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Weimann
2013-09-10, 10:34 AM
I'm messing around with an RPG system that I plan to use for myself and possibly others at the moment, and it's going pretty well, thanks for asking. However, I'm a bit stumped on a minor issue, which I thought I'd throw out there.

In the game, there will be four types of element users - the traditional ones using air, earth, fire and water respectively. But I didn't want to call them "elementalists" or "benders" or something, so I was looking for more evocative names. I came up with a few:

Air - Sylph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylph)
Earth - Gnome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnome), Oread (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oread)
Fire - Salamander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salamander_(legendary_creature)), Ifrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifrit)
Water - Undine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undine_(alchemy)), Naiad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naiad)

As I'm thinking right now, the names I'll end up using is Sylph, Oread, Ifrit and Undine, respectively. However, the term "ifrit" is problematic to me. I'm not familiar with them as creatures, and while the Wikipedia page says an ifrit is an "enormous winged creature of fire", I'm worried they may be too associated with demons to function as an elemental name. Or am I overthinking it? I just like the name more than Salamander.

Gavran
2013-09-10, 10:53 AM
Warning: Personal opinion: I find mixing/cherrypicking mythologies to be very tacky. I suspect that's probably not really what you're doing but it may be good to keep in mind the assumptions people will make when you use names from other sources.

Beyond that, what exactly is an "elemental user" to you? Are these elemental creatures? Regular humans trained to use that element? Human sub-races with the unlearnable "gift" to use elements? Specialized mages that focus on that element?

Felhammer
2013-09-10, 11:13 AM
Why not make up your own names for them?

Or just use Latin:

Ignis
Ventus
Aqua
Terrae

A person who uses an element is called a -mancer (Ignimancer, Ventmancer, Aquamancer, Terraemancer).

Psyren
2013-09-10, 11:14 AM
I'm assuming those names (Sylph, Gnome, Salamander, Undine) are from Secret of Mana aka Seiken Densetsu from Square.

In which case you shouldn't feel bad about Ifrit at all because he is a staple of that other famous Square series you may have heard about :smalltongue:

But if you are worried about fiendish connotations, you could always go with something like Pyrite or Prometheal etc.

LibraryOgre
2013-09-10, 11:21 AM
I'm assuming those names (Sylph, Gnome, Salamander, Undine) are from Secret of Mana aka Seiken Densetsu from Square.


They far predate Secret of Mana.

Eldan
2013-09-10, 11:30 AM
Sylph, Gnome, Salamander and Undine are the four classical spirits of the four elements. They show up in most alchemy that goes back to Greek ideas, but they are pretty old.

The Oread sort of fits, being a Greek creature as well, but the Ifrit (or efreet, afrit, efrite, or however you want to spell it) is certainly the odd one out, being an Arabic creature. And yes, they are most often associated with hell, for reasons that sort of go against the forum's religion rules.





Ignis
Ventus
Aqua
Terrae

A person who uses an element is called a -mancer (Ignimancer, Ventmancer, Aquamancer, Terraemancer).

Aaagh! Aaagh! Greek and Latin roots! Bad! Bad!

Manteia, the origin of the -mancer, is a Greek word for divination. So, you'd have the Pyromancer (divination by staring into the flames for visions), Aeromancer (divination by watching the weather), geomancy (divination by tossing earth and dust into the air and interpret the patterns) and hydromancy (interpreting the patterns of waves after tossing a small object into water).

Khedrac
2013-09-10, 11:33 AM
Why not make up your own names for them?

Or just use Latin:

Ignis
Ventus
Aqua
Terrae

A person who uses an element is called a -mancer (Ignimancer, Ventmancer, Aquamancer, Terraemancer).

This - or another language - is (imo) much better than taking a word usually used for a creature of the element (like Sylph) and applying it to the caster.
People will continually be confusing the two.

If you don't like Latin try other languages - I believe haraq is Arabic for fire (for a 1001 night type setting).

urkthegurk
2013-09-10, 11:45 AM
This - or another language - is (imo) much better than taking a word usually used for a creature of the element (like Sylph) and applying it to the caster.
People will continually be confusing the two.

