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Khantalas
2006-12-21, 06:06 AM
I can't be the only one who finds Erfworld absolutely hilarious, right?

I mean, the teddy bears and elephants...

They should have cutesy names of their own.

NOTE: Could the two discussion threads be merged? Pretty please?

Drakuul
2006-12-21, 06:07 AM
10 is up.


And really getting into it's stride.

I wouldn't want to fight the cloth golems....

Drakuul
2006-12-21, 06:08 AM
You got there 1 minute before me with the discussion thread :)

And no, you're not the only one - I love it.

squeakyreaper
2006-12-21, 06:11 AM
Bwears and Ewephants?

And I didn't know Trolls could count.

Shakalooloo_Doom
2006-12-21, 06:19 AM
Livingston..?

Emperor Demonking
2006-12-21, 06:35 AM
Wow, I really like this one.

The Giant
2006-12-21, 06:53 AM
Threads merged!

Sebastian Bux
2006-12-21, 06:59 AM
Alright .. I've given this comic 10 issues before commenting...

Erfworld is really quite terrible. It suffers from really poor writing. The story is all over the place and the chacter development is non existant. Nothing makes sense to me. It lacks the true wit and charm of OOTS.

If there was one thing I could say that was positive about it, it would be the artwork. I actually love the art style. The characters and environs are wonderfully drawn. It's a shame such great panels are ruined by a story that goes nowhere. Where OOTS is clever and funny, Erf is just boring and fractured.

I will say that it does feel like a good comic is in there somewhere, but I don't think it's full potential has been realized yet. Actually, I'd settle for someone realizing it's most basic potential. That would be nice.

Anyway, I've probably only got about a few issues left of this thing before I abandon it completely. Hopefully it won't come to that.

Sebastian

Xaspian
2006-12-21, 07:00 AM
Bwears and Ewephants?

And I didn't know Trolls could count.

Giwaffes?

And it's a Twoll, remember. Different thing :smallbiggrin:.

And is that an invisi-otter/ferret/panda I see? Can't wait to see them in combat.

One wonders why the stwawb'wy motif. Presumably the company symbol...

Sebastian Bux
2006-12-21, 07:03 AM
One more thing ... now that I'm thinking about it ...


I wouldn't want to fight the cloth golems....

CLOTH GOLEMS IS FUNNY! WHY ISN'T THAT IN THE COMIC! Seriously, your heart is in the right place, but....

Maxymiuk
2006-12-21, 07:07 AM
Orly! Yarly! Lol <--- I wouldn't want to be attacked by that.

Also, is it me, or does the gwiffon look like a marshmallow peep?

And people, Erfword is a pretty casual comic rife with internet memes, absurdity, and surrealism (at least as I view it). Stop taking it so seriously.

Shadow of the Sun
2006-12-21, 07:13 AM
You know, it really annoys me when people write something off when they haven't even seen enough to truly get to grips with the material. How can the plot be all over the place when we have only seen two aspects of it? Would you stop reading a normal comic just because four pages in it cut to a different scene? It doesn't have as good humour as OotS, but that is because it is a primarily story comic- that and you do not get some of the better references. It has next to no character development? We have only seen 10 pages, and we haven't seen all the characters yet! The first pages of any writing are normally meant to introduce characters so we can see how they will develop later on. We are not meant to have the characters develop immediately, when the full setting hasn't even been explained yet! OotS was easy to pick up because it is a gag-a-day comic with a storyline behind it, Erfworld is harder to pick up because it is a story comic with gags meant to be in the background. From what I have seen, Erfworld is going to be an interesting comic with a good storyline. All of you that are writing it off before you have even got the background info, you are people who were expecting something different than what you were told to expect.

Hart av Srednak
2006-12-21, 07:15 AM
I've liked erfworld so far though it's just getting started.


Erfworld is really quite terrible. It suffers from really poor writing. The story is all over the place and the chacter development is non existant. Nothing makes sense to me. It lacks the true wit and charm of OOTS.


Yes the story it's seems to be over the place. But those threads will be tied together. Since it's new comic I think that it has been written longer than where we're now. There seems to be a plot not just new idea for every page.

And it's very different from oots. Not just that it takes it's place in strategy games not rpgs. Before you say anything about character development take a look to first ten pages of oots. Those consist mainly funny D&D jokes. Now that the real character development has occured it's easy to look back and remember that they were different party then. Oots had only one story line at beginnig (party) fast it got also another one (:xykon: ). Now it will be very complex if you start where we're now. Or started couple weeks ago when not-Nale was hitting :haley: and that his look-a-like was in jail with this greenskin.

I like this story, even though rhytm is different. I like its drawing too and I loved those cloth golems.

Nikolai_II
2006-12-21, 07:21 AM
Livingston..?

Jimmy Hoffa disappeared under curious circumstances, and is as such a good command word for things going away.

By the same logic, David Livingston had been lost, but was once more found by the reporter Henry Morton Stanley. ("Mr. Livingston, I presume") Anyway, good jokes ;)

charles
2006-12-21, 07:22 AM
Try reading the first 10 OoTS strips and tell me how wonderful the character development and plot is with only those to guide you.

Sure enough, the first 10 OoTS would win out over the first 10 ERFWORLD strips, but they try for a joke every strip while ERFWORLD builds it over time.

We probably won't have any good feeling about the storyline and depth until about strip 30.

Gri
2006-12-21, 07:53 AM
Lawll.

Those souramanders sure look sour. :D

GKBeetle
2006-12-21, 08:03 AM
Wow, this is the first strip out of this series that I really thought was awesome. I loved seeing those Cloth Golems. They were hilarious. Also, the battle scene was great with the gwiffon just swooping in and eating the twoll, I think. Plus the Orly attacks with the Yarly and LOL responses was hilarious. Definetly, the best comic so far. Keep up the good work.

Khantalas
2006-12-21, 08:08 AM
The first ten strips of OotS show us, in the field of character development, that Elan is an idiot, and V uses big words quite often. Not much else. Not even a story. Admittedly, it makes you laugh, but you couldn't tell what it would turn into - the brilliance we love today.

Compare this to Erfworld, which has at least some story, shows us the basic personality of four characters, and only has less humor overall.

I used to read EGS (update the comic, Shive!), and also read Dominic Deegan, Ctrl-Alt-Delete and User Friendly. And Half-Wit and Legendary. The last three have humor in almost every page, but the first three don't. Still, all are good comics, IMHO, in their own way.

I think that some people expect Erfworld to be similar to OotS, because they're on the same site. Why? If they were going to be similar, we wouldn't need Erfworld, would it. The comics cater (?) to different people, and it's a good thing. If it turns out to be bad (which I hope won't happen), we will blame the Giant for his bad choices, and it will be over.

Just my ranting, as usual. Ignore this piece of text.

ObadiahtheSlim
2006-12-21, 08:13 AM
The peep made me crack up. Its hillarious.

ImperiousLeader
2006-12-21, 08:21 AM
Interesting. I'm still having trouble deciphering the rules of Erfworld, I'm used to Oots's D&D rule-based humour. That said, I do love the artwork.

SITB
2006-12-21, 08:56 AM
Bwears and Ewephants, oh my.
Couldn't resist.

On another note, why is a giraffe a cloth golem? It's more useless than owlbears, at least a teddy bear can ,y'know, attack without falling down.

Erloas
2006-12-21, 09:21 AM
Maybe I'm just jaded by clever funny, but I don't find most of the "comics" or running "jokes" on the internet funny at all. For the most part they follow the same philosophy of joke telling most of the TV and movie "comedies" follow. Which is stupid humor at best, and I'm definately not a stupid humor sort of person, there are some exceptions but only in the right context and usually when surrounded by clever humor most of the time.

Right now Erfworld is still a bit undecided, there is some clever comedy in there and there is also some stupid comedy. So far the stupid comedy seems to be winning out, though that could very well change with development. Seeing as how its hard to go a day without running into stupid comedy on the net the last thing I want is to have a comic that recycles all that comedy that wasn't even funny in the first place.
There seems to be a fair amount of clever comedy, and it probably does outnumber the stupid comedy, but the stupid comedy stands out a lot more. Especially since much of the clever comedy seems to be based on rather obscure things that I'm not remembering.
There seems to be a lot of personal comedy rather then general comedy, which means it might be very funny to the person writing it but is lost on most people.

Wallyz
2006-12-21, 09:24 AM
One more thing ... now that I'm thinking about it ...



CLOTH GOLEMS IS FUNNY! WHY ISN'T THAT IN THE COMIC! Seriously, your heart is in the right place, but....


Look at the last two panels of Erfworld 9 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0009.html)

Also- Erloas, the range of humor is inself a metajoke, a la Dennis Miller

Furin_Mirado
2006-12-21, 09:24 AM
I'm still pretty interested in where this is going and the stuffed animals in the last panel seem to support my theory that this is based in a strategy war game for children. Although it could also be that the titans created this place for their children to play around in.

Manga Shoggoth
2006-12-21, 09:34 AM
Well, this is the first page that made me laugh out load (thankfully it is my last day in work for Christmas).

Why did I laugh?

The lineup consisting of giant four soft toys (including a Care Bear), a rather grumpy pink creature (the sourmander?), an invisible unicorn* and a cheshire cat that has totally disappeared, including the smile.

This followed by the comment "She, um. She doesn't know you're coming. But she might be greatful.".

So that's what the hats are for. Of course, they are magician's hats! I didn't get the Hoffa/Livingstone reference, so I'm glad someone explained. At least there were no rabbit jokes.



*I will spare you the obvious comments about Virgins and Essex Girls.

Gygaxphobia
2006-12-21, 09:35 AM
Personally I still love Erfworld, however I really see this issue as make-or-break for a fanbase.
I knew when I read it that it would polarise opinion more than issues uptil now and I totally expected many of these reactions.
Different strokes for different folks eh?

Wallyz
2006-12-21, 09:39 AM
At least there were no rabbit jokes.




Yet.

















(ten char fill)

jami
2006-12-21, 09:43 AM
The lineup consisting of giant four soft toys (including a Care Bear), a rather grumpy pink creature (the sourmander?), an invisible unicorn* and a cheshire cat that has totally disappeared, including the smile.

The unicorn and the cat are supposed to be made out of glass. A bit hard to do with the coloring style I think, but I guess that makes them kind of invisible.

Om
2006-12-21, 09:48 AM
The Hoffa/Livingston joke was probably my best "laugh out loud" moment yet. I skimmed over it, as I'm wont to do, only to return to decipher the note (co-ordinates as it turns out) and caught the Hoffa in passing :smallsmile:

Ikkitosen
2006-12-21, 09:52 AM
Another good strip, building building building...

One question: In the panel where Jillian lands her gwiffon on the twoll, the underside of the gwiffon is drawn to represent..well, something I don'y get (I'm no artist). What effect are you going for here?

Sebastian Bux
2006-12-21, 09:54 AM
In the interest of comparison between Erfworld and Order of the Stick, I’ve decided to go back and reread the first 10 issues of OOTS and try and figure out why it works and Erf does not. Here’s what I found out…

First and foremost, OOTS establishes in the first comic that the theme is D&D based satire. It also establishes that the artwork is going to be rather simplistic (which is comedy in and of itself – Order of the “STICK”). We are basically told from the beginning that OOTS is going to be about the writing.

For character development in the first comic we learn that Belkar is a ranger and that Elan is a bard (chain shirt/mandolin). For D&D fans, it’s easy for us to put those two facts into context to find the humor. But the whole first comic is saturated with D&D humor. A sign of things to come…

Comic 2 establishes Elan’s role in the party, a role that has pervaded for quite some time (still pervades, I believe).

Comic 3 continues the D&D humor while establishing what we can infer from the previous two comics – V is a wizard. In the theme of D&D humor, this is all we need to know for now to continue to enjoy the series.

Comic 4 continues to make us laugh with more D&D humor. It’s even funnier when you think that a ranger should have a really good spot check. The humor continues when you got to comic 5. So far that’s 5 strong issues that continue on the theme of D&D humor. OOTS has a purpose and it’s sticking with it to draw you in. Again, this is all about writing, not artwork.

Comic 6 explores Durkon and the fact he’s a cleric and what it’s like to be a cleric in D&D. This is another funny comic who’s humor continues in comic 7 with Durkon speaking to his God. In Comic 8 we learn about Hailey being a rogue and we see a great satire on the rogue’s place in a party. There’s also a hint of the relationship between Hailey and Elan (though at the time it seems friendlier then anything).

Comic 9 is a great satire on the Girdle of Feminity/Masculinity. This is just another great D&D example that has persisted throughout.

In Comic 10 we have an exposition from V about being a wizard. For me this is also funny because V is an elf and I know a lot of players in real life who love to be an Elf wizard and they almost always talk like that. It’s funny!

So what have we learned from 10 issues of OOTS?

1 – It’s a D&D satire with stick figure main characters
2 – It’s well written and appeals to D&D players everywhere. OOTS goes on to appeal to the roleplayers out there, as well, who can identify with the subjects even if they don’t know the D&D mechanics.
3 – There’s almost something funny about OOTS. This pervades through all 10 comics.

What does this mean in the long run? Well, nothing really. In the end Erfworld is nothing like OOTS. It has complex art design, OOTS does not. It has childish writing, OOTS does not. It’s pretty boring and uninteresting, OOTS is not.

You might say that you can’t compare OOTS and Erfworld, they are two different comics. Well, as long as Giant in the Playground hosts Erfworld they will always be associated. It begs comparison.

I just haven’t been drawn in to this comic yet. I thought the “End of Turn” joke was funny, until it kept going and going through two more comics. And I realize that “Cloth Golems” were mentioned in comic 9 but the humor of it was lost on me. It would have been funnier to me to see people running away from giant stuffed animals and someone yelling, “Cloth Golems… Run for your lives!” That would have been far more effective.

Erfworld needs to focus on better writing. Write a good story to stick figure characters and then draw this really stunning art. And while I’m on the art, some of these panels just don’t go together. It’s like they just put some separate panels together to try and make a story.

Bah, I’m just not digging it. I’ll still read it cause I have nothing better to look at on Tuesday’s and Thursdays but I come here everyday because of OOTS, not Erfworld.

Sebastian

jami
2006-12-21, 10:04 AM
Another good strip, building building building...

One question: In the panel where Jillian lands her gwiffon on the twoll, the underside of the gwiffon is drawn to represent..well, something I don'y get (I'm no artist). What effect are you going for here?

I'm a little confused by the question, but I'll try my best. Jillian has landed on the twoll and unleashed the gwiffon's mighty (and only) attack, the MWWAAAGH (sounds much better when Rob and I do it in person). The white area is the gwiffon's marshmallow mouth opening to engulf the twoll who is pinned to the ground by the gwiffon's marshmallowy mass.

Aiani
2006-12-21, 10:05 AM
I like the skeleton dudes. They are the cutest skellies I have ever seen.

Mauril Everleaf
2006-12-21, 10:07 AM
as rob said, this is a graphic novel given in serial format, not a serial comic that will be bundled for graphic novel sale (like oots is). if any of you have ever read a graphic novel, you will know what that is supposed to mean, and therefore have probably given erfworld more than a 10 page chance. im currently reading a series by tite kubo called bleach, which in volume 16, still is about 4 or 5 books away from reaching the climax of the first plot arc. it took about 3 books or so to introduce all the characters and give them a personality. seeing as how rob mentioned that this project is going to run until about 9 months (i think thats what he said, correct me if im wrong) this would be a much more truncated time table, but this still implies that there will be considerable time given to plot development and character introductions. heck, we know nothing about 2 (3 if you count the arkenhammer) of the characters from the cast page.
give it time people. if the humor bothers you, then go back to just reading oots because i doubt itll change. but if its the lack of development, then give it time. it will happpen. rob has promised us that much. and if thats not enough, then trust the giant. he, in his infinite wisdom, has decided that this comic is worthy of his site.

