How tough is this beast?

[qwertyu63]

Title says it all. I've made a homebrew monster, and want to know how tough it would be to fight. Assume the party does not have access to tier 1-2 casters. Thank you in advance.

Devastator
Huge Chaotic Evil Outsider;
Init: +0, 222 HP (18d8), AC: 27 (-2 size, +7 Dex, +12 natural armor);
Spd: Land 30 ft., Fly 60 ft (perfect), Saves: Fort +19, Ref +18, Will +17;
BAB: +18/+13/+8/+3, Atk: Claw (+23/+18/+13/+8, 3d6+7 damage);
Damage reduction 15/silver, darkvision 60 feet, spell-like abilities;
Spot +28, Listen +28, Sense Motive +28, Bluff +27, Move Silently +27, Hide +21, Intimidate +27, Search +31, Tumble +29, Spellcraft +31.
Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Cleave;
Str 25(+7), Dex 25(+7), Con 26(+8), Int 28(+9), Wis 22(+6), Cha 20(+5).

Spell-like abilities: At will- Dispel Magic, Fireball, Detect Magic, Greater Teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), Haste, True Creation. Caster level: 15; Int-based DC's.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I'd peg it at CR 16-17, similar to a Pathfinder Marilith.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/marilith


It has better DR and damage but lower HP and AC and no SR. Everything else is about similar.

[Zaydos]

How much range does the party have? The perfect fly-speed and at-will fireball could make it pretty nasty if the party is all melee focused. It'll be a hard battle if they lack silver weapons/spells but if it gets into melee its damage output is significantly below a mariliths (4 attacks that deal 2 more damage at a -1 to hit, and loss of 6 attacks which are more accurate than most of their attacks).

I'd put it as weaker than a marilith so CR 16, but I forget the average stats of CR 15-17 creatures and my experience with mariliths has been that giving them a class level (and elite ability scores and NPC wealth) or vampires (not normally allowable for the template) makes them nasty nasty creatures.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Wait until you meet the Paragon marilith (a marilith with 3x the advanced template, multiweapon fighting feats, and Quicken SLA for her teleport).

[qwertyu63]

How much range does the party have?

There is no party in particular. The classes restriction is based on what I plan to do with it.

[Beelzebub1111]

As a powerful Chaotic Evil Outsider, it's DR should be DR/Silver and Good, or at least DR/Silver or Good. But that's just my opinion.

From what I understand, you don't get multiple attacks with a natural weapon, unless it's a manufactured claw. If it has multiple claws it attacks with, it gets one attack at its full base attack bonus with each natural weapon. Otherwise it's just the one attack at full base attack bonus

That said, I'd put it at around 16 at the most.

[TheDarkDM]

16 seems high. Compare to the Cornugon as an example of a CR 16 outsider - The Devastator lacks regeneration, summoning ability, has an AC 8 lower, only slightly better saves, and enough health to take one more solid hit. Even the CR 13 Gelugon strikes me as more of a challenge, with a higher AC, better attack sequence (because Beelzebub1111 is quite correct about natural weapons), regeneration, and (arguably) better SLA's.

I'd put this around CR 12, 13 if a high hp pool is something your party typically finds challenging.

*edit*
And I just realized The Devastator lacks SR or energy resistances/immunities. Those are pretty important.

[Debihuman]

A full stat block makes it easier to judge. DR to silver is pretty lame for a 18 HD monster. It should be DR to magic at least. What feats does it have? What special attacks does it have?

Debby

[Zaydos]

A full stat block makes it easier to judge. DR to silver is pretty lame for a 18 HD monster. It should be DR to magic at least. What feats does it have? What special attacks does it have?

Debby

Due to 3.5 revision to DR /silver is better than magic. Every 10+ level character (and most 5+ ones) will have access to magic weapons, but a silver weapon has to be carried as an extra weapon (DR cold iron and adamantine being more common) suffering a -1 to damage or they have to use one of the various magic weapon qualities that allow overcoming DR regardless of type (+2 or +3 cost). DR /silver is actually one of the best DRs in the game (it is worse than DR /-, /epic, or /material and alignment).