If you don't like Latin try other languages - I believe haraq is Arabic for fire (for a 1001 night type setting).

I disagree. The proposal in the OP is much more flavorful; as long as you're not planning on introducing a Sylph CREATURE as well, it should be fine. And besides the note about mixing greek and latin roots, its a little over-done. While I've certainly used terms like 'pyromancer' before, its a little too easy.

Eldan
2013-09-10, 11:50 AM
I should make a more helpful post. How about a few more fire-themed mythological beings?

The Phoenix, you probably know that one.

Xiuhcoatl, the Fire Serpent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiuhcoatl)
Zhu Que, The Vermilion Bird of the South (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermilion_Bird)
Agni, God of Fire. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni)
Atar, the Holy Fire. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atar)
The Firebird (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebird_%28Slavic_folklore%29)

And from a random wiki search:
Odqan. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odqan)
Cherufe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherufe)

Bobbis
2013-09-10, 11:50 AM
You could shamelessly steal from Codex Alera:

Knight Aqua - Water
Knight Terra - Earth
Knight Ignus - Fire
Knight Aeris - Air

Honest Tiefling
2013-09-10, 11:59 AM
I would actually argue that using the creature names is a bad idea if the OP's group is big into mythology, for much of the same reasons you likely would not call a fey-related caster an elf. Does my creature type change? Do I at some point change into a gnome? Do I look like a gnome? Am I actually a gnome? If I am a Naiad, should I keep an eye out for horny Greek gods or something? Also, can I say I am related to a god if I am a Naiad?

Of course, it really depends on the group. If they aren't Mythology buffs, I'd say slip in the most exotic ones you can just to see what happens.

Felhammer
2013-09-10, 12:15 PM
Aaagh! Aaagh! Greek and Latin roots! Bad! Bad!

Manteia, the origin of the -mancer, is a Greek word for divination. So, you'd have the Pyromancer (divination by staring into the flames for visions), Aeromancer (divination by watching the weather), geomancy (divination by tossing earth and dust into the air and interpret the patterns) and hydromancy (interpreting the patterns of waves after tossing a small object into water).

I really don't think people are going to care that much about mixing Latin and Greek roots, especially when you consider how common the suffix "mancer" is in fantasy (NecroMANCER, PyroMANCER, etc.). I don't think people associate Mancer with Divinations so much as being a practitioner of a particular form of magic.

Having said that, I do like the Greek names more than the Latin ones. They roll off the tongue a bit better.

Eldan
2013-09-10, 12:28 PM
Necromancer is another Greek word, though, just like pyromancer. A spiritualist who summons up the spirits of the dead to ask them questions. The roots really aren't mixed much.

Look up the wiktionary article on -mancy sometime. There's a ton of weird divination traditions on there.

endoperez
2013-09-10, 12:37 PM
What about planets?

Mars = fire, Neptune = water, Jupiter = air, Saturn = earth.

This could be combined with a naming convention of Title (of) Planet. So a Knight Mars would be a holy knight with the power of fire, while a Sage Neptune would be a wise, oracular character with the power over water.


It could also be adapted for other sorts of magic. For example, if moon were to symbolize womanhood, charms, ladyhood etc, charms and enchantments might be classified as Moon magic.

No, this isn't meant to dupe someone into naming his characters after Sailor Moon. Why do you ask?

erikun
2013-09-10, 01:03 PM
No, this isn't meant to dupe someone into naming his characters after Sailor Moon. Why do you ask?
That's good, because Saturn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_(mythology)), or the Greek god Saturnus, was the leader of the Titans rather than having any relation to the elements. You'd probably be better with Uranus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_(mythology)) or Jupiter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_(mythology)) as the element of air, given that Jupiter is the god of the sky and Uranus is literally the sky itself.