Ikkitosen
2006-12-21, 10:16 AM
I'm a little confused by the question, but I'll try my best. Jillian has landed on the twoll and unleashed the gwiffon's mighty (and only) attack, the MWWAAAGH (sounds much better when Rob and I do it in person). The white area is the gwiffon's marshmallow mouth opening to engulf the twoll who is pinned to the ground by the gwiffon's marshmallowy mass.

That's bang on, thanks. I thought the white was the underside of the gwiffon, not the inside of its mouth. Oh, and marshmallow monsters? Cool :smallcool:

Dr._Bob
2006-12-21, 10:25 AM
I don't generally post outside of the PbP boards, but I really wanted to counter-balance the negative vibe of some of the posts I've been reading in the forum:

Erfworld rocks!

Great concept. Great art. Immersive storyline. Wit. Style. The more I see of it, the more I look forward to the next installment. Kudos to the writer and artist, and thanks tothe Giant for providing a platform for its presentation.

Axorcist
2006-12-21, 10:30 AM
I mostly have a comment regarding the humor of this series. I am, by no means, a humor expert, but I know what makes me laugh. I just haven't had any of the bursting out laughing moments that I have over and over with Order of the Stick. This makes me particularly sad, because I see jokes that should make me laugh, but their delivery is ruined for me.

Did anyone else have the Orly joke ruined for them? The fact that it was mentioned and the punch line not delivered until the following comic ruined the flow of that joke for me. Shameful, considering that I would have laughed - rolling on the ground - if it were delivered a little more succinctly.

Granted, not all jokes need to be resolved in the same comic. The cloth golem quirk was actually pretty cute and I inwardly laughed. It works because for the two days between comics I can picture what I think a cloth golem looks like - a hulking mass of rags stuck together in human form. To see them as teddy bears is funny to me. Unfortunately, I feel like I'm still waiting for the real humor. We get to see what a cloth golem is, but instead of commenting on some special ability of a cloth golem like a snuggling attack or something, Ansom just comments on how Jillian might be grateful. I don't see the relationship to the impression that the panel yields - the sudden victory of knowing what a cloth golem is in Erfworld.

Finally, this discussion thread is proof at least that I'm not the only one who thought the Hoffa/Livingston joke was too obscure. Maybe if the names were spelled out - Jimmy Hoffa / Dr. Livingston - I could have come to the conclusion on my own, making it funny.

It's not that I don't think Erfworld is funny. I see the humor used. I just don't feel the attachment to it because of the delivery of some of the jokes. It's also been mentioned that some people are finding the comic hilarious. I'm not sure what specifically is different between myself and those people, but I don't directly identify. I think this comic could be hilarious with some touch ups to the humor. With that, I believe the comic could be more entertaining to a wider set of readers.

Hart av Srednak
2006-12-21, 10:32 AM
as rob said, this is a graphic novel given in serial format, not a serial comic that will be bundled for graphic novel sale (like oots is). if any of you have ever read a graphic novel, you will know what that is supposed to mean, and therefore have probably given erfworld more than a 10 page chance. im currently reading a series by tite kubo called bleach, which in volume 16, still is about 4 or 5 books away from reaching the climax of the first plot arc. it took about 3 books or so to introduce all the characters and give them a personality.

This is also how I have seen Erfworld. It's about rhytm of this comic. For those who don't like this comic because of its "slow" development or "not-funny" pages I suggest not to read it every time new page comes up. 5 new pages / one reading might serve the enjoyment better.

Om
2006-12-21, 10:33 AM
Finally, this discussion thread is proof at least that I'm not the only one who thought the Hoffa/Livingston joke was too obscure. Maybe if the names were spelled out - Jimmy Hoffa / Dr. Livingston - I could have come to the conclusion on my own, making it funny.
*shrugs*

There's different levels of humour. On the one hand you have the ORLYs and on the other things like Hoffa and Key Lime Pie.

jami
2006-12-21, 10:44 AM
I kinda look at our humor as a sort of Warner Brothers cartoon thing. There was a lot of stuff that you laughed at when you were a kid because they were just silly funny. Then, if you ever went back to watch those cartoons again, you pick up stuff on another level entirely. Same gags, but different meanings.

Having Rob and I explain the jokes is not the point of this comic. There are many levels to enjoy this thing and we want to give you the opportunity to discover them on your own.

stoffe
2006-12-21, 11:04 AM
So far ErfWorld has been interesting to read, and I look forward to seeing how it develops. It is different from OOTS (which I also like), but that's not a problem in my opinion. Just like I can enjoy movies from separate genres so can comics be appreciated for different reasons.

Wallyz
2006-12-21, 11:08 AM
Btw, Jamie- I totally got the marshmallow interior of the gwiffon. That was some fancy drawin' there pardner.

The Giant
2006-12-21, 11:09 AM
See, now, I got the Hoffa/Livingston joke right away, but I didn't even know the Orlys WERE a joke until Rob explained it to me on AIM. I'd never heard of the "O RLY?" thing at all, while I'm quite familiar with "Dr. Livingston, I presume?" Which just says to me that Rob is covering a wide breadth of material, both historical and of-the-moment. And I can't see how that's bad.

At any rate, I have no official confirmation of this, but the glass animals in the last panel were likely the "tcotchkes" mentioned in Strip #9. For those not in the know, "tchotchke*" is a Yiddish word for knickknacks, kitsch, etc. Glass unicorns and kittens definitely fit the bill.

* Rob's spelling might also be correct, insofar as there's no standard transliteration from Yiddish to English.

Mauril Everleaf
2006-12-21, 11:13 AM
YAY! the Giant speaks. im also glad that im not the only one that didnt get the orlies until it was explained. even now thats its explained, i think its funny, not rediculous and disgusting like others seem to think.
Rock on Erfworld! Rock on!

jami
2006-12-21, 11:16 AM
See, now, I got the Hoffa/Livingston joke right away, but I didn't even know the Orlys WERE a joke until Rob explained it to me on AIM. I'd never heard of the "O RLY?" thing at all, while I'm quite familiar with "Dr. Livingston, I presume?" Which just says to me that Rob is covering a wide breadth of material, both historical and of-the-moment. And I can't see how that's bad.

At any rate, I have no official confirmation of this, but the glass animals in the last panel were likely the "tcotchkes" mentioned in Strip #9. For those not in the know, "tchotchke*" is a Yiddish word for knickknacks, kitsch, etc. Glass unicorns and kittens definitely fit the bill.

* Rob's spelling might also be correct, insofar as there's no standard transliteration from Yiddish to English.

I originally thought that ORLY was referring to those Oreily books, one of which has a snowy owl. So my initial drawing was of that snowy owl on that HTML book or whatever book. HA! I'm such a noob.

Yes, those glass animals be the tchotchkes.

Syous
2006-12-21, 11:23 AM
Erfworld is really quite terrible...

Hi, as some one who is working in graphic related field i find this statement itself hilarious. Here we have Artists who contributed time and skill working on graphic novels asking nothing in return for our entertaiment pleasure and readers actually posted saying possibilty of "not to return reading it if things does not improve".

I for one find Efrworld more charming than oots, it is just matter of personal taste. Keep up the good work!

Marller
2006-12-21, 11:35 AM
The unicorn and the cat are supposed to be made out of glass. A bit hard to do with the coloring style I think, but I guess that makes them kind of invisible.

Heh, i thought those are Phantom beasts out of Master of Magic. :smallsmile:

TinSoldier
2006-12-21, 11:39 AM
I didn't comment on number nine, but I got a kick out of the orlies. The only place I've really seen O RLY is here on GiantITP so I was surprised that The Giant wasn't familiar with it. I've seen the owl a time or two as well but not so much that it became a nuisance.

Number ten was cool. I didn't really get the twoll counting to three. The top hat was explained a little better-I understood "Hoffa" but not "Livingstone".

I guess that I just like the surreality of this comic even if I don't always get the references. Would I read it if it wasn't hosted on GiantITP? I doubt it but that's hard to say for sure.

Nikolai_II
2006-12-21, 11:45 AM
I like Erfoworld a lot, but I read it as a comic about how Warlords (the computer game) would be in a multiplayer environment (like Warcraft Online) seen mostly from inside the game. (Exclusively, it would seem) but nonetheless somewhat related to Giana Mazetti's "the Noob", only Erfworld has better art :smallwink:

Manga Shoggoth
2006-12-21, 11:52 AM
I didn't really get the twoll counting to three.

He was counting the skeletons. He started off with three, and one vanished. This was not a problem for him because he could count up to three.

TinSoldier
2006-12-21, 11:56 AM
He was counting the skeletons. He started off with three, and one vanished. This was not a problem for him because he could count up to three.Thanks. That makes sense. I saw the "swoop" but it didn't click to me that one of the skeletons had disappeared.

I guess the twoll was smarter than I am :smallwink: !

Duraska
2006-12-21, 11:58 AM
Actually, we know quite a bit about the main characters and we're only on the tenth page so far...

Lord Stanley the Plaid appears almost single-mindedly focused on his quest for the various arkentools, even at the expense of his lands (he's lost 11 cities now, and seems close to losing his capital). He doesn't seem to take the war seriously, and he doesn't seem to understand the consequences of his poor leadership. He believes he is correct in his actions, and seems to think himself impervious to harm. If he is given a choice between a sure victory that costs 500,000 shmuckers, and a cheaper (and much riskier) alternative that costs only 350,000, he instantly goes for the "bargain" without any thought.

Wanda Firebaugh is Lord Stanley's chief "Croakamancer." Her duties seem to be picking new warlords to lead Lord Stanley's war (and soon-after resurrecting them when they die). She is a voice of reason to Stanley, and she is not afraid to voice her opinions - not that he'll listen anyway. However, at the end of the day, she is loyal and obedient to his demands.

And on the other side of the war...

Prince Ansom is a much better strategist than Lord Stanley, if a bit overconfident of his abilities. He seems to have a thing for Jillian and doesn't want to see her get into (more) trouble. He obviously knows her talents, and ultimately lets her go on a scouting mission that he originally denied, but he still orders another squad to secretly keep an eye on her.

Jillian is an independently-minded warrior who lends her cause to Ansom's army. She is sure of her abilities, and stubborn in her desires (if she knew what they were). She and Ansom have either had some sort of relationship in the past, or she is secretly attracted to him, hence the scene where she almost took him up on his invitation.


Well... those are my observations based on what I've read. I won't pretend to fully understand the comic, if anything it seems "dream-like" where you recognize objects (peeps, croquet mallets, care bears) but they are used in non-sensical ways that don't entirely make sense. I think this comic has some serious promise, especially once we can understand the world a bit more; and I really like some of the characters. Plus, the art is fantastic!

Aliquid
2006-12-21, 12:08 PM
This one made me laugh.

I really like the cloth golems, and other toy monsters, and the Peep attack was gross and gooey :)

A couple of comments to the complainers:
Those who complain it sucks because they find it confusing.... you probably find Quantum Mechanics either, should that field of study be cast off as lame?

Some people have been commenting on the overuse of the "turn" joke. The world is in a turn base system. It is integral to how their reality works; of course they are going to talk about it all the time.

jsh
2006-12-21, 12:28 PM
Jimmy Hoffa disappeared.... By the same logic, David Livingston....
That took me a minute, but it's good magical verbaige. ^_^

cosine
2006-12-21, 12:32 PM
I'm glad to see people explaining the Hoffa/Livingston command words and the tchotchkes so I don't have to. No one has mentioned yet, but Jillian writes (x,y) coordinates on her note to Ansom, further continuing the computer game references. Perhaps the "no cas" in the note refers to finding no treasure on them (ie "no cash")? Clever reverse sound effect for appearing and disappearing - Poof... Foop. Notice that the yellow and white stripes on the top hats are reversed?

There is a bit of metastory that people are missing. Lord Stanley's forces are being portrayed as traditional bad guys; necromancers, trolls, dragons, undead foot soldiers. In contrast, Ansom's forces are being portrayed as traditional good guys. This portrayal is done in a variety of clever ways. The soldiers are cute and friendly things, like teddy bears, nicknacks, and marshmallow peeps. Also, the characters use childish language, another indicator of "cuteness".

Thus we see that these features are more about the portrayal of the forces and characters and less about trying to convey significant meaning. This is then in contrast in OotS, where we have more overt references to a particular medium (D&D) for the purpose of making jokes. Erfworld seems to be using humorous images to convey information about the situation. This follows along well with the author's claims of grasping a larger, unfolding story with more diverse humor as well.

Mr_Teatime
2006-12-21, 01:20 PM
I assumed that "no cas" was a shortened version of "No Casualties", seeing as there weren't any. Not on Jillian's side, anyway.

Poor twoll... getting eaten by a Peep? Yeesh. :smalleek:

Mr_Saturn
2006-12-21, 01:29 PM
They look like carebears. o____O

jami
2006-12-21, 01:47 PM
Actually, the green bear is a cameo that only my brother would understand. But the pinkish one is sorta modeled on a care bear, sorta on that Akira bear when Tetsuo is loosing his mellon.

Please don't make me explain Akira and Tetsuo :smallredface:

LunaWolvesMan
2006-12-21, 01:58 PM
Awesome, I'm actually looking forward to both comics just as much everyday. (OotS more maybe this week given the high tension story at the moment) but I'm really liking Erfworld and the humor. I play Kingdom of Loathing quite a bit so I'm used to looking for more subtle jokes although the Orlies made me laugh quite a bit, especially when attacking.

Based on what I've seen the world seems to be in miniature, from the gwiffon/peep to the cloth golem/teddy bears ect. Even the arkenhammer has the look of a little squeaky clown hammer.

I'm really looking forward to reading more and I would assume that you guys would be hoping to put these into print at sometime?

SteveMB
2006-12-21, 02:06 PM
Compare this to Erfworld, which has at least some story, shows us the basic personality of four characters, and only has less humor overall.
I still haven't gotten a real handle on Erfworld, but it's starting to grow on me.

One question: does "abjuration only" as opposed to "dual use" refer to the hats working only one way (from Jillian to Ansom but not vice versa) or something else? If it's the former, I get the implication that Ansom is tacitly admitting that trying to give Jillian orders in mid-mission is an exercise in futility....

Ambrogino
2006-12-21, 02:14 PM
Personally, I'm done. I said was willing to give it some time to get up to speed, but I found strip 10 barely comprehensible. Just not for me I guess.

Axorcist
2006-12-21, 02:32 PM
Ok, the Key Lime pie thing made me laugh out loud. Forgot about that. Good one guys :)

I would call this a thought-provoking discussion on humor. Something about knowing what a tcotchke is actually makes me appreciate the whole comic a little more. There's really much more humor in these strips than is readily apparent. I'm not sure what that means in terms of appreciation yet, but I think it's true.

Cymraegmorgan
2006-12-21, 02:37 PM
Personally, I'm done. I said was willing to give it some time to get up to speed, but I found strip 10 barely comprehensible. Just not for me I guess.

Not just you.
Me too.