[Debihuman]

Due to 3.5 revision to DR /silver is better than magic. Every 10+ level character (and most 5+ ones) will have access to magic weapons, but a silver weapon has to be carried as an extra weapon (DR cold iron and adamantine being more common) suffering a -1 to damage or they have to use one of the various magic weapon qualities that allow overcoming DR regardless of type (+2 or +3 cost). DR /silver is actually one of the best DRs in the game (it is worse than DR /-, /epic, or /material and alignment).

Silver weapons are relatively inexpensive. Also, most PCs will have already dealt with lycanthropes by the time they are going to face one of these. What make you think the party won't have access to weapons that are both magical and silver by 12th level? The difference in cost is at most 180 gp. For silver daggers, you are only looking at an additional cost of 20 gp per dagger for the silver.

BTW, this is where I find Pathfinder to be a superior system. Magical weapons with +3 or higher enhancements overcome DR/silver and +4 overcomes adamantine in Pathfinder, which is NOT the case in 3.5.

Looking over this monster, there's a lot that's wrong with it. First, creatures don't get iterative attacks with natural weapons. You should follow the stat block in the online SRD as that is the easiest to critique. See here: http://www.d20srd.org


hit points: 18x4.5+144=225 not 222.
Initiative = Dex modifier

How does having True Creation help it? It's 8th level spell so it should not be an at-will spell. I can't see it using greater teleport and greater creation more than 3/day.

Usually the lowest level spells are at will and higher level spells are 3/day or 1/day. Also, spell-like abilities are always charisma-based.

Here is how it looks in stat block form. Skills and feats should be in alphabetical order.

Devastator
Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Evil)
Hit Dice: 18d8+144 (225 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), Fly 60 ft. (perfect)
BAB/Grapple: +18/+33
Attack: Claw +23 (3d6+7 damage)
Full Attack: 2 claws +23 (3d6+7)
Armor Class: 27 (-2 size, +7 Dex, +12 natural armor), touch 15, flat-footed 20
Space/Reach: 15 ft./ 10 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like Abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/cold iron, darkvision
Saves: Fort +19, Ref +18, Will +17
Abilities: Str 25(+7), Dex 25(+7), Con 26(+8), Int 28(+9), Wis 22(+6), Cha 20(+5)
Skills: Spot +28, Listen +28, Sense Motive +28, Bluff +27, Move Silently +27, Hide +21, Intimidate +27, Search +31, Tumble +29, Spellcraft +31
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Cleave
Environment: Any Chaotic Evil Plane
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 12
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 19-20 (Huge), 21-40 (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: --

Spell-like Abilities: At will- detect magic, dispel magic, fireball (DC 18), haste; 3/day- greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), true creation. Caster level 15, Charisma-based DCs.

Debby

[Beelzebub1111]

You know, I just realized something. As a chaotic evil outsider, shouldn't its DR be Cold Iron?

[qwertyu63]

First off, thank you for your time looking over this.


Silver weapons are relatively inexpensive. Also, most PCs will have already dealt with lycanthropes by the time they are going to face one of these. What make you think the party won't have access to weapons that are both magical and silver by 12th level? The difference in cost is at most 180 gp. For silver daggers, you are only looking at an additional cost of 20 gp per dagger for the silver.


BTW, this is where I find Pathfinder to be a superior system. Magical weapons with +3 or higher enhancements overcome DR/silver and +4 overcomes adamantine in Pathfinder, which is NOT the case in 3.5.

I would call that a bad change, not a good one.


Looking over this monster, there's a lot that's wrong with it. First, creatures don't get iterative attacks with natural weapons. You should follow the stat block in the online SRD as that is the easiest to critique. See here: http://www.d20srd.org

Huh, learn something new every day. I didn't know natural weapons didn't get iteratives.

The statblock I was using is just the compact one I use for most things. (SRD one is too large for my tastes)


hit points: 18x4.5+144=225 not 222.
Initiative = Dex modifier

How did I mess up that simple math? :smallredface:


How does having True Creation help it? It's 8th level spell so it should not be an at-will spell. I can't see it using greater teleport and greater creation more than 3/day.