I'd find it rather odd to not call Gaia/Earth the element of earth, although if you want to link it to some astrology then Venus might be appropriate. Although if you want to link it to astrology, you might want to stick with planets visible from earth as well. :smallwink: Neptune is not visible by the naked eye, and Uranus was likely noticed but not recognized as an actual planet until the invention of the telescope.

Hopeless
2013-09-10, 01:07 PM
So

Aeromancer

Aquamancer

Geomancer

Pyromancer

and Captain Planet!:smallbiggrin:

Sorry couldn't resist!

erikun
2013-09-10, 01:34 PM
It sounds like we'd need a Philiamancer in there somewhere, to represent the heart*.


* The bonds between friends, family, and loyalty to community. This makes more sense than other words for "love" that appear in Greek. reference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love)

Joe the Rat
2013-09-10, 01:42 PM
Branch out. Mine Finnish or Dutch or Gaelic or Olmec something.

Aardemacht?

The Dark Fiddler
2013-09-10, 01:52 PM
You COULD just crib from Shin Megami Tensei, if you wanted; Erthys, Aquans, Aeros, and Flaemis.

Eldan
2013-09-10, 01:54 PM
That's good, because Saturn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_(mythology)), or the Greek god Saturnus, was the leader of the Titans rather than having any relation to the elements. You'd probably be better with Uranus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_(mythology)) or Jupiter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_(mythology)) as the element of air, given that Jupiter is the god of the sky and Uranus is literally the sky itself.

I'd find it rather odd to not call Gaia/Earth the element of earth, although if you want to link it to some astrology then Venus might be appropriate. Although if you want to link it to astrology, you might want to stick with planets visible from earth as well. :smallwink: Neptune is not visible by the naked eye, and Uranus was likely noticed but not recognized as an actual planet until the invention of the telescope.

Those associations already exist in astrology. For some weird reason, Jupiter is actually a fire planet, together with Mars and the Sun. Venus and Mercury are the Air planets.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-09-10, 01:58 PM
You could shamelessly steal from Codex Alera:

Knight Aqua - Water
Knight Terra - Earth
Knight Ignus - Fire
Knight Aeris - Air
Hey, I was gonna say that!

Mx.Silver
2013-09-10, 02:20 PM
In the game, there will be four types of element users - the traditional ones using air, earth, fire and water respectively.
I do sometimes wonder what aether ever did to get consistently overlooked when people start talking about classical elements. Besides not exist, obviously. Void gets an occasional nod now and then but also seems highly under-represented.


However, the term "ifrit" is problematic to me. I'm not familiar with them as creatures, and while the Wikipedia page says an ifrit is an "enormous winged creature of fire", I'm worried they may be too associated with demons to function as an elemental name. Or am I overthinking it?
From what I understand: Ifrit (or efreet as I've also seen it written are more-or-less a type of djinn (aka genies). As such, they're quite distinct from demons.
The association that you're more likely to have problems with is Final Fantasy, on account of Ifrit being a recurring fire summon from the series.

Scow2
2013-09-10, 02:32 PM
I second Salamander over Ifrit... apparently, they're both giant flaming lizards, though.

Unfortunately, the term "Gnome" has too many silly connotations.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-09-10, 02:44 PM
I do sometimes wonder what aether ever did to get consistently overlooked when people start talking about classical elements. Besides not exist, obviously. Void gets an occasional nod now and then but also seems highly under-represented.
It's a bit too ethereal for people to notice it. :smalltongue:

Arkhosia
2013-09-10, 03:10 PM
Try Pyrus.
Enkindler is good too or something similar.
Drake works too

Weimann
2013-09-10, 03:14 PM
Many good suggestions here. Thanks.

The "elementalists" in my case are less casters, more bender-like. They are heavily influenced by the Ryuujin in the Exalted spin-off system Burn Legend. They will certainly be primarily physical combatants but I also plan on them having a few more magical tricks up their sleeves, such as the Earth users being able to walk through solid rock. I'm not quite decided on how their elemental prowess is obtained (or if I will bother to define a way at all; the system will be very light), but I know they'll sooner punch you in the face than cast Scorching Ray. Because of this, I'm not happy with a -mancer construction. It carries connotations of casters and mages, and these are not that.