Boring, incomprehensible, mediocre.

If ten strips cannot yield more than this:
Off with their heads!

Seriously, what a waste of time and space.
I guess it makes a good(or bad) counterweight to OOTS.

cosine
2006-12-21, 02:42 PM
I assumed that "no cas" was a shortened version of "No Casualties", seeing as there weren't any. Not on Jillian's side, anyway.

Poor twoll... getting eaten by a Peep? Yeesh. :smalleek:

My mistake. I agree with you.

cosine
2006-12-21, 02:47 PM
One question: does "abjuration only" as opposed to "dual use" refer to the hats working only one way (from Jillian to Ansom but not vice versa) or something else? If it's the former, I get the implication that Ansom is tacitly admitting that trying to give Jillian orders in mid-mission is an exercise in futility....

Abjuration magic is traditionally the magic of blocking or protecting. So, Jillian is asking "Is this to protect me? Perhaps blocking scrying or detection?" and Ansom answer's "It is dual use; you can send me messages as you are scouting and it will protect you as well." The particular exchange carries the implication of gaming geeks; instead of having a plain conversation about the hat and it's purpose, they have a short hand jargon to discuss things.

At least, that's my impression.

EDIT: It seems I have the conversation backwards. Jillian asks "Is it dual use." and Ansom answers "Abjuration only." In light of this, my explanation doesn't quite work... and the entire exchange doesn't make sense. The hat as we see in the next page is used to send and receive messages. So, it should be Jillian asking "Is it abjuration only?" and Ansom replying "It's dual use." ... As it is, Ansom should be answering something like "Conjuration only" - meaning magic for sending and receiving notes, but not protecting Jillian.

cosine
2006-12-21, 02:55 PM
Boring, incomprehensible, mediocre.

Hmmm... I would suggest that it is somewhat slow in pace, leading to a feeling of boredom. Also, the author's intention of having a story develop instead of "joke-per-page" will only add to that feeling.

The story itself is fairly understandable, although the author is being perhaps intentionally stingy with his introduction to keep some people curious and draw out the narrative. The jokes are, judging from the responses, occasionally trite and incongruous. Personally, I feel there is an attempt at broad humor appeal referencing many different groups, from the historical through gaming to just plain clever. Generally, this is a lot more sophisticated than your average webcomic.

Mediocre? It still seems too early to really pass judgement on that. There are many less ambitious efforts that by nature fall flatter than this. Even some very popular webcomics aren't up to this challenge. As such, it seems most fair to forestall judgement for the time being.

innovan
2006-12-21, 03:36 PM
That last pannel is completely "Little Nemo in Slumberland".

Nerd-o-rama
2006-12-21, 04:48 PM
I'm going to stay out of the discussion on the philosophy of humor, but I will say when I aw the last panel, I was like "huh. Stuffed animals."

Then I went back and read the last panel of #9 and thought "huh. Cloth golems," and facepalmed. In a good way.

Mr._Blinky
2006-12-21, 04:54 PM
Alright .. I've given this comic 10 issues before commenting...

Erfworld is really quite terrible. It suffers from really poor writing. The story is all over the place and the chacter development is non existant. Nothing makes sense to me. It lacks the true wit and charm of OOTS.

If there was one thing I could say that was positive about it, it would be the artwork. I actually love the art style. The characters and environs are wonderfully drawn. It's a shame such great panels are ruined by a story that goes nowhere. Where OOTS is clever and funny, Erf is just boring and fractured.

I will say that it does feel like a good comic is in there somewhere, but I don't think it's full potential has been realized yet. Actually, I'd settle for someone realizing it's most basic potential. That would be nice.

Anyway, I've probably only got about a few issues left of this thing before I abandon it completely. Hopefully it won't come to that.

Sebastian
To be perfectly fair, if you look back in the OotS archives, the plot to Erfworld is revealed almost immediatly, whereas OotS's plot isn't revealed till comic #13. That's more than Erfworld has under it's belt so far, so it's kind of hypocritical for praising one comic's plot and condemning the other's this early in the game. And really, how much character developement did OotS have by comic #10? None, really. We'd figured out Roy was a smart fighter, V was an arrogant wizard, Haley is a thief (duh), Elan is stupid, Durkon is a cleric (double duh), and Belkar is evil. Aaaaand that's about it. OotS has character developement because it has longevity. While I'll admit that OotS's early comics are funnier than ErfWorld's, don't hold up the one as a shining example of the other's faults.

SteveMB
2006-12-21, 04:58 PM
And really, how much character developement did OotS have by comic #10? None, really. We'd figured out Roy was a smart fighter, V was an arrogant wizard, Haley is a thief (duh), Elan is stupid, Durkon is a cleric (double duh), and Belkar is evil.
Quibble: I just reread the first ten OotS comics, and darned if I can find any hint of Belkar's evilness.

Fillbert
2006-12-21, 05:25 PM
Erfworld.... there have been some funny jokes, but I'm lost. When is it going to start to make sense?

Bruenor
2006-12-21, 05:43 PM
Alright .. I've given this comic 10 issues before commenting...

Erfworld is really quite terrible. It suffers from really poor writing. The story is all over the place and the chacter development is non existant. Nothing makes sense to me. It lacks the true wit and charm of OOTS.

If there was one thing I could say that was positive about it, it would be the artwork. I actually love the art style. The characters and environs are wonderfully drawn. It's a shame such great panels are ruined by a story that goes nowhere. Where OOTS is clever and funny, Erf is just boring and fractured.

I will say that it does feel like a good comic is in there somewhere, but I don't think it's full potential has been realized yet. Actually, I'd settle for someone realizing it's most basic potential. That would be nice.

Anyway, I've probably only got about a few issues left of this thing before I abandon it completely. Hopefully it won't come to that.

Sebastian
Dude...did you understand anything when you first read OOTS? Also, they did say that this was more of a serious comic, though if a barbarian riding a Peep is serious, I wonder what funny for them...

IronMouse
2006-12-21, 06:14 PM
You know, it really annoys me when people write something off when they haven't even seen enough to truly get to grips with the material. How can the plot be all over the place when we have only seen two aspects of it? Would you stop reading a normal comic just because four pages in it cut to a different scene? It doesn't have as good humour as OotS, but that is because it is a primarily story comic- that and you do not get some of the better references. It has next to no character development? We have only seen 10 pages, and we haven't seen all the characters yet! The first pages of any writing are normally meant to introduce characters so we can see how they will develop later on. We are not meant to have the characters develop immediately, when the full setting hasn't even been explained yet! OotS was easy to pick up because it is a gag-a-day comic with a storyline behind it, Erfworld is harder to pick up because it is a story comic with gags meant to be in the background. From what I have seen, Erfworld is going to be an interesting comic with a good storyline. All of you that are writing it off before you have even got the background info, you are people who were expecting something different than what you were told to expect.
The difference between OOTS and Erfworld is why I decided to give Erf 30 episodes before deciding to continue or abandon it.

What is most telling about the quality of Erfworld (aside form the fact that I had to decide to give it 30 strips to catch my interest, as it obviously did not do so from the beginning) is the fact that I don’t think about checking out if a new episode is up.

I don’t buy the arguments about character development and the claims some have made about how OOTS didn’t do any or much in the first ten episodes. In rereading the first ten OOTS I found developed characters and character relationships, yes they are painted in the most basic broad stripes but all the characters have distinct and consistent personalities and (this is terribly important) you can tell them apart without having to refer to the character guide.

Yes OOTS was a gag a day (usually several gags) but that is how Giant drew us in and kept us around to develop his complex story line. Erfworld doesn’t have that going for it. the gags are broadcast and lets face it…if you have to have them explained…as in the “ORLY” or “Livingston” gags…then the author didn’t do a good job of it in the first place. (And when ‘cloth golems’ were mentioned I immediately sighed and said we would see teddy bears on the battle field before to long…I hoped I was wrong…I wasn’t)

Nekkira
2006-12-21, 06:15 PM
I like the artwork but can't understand most of the comics.

LTDave
2006-12-21, 07:09 PM
Well, I'm enjoying it immensely.

As a non-DnD-er I relate to the Fantasy battles aspect more closely.

I also think this universe might be based on one of those collectable card games that are all the rage at the moment.

Ikkitosen
2006-12-21, 07:09 PM
Face it guys; most of you arrived after OoTs had a good number of comics written, and so if there were any early "wtf?" moments you quickly read past them in a few mins and understood what was going on. If you don't get EW right now, come back in a month when there are enough strips/pages to get you past that "wtf?" period and into the "ooh, interesting" period and make your judgements there.

LurkerBeneath
2006-12-21, 07:19 PM
What's the white stuff around Jillian's mouth when she lands on the twoll? Or is that her teeth and her lips are just open really wide? Or is that her mouth and she's made of marshmallow like the gwiffon? Is she a marbit?
-LB

Darth Paradox
2006-12-21, 08:31 PM
Abjuration magic is traditionally the magic of blocking or protecting. So, Jillian is asking "Is this to protect me? Perhaps blocking scrying or detection?" and Ansom answer's "It is dual use; you can send me messages as you are scouting and it will protect you as well." The particular exchange carries the implication of gaming geeks; instead of having a plain conversation about the hat and it's purpose, they have a short hand jargon to discuss things.

At least, that's my impression.

EDIT: It seems I have the conversation backwards. Jillian asks "Is it dual use." and Ansom answers "Abjuration only." In light of this, my explanation doesn't quite work... and the entire exchange doesn't make sense. The hat as we see in the next page is used to send and receive messages. So, it should be Jillian asking "Is it abjuration only?" and Ansom replying "It's dual use." ... As it is, Ansom should be answering something like "Conjuration only" - meaning magic for sending and receiving notes, but not protecting Jillian.

I was under the impression that another interpretation for "abjuration" is "banishment". Jillian is literally "banishing" the note away from her, and towards Ansom. (Alternately, maybe "abjuration" as the opposite of "conjuration" - conjuration is making something appear, and abjuration is making it disappear. Hence the hats? They're obviously some sort of stage-magic reference.)

I do wonder why they wouldn't use IM-books like Wanda and Stanley, though.

Krytha
2006-12-21, 08:41 PM
Yeah so... I can see elfworld doesnt float everyone's boat, but its kinda a nice interlude to OotS. Sure, it takes some time to internalize, but every new strip goes through that. I just didn't realize the troll was a troll as opposed to a large burly dude - and the peep thing was just disgusting - probably as it should be...

I didn't realize the kids theme would play so prominently, but I'm willing to follow whatever the authors want to make out of that, for better or for worse. Gogo Jillian, barbarian peep-rider extraordinaire.

Fat Daddy
2006-12-21, 09:42 PM
Care bears? Sorry but I'm going to have to give up on Erfworld. Best of luck to you but it just isn't for me.

SteveMB
2006-12-21, 10:37 PM
I was under the impression that another interpretation for "abjuration" is "banishment". Jillian is literally "banishing" the note away from her, and towards Ansom. (Alternately, maybe "abjuration" as the opposite of "conjuration" - conjuration is making something appear, and abjuration is making it disappear. Hence the hats? They're obviously some sort of stage-magic reference.)
That was how I was interpreting it. If it's something else, I'm at a bit of a loss as to what "dual use" Jillian was asking about (if this interpretation is correct "dual use" would presumably refer to a two-way capability).

Of course, I could be wrong (though I still like the implication I mentioned in my first message, that a one-way link is a tacit acknowlegement by Ansom of the limitations of his ability to get Jillian to do what he says).

Ingeloakastimizilian
2006-12-21, 10:48 PM
that whole panel was confusing....

Jacklu
2006-12-21, 10:48 PM
Wow. Just wow. That twoll really was a tasty target. The gwiffon's MWARRRH attack was brilliant. Never again will I underestimate the destructive nature of peeps. And I loved the Hoffa/Livingston joke. Those cloth golems were freaking sweet and the tcotchkes reminded me of some knick knacks my grandmother had. And the look on that sourmander's face was.... sour. I can't wait till Tuesday! I also get the feeling Jillian won't be so grateful.

robinmotion
2006-12-21, 10:51 PM
It doesn't annoy me that they write something off; it annoys me that they declare the comic's supposed lack of quality as if it's fact. Who are they to say that it's a terrible comic, some kind of literary critic? I mean, c'mon! Does it make them feel good about themselves to say "This thing sucks" instead of "I really don't like this thing"? It makes me feel like they're trying to make themselves feel better about feeling left out of the pro-Erfworld crowd, or something.

Just because you don't like it, folks, doesn't mean it's bad. It just means it's different than what you enjoy. Don't try to crap all over everyone else's day to make your point.

In short, "I feel" statements are a wonderful thing. They're what any productive conversation IRL is based on. Let's use 'em.


You know, it really annoys me when people write something off when they haven't even seen enough to truly get to grips with the material.

Electric
2006-12-21, 10:53 PM
Face it guys; most of you arrived after OoTs had a good number of comics written, and so if there were any early "wtf?" moments you quickly read past them in a few mins and understood what was going on. If you don't get EW right now, come back in a month when there are enough strips/pages to get you past that "wtf?" period and into the "ooh, interesting" period and make your judgements there.

Completely agreed. A synopsis of the first 10 OOTS comics essentially reveals that each character had their own little explanation of their roles within the party, dictated with some rigidity by each characters class (there is a little deviation from class stereotypes, granted, but not much). The humour in that is rather obvious in a familiar sense, at least for me as someone who plays dnd. Erfworld has already lain the foundations for character development and *started* developing their personalities and relationships within the first 10 comics. Seriously, if OOTS managed from it's fairly humble beginnings to establish the kind of characters that currently propel the plot and motivate readers to return, then Erfworld, all things going well (and for me, thus far, the comic is going very well), should soon become one of my favourites. Of course, all this is my own opinion, I can imagine that everybody feels a comic's pace and character development slightly differently.

Some people are having difficulty, it would seem, sticking with a comic that doesn't deliver a gag at the end of every update. Or that doesn't beat you over the head with obvious humour. Thats fine, the world would be a fairly boring place if everybody enjoyed the same exact things, I suppose. I, for one, am a proud Erfworld idiot, and eagerly await with schoolgirlish glee the next update.

chionophile
2006-12-21, 10:54 PM
Care bears? Sorry but I'm going to have to give up on Erfworld. Best of luck to you but it just isn't for me.

Y'know, I've been seeing a lot of this. I don't mean to single you out, but yours was the most recent. I'd have expected more people capable of suspension of disbelief on this board. I think ya'll are too old and jaded to see the fun that is Erfworld. So what if he's using internet memes and child-like themes (hey that rhymed!)? Relax a little bit, it's not like you're paying for this.

Also, to the poster asking about Jillian's mouth - that's her having a blast destroying twolls. She's got a slightly maniacal grin going on (the whiteness is her teeth). Wanda has a similar face on page 6, panels 7 and 9.

Electric
2006-12-21, 11:03 PM
Does it make them feel good about themselves to say "This thing sucks" instead of "I really don't like this thing"?
The quality of art is subjective. A comic is art (I doubt anybody would disagree that Erfworld is a comic :smallwink: ), therefore the quality of Erfworld, as a comic, is subjective.


"In reason, subjectivity refers to the property of perceptions, arguments, and language as being based in a subject point of view, and hence influenced in accordance with a particular bias. Its oppoite property is objectivity, which refers to such as based in a separate, distant, and unbiased point of view, such that concepts discussed are treated as objects.

