil sign.

Leather_Book_Wizard
2006-12-19, 08:12 PM
Consider giving people who fear the arcane a superstition bonus of some kind. Maybe a +2 to saves against spells or something.

ghost_warlock
2006-12-19, 08:25 PM
Heh. You could always use these rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm) and these rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm). Sounds like you're really interested in a campaign in this setting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravenloft).



The Dark Powers are a malevolent force who control the Demiplane of Dread. Their exact nature and number are purposely kept vague, allowing for plot development in accordance with the Gothic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_novel) tradition of storytelling—where the heroes are frequently outclassed and outnumbered by unknowably evil forces beyond their control.

There's a couple adventures you can download for free to read here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads) (caution: not 3rd edition).

Altair_the_Vexed
2006-12-20, 03:40 AM
Thanks Ghost Warlock!
I've looked at Taint and Sanity, and Ravenloft - Taint will be making it into my games in selected scenarios, but I'll be leaving sanity out. As I'm making my own setting, Ravenloft is a source I might plunder, but I'll not use it as it is. The Fear, Horror and Madness rules might help...

I'm noticing that most of the replies on this thread are suggesting just to RP the fear and superstition. I've always been of the opinion that PCs are the exception to the norm, so PC attitudes can be largely whatever the players want (within reason). It's the general reactions of the mass public that I'd like to fill with flavour.

What fears and superstitions work in D&D?
I've been thinking about making certain animals sinisterly ominous - so that encounters with the undead are usually preceded by crows, and people fear them as a result...

Neek
2006-12-20, 05:40 PM
Altair,

There are other things that can be done than just RPing it out. Like you suggest, link an animal with the undead. (Personally, I'll have my players wake up on an island crawling with ghasts and there's not a single live animal on the island--that's a way to build it!)

I've been toying with the idea of expanding the ideas of planes and having outsiders play a more active role. Spellcasters are contacted, bribed, manipulated into either side; why not? You leave decision making in the hands of a player, but he's faced with the idea... join the devil and he a more powerful you makes? Or cast down the demon and find the pressure of the underside build--a great way to build an adventure when ideas are running low and levels are running high.

You could also create Inquisitor prestige classes that have detection spells and binding spells as well. You can have priests make magical items that detect magic and evil (or taint), i.e. have crosses that glow. If you want hysteria, then put the characters in a campaign where they witness or take part in the trial of a "witch," an adept being tortured for her wickedness.

Winged One
2006-12-20, 06:05 PM
If you have access to Tome of Magic, I suggest adapting the Witch Slayer PrC to kill mages rather than Binders. If you want to fool truth divinations, just make the False Lie spell from Complete Mage extra-common.