The reason I wanted spirit names to begin with was to tap into the recognition of names you might have heard and associate with classical mythical creatures, which helps lend a background to the characters even if the similarity is no deeper than the name.

Knight (Element) is a better idea. It has a martial tone that can be useful, but it also lacks a certain naturalness that I think the spirit names had. A Knight is someone with a given authority, someone trained, someone who has a job to perform. A mythical spirit kind of just... is, with nothing else to it. Not saying either of them are bad, mind, I'm just pointing out the differences I perceive. :smallsmile:

endoperez
2013-09-10, 03:35 PM
Knight (Element) is a better idea. It has a martial tone that can be useful, but it also lacks a certain naturalness that I think the spirit names had. A Knight is someone with a given authority, someone trained, someone who has a job to perform. A mythical spirit kind of just... is, with nothing else to it. Not saying either of them are bad, mind, I'm just pointing out the differences I perceive. :smallsmile:

Haha, hope you can make something out of that silly joke post. XD



Erikun: I actually checked the Earth connection, and Saturn is (one of the) planets associated with Earth in astrology and alchemy. However, as Eldan pointed out a bit later, Jupiter isn't actually connected to Air in the same way despite being named after a thunder god... That's quite weird.

Arkhosia
2013-09-10, 03:47 PM
Maybe you could have 3 classes:
Knight, Scout, and Archer.
These each have elemental paths. Depending on which you chose, you are titled:

Drakeblade, Sylphblade, Golemblade, and Merblade for knights. These are guards, soldiers, and warriors who wear heavy armor and manipulate an element through their weapons and armor for support to strike harder, evade quicker, resist stronger, or adapt faster to blows, respectively.

Lightknife, Gustknife, Worldknife, and Rockknife for Scouts. These guys act as explorers, pirates, thieves, Druids, and other lightly armored warriors who get up close and personal. They channel their elements as a more primary weapon, but are versatile in combat, blinding enemies, blowing them away, binding or controlling them, and battering them with their strikes.

Pyrebow, Stormbow, Floodbow, and Wallbow stick completely to their element, sending bolts of magma, strikes of lightning, icy spikes, and hurtling boulders at their opponents. These are your wizards, sorcerers, and artificers.

Weimann
2013-09-10, 04:03 PM
That's not a bad idea at all, Arkhosia, but it's not an idea that fits with what I'm doing.

For one, it's just much too big, and I doubt the system could support so much granularity in the elemental theme (okay, actually, it's more that I doubt my own ability to write that much granularity :smalltongue:). For another, I do not intend to even mechanise weapons or armour, but leave them purely aesthetic choices. This fits with the style of many kung fu and fighting games, where barehanded people often have equal ground with weapon users.

Good thought, however. :smallbiggrin:

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-09-10, 04:29 PM
If you want to name them after mythical creatures, just grab a selection of well-known creatures from a mythos (or from any given group--such as the Chinese Zodiac animals) and find ones that match the elements. Pick one for each element, and voila! It doesn't need to be an animal which is only ever associated with the element, just one that fits well.

Anonymouswizard
2013-09-11, 03:42 AM
Personally I would suggest that you call them knight/blade/whatever element, and use the mythological creatures as specific ranks/titles. So the Sylph might be the most powerful Knight Areis, whereas the Salamander might be the most powerful Knight Ignis, etc.

I would also go for the 'classic' elementals (salamander, sylph, undine and gnome), as it is hard to find a replacement for sylph (as the obvious replacement of Djinni is associated as much with fire as it is with air).

Psyren
2013-09-11, 12:18 PM
They far predate Secret of Mana.

Individually, yes, but used together in a 4- or 8-element setup?


So

Aeromancer

Aquamancer

Geomancer

Pyromancer

and Captain Planet!:smallbiggrin:

Sorry couldn't resist!