In philosophy, subjectivity refers to the specific discerning interpretations of any aspect of experiences. They are unique to the person experiencing them, the qualia that are only available to that person's consciousness. Though the causes of experience are thought objective and available to everyone, (such as the wavelength of a specific beam of light), experiences themselves are only available to the person experiencing them (the quality of the color itself)." From the wikipedia article on subjectivity :smallcool:


Anybody who attempts state that the assertion "Erfworld sucks" is an objective fact is in error. However, people often say things such as "Erfworld sucks" when what they really mean is "I think Erfworld sucks". I generally try to make it plain that I do not believe any of my opinions to amount to anything even approaching objective fact, but I can appreciate that a lot of people simply don't want to say "I believe that this is the case", or "In my humble opinion" before they offer said opinion. In short, whilst it can be annoying, try to take other people's opinions with a grain of salt. :smallwink:

robinmotion
2006-12-21, 11:12 PM
I think ya'll are too old and jaded to see the fun that is Erfworld. So what if he's using internet memes and child-like themes (hey that rhymed!)? Relax a little bit, it's not like you're paying for this.

Thank you! I agree. I've been trying my hardest not to comment on the intelligence or closed-mindedness of the nay-sayers, because that's not productive, but you used exactly the right term to describe the negative reactions: jaded. And the opposite of relaxed . . . uptight, I guess?

I'm trying to remember, but I don't think there was such negativity regarding OOTS when it first came out. If you didn't like it, you didn't go to the site. Easy as pie. In fact, I've never seen such intense negativity of a free (and I think, very talented, cool, intelligent, and fun) presentation.

I guess maybe this kind of thing only happens when a "guest" artist is presented in a shared space with the regulars? Personally, I'd rather have Erfworld on its own site so I didn't have to read all the Erf-bashing. But if it weren't here, I probably wouldn't have found it :smallbiggrin: .

Anyway, great job Jamie and Rob. I've enjoyed the story, love the subtle and surreal humor, and the art is simply amazing. And I don't think I've ever been confused about the action or dialogue, so don't feel the need to simplify or clarify too much, guys!

robinmotion
2006-12-21, 11:18 PM
However, people often say things such as "Erfworld sucks" when what they really mean is "I think Erfworld sucks".

I guess I don't get why they feel the need to say "I think Erfworld sucks" rather than "I don't like Erfworld." Why not just take ownership of your opinion and not try to ascribe your opinion to objective reality?


but I can appreciate that a lot of people simply don't want to say "I believe that this is the case", or "In my humble opinion" before they offer said opinion. In short, whilst it can be annoying, try to take other people's opinions with a grain of salt. :smallwink:

I know, I should :smallwink: . But some of the phrasing in this thread seems to push beyond the normal opinion without the "I think" before it, and more into actual bashing and objective fact. It's wording like "Erfworld really is quite terrible" that I'm looking at . . . not just terrible, but quite terrible, and not just quite terrible, but REALLY quite terrible.

This person is saying, loud and clear, that art is not subjective. That in this case, he or she knows the TRUTH.

And here I am, highlighting that negativity. Sigh. I have failed to follow the path of wisdom. :smallamused:

Cyclone231
2006-12-22, 12:25 AM
Come on, you guys. "No cas" is not "no cash" or "no casualties". It's "no casters".

Diggorian
2006-12-22, 01:22 AM
Because of it's pacing, Erfworld is likely something I'll check on weekly as opposed to daily. Until the next I'll be catching up on this interesting Goblins comic I just discovered.

I'm still open to be impressed (though I would never have gotten the Jewish knickknacks :smallbiggrin:). I'm eager to see what sourmanders do and am already writing up a Plush Guardian monster based on the cloth golems.

chionophile
2006-12-22, 01:24 AM
Cyclone's probably right, although I thought casualties at first too. Orlies are expendable, the only one Ansom cares about is Jillian and who would be sending the message if not Jill? So, as long as she's safe, Ansom would want to know about the composition and location of their enemies.

Also, I love the expression on Jill's face in panel 7 when she's writing the note. She just looks so cute with that hat on too.

(did anyone notice that the twoll used the word "tasty" when describing how exposed he felt ending a turn in the open? heehee...)

Krytha
2006-12-22, 01:49 AM
I don't play enough of these games (or any for that matter) to get the jokes immediately, but maybe Ill pick something up along the way.

I just noticed that in the jumble of ORLYs? theres a YARLY and a LOL, which delighted the idiot in me.

Nitan
2006-12-22, 02:42 AM
At first, I didn't particularly like the comics. Why isn't it like OotS I asked. Why is it talking about buying units and stuff? This is terrible!

But I stuck to it. Why? I have no idea but whatever it was, it was good. I grew to like Erfworld. Things started clicking, I began to develop attachments to characters, and most importantly I understood and accepted that it was OotS.

Now, with page 10 genuinely love this comic. It's hilarious, well drawn, and creative. Cloth Golems = Stuffed animals? Genius.

So keep it coming and stay the course writers and artists! You have me hooked.

AngryGreek
2006-12-22, 07:38 AM
I guess I don't get why they feel the need to say "I think Erfworld sucks" rather than "I don't like Erfworld." Why not just take ownership of your opinion and not try to ascribe your opinion to objective reality?

Perhaps the reason for this is more simple than you think. Saying 'I don't like Erfrworld' really does not convey my true level of dislike for the comic for some people. Perhaps writing down 'Erfworld is the least entertaining web comic I have had the displeasure to lay eyes on' (or, in laymans terms, Erfworld sucks) gets to the core of their true feelings in a much more concise way.

To nitpick about the lack of 'I think' and 'In my opinion' is sublime. Everyone (except truly mentally disturbed people) know that their opinion does not affect global change. When I say 'OOTS is the most entertaining web comic I have read' I do not expect that to become a truth for the entire population of this planet merely because I have said it. I expect people to realize, without the addition of redundant words being typed by me, that it is, in fact, my opinion.

I don't see the people who dislike Erfworld coming down on the fans and nitpicking their posts because they happen to like it. I wonder, then, why the fans feel it necessary to do just that. It seems a little defensive to me.

ZekeArgo
2006-12-22, 08:21 AM
This isn't a response to anyone in particular, but I think one of the *biggest* problems that people are having with Erfworld is not due to it's lack of quality, but perhaps because of the outstanding quality of The Giant's work at the moment.

Think about it, right now in OotS you have beloved characters and great new ones changing in new and unexpected ways, geeky references on many levels, and a general feeling of high adventure and excitement that really wasn't there during a few of the past story arcs.

What do you know? Maybe if Erfworld was released during Miko-Arc it would have received a warmer reception, but thats just my impression, even though I thoroughly love the comic.

Really I think people should listed to chinophile and lighten up a little bit. The juxtaposition of serious plot in what appears to be a very fanciful and light-hearted game, combined with the "switching" of sides for what we assume are the main characters is not only intriguing, but endearing.

Keep up the good work guys, can't wait to see more!
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=12068)

TheUdjat
2006-12-22, 08:51 AM
Some of the posts in this thread make me want to claw out my eyes.

I will take a moment to add my voice to those saying 'Erfworld is cool' because frankly, it is. No, it's not your daily newspaper funnies, but that's what's awesome about it, and it boggles my mind that some people don't understand that, fundamentally speaking, it's just an entirely different concept than OoTS. This is a GOOD thing.

The humor in Erfworld is not really silly, or badly delivered, or even stupid. It's subtle. The world of Erfworld is silly and humorous, but the characters behave in a 'straight man' style, completely unaware of their world's inherent silliness and humor, treating it like everything's normal, which is exactly how it should be. The story wouldn't work in a punchline-a-day format. It's not OoTS. It's Erfworld.

I'm digusted that a number of people have been so outrageously, blatantly disparaging of Erfworld. If you don't like it, don't read it. If you don't like it and want to comment anyway, do it in a positive, helpful way, or at least understand that the problem is not necessarily Erfworld. Ranting about how horrible it is and how much it sucks is uncalled for, and pretty insulting to the creators who visit this page.

The comic is fantastic. The artwork rocks, the environment is very engaging, and the story is developing very smoothly, despite the switch in vantage points. It doesn't throw the humor at you, it lets you find it, and that makes it so much more rewarding in my opinion. It is primarily a story, not a joke. I like that.

So yeah, it's not gonna be for everyone. OoTS isn't either. I love it, my girlfriend (who's more about Call of Cthulhu than D&D) just doesn't get a lot of it, and finds it less interesting. She knows it doesn't suck, though, it's just not her thing. Ditto for some of you guys and Erfworld. So please, don't bash something just because it's not your style. Accept that your tastes differ and move on.

Sebastian Bux
2006-12-22, 09:07 AM
I went into my cookie jar this morning and dug out two more pennies so I could get back into the mix of all this. Here is goes:

I started reading OOTS around issue 60 something. And it is very fair to say that I wasn’t actually “reading” the comic back then. If I recall, a friend of mine sent me an email link to one of the early issues. I remember reading this one page and laughing out loud. At the time I had never hear of Sir Greenhilt, Hailey, little red talking cockroaches, or any of it. But because of that one comic, I was interested enough to go to comic 1 and read some more about OOTS.

What issue are we up to now? 392? I’m still here, still waiting every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday for the next exciting update! That’s how good OOTS is. And let’s face it, we’re all here having this discussion because we love OOTS. If Erfworld wasn’t on this site we most likely wouldn’t be having this conversation in the first place.

So why do I mention this?

Because Erfworld has yet to deliver a single page of WOW for me. Individually, any one of the first 10 OOTS can stand alone as it’s own interesting work, yet each panel lends something to the ones that follow. Erfworld doesn’t have that same pull. It seems fragmented and unrelated.

Here’s another thing…

Rob says this is a story. It’s been proven by better men then me that when writing a story, you need to hook your readers in the first 30 pages (that’s written pages, not comic pages) or you’ll lose the interest of your readers. I’d say that 10 comics is the equivalent of 30 written pages of text.

As a quick aside, for those of you who might disagree with that statement, let me remind any reader of novels that while you can look at one panel of a comic to get the imagery of a scene, in a novel, words must describe what you see. That takes time and pages. You don’t have to take my word for it, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

Erfworld simply has not hooked me. OOTS’ first 10 panels feature the same core group of characters, Erf does not. The writing satire of OOTS’ first 10 panels make me want to read more of the same style, Erfworld does not. OOTS hooks you with it’s writing … not its art, but it’s writing. Erf falls short.

Rob says it’s not about humor but I’m still waiting to see Erfworld take itself seriously. Peeps, stuffed animals, glass figurines, dwagons, insert-a-mancers…. All you’re doing is setting up jokes (and ones that I still contend haven’t gone over well with all your readers). OOTS has a frame of reference, Erfworld has none. This regrettably means that Erfworld has to work harder, faster to establish the setting and set the rules of the universe.

If Erfworld was a novel I picked up at the store and I had taken the time to read the first 30 pages, it would have been put back on the shelf and I would have moved on.

It may not come off this way, but I’m not saying I don’t like it to be mean to Rob. Not at all. I want to present my opinion because maybe there’s a way for him to find a way to put a reader like me back in the story he wants to tell. Don’t cater to me, by any means, but maybe there’s some valid points in here that can help them produce a stronger comic. This is about what I don’t like about Erfworld, that’s all.

And one last thing…

This was already mentioned but it bears repeating to those who made it this far. The people who don’t like Erfworld and have said so have not attacked or criticized the fans who do. However the fans have taken the liberty to do that very thing to the critics. If you want to be a fan of Erfworld then take the time to consider my objections to the comic and tell me why those objections are incorrect. I never attack Rob personally (although I did call him crazy in a different thread, but not because of Erfworld … don’t mess with Star Wars, Rob! :’ )

Don’t make this personal. It’s not about you and me, it’s about you and your opinion about Erfworld and me and my opinion. My opinions are no less valid because you don’t agree with them. If you like Erfworld, I’m glad for you. You get to come to this site to enjoy two comics. What could be bad about that!

Sebastian

Sebastian Bux
2006-12-22, 09:55 AM
Some of the posts in this thread make me want to claw out my eyes.

Here’s what’s great about your post (and sorry to pick on you, but you’re the best example)... You’re doing exactly the same thing to us (Erfworld critics) that you say we’re doing to Erfworld. Allow me to enlighten you.


I will take a moment to add my voice to those saying 'Erfworld is cool' because frankly, it is.

In your opinion….


No, it's not your daily newspaper funnies, but that's what's awesome about it

hmmm, I’m thinking this is your opinion….


and it boggles my mind that some people don't understand that, fundamentally speaking, it's just an entirely different concept than OoTS. This is a GOOD thing.

Mostly your opinion but I love how you think that because I criticize it I don’t “understand” it….


The humor in Erfworld is not really silly, or badly delivered, or even stupid.

In your opinion…


It's subtle.

You know, there is a fine line between what is subtle and what is invisible. I would contend that Erfworld has found itself on both sides of that line so far (but then that would be my opinion, wouldn’t it)


The world of Erfworld is silly and humorous, but the characters behave in a 'straight man' style, completely unaware of their world's inherent silliness and humor, treating it like everything's normal,

Okay, a fair perspective, though somewhat subjective….


which is exactly how it should be. The story wouldn't work in a punchline-a-day format.

Well, that’s your opinion….


It's not OoTS. It's Erfworld.

The most profoundly true statement to be found in your post. A brilliant comparison!


I'm digusted that a number of people have been so outrageously, blatantly disparaging of Erfworld. If you don't like it, don't read it.

Thank you … what a great point. Um, just a quick question … doesn’t this also mean that if you don’t like my review/criticism of Erfworld you should not read it? A beautifully put double standard!


If you don't like it and want to comment anyway, do it in a positive, helpful way, or at least understand that the problem is not necessarily Erfworld.

Saying that I think it sucks isn’t very helpful, I’ll agree with you there. However, going on to tell you “why” I think it sucks is more helpful. And yes, it must be me, not Erfworld…. very subtle.


Ranting about how horrible it is and how much it sucks is uncalled for, and pretty insulting to the creators who visit this page.

If you can’t take criticism, then this isn’t the job for you. Let me know when you find that perfect public job where no one criticizes you or your creativity. I want to sign up! And by the way, saying it sucks isn’t really insulting. It may be a strong display of distaste, but it’s not insulting.


The comic is fantastic. The artwork rocks, the environment is very engaging, and the story is developing very smoothly, despite the switch in vantage points. It doesn't throw the humor at you, it lets you find it, and that makes it so much more rewarding in my opinion. (I feel) It is primarily a story, not a joke. I like that.

With the exception of a small addition from me, this is the greatest and best thing you’ve said. Why? Because it’s your opinion on Erfworld, which is what this is really all about. I don’t agree with it, but I completely respect it.


So yeah, it's not gonna be for everyone. OoTS isn't either. I love it, my girlfriend (who's more about Call of Cthulhu than D&D) just doesn't get a lot of it, and finds it less interesting.

Objective…


She knows it doesn't suck, though, it's just not her thing.

Subjective….


Ditto for some of you guys and Erfworld. So please, don't bash something just because it's not your style. Accept that your tastes differ and move on.

But that’s EXACTLY what you’re doing to people with an opinion that differs from yours. Bashing us, but telling us not to bash you back. Your tastes obviously differ from mine but you still felt the need to tell me about how you don’t approve of that. You don’t accept our differences at all.