True Creation is because of what I plan of having it be used for (You call upon it to make a request, after which it gets to leave and do what it pleases [usually break things, possibly you.])

Also, the greater teleport was copied from the: Succubus, Vrock, Nalfeshnee, Marilith, Hezrou, Glabrezu, Balor and Babau. It's rather a demon thing.


Usually the lowest level spells are at will and higher level spells are 3/day or 1/day. Also, spell-like abilities are always charisma-based.

Well, can you tell I don't often make creatures? Thanks.


Here is how it looks in stat block form. Skills and feats should be in alphabetical order.

Devastator
Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Evil)
Hit Dice: 18d8+144 (225 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), Fly 60 ft. (perfect)
BAB/Grapple: +18/+33
Attack: Claw +23 (3d6+7 damage)
Full Attack: 2 claws +23 (3d6+7)
Armor Class: 27 (-2 size, +7 Dex, +12 natural armor), touch 15, flat-footed 20
Space/Reach: 15 ft./ 10 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like Abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/silver, darkvision
Saves: Fort +19, Ref +18, Will +17
Abilities: Str 25(+7), Dex 25(+7), Con 26(+8), Int 28(+9), Wis 22(+6), Cha 20(+5)
Skills: Spot +28, Listen +28, Sense Motive +28, Bluff +27, Move Silently +27, Hide +21, Intimidate +27, Search +31, Tumble +29, Spellcraft +31
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Cleave
Environment: Any Chaotic Evil Plane
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 12
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 19-20 (Huge), 21-40 (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: --

Spell-like Abilities: At will- detect magic, dispel magic, fireball (DC 18), haste; 3/day- greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), haste, true creation. Caster level 15, Charisma-based DCs.

Debby

Wow. Thank you. I'll have to use that. FYI, you put haste in both the At will list and the 3/day list.


You know, I just realized something. As a chaotic evil outsider, shouldn't its DR be Cold Iron?

This is a copy-paste error. Thanks for catching it.

[Debihuman]

In 3.0, magic weapons overcame silver damage reduction. Actually that was true in 2nd editition as well, as damage reduction was introduced in Unearthed Arcana. The more materials that you add DR to, the larger the cache of weapons the PCs will want to carry around. This is why I prefer that magic overcomes silver at +3 and magic overcomes adamantine at +4.

From the SRD:

Demon Traits
Most demons possess the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Immunity to electricity and poison.
Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10.
Summon (Sp): Many demons share the ability to summon others of their kind (the success chance and type of demon summoned are noted in each monster description). Demons are often reluctant to use this power until in obvious peril or extreme circumstances.
Telepathy.
Except where otherwise noted, demons speak Abyssal, Celestial, and Draconic.


Telepathy requires a range and you need to say whether the subject must share a common language with the demon.

I updated my previous stat block but you may want to adjust it in light of the above text.


Debby

[inuyasha]

In 3.0, magic weapons overcame silver damage reduction. Actually that was true in 2nd editition as well, as damage reduction was introduced in Unearthed Arcana. The more materials that you add DR to, the larger the cache of weapons the PCs will want to carry around. This is why I prefer that magic overcomes silver at +3 and magic overcomes adamantine at +4.

From the SRD:


Telepathy requires a range and you need to say whether the subject must share a common language with the demon.

I updated my previous stat block but you may want to adjust it in light of the above text.


Debby

1. No such thing as damage reduction until 3.0
2. there was no unearthed arcana in 2nd edition

[Amechra]

Yeah, Unearthed Arcana was 1e.

Also, prior to 3e, creatures were outright immune to damage that wasn't dealt by the right category of weapons.

[Debihuman]

Yeah, Unearthed Arcana was 1e.

Also, prior to 3e, creatures were outright immune to damage that wasn't dealt by the right category of weapons.

In 2e damage reduction was a matter of armor unless I am remembering incorrectly. I believe full plate and field plate were the first instances at anything like DR. However, you're correct about the immunity. This is one reason why 3.0 was better and 2e.

Debby