You forgot heart :smalltongue:

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-09-11, 12:23 PM
You forgot heart :smalltongue:
Nobody cares about heart. :smalltongue:

Lorsa
2013-09-11, 12:43 PM
I would love to be a Sylph, that sounds awesome.

(ok, that wasn't very constructive I know)

The Rose Dragon
2013-09-11, 12:44 PM
Individually, yes, but used together in a 4- or 8-element setup?

Considering they go back to classical Greek mythology, I will say yes.

Eldan
2013-09-11, 02:33 PM
Individually, yes, but used together in a 4- or 8-element setup?

Sylph/Undine/Salamander/Gnome? All over. Greek philosophy, all of alchemy, even Goethe's Faust.

The four (or five) elements are everywhere in alchemy. Plus their associated spirits, chemical processes, true elements, etc.

Psyren
2013-09-11, 04:40 PM
I knew the elements themselves were classic (Fire/Water etc.) but not with those specific names. So if Goethe was throwing Gnome around, consider me corrected.


Nobody cares about heart. :smalltongue:

:smallfrown:

Kane0
2013-09-11, 05:06 PM
Flametongue, Riverdancer, Windwalker and Stoneshaper.

Eldan
2013-09-11, 05:40 PM
I knew the elements themselves were classic (Fire/Water etc.) but not with those specific names. So if Goethe was throwing Gnome around, consider me corrected.:

From the German version:




Faust.
Erst zu begegnen dem Thiere,
Brauch’ ich den Spruch der Viere:
Salamander soll glühen,
Undene sich winden,
1275
Silphe verschwinden,

Kobold sich mühen.

Wer sie nicht kennte
Die Elemente,
Ihre Kraft
1280
Und Eigenschaft,

Wäre kein Meister
Ueber die Geister.

Verschwind’ in Flammen
Salamander!
1285
Rauschend fließe zusammen

Undene!
Leucht’ in Meteoren-Schöne
Silphe!
Bring’ häusliche Hülfe
[84]
1290
Incubus! incubus!

Tritt hervor und mache den Schluß.

It's spelt a bit archaically, but still: Undene, Silphe, Salamander.

He's using Kobold instead of Gnome, but a Kobold in German is really more or less the same as a Gnome in English, a small mischievous spirit. Gnome is an interesting word: apparently first used in alchemy by Paracelsus as a neo-Latin word, so not really ancient, but may or may not be a Greek derivation, but he uses it instead of the word Pygmy, which is a sort of Greek gnome.

Fiery Diamond
2013-09-11, 05:45 PM
It's a bit too ethereal for people to notice it. :smalltongue:

I see what you did there.:smallcool:

Also, on topic, you can look to video games for ideas. The Tales of series has Ifreet (Fire), Undine (Water), Sylph (Wind), and Gnome (Earth), as well as the interesting but thematically unrelated names for Ice, Lightning, Light, and Dark - Celsius, Volt, Aska (and/or Luna), and Shadow (and/or Luna, oddly).

ToS2 also has the Latin-based Tenebrae (Dark), Lumen (Light), Aqua (Water), Ignis (Fire), Solum (Earth), Tonitrius (Lightning), Glacius (Ice), and Ventus (Wind).

Final Fantasy has some names you could borrow also.

Personally, I find it fun to make up names using existing ones as a basis.

LibraryOgre
2013-09-11, 06:41 PM
Individually, yes, but used together in a 4- or 8-element setup?


Daggerspell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daggerspell) was first published in 1986, and is part of a 15-novel cycle. Gnomes, Undines, Salamanders, Sylphs and Sprite (for Aethyr) were all part of the magical world created.

geonova
2013-09-12, 06:24 AM
personally i would use a construct of the Japanese words for the elements+jin (which means person)

e.g.
fire = enjin
water =suijin
air = fuujin
earth = doujin
and if you follow the theme; thunder/lightning = raijin

and then have the four(five) best in the world have the titles of:
entei (fire king/god/lord)
suicune (water king/god/lord)
raikou (thunder/lightning king/god/lord)

and then name the four best the ****enou (if using five elements, the gotenou)