I hope I made my point here and I hope you understood it. Actually, the point I think I’ve made is that I have too much free time right now. Maybe this all doesn’t mean anything…. in 10,000 years who’s going to remember any of this anyway?

Actually, I know what my point it (I had to reread all of this). My point is, if you have an opinion about Erfworld then please feel free to express it. If you like it, then say so. If you hate it, then say so. But don’t hate on others for exercising their right to do the same. This post doesn’t criticize you for any of these opinions you’ve expressed. This post is about YOU and the way you treat those who’s opinions are different then yours. This goes for everyone here….

AngryGreek
2006-12-22, 10:28 AM
I can't begin to explain enough how much I love the previous two posts (if by chance someone has posted in the interim, I'm referring to the posts by Sebastien Bux).

This guy mirrors my sentiment exactly, in a much more eloquent way that I could ever hope to achieve. However, I disagree with one point. As someone who is trying to get his first novel published, you have far less than 30 pages to captivate a reader, unless your name is Stephen King, Dean Koontz, Anne Rice, etc. Your literary agent needs to want to keep reading by the end of the first page, or you will have no literary agent, and no chance of becoming published.

First impressions count for a lot. That being said, I still keep coming back here in the hopes that Erfworld will grow on me. It hasn't (yet), however I did admit to laughing at the cloth golems. That is the first chuckle in 10 episodes. Compare that with the first 10 episodes of OOTS, where I was issuing multiple laughs per page, and the humour is just not there for me (with Erfworld).

It's been mentioned before that it's not meant to be a comedic piece, then it was defended that the comedy is all over the place and not for everyone. Which is it? It it supposed to be comedic, or is the comedy so advanced that Andy Kaufman would be the only person to truly get it?

I respect that people like it, and have only once lowered myself to actually insulting one individual (boy, did I pay for it, behave AngryGreek, behave!) who infuriated me in his own insults towards those of us who dislike the comic. As Sebastian has stated, we non-fans are not out here insulting the fans. We are voicing our (relevant) opinions about a comic. Even in a thread designed to GET our opinions, we were insulted for our efforts.

The artwork is great, and I know Rob is funny as hell, because I've been to PartiallyClips and laughed my ass off, with tears running down my cheeks at some of his work. I don't know if this is simply not Rob's genre, or if he is still getting a feel for it. I do wish them all the best, but I remain: unimpressed.

urodivoi
2006-12-22, 10:43 AM
I like the skeleton dudes. They are the cutest skellies I have ever seen.

I agree. Obvously I enjoy the art.:smallbiggrin:

Sebastian Bux
2006-12-22, 11:01 AM
In case this matter to anyone, I actually really enjoy "PartiallyClips". I would never have heard of them without Erfworld so there's something positive to come out of Erfworld. I find a majority of the "PartiallyClips" jokes witty and clever.

Alex Star
2006-12-22, 11:37 AM
Cloth Golems have Damage Reduction 10 that can only be penetrated by Small Children...

chionophile
2006-12-22, 11:39 AM
One thing about Erfworld that I've found is that by reading the first ten comics several times and all at once, they get funnier and more understandable. If you're not liking it now, come back in a few weeks and read all of them at once and a couple of times.

Dr._Bob
2006-12-22, 11:44 AM
Perhaps if the "criticisms" were in some way constructive, people would be less inclined to "bash" them.

FWIW, in my opinion, the artwork, storyline, humor, and characters in Erfworld are fantastic. Please don't change a thing! I am sure that there are many other people in the "silent majority" who enjoy the webcomic but don't necessarily post here.

In this case, I hope the "squeaky wheels" don't get the grease ...

Alex Star
2006-12-22, 11:45 AM
As long as the Twolls are done correctly.. thats all I care about LOL...

I believe that Twolls can use the spell-like ability "Incite Webriot" which combines the effects of the spells "Attention Grab, Mass" and "Provoke Attack". Which causes all nearby enemies to focus all offensive attention against them.

This is bad because Twolls gain a +1 to hit and damage for every two enemies attacking them. They also have Damage Reduction Infinite and can only be killed if they are ignored for 3 consecutive turns after which they wither and die.

BTW: If anyone hasn't realized yet I think Erfworld ROCKS!

Mauril Everleaf
2006-12-22, 12:17 PM
I started reading OOTS around issue 60 something. And it is very fair to say that I wasn’t actually “reading” the comic back then. If I recall, a friend of mine sent me an email link to one of the early issues. I remember reading this one page and laughing out loud. At the time I had never hear of Sir Greenhilt, Hailey, little red talking cockroaches, or any of it. But because of that one comic, I was interested enough to go to comic 1 and read some more about OOTS.

What issue are we up to now? 392? I’m still here, still waiting every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday for the next exciting update! That’s how good OOTS is. And let’s face it, we’re all here having this discussion because we love OOTS. If Erfworld wasn’t on this site we most likely wouldn’t be having this conversation in the first place.

okay, so when erfworld gets to issue 392, or heck even issue 60, come back to it and check it again. by then there will be a defined story and more than sketches of the main actors. test it then. if you still dont like it, thats fine, erf just isnt your style. but dont pass out judgement on a fledgling comic, let it grow its own wings.



Erfworld has yet to deliver a single page of WOW for me.

this is like saying that you dont like someone else's five year old child because he has yet to "wow" you with something amazing. a five year old not being a prodigy of some sort is what is called "normal".


Individually, any one of the first 10 OOTS can stand alone as it’s own interesting work, yet each panel lends something to the ones that follow. Erfworld doesn’t have that same pull. It seems fragmented and unrelated.

this is because oots is a serial comic and erfworld is a graphic novel (not my opinion, these are statements made by the creators). a serial comic is designed to be stand alone comics that may or may not have a cohesion beyond having the same characters. most newspaper comics are serial comics, with the exception of the soap opera ones. some do tell stories but the purpose is not the plot, but the characterization and the gag. a graphic novel is simply that, a novel that is graphic based and word driven. the plot develops over time, with gradual characterizations and plot twists. erfworld is strictly a graphic novel. there are jokes interspersed, but the purpose is plot development and eventual characterization. oots crosses this line, which is part of what its appeal is. it has the feel of a serial comic with the plot and characterization of a graphic novel. that is, i feel, the reason that it is so appealing to those that visit this site.


Rob says this is a story. It’s been proven by better men then me that when writing a story, you need to hook your readers in the first 30 pages (that’s written pages, not comic pages) or you’ll lose the interest of your readers. I’d say that 10 comics is the equivalent of 30 written pages of text.

As a quick aside, for those of you who might disagree with that statement, let me remind any reader of novels that while you can look at one panel of a comic to get the imagery of a scene, in a novel, words must describe what you see. That takes time and pages.

yes it is a story, yes it does take time to develop. no it will not develop in the first 10 pages. as i see it, you have apparently never read a graphic novel. in most series (except for short bit series like .hack) the entire first book is an exposition of plot and character. there is no definition in the first chapter, just a basic outlay of the primary players. this is exactly how erfworld is unfolding. even if you assume that these ten pages equal a chapter (which is a really short chapter), you have the basic character and plot sketches for the novel. you know of wanda the croakamancer, apparently deals with some sort of necromancy and works for lord stanley, is level headed and doesnt put up with too much antics (also, as far as comics go, is fairly attractive). there is also lord stanley, a brash, young, not-too-wise leader and quester for the great artifacts of erfworld, the arkentools. then there is prince ansom, a bold and charismatic leader who fits very much into the egocentric pretty boy stereotype, has a thing for jillian. jillian is a bold and assertive female warrior, who doesnt put up with ansom's barely veiled attempts to woo her, she is confident almost to the point of recklessness. you also understand, as far as i can discern, that the plot involves both sides of a war, both sides, presumably, questing for the arkentools, with stanley searching for the perfect commander to defend his nation and lead his quest.

thats a whole frickin lot for 10 pages.


You don’t have to take my word for it, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

nor does it make it any more true. its your opinion or someone else's, but its still just that, an opinion. ive read plenty of novels, which i thoroughly enjoyed, which i didnt start liking until about 1/3 or 1/2 way through. i was not forced to read them, i chose to because i trusted the author to produce a good work. just as i am trusting rob to produce a good work, and in rich for allowing erf to be the first non-oots on his site and that he would not debut something that is not of quality.


Erfworld simply has not hooked me. OOTS’ first 10 panels feature the same core group of characters, Erf does not. The writing satire of OOTS’ first 10 panels make me want to read more of the same style, Erfworld does not. OOTS hooks you with it’s writing … not its art, but it’s writing. Erf falls short.

this is not an issue of quality, but an issue of presentation format. rich chose to make the first several oots be a simple gag-a-day serial style comic with the option to develop into a graphic novel (which he has done quite well, i believe). Erf came right out of the blocks and said that it would not do this. that it would instead set itself up as a story not a joke reel.

Now, this strip will be a little different from The Order of the Stick. While OOTS has an ongoing story, it is also largely a gag comic, with a punchline at the end of (most) every page. Erfworld will be more like a graphic novel, with one page appearing at a time but without a guaranteed joke each and every installment. The humor is more likely to spread over the course of an entire scene; some jokes will take several pages to be told.


Rob says it’s not about humor but I’m still waiting to see Erfworld take itself seriously. Peeps, stuffed animals, glass figurines, dwagons, insert-a-mancers….

he did not say that its not about humor, but rather that humor is a periphery mechanism to the engine of the story. its supposed to be funny, or at least thats what i read from him, jamie and rich. the humor is, as has been stated, in a "straight man" style, wherein the humor come not really from the rediculous situations or objects in the world but from the fact that no one is thrown off by these things. its their lack of reaction that makes it seem more absurd, which is one primary mechanism for deriving humor.


All you’re doing is setting up jokes (and ones that I still contend haven’t gone over well with all your readers). OOTS has a frame of reference, Erfworld has none. This regrettably means that Erfworld has to work harder, faster to establish the setting and set the rules of the universe.

again, i refer to the format that is a graphic novel. because this is a novel presented in serial format (which is sub-optimum in my opinion) readers will tend to, at least subconsciously, think of it as such. if this were presented in a book of a few hundred pages (which graphic novels usually are), there would be little problem discerning that the first ten pages are a mere prologue to the story and that the true development of the story will follow. this is an impatience issue, one that i cannot say that i have not fallen victim to time and again. give it more issues to develop. if this requires that you dont read erfowrld for the next 2 months to let it build a base for you to stand on, then so be it. but dont declare a house to be useless when the foundation is just being poured, wait till the walls and roof have been placed before declaring the quality of the structure.


If Erfworld was a novel I picked up at the store and I had taken the time to read the first 30 pages, it would have been put back on the shelf and I would have moved on.

however you have not read the first 30 pages, you have read the first 10. the reason that the first 30 pages is used as a benchmark is that 30 pages usually encompases the first chapter, or two small chapters. wait until the first chapter of this novel is complete before passing judgement. if you still dont like it then, feel free to "put it back on the shelf and move on".


It may not come off this way, but I’m not saying I don’t like it to be mean to Rob. Not at all. I want to present my opinion because maybe there’s a way for him to find a way to put a reader like me back in the story he wants to tell. Don’t cater to me, by any means, but maybe there’s some valid points in here that can help them produce a stronger comic. This is about what I don’t like about Erfworld, that’s all.

and that's totally your right to do. however, if rob does not change his story, realize that this is not because your ideas weren't valid, but because it is his vision and his project and he can choose to do whatever he wishes with it. if he decides to write something that no one on the planet besides his mother would read, and thats just to be nice, then he is allowed to do that. that is the purpose of art, to express what one wants to express. it doesnt matter if you have an audience to appreciate it, although that is always nice (and in the world of capitalism, profitable).



This was already mentioned but it bears repeating to those who made it this far. The people who don’t like Erfworld and have said so have not attacked or criticized the fans who do. However the fans have taken the liberty to do that very thing to the critics. If you want to be a fan of Erfworld then take the time to consider my objections to the comic and tell me why those objections are incorrect.

i agree that bashing other posters is not acceptable, and i apologize if i have done so. however, consider this. if someone decides to disparage something that you enjoy or take pride in, such as your home town, school, job, affiliated organization or whatever, you tend to become defensive. that is human nature. this is how those who post here feel (or at least this is what i assume. those who have joined the forums feel a personal connection and/or attachment to the things on this site.) if someone were to tell you that they hated oots and that it sucked beyond that which is bearable by mankind and should be considered a crime against humanity, you would take much offense to that. however, if someone were to tell you that they liked a movie that you thought was stupid, boring, fractured, ill-planed and poorly acted you would not have an adverse reaction to them (unless you bore an extreme hatred and they expressed an undying passion for it), you would just disregard their opinion and hold to your own. it is human nature to think that what you like should be universal, while that which you dislike (not hate, just dislike) is a matter of personal opinion. obviously there are exceptions to this, but this could be applied as a general rule.


Don’t make this personal. It’s not about you and me, it’s about you and your opinion about Erfworld and me and my opinion. My opinions are no less valid because you don’t agree with them. If you like Erfworld, I’m glad for you. You get to come to this site to enjoy two comics. What could be bad about that!

i would not say that your opinion about liking or not liking the comic is less valid than mine, nor would any rational person who realize that that's the purpose of opinions.

as a final note, the above post is strictly my opinion or my interpretation of the facts presented. my word is not scripture, nor was it intented to be. this is merely a rebuttal, an expression of my feelings in a reasoned and relatively dispassionate form as a response to the quoted post and many previous posts as are applicable. feel free to rebut my post, however, i ask you to do so with equal reason and dispassion. thank you.


Sebastian
Mauril

chionophile
2006-12-22, 12:22 PM
Any chance that we'll get official Erfworld avatars? I would love one of Jillian and her maniacal Twoll killing grin.

Mariana
2006-12-22, 12:30 PM
I really don't understand the 'need' of some people to come here and post things like; "I hate Erfworld" or "Erfworld sucks". If you don't like it, don't read it, don't look at it, and please don't post this kind of comment in threads that were supposed to discuss the most recent strips.

jami
2006-12-22, 12:32 PM
Any chance that we'll get official Erfworld avatars? I would love one of Jillian and her maniacal Twoll killing grin.

There's an Erfworld avatar thread over in the Art & Crafts section. You can make a request and they'll hook you up! And man, they're doing some great stuff over there.

Sebastian Bux
2006-12-22, 12:43 PM
There's no quick response to your post, Mauril. But the brief response is to say you've missed my point on many levels and it will simply take a longer period of time to properly respond. To be continued...

AngryGreek
2006-12-22, 01:01 PM
I really don't understand the 'need' of some people to come here and post things like; "I hate Erfworld" or "Erfworld sucks". If you don't like it, don't read it, don't look at it, and please don't post this kind of comment in threads that were supposed to discuss the most recent strips.

I really don't understand the 'need' of some people to come here and post things like "I don't understand th need of some people to come here and post things like "I hate Erfworld" or "Erfworld sucks" " If you don't like what we are saying, don't read it, don't look at it, and please don't respond to anything we write in this thread which is supposed to discuss the most recent strips.

I truly hope my point has been made.

Sebastian Bux
2006-12-22, 01:40 PM
okay, so when erfworld gets to issue 392, or heck even issue 60, come back to it and check it again. by then there will be a defined story and more than sketches of the main actors. test it then. if you still dont like it, thats fine, erf just isnt your style. but dont pass out judgement on a fledgling comic, let it grow its own wings.

You missed my point here. My point was that the first 10 issues (of OOTS) were as strong as issue 60 something. Sure, 60 something had more to offer because the story was moving well along by that time, but 1 through 10 were equally strong.


Quote:
Erfworld has yet to deliver a single page of WOW for me.

this is like saying that you dont like someone else's five year old child because he has yet to "wow" you with something amazing. a five year old not being a prodigy of some sort is what is called "normal".

Terrible example, but I’ll work with it… It’s like someone showing me a five year old and saying “My kid is so great, listen to them play this song on the piano.” And then the kid sits down and plays 10 notes in 10 minutes. You look at the parent quizzically and they respond, “no, no… just wait till you hear the bridge!” Yeah, Elfworld is kinda like that.


this is because oots is a serial comic and erfworld is a graphic novel (not my opinion, these are statements made by the creators). a serial comic is designed to be stand alone comics that may or may not have a cohesion beyond having the same characters. most newspaper comics are serial comics, with the exception of the soap opera ones. some do tell stories but the purpose is not the plot, but the characterization and the gag. a graphic novel is simply that, a novel that is graphic based and word driven. the plot develops over time, with gradual characterizations and plot twists. erfworld is strictly a graphic novel. there are jokes interspersed, but the purpose is plot development and eventual characterization. oots crosses this line, which is part of what its appeal is. it has the feel of a serial comic with the plot and characterization of a graphic novel. that is, i feel, the reason that it is so appealing to those that visit this site.

This would support my claim elsewhere that Erfworld needs more in each update then we are given. Basically what you are saying here is that Erfworld is a graphic novel being presented in a serial comic style. I would contend that this is not working in Erfworld’s favor.

Want a good example of this? Go into your local comic shop and look at the graphic novels. Find one you’ve never read but have heard was pretty good (or ask the shop owner). Open it up and read the first page. Now close the book and come back in two days. Read the second page, close the book and come back in five more days and read page three. Come back in two… read one... come back in five…

How’s that graphic novel working out for you?


yes it is a story, yes it does take time to develop. no it will not develop in the first 10 pages. as i see it, you have apparently never read a graphic novel.

Incorrect….


in most series (except for short bit series like .hack) the entire first book is an exposition of plot and character. there is no definition in the first chapter, just a basic outlay of the primary players. this is exactly how erfworld is unfolding. even if you assume that these ten pages equal a chapter (which is a really short chapter), you have the basic character and plot sketches for the novel. you know of wanda the croakamancer, apparently deals with some sort of necromancy and works for lord stanley, is level headed and doesnt put up with too much antics (also, as far as comics go, is fairly attractive). there is also lord stanley, a brash, young, not-too-wise leader and quester for the great artifacts of erfworld, the arkentools. then there is prince ansom, a bold and charismatic leader who fits very much into the egocentric pretty boy stereotype, has a thing for jillian. jillian is a bold and assertive female warrior, who doesnt put up with ansom's barely veiled attempts to woo her, she is confident almost to the point of recklessness. you also understand, as far as i can discern, that the plot involves both sides of a war, both sides, presumably, questing for the arkentools, with stanley searching for the perfect commander to defend his nation and lead his quest.

This is always my favorite argument by some of the fans. Yeah, I read the character bios too. You make a lot of inferences about these characters that the bios mostly supported for you. Are there character bios for OOTS? I’ve never had to look at them once. The story has always revealed everything I ever needed to know about the players. See my comment about early Elan elsewhere in a post I’ve made. But basically all the character development I’ve seen so far has really come from the bios, not the comic.


Quote:
You don’t have to take my word for it, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

nor does it make it any more true. its your opinion or someone else's, but its still just that, an opinion.

Well, that’s basically the perfect counter argument to my statement ;’)


ive read plenty of novels, which i thoroughly enjoyed, which i didnt start liking until about 1/3 or 1/2 way through. i was not forced to read them, i chose to because i trusted the author to produce a good work. just as i am trusting rob to produce a good work, and in rich for allowing erf to be the first non-oots on his site and that he would not debut something that is not of quality.

Maybe it’s that trust is earned for me, not freely given. I trust Rich as far as his own comic goes, because he has proven time and again that he knows what he’s doing with it. I’ll never forget the time he posted in the forum the Miko fight from his perspective. I know he thinks about everything (or tries to) in OOTS. I respect that and I trust it. He’s earned it.

And as far as you reading books … guess you’ve never read a bad one. Lucky you.


this is not an issue of quality, but an issue of presentation format. rich chose to make the first several oots be a simple gag-a-day serial style comic with the option to develop into a graphic novel (which he has done quite well, i believe). Erf came right out of the blocks and said that it would not do this. that it would instead set itself up as a story not a joke reel.

Well, that’s why OOTS is doing great to this day and I think Erfworld sucks. Rich said, “Let me hook them early and then give them a reason to stay.” Rob seems to be saying, “I’ll hook you eventually, just stay around and I promise you’ll like it sometime.” Well, good thing he’s got the OOTS zealots to help him get to that “eventually”.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Giant
Now, this strip will be a little different from The Order of the Stick. While OOTS has an ongoing story, it is also largely a gag comic, with a punchline at the end of (most) every page. Erfworld will be more like a graphic novel, with one page appearing at a time but without a guaranteed joke each and every installment. The humor is more likely to spread over the course of an entire scene; some jokes will take several pages to be told.

Quote: Me
Rob says it’s not about humor but I’m still waiting to see Erfworld take itself seriously. Peeps, stuffed animals, glass figurines, dwagons, insert-a-mancers….

he did not say that its not about humor, but rather that humor is a periphery mechanism to the engine of the story. its supposed to be funny, or at least thats what i read from him, jamie and rich. the humor is, as has been stated, in a "straight man" style, wherein the humor come not really from the rediculous situations or objects in the world but from the fact that no one is thrown off by these things. its their lack of reaction that makes it seem more absurd, which is one primary mechanism for deriving humor.

I’m saying this straight up, right now. Comedy, in EVERY form, is all about timing. A joke, even the “straight man” style you mention, requires very precise timing. Rob is great at developing a joke over three panels (see “Partially Clips) but I would contend with some confidence that he hasn’t quite gotten this long term joke telling thing down. One page at a time is going to kill this comic (I feel).


again, i refer to the format that is a graphic novel. because this is a novel presented in serial format (which is sub-optimum in my opinion) readers will tend to, at least subconsciously, think of it as such. if this were presented in a book of a few hundred pages (which graphic novels usually are), there would be little problem discerning that the first ten pages are a mere prologue to the story and that the true development of the story will follow. this is an impatience issue, one that i cannot say that i have not fallen victim to time and again. give it more issues to develop. if this requires that you dont read erfowrld for the next 2 months to let it build a base for you to stand on, then so be it. but dont declare a house to be useless when the foundation is just being poured, wait till the walls and roof have been placed before declaring the quality of the structure.

We don’t completely agree here, but I do feel we’re on the same page at least. Of course, a lot of this discussion could have been shortened if you just made this point earlier and have been done with it.


Quote:
If Erfworld was a novel I picked up at the store and I had taken the time to read the first 30 pages, it would have been put back on the shelf and I would have moved on.

however you have not read the first 30 pages, you have read the first 10. the reason that the first 30 pages is used as a benchmark is that 30 pages usually encompases the first chapter, or two small chapters. wait until the first chapter of this novel is complete before passing judgement. if you still dont like it then, feel free to "put it back on the shelf and move on".

You missed my point again. I clearly mentioned previously that I felt 10 pages of a comic were equal to about 30 pages of novel text. So, like I said above, if Erfworld was a novel (i.e. all text, a book, not a comic) and I read the first 30 pages (which is like reading the comic now, which is only 10 pages) I’d put it down and move on.



and that's totally your right to do. however, if rob does not change his story, realize that this is not because your ideas weren't valid, but because it is his vision and his project and he can choose to do whatever he wishes with it. if he decides to write something that no one on the planet besides his mother would read, and thats just to be nice, then he is allowed to do that. that is the purpose of art, to express what one wants to express. it doesnt matter if you have an audience to appreciate it, although that is always nice (and in the world of capitalism, profitable).

Hey, it’s his comic, do what he wants. You can’t please everyone.


i agree that bashing other posters is not acceptable, and i apologize if i have done so.

I don’t feel bashed by you at all. One of the most intelligent rebuttals posted. Do me a big favor though… learn to capitalize your sentences. You lose some of the weight to your argument when you don’t write like an adult. Of course, if you’re only 5, then let me say you’ve sure WOW’d me!

Now that’s timing! Class dismissed.


however, consider this. if someone decides to disparage something that you enjoy or take pride in, such as your home town, school, job, affiliated organization or whatever, you tend to become defensive. that is human nature. this is how those who post here feel (or at least this is what i assume. those who have joined the forums feel a personal connection and/or attachment to the things on this site.) if someone were to tell you that they hated oots and that it sucked beyond that which is bearable by mankind and should be considered a crime against humanity, you would take much offense to that.

Taking offense is one thing, but how you conduct yourself is another thing entirely. I’m an adult and I know how to manage my anger. Just because we all can understand the emotion doesn’t necessarily forgive the poor behavior.


however, if someone were to tell you that they liked a movie that you thought was stupid, boring, fractured, ill-planed and poorly acted you would not have an adverse reaction to them (unless you bore an extreme hatred and they expressed an undying passion for it), you would just disregard their opinion and hold to your own. it is human nature to think that what you like should be universal, while that which you dislike (not hate, just dislike) is a matter of personal opinion. obviously there are exceptions to this, but this could be applied as a general rule.

Well, I’d probably try to understand what they could possibly see in that bad movie, and tell them why I thought it was crap. Then, if I didn’t “show them the light”, I’d agree to disagree with them and then in my head probably think they were an idiot for not seeing it my way, which is obviously correct :’)

By the way, let me just say that I was really excited to read this comic (Erfworld) when I first saw the character bios and the concept art. I thought that the idea sounded great. It’s the execution I find lacking.


i would not say that your opinion about liking or not liking the comic is less valid than mine, nor would any rational person who realize that that's the purpose of opinions.

as a final note, the above post is strictly my opinion or my interpretation of the facts presented. my word is not scripture, nor was it intented to be. this is merely a rebuttal, an expression of my feelings in a reasoned and relatively dispassionate form as a response to the quoted post and many previous posts as are applicable. feel free to rebut my post, however, i ask you to do so with equal reason and dispassion. thank you.

Done and done!

IronMouse
2006-12-22, 02:32 PM
Perhaps if the "criticisms" were in some way constructive, people would be less inclined to "bash" them.

FWIW, in my opinion, the artwork, storyline, humor, and characters in Erfworld are fantastic. Please don't change a thing! I am sure that there are many other people in the "silent majority" who enjoy the webcomic but don't necessarily post here.

In this case, I hope the "squeaky wheels" don't get the grease ...
I have managed to red quite a few posts here that were constructive. What I have noticed is that these tend to be ignored or worse lumped together with the one line throw away posts and then the authors of those posts are promptly attacked. And the attack a sadly is both personal and boils down to “how dare you have a different opinion than me”

Alex Star
2006-12-22, 02:35 PM
LOL @ getting upset about other peoples opinions....

ROFL @ arguing about who's opinion is right....

ROFLMFAO @ arguing over who has the right to criticize or not criticize who's opinion...

Annoyed @ arguing over who has the right to express their opinion...

Extremely Annoyed @ people quoting the opinions of others in order to find holes in their opinions...

Dissapointed @ many of the posters in this thread.

IronMouse
2006-12-22, 03:08 PM
this is like saying that you dont like someone else's five year old child because he has yet to "wow" you with something amazing. a five year old not being a prodigy of some sort is what is called "normal". I think it is more like watching the pilot of a new television series and, having failed to become interested, not “tuning in next week”.




this is because oots is a serial comic and erfworld is a graphic novel (not my opinion, these are statements made by the creators). a serial comic is designed to be stand alone comics that may or may not have a cohesion beyond having the same characters.
I think it is more like watching the pilot of a new television series and, having failed to become interested, not “tuning in next week”.

Then it has failed in the primary mission of that and similar works. It has failed to provide a literary hook. Something to grab the readers attention and compel him/her to continue reading. A few posts ago Sebastian_Bux suggested that a novel has 30 pages to interest a reader…From what I have read and from what those in the publishing business it is more like three pages.

J.K. Rowling does this in “Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone”. In the first three pages we are presented with one character (Mr. Dursely) it is made clear that the is not the likable sort, and a mystery is presented in strange happenings going on around our one character.

Dan Brown hooks people in the first three pages of “The Da Vinci Code”…in less than three pages actually as his first chapter is only two and a half pages long. In that short time we witness the brutal murder of the curator of the Louve museum and learn that he is the last holder of some ancient secret and he has minutes to find a way to pass on his secret

Robert Jordan does it in The Wheel of Time. In three pages we get drawn in reading about how an isolated farm is being attacked by an unknown and unseen terror.

Without the hooks how many people would have continued on with these books? A few maybe but not all.




[/quote]
yes it is a story, yes it does take time to develop. no it will not develop in the first 10 pages. as i see it, you have apparently never read a graphic novel. in most series (except for short bit series like .hack) the entire first book is an exposition of plot and character. there is no definition in the first chapter, just a basic outlay of the primary players. this is exactly how erfworld is unfolding. even if you assume that these ten pages equal a chapter (which is a really short chapter), you have the basic character and plot sketches for the novel. [/quote] The graphic novels I’ve read certainly have put out the hook…usually on the first page.

This is sort of like telling a television audience that no actual story will be presented in the first season



you know of wanda the croakamancer, apparently deals with some sort of necromancy and works for lord stanley, is level headed and doesnt put up with too much antics (also, as far as comics go, is fairly attractive). there is also lord stanley, a brash, young, not-too-wise leader and quester for the great artifacts of erfworld, the arkentools. then there is prince ansom, a bold and charismatic leader who fits very much into the egocentric pretty boy stereotype, has a thing for jillian. jillian is a bold and assertive female warrior, who doesnt put up with ansom's barely veiled attempts to woo her, she is confident almost to the point of recklessness. you also understand, as far as i can discern, that the plot involves both sides of a war, both sides, presumably, questing for the arkentools, with stanley searching for the perfect commander to defend his nation and lead his quest.
A lot of characters…but sadly no reason to care about them or be interested in what they are doing






he did not say that its not about humor, but rather that humor is a periphery mechanism to the engine of the story. its supposed to be funny, or at least thats what i read from him, jamie and rich. the humor is, as has been stated, in a "straight man" style, wherein the humor come not really from the rediculous situations or objects in the world but from the fact that no one is thrown off by these things. its their lack of reaction that makes it seem more absurd, which is one primary mechanism for deriving humor. If you have to explain humor…its not humor




again, i refer to the format that is a graphic novel. because this is a novel presented in serial format (which is sub-optimum in my opinion) readers will tend to, at least subconsciously, think of it as such. if this were presented in a book of a few hundred pages (which graphic novels usually are), there would be little problem discerning that the first ten pages are a mere prologue to the story and that the true development of the story will follow. this is an impatience issue, one that i cannot say that i have not fallen victim to time and again. give it more issues to develop. if this requires that you dont read erfowrld for the next 2 months to let it build a base for you to stand on, then so be it. but dont declare a house to be useless when the foundation is just being poured, wait till the walls and roof have been placed before declaring the quality of the structure. Why should the serial presentation matter to the development of the story line? If a story fails to catch a reader’s interest why should it be assumed that if you just wait six months and try reading it again everything will be so much better? The opening will be the same…as will the lack of a narrative hook.




however you have not read the first 30 pages, you have read the first 10. the reason that the first 30 pages is used as a benchmark is that 30 pages usually encompases the first chapter, or two small chapters. wait until the first chapter of this novel is complete before passing judgement. if you still dont like it then, feel free to "put it back on the shelf and move on". The benchmark is actually three pages…editors are much harsher…they require a manuscript to be interesting on the first page.




i agree that bashing other posters is not acceptable, and i apologize if i have done so. however, consider this. if someone decides to disparage something that you enjoy or take pride in, such as your home town, school, job, affiliated organization or whatever, you tend to become defensive. that is human nature. this is how those who post here feel (or at least this is what i assume. those who have joined the forums feel a personal connection and/or attachment to the things on this site.) if someone were to tell you that they hated oots and that it sucked beyond that which is bearable by mankind and should be considered a crime against humanity, you would take much offense to that. Why would I or anyone else be offended? It is a web comic…nothing more. and yes I have friends say that they don’t like OOTS…even hate the concept of it. Yet somehow, I managed to not insult or berate my friends and neither did I feel compelled to argue with them about their tastes.






i would not say that your opinion about liking or not liking the comic is less valid than mine, nor would any rational person who realize that that's the purpose of opinions. You technically did.

Silencer
2006-12-22, 03:18 PM
And is that an invisi-otter/ferret/panda I see? Can't wait to see them in combat.


You won't.

They're invisible!

Cymraegmorgan
2006-12-22, 04:20 PM
Perhaps if the "criticisms" were in some way constructive, people would be less inclined to "bash" them.
..

Why should my criticism be constructive?
Is the author going to changehis style based on my likes or dislikes? Doubt it.
In my opinion Erfworld sucks.
It is enough for the powers that be to know alot of people agree with me. Certainly not everyone, but plenty.
Shoddy storytelling, ho-hum art, badly done characters. I do not need to give it another chance.
They failed to win me over.

Khantalas
2006-12-22, 04:22 PM
And if I had given OotS a "10-strip grace", I wouldn't be reading it today. And I would miss a lot.

It is your right to not like the comic, and voice your opinion, and my right to think you're wrong and voice my opinion.

AngryGreek
2006-12-22, 04:23 PM
Well, one thing you can say about Erfworld.. like it or not (and I don't, just in case some of you were wondering) it DOES have people talking. I think the creators should be pleased with themselves, they have a big and strong fan base already. This sort of devotion so early on is, well, unheard of. Thanks be to Giant ;).

AngryGreek
2006-12-22, 04:26 PM
And if I had given OotS a "10-strip grace", I wouldn't be reading it today. And I would miss a lot.

Seriously. Are you saying that you didn't laugh once in the first 10 strips? I suppose it's possible. OOTS started out as an individual gag per strip, and developed into a story driven comic while still holding onto good gags and giving tons of props to d&d players, fans of princess bride, and even the occasional tip of the hat to final fantasy fans.

I don't see it with OOTS. To me (and this is just my opinion) if you didn't find the first 10 strips funny, I don't see there is much more to laugh about. There is more story, agreed, but not necessarily more humour.

*EDIT* Cripes! I'm still a bloody Pixie in the playground! AngryGreek doesn't like being a Pixie. AngryGreek wants to be a troll, or an ogre, or something else a little more menacing than a bloody Pixie? (no, Giant et. al., this is not an invitation to downgrade my status to brownie, LOL)

Khantalas
2006-12-22, 04:43 PM
I laughed. I laughed a lot. I also laughed at EGS, Dominic Deegan, 8-Bit Theatre and Ctrl Alt Delete. But I knew I would have a lot to see already posted when I began. And I doubt any would be able to capture my interest that quickly if I were to be patient.

I actually got hooked on OotS about when Xykon appeared. And that was not in the first 10 strips. There wasn't even a story in the first 10 strips. Neither was there a story in EGS, Dominic Deegan and 8-Bit Theatre in the first 10 strips. (CAD never had a story, so that's an another matter entirely). But I kept on reading. And I always found something to get me hooked for the rest.

Now, Erfworld got me hooked on about 4 or something. That doesn't mean it's better than OotS. But OotS took longer doing that.

What hooked me? Creativity. OotS is a creative story. As I see it, Erfworld is creative, too. Sure, it may have some silly moments, but they don't break the fourth wall, and it makes them much more funnier, IMHO.

So, yes, I laughed.

Sebastian Bux
2006-12-22, 05:37 PM
Alright .. I'm just going to go out and say this because it's only fair after all these posts that I do so:

Erfworld isn't terrible. And actually, it doesn't suck.

So I decided, after however many hours of debating this with people, that I'd go back and reread them (all ten issues) again. After doing so, I decided not that I like Erfworld, but that I may have been a little too harsh about the comic.

In all fairness, Erfworld suffers from one major flaw: Timing.

This is two fold. One is that there are only two strips a week. If you look at the first 6 issues, which were released all at once, you'll see the 4th, 5th, and 6th issue are all one part of hte story. I was thinking that I didn't recall when i read all six of them the first time that I hated it so I wanted to know why I felt so strongly now.

Seriously, it's the timing. Even if it just came down to two pages per update I'd think you're looking at a better comic.

The second part of this timing thing is how it effects jokes. Waiting two days for the punchline really killed the joke for me. The cloth golem thing was really quite amusing, but all of that energy was wasted because I had to be reminded somewhere that the fact they were cloth golems at all was mentioned in comic 9. Imagine if we had gotten the whole joke in one sitting how much stronger it would have been.

Look, this isn't my favorite publication in the world, that much is obvious. And there are still other minor flaws that I'm not fond of. But I said that I thought this comic was terrible and I was wrong. Because of that I'm willing to give them a few more issues to sell me on it. i know this doesn't mean anything to anyone but me, but I thought I'd say it anyway.

The writings not really bad at all, it just needs to be tightened. I think because I had this much dialog on the strip it's really kinda hard to consider not reading it. Now I want to see if my arguements continue to be founded or not. Time will tell...

Ikkitosen
2006-12-22, 06:27 PM
LOL @ getting upset about other peoples opinions....

ROFL @ arguing about who's opinion is right....

ROFLMFAO @ arguing over who has the right to criticize or not criticize who's opinion...

Annoyed @ arguing over who has the right to express their opinion...

Extremely Annoyed @ people quoting the opinions of others in order to find holes in their opinions...

Dissapointed @ many of the posters in this thread.

QFT.







(Extra characters)

Demented
2006-12-22, 06:37 PM
It's too bad that Wikiquote is restricted to "notable" people, because that quote deserves to be struck in the tablet of history as the penultimate answer to the human condition.

Harr
2006-12-22, 06:47 PM
It is, obviously, ridiculously early to be making any kind of judgement regarding plot or character development. I think the person originally bringing 'character development' up as a point really meant something else which he didn't really know how to express. But what is there, has a lot of potential for development, both in plot and in characters.

Aside from that, I agree with Bux, mostly. I want to like the comic. I keep comic back (and I will keep coming back) looking for more and to give it another chance. I love the turn-based fantasy setting. I love the art. I enjoy the characters and their personalities very much. I find the atmosphere slightly mesmerizing in general.

But oh, the jokes... oh, man, the jokes. Whew.

It's like... I can see the joke. It's right there. In front of me. But I can't feel the joke, or taste the joke, or experience the joke. It's like, encased in a little glass case in a museum somewhere inside the comic universe, somewhere where I can look at it, and study it, and analyze it, and I can understand on an intellectual level what the author wanted to do with it, but....... no.

Every joke so far has had me going, 'ooohh, I wouldn't have done it quite like that.' And I don't know why; Im not usually an overly analytical person; reading OOTS or Sluggy or The Noob usually has me belly laughing on my butt with my legs wiggling in the air. But with Erfworld for some reason I end up deconstructing every joke and finding the little detail or the small timing misstep that would have made it work.

(EDIT -> Let me bring up ONE exception to that, which was the Hoffa joke, which I found excellent.)

I'm not going to post any of these joke 'studies' since I already posted one in the past and it did not go over well at all, but suffice to say, from where I'm standing it looks like the author is experimenting with a medium, a theme, or a particular type of humor or story that he's not familiar with, and he hasn't quite found his rhythm with it yet, and it shows.

He also seems to be trying just a little bit hard to cater to the 'gamer/forum kids' audience, which is possibly a new demographic for him, judging by Partially Clips (which is brilliant btw), and that comes across as well. At the risk of once again coming off badly, the ORLY joke had a feeling of "Hey kids look, it's the ORLY Owl! You kids all like that stuff, right?! The ORLY owl from the forums! It's funny right?!" rather than a feeling of the author actually knowing and understanding the joke behind the owl.

However, all this is just good news, since it's only a matter of time before the author does find his groove and everything starts to turn around into better quality, better timing, and a better comic-experience for everyone. I'm rooting for it. That is why I'll continue to come and read.

Demented
2006-12-22, 07:00 PM
"Hey kids look, it's the ORLY Owl! You kids all like that stuff, right?! The ORLY owl from the forums! It's funny right?!"

Curse you and your prodigious ranks in Craft (Derisively Humorous Mental Image)!
Something inside me is grinning broadly in amusement.

pclips
2006-12-22, 07:38 PM
Look, this isn't my favorite publication in the world, that much is obvious. And there are still other minor flaws that I'm not fond of. But I said that I thought this comic was terrible and I was wrong. Because of that I'm willing to give them a few more issues to sell me on it. i know this doesn't mean anything to anyone but me, but I thought I'd say it anyway.

Means something to me, Sebastian. :smallsmile: All we ask is for that fair chance.

That may mean around 15 or 18 pages. Knowing what's coming, I could also make a solid argument for about the 35 page mark, or the whole first storyline (there's a pretty momentous ending planned). But until the story has run its course, I can't give you my case. This might be a fun thread to uncroak next Summer when the story is completed.

I think you have a tremendously valid point about the timing. It's something we were aware of from this project's inception. But hear me out as to why we're doing it this way.

The page-load timing you're talking about--incremental storytelling--is the achilles heel of all art heavy, story driven webcomics when it comes to developing an audience. Many serious, talented creators out there are stymied when they put comic book and graphic novel style comics online, just because the sites are not sticky. People just don't wander in, read a few pages, and bookmark the site like they do with strips.

It's a problem in the medium Erfworld wants to use, not specifically Erfworld. Of the top 10 or so webcomics for traffic, only Megatokyo pins its primary entertainment value on story. The rest all deliver a punchline every day. And Megatokyo started out as a gag-a-day. No comic whose primary strengths are art and story can beat the top primarily funny comics for traffic. I mean nobody. GiantITP.com gets better traffic than Marvel.com.

Putting up a page-by-page "story comic with humor" sandwiched between the updates of a hugely popular "gag-a-day comic with story" is a webcomics first. So this comic is two big experiments in one:

1. Jamie and I want to see if a story comic can overcome the impatience factor if it does not have to be the main reason for coming to a site. Can it sit there as an extra little bonus, developing at its own pace, and eventually flower and form a fanbase?

and

2. The Giant wants to see if having a not-too-similar but complimentary story comic can boost traffic and interest in GiantITP, and create a second fandom that GiantITP can manage things like book publishing and merchandise for. It's a step forward for GiantITP's growth.

So it's a natural match, good for everyone involved. Hopefully, that includes the fans.

I don't think we were ready for this level of reaction, this soon. I've had some trouble absorbing it. But I have to say, for the most part (and in this thread in particular), the discussion of Erfworld has been pretty respectful and rational. I want to thank everyone for that.

And we hope and believe that as the story unfolds, we will win over a lot of the detractors. Even if that means they refuse to read Erfworld, and trash it every day on the forums, then one day in July 2007 they go back and read the whole story and change their mind.

Greyhame
2006-12-22, 10:30 PM
That may mean around 15 or 18 pages. Knowing what's coming, I could also make a solid argument for about the 35 page mark, or the whole first storyline (there's a pretty momentous ending planned). But until the story has run its course, I can't give you my case. This might be a fun thread to uncroak next Summer when the story is completed.

<snip>

I don't think we were ready for this level of reaction, this soon. I've had some trouble absorbing it. But I have to say, for the most part (and in this thread in particular), the discussion of Erfworld has been pretty respectful and rational. I want to thank everyone for that.

And we hope and believe that as the story unfolds, we will win over a lot of the detractors. Even if that means they refuse to read Erfworld, and trash it every day on the forums, then one day in July 2007 they go back and read the whole story and change their mind.

Unfortunately, impatience is something inherent to web-browsers (people, not software) and in this venue you MUST capture one's attention immediately or be forgotten because of the next spark of interest.

Having given Erfworld 10 strips to try and "wow" me or even "hah" me for that matter, I have to say it fell short. I'll be sticking with OotS and only visiting Erfworld when bored. Sorry.

AngryGreek
2006-12-22, 10:41 PM
Well, following Sebastian's lead, I did reread the entire (to date) Erfworld. It's not spectacular, by any stretch of the imagination. It is, however, FAR more enjoyable when read in sequence at one go than in (what appear to be at the time) disjointed snippets.

My advice is similar to what has already been stated. It would be well worth it to update only once a week, but throw in considerably more content per update.

I still refuse to say that I enjoy the comic (partially because of my own stupid stubborness, and partially because, well, I really don't enjoy it that much), however, I will continue to read it. I will also compare reading it every update vs. reading many episodes at once.

Ikkitosen
2006-12-23, 06:22 AM
As alluded to, the genius of this idea is the fact that Erfworld will get a lot of people reading it that would give up on it were it hosted on its own site. The fact that the link to the comic sits right next to a comic we all love so very much means people will probably "just have another look" quite a lot.

Kudos for the idea (whosever it was), and kudos to Rich for having the confidence and unselfishness to share his not inconsiderable spotlight with the new comic on the block.

TheAnimal
2006-12-23, 07:43 AM
At any rate, I have no official confirmation of this, but the glass animals in the last panel were likely the "tcotchkes" mentioned in Strip #9. For those not in the know, "tchotchke*" is a Yiddish word for knickknacks, kitsch, etc. Glass unicorns and kittens definitely fit the bill.

That one and the cloth golems really cracked me up. :biggrin:

I wasn't too impressed with Erfworld in the beginning, (more like "Meh, not-OOtS not funny.") but over time it kinda grew on me (like a nasty fungal infection). I was first put off by the big-headed characters and the first two strips seemed somewhat confusing and unconnected.
Now that the series is starting to pick up pace, it gets more and more hilariously insane. I mean, three Elvis clones building a world where Uncroaked soldiers fight marshmallow Gwiffons and glass animals? That's just too crazy not to be fun. Damn you Bob and Jamie, now I'm all addicted. :annoyed:

Hamhead8
2006-12-23, 12:07 PM
Hi,

I've never created an account before but thought I should give my two cents.

I love Erfworld and don't want to see a thing changed. :cool: I've apparently wasted enough time playing computer games and on internet forums that the references and jokes make instant sense to me, and I'm loving the artwork. I especially like the heroes changing their magic items around depending on what they are up to next, I'm forever doing that when I play. *thinks fondly of Master Of Magic*

I'm finding it an interesting change of pace from OotS. Now to find me an Erfworld avatar...

Starla
2006-12-23, 12:49 PM
Alright .. I've given this comic 10 issues before commenting...

Erfworld is really quite terrible. It suffers from really poor writing. The story is all over the place and the chacter development is non existant. Nothing makes sense to me. It lacks the true wit and charm of OOTS.

If there was one thing I could say that was positive about it, it would be the artwork. I actually love the art style. The characters and environs are wonderfully drawn. It's a shame such great panels are ruined by a story that goes nowhere. Where OOTS is clever and funny, Erf is just boring and fractured.

I will say that it does feel like a good comic is in there somewhere, but I don't think it's full potential has been realized yet. Actually, I'd settle for someone realizing it's most basic potential. That would be nice.

Anyway, I've probably only got about a few issues left of this thing before I abandon it completely. Hopefully it won't come to that.

Sebastian

You think the character development is non-existant, but I have seen it in every comic except the first and the first was plot exposition. Oots didn't reveal that a plot existed until #13, the first 12 were mainly good for one-liner kind of jokes that could have continued for a while before they got old and repetitive. There was some character development in the beginning of Oots but it was loose and uncommitted until Belkar was not affected by Unholy blight. There was not nearly the depth that Erfworld is going for which meant that Rich could have developed what he loosely established in any direction.

Haley was clearly not in love with Elan when we first meet them--that blossomed over time. Elan's background was developed in strip #50 thanks to Nale. Durkon has some development in #84. Roy got a little from his father when he showed up with the cryptic clue in #15 but there was far more development in my opinion, when Xykon breaks his sword and we get all those flash backs in #113. We get background on Haley in #131. Vaarsuvius and Belkar have character development but we still have almost no background on them. My point is that if it takes 50 strips to 300 strips to develop a character's background and you are expecting it to be apparent in the first 10 you are wasting your time reading Nerfworld.

Then again I like comics like Earthsong, Directions of Destiny, Inverloch etc. and they aren't so focused on humor as much as they are good stories illustrated with beautiful artwork. So that could be why I am much more readily accepting of Nerfworld than you are. And if you want slow plot development try reading Dreamland Chronicles. I like it but he sometimes drags out in 5 comics what a lot of other comic writers do in one comic.

Sebastian Bux
2006-12-23, 02:54 PM
You think the character development is non-existant, but I have seen it in every comic except the first and the first was plot exposition. Oots didn't reveal that a plot existed until #13, the first 12 were mainly good for one-liner kind of jokes that could have continued for a while before they got old and repetitive. There was some character development in the beginning of Oots but it was loose and uncommitted until Belkar was not affected by Unholy blight. There was not nearly the depth that Erfworld is going for which meant that Rich could have developed what he loosely established in any direction.

Haley was clearly not in love with Elan when we first meet them--that blossomed over time. Elan's background was developed in strip #50 thanks to Nale. Durkon has some development in #84. Roy got a little from his father when he showed up with the cryptic clue in #15 but there was far more development in my opinion, when Xykon breaks his sword and we get all those flash backs in #113. We get background on Haley in #131. Vaarsuvius and Belkar have character development but we still have almost no background on them. My point is that if it takes 50 strips to 300 strips to develop a character's background and you are expecting it to be apparent in the first 10 you are wasting your time reading Nerfworld.

Then again I like comics like Earthsong, Directions of Destiny, Inverloch etc. and they aren't so focused on humor as much as they are good stories illustrated with beautiful artwork. So that could be why I am much more readily accepting of Nerfworld than you are. And if you want slow plot development try reading Dreamland Chronicles. I like it but he sometimes drags out in 5 comics what a lot of other comic writers do in one comic.

1 - Did I miss the part where there was a comic name change?

2 - Um, please don't quote me unless you're going to read all of my posts and keep up with the discussion.

Ikkitosen
2006-12-23, 06:26 PM
1 - Did I miss the part where there was a comic name change?

2 - Um, please don't quote me unless you're going to read all of my posts and keep up with the discussion.

1. I think she's just having fun with the name :smallsmile:

2. I politely refer you to the Rules of Posting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=47&a=1).

Dr._Bob
2006-12-24, 02:18 AM
Why should my criticism be constructive?
Is the author going to changehis style based on my likes or dislikes? Doubt it.
In my opinion Erfworld sucks.
It is enough for the powers that be to know alot of people agree with me. Certainly not everyone, but plenty.
Shoddy storytelling, ho-hum art, badly done characters. I do not need to give it another chance.
They failed to win me over.

Criticism doesn't have to be constructive, but my point was that it is less likely to be "bashed" if it is.

Interestingly, I see that some of the more vocal Erfworld-haters seem to be modulating their opinions after giving the strip another chance. Sorry to hear you'll be missing out.

Manga Shoggoth
2006-12-24, 11:57 AM
I can't say that the slow delivery (a page at a time) has turned me off the comic, 'cos it hasn't. I know the the story will develop slowly - it's frustrating, but I will withhold final judgement 'till there is a good chunk of comic to rate.

As to the humour - without the explanations from people in the forums, I would have missed a lot of the jokes (Or misplaced them, since I thought Orly was a French reference). What I will remember, however, is a comment made by my favourite author, which (somewhat paraphrased) goes like this:

There are two approaches to take if one doesn't understand a joke:

(a) This isn't funny! What's the matter with him?
(b) This isn't funny! What's the matter with me?

I am taking great care to choose (b). I am not going to understand many of the jokes - but I 'aint going to let that stop me from enjoying the rest of the story.

MrNexx
2006-12-24, 03:24 PM
Alright .. I've given this comic 10 issues before commenting...


No, you've given it ten pages.

As was said when it was released, this isn't a gag-a-day strip, but more on par with a page from a comic book. Grabbing a random comic from my collection (Wolverine from June 1994), it had 22 pages of story (the rest was ads, letters, etc.). So you've given it slightly under half of an issue to completely and totally entertain you.

I'm forgetting who the author was, but a somewhat famous author, at one point, decided to write a book in public. He sat down in a bookstore and wrote. Published pages as they were done, published chapters as they were done, and so on. Essentially, that's what a webcomic is. Published a page at a time, with limited ability to go back and fix things.

If you don't like Erfworld, fine. My only suggestion is wait about 6 months and come back and read the archives.

ArmorArmadillo
2006-12-24, 06:34 PM
I'm just hoping on this thread, so I apologize if I repeat anything.

Essentially, that's what a webcomic is. Published a page at a time, with limited ability to go back and fix things.
The thing is though, Webcomics don't just get to take 22 pages, (11 Weeks in Erfworld publishing time) to make a single major point. They have to be sensitive to their audience, and give them something in those single pages. OOTS does this with the joke-a-minute comic density it has; it's not just the quality of the jokes, it's the fact that it doesn't just make one per issue and expect you to wait several days for the next one.

Furthermore, the Erfworld comedy just plain sucks. There's no getting around this. I'm happy for you if you like it, but to me, I get nothing.
Starting off, we have the speech impedement. "Dwagons," "Twolls," "Gwiffons"
Then, we have the "Kiddie" appearance, Teddy Bear Golems, Griffons shaped like Peeps, etc.

These are examples of jokes that are funny on the surface, (Or not even remotely funny in the case of Erfworld) but have no real depth or meaning. It's okay to have jokes like that, but they don't really stand up on multiple tellings; so why has Erfworld made them the core of the series. I'm sick of you using W's instead of R's, I saw it the first time, it's not funny!

As for the Miniatures parody, I don't see much. I mean, OOTS is funny because it talks about idiosyncracies in the rules that make us look back and realize how dumb/silly/poorly executed they are in the way we handle them (V's familiar), but Erfworld just quotes the rules directly and tosses them in for background. "This Gwiffon has two move left." I mean, yeah, that's the rule. So what? (By the way, OOTS did that joke in issue 3, so don't say "Erfworld just hasn't gotten there yet.)

Also, it's not a matter that Erfworld is just not going for "gag-a-day" like OOTS because they DO try to have jokes, when you read about "Sourmanders" you can tell it is SUPPOSED to be funny, it just, well, isn't. (It's hard to believe that "Findomancer" is supposed to be some higher, more subtle humor than OOTS)

Well, that's my shtick. I'll continue to read Erfworld just because it's next to OOTS and hope that it picks up, but I doubt that will happen.

I will give it this one thing. "I can taste key lime pie." Was funny. (Although once again, no depth. Just nice little random joke.)

Legendary
2006-12-24, 06:47 PM
11 weeks is 1/5 of a year, silly. 52 weeks is a year. Anyways, I bet you that people who come here after summer, when Erfworld should be done, people will like it a lot more, as when I reread it after page 10, it was very good.

The thing is, it would be better for there to be, say, 8 pages a month, than 2 a week. It would be liked a lot better. Oh, except people would leave because of the wait. Oh well, that's why it's partnered up with OotS. Because standing on its own it won't do well.

MrNexx
2006-12-24, 08:25 PM
The thing is though, Webcomics don't just get to take 22 pages, (11 Weeks in Erfworld publishing times, nearly a year) to make a single major point. They have to be sensitive to their audience, and give them something in those single pages. OOTS does this with the joke-a-minute comic density it has; it's not just the quality of the jokes, it's the fact that it doesn't just make one per issue and expect you to wait several days for the next one.

Not necessarily. As another pointed out, 11 weeks is only a year if you're on Mercury. If they're building something over the course over the course of several pages, then each page does not have to be a tour de force; for a comic I read that is similar, I'd point you to Errant Story. The early pages are very slow, and while there's some humor in them, they aren't specifically about the joke at each page. Megatokyo, I'm told, is even worse about this. "Roomies" and "It's Walky" by David Willis both worked in a similar fashion.


Furthermore, the Erfworld comedy just plain sucks. There's no getting around this. I'm happy for you if you like it, but to me, I get nothing.
Starting off, we have the speech impedement. "Dwagons," "Twolls," "Gwiffons"
Then, we have the "Kiddie" appearance, Teddy Bear Golems, Griffons shaped like Peeps, etc.Translation: "I do not like it. Therefore, it is objectively bad."


so why has Erfworld made them the core of the series. How do you know they're the core of the series? They're present, but they don't seem to be important except to say "these are like those things, but not."

ArmorArmadillo
2006-12-24, 09:03 PM
11 weeks is 1/5 of a year, silly. 52 weeks is a year.
:smallredface: Thank you. Month/Week error, man is my face red.

::edits post to fix::


Translation: "I do not like it. Therefore, it is objectively bad."
Yes, it is just my opinion. No argument here, should have phrased that better and I apologize. I don't mean to say it is objectively bad, as I said I'm happy for anyone who likes it.


How do you know they're the core of the series? They're present, but they don't seem to be important except to say "these are like those things, but not."
It's one thing when someone shoots out a joke and then leaves it. But every name we see in the series is a variation on this one gag, it gets a bit stale.

WampaX
2006-12-24, 09:25 PM
*Points at Girl Genius (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/).

*Points at Erfworld.

*Compares their presentation mediums as similar in scope and fashion.

MrNexx
2006-12-24, 09:46 PM
It's one thing when someone shoots out a joke and then leaves it. But every name we see in the series is a variation on this one gag, it gets a bit stale.

Then you have something called "consistency".

danielf
2006-12-26, 08:52 AM
i like the Hippiemancers, they are cool :)

Mauril Everleaf
2006-12-26, 11:04 AM
And if I had given OotS a "10-strip grace", I wouldn't be reading it today. And I would miss a lot.

It is your right to not like the comic, and voice your opinion, and my right to think you're wrong and voice my opinion.

for once, khan, you and i agree.


The thing is though, Webcomics don't just get to take 22 pages, (11 Weeks in Erfworld publishing time) to make a single major point. They have to be sensitive to their audience, and give them something in those single pages. OOTS does this with the joke-a-minute comic density it has; it's not just the quality of the jokes, it's the fact that it doesn't just make one per issue and expect you to wait several days for the next one.

Ummm, thats exactly what oots does. it makes one joke and then you wait for the next comic for the next joke. what erf does is make a joke or reference to a joke, then exapnds on or finishes it in later strips.


These are examples of jokes that are funny on the surface, (Or not even remotely funny in the case of Erfworld) but have no real depth or meaning. It's okay to have jokes like that, but they don't really stand up on multiple tellings; so why has Erfworld made them the core of the series. I'm sick of you using W's instead of R's, I saw it the first time, it's not funny!

why are they funny in other comics but not funny here? bias much? also i refer you to the the w's for r's count (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29469&page=3&p=1709474) in the comic as of comic 10 (i havent done it yet for comic 11, but there are no substitutions in that one, so the % goes down further).


As for the Miniatures parody, I don't see much. I mean, OOTS is funny because it talks about idiosyncracies in the rules that make us look back and realize how dumb/silly/poorly executed they are in the way we handle them (V's familiar), but Erfworld just quotes the rules directly and tosses them in for background. "This Gwiffon has two move left." I mean, yeah, that's the rule. So what? (By the way, OOTS did that joke in issue 3, so don't say "Erfworld just hasn't gotten there yet.)

this is simply explained. erfworld is not necessarily an expostion on the rules of gaming, as oots was originally set out to be. it is a story based, art intensive comic with a gaming framework. thats where differences in style come to play. do not expect erfworld to be oots. all that does is set you up for disappointment. two things that are different are just that, different. let them be. if you dont like erfoworld based on its own merits, thats fine. but you shouldnt say "i hate it because its not oots" because, by that logic, you hate every other webcomic because they are also not oots. only oots is oots.


Also, it's not a matter that Erfworld is just not going for "gag-a-day" like OOTS because they DO try to have jokes, when you read about "Sourmanders" you can tell it is SUPPOSED to be funny, it just, well, isn't. (It's hard to believe that "Findomancer" is supposed to be some higher, more subtle humor than OOTS)

rob himself said that there will be a wide range of humor in erfworld. things like "findomancer" which are childish funny, "orly" which alludes to web forum and out-dated pop humor, and things like "hoffa" and "livingston" as more intellectual humor. then they toss in absurdities like cloth golems and animate marshmellow peeps and have the characters treat them like normal, everyday things which adds another layer of humor. if you cant find anything funny in the myriad of humor styles, at least appreciate rob's attempts. im not saying that you have to like it, just dont bash the creator for his art.


I will give it this one thing. "I can taste key lime pie." Was funny.

agreed. i laughed a lot at that one.

Darth Paradox
2007-01-05, 02:51 PM
As for the Miniatures parody, I don't see much. I mean, OOTS is funny because it talks about idiosyncracies in the rules that make us look back and realize how dumb/silly/poorly executed they are in the way we handle them (V's familiar), but Erfworld just quotes the rules directly and tosses them in for background. "This Gwiffon has two move left." I mean, yeah, that's the rule. So what? (By the way, OOTS did that joke in issue 3, so don't say "Erfworld just hasn't gotten there yet.)

Also, it's not a matter that Erfworld is just not going for "gag-a-day" like OOTS because they DO try to have jokes, when you read about "Sourmanders" you can tell it is SUPPOSED to be funny, it just, well, isn't. (It's hard to believe that "Findomancer" is supposed to be some higher, more subtle humor than OOTS)

Well, that's my shtick. I'll continue to read Erfworld just because it's next to OOTS and hope that it picks up, but I doubt that will happen.

I will give it this one thing. "I can taste key lime pie." Was funny. (Although once again, no depth. Just nice little random joke.)

There's a lot of stuff I could respond with, but I think this Penny Arcade (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/09/05) sums it up nicely.

Erfworld is different than OOTS. It's not just a matter of story-focus versus gag-focus - the structure of the humor itself is different.