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Malrone
2013-09-17, 04:31 AM
Hallo, playgrounders! I come seeking aid.
If this is Greg, Jess, Martini, Kyle, or Dylan: Go Away and Repent

I am intending to a run a fairly sizable campaign based on the Burning Hate theory. The system is 3.5, but mechanical issues aren't at the fore of this discussion. The setting is your typical anachronistic fantasy world- on the surface. The only thing apparently apart from baseline D&D is that the only "human" God is Pelor, and His Radiance sits at the top of a theocracy that has been in charge of humanity for as long as anyone cares to remember.

The church is by all apparent measures the one described in the books, give or take a few things. One thing I decided was that each of the other general [Good] gods- so far Ehlonna, Kord, Heironeous, and mostly Cuthbert- are considered Saints under Pelor's divine light. In reality, they were all heroes on the cusp of ascending to deific status, when Pelor snatched them away to his own plane and placed them in stasis. The idea being that he is siphoning their power to buoy his own.

Some mythology:
All the racial gods took it upon themselves to make the material plane, except Pelor, who was asked/volunteered to be the keeper of the creation that followed. It was made to be an honor, for it required great power to act in such a fashion. So as the rest of the deities fashioned the world, Pelor formed the sun. So occupied, however, He had no say in the way things came to be, and was denied the opportunity to craft a race in his image.

Eventually, after a passing of an age where Pelor was unknown to mortals and left alone by the other gods, humanity emerged in the world. Shunned by the other races for being godless primitives, humanity wandered until Pelor took notice of them and their potential. Seeing a new option before him, Pelor embraced the humans, became their patron. Ever since, they have, willingly or unwittingly, acted as his instruments in an ongoing conspiracy to claim all of creation for himself.

The plot of the early game is following a decidedly typical format: Fight these goblins, kill these bandits, save this town; the party itself is a band of mercenaries and clergy reminiscent of the Shadow Strikers out of Complete Divine. The intent is to reinforce the illusion of a typical setting and the good-guy perception of the church so that it can later be more dramatically shattered.

Now, I'm eager to proceed and have all these broad strokes in hand, but putting it all together is daunting me. I would like this thread to serve as a think tank on how the story can proceed. GitP has a good lot of creative juice ripe for siphoning, haha.

Some points that could use the attention:
--What happens mid-game start the party down the path to discovering the truth about Pelor?
--How do the other Gods not perceive the shift in Pelor's true alignment?
--How are relations between humanity and the other races, now that they are an established empire nation?

JeenLeen
2013-09-17, 07:36 AM
A few additional setting questions:

How much do the high-ranking clergy and/or government (which I take it are the party's employers) know about Pelor's true alignment and motives?

Is there a lot of evil and corruption (from dark rituals to just bribery or vice) going on in the higher ranks?

Is there a houserule that clerics of Pelor can be Good? Maybe Pelor uses siphoned energy from good demi-gods (those heroes about to ascend you mentioned) to empower turn undead and similar good-only aspects.


One difficulty, in my eyes, is that unless there is some dark group knowingly working for Pelor as Pelor truly is (and I don't see why Pelor would want that, as it is a vulnerability), it's hard to find out.

Maybe they are sent to destroy the forces of a racial god, or a cult devoted to one of the 'demi-gods', and those people tell them the truth (although it's unclear for sure if that's just their heresy or actually true.)

You could also have the party be sent to fight demons or devils, and they reveal the truth as some sort of strange planar politics thing... devils would probably make more sense for that. Or undead/necromancers, who want the freedom to practice undead which Pelor denies them. I could see the 'these guys are evil, but they seem to know more than us and could be allies' being an interesting tension or moral choice for the party.

RochtheCrusher
2013-09-17, 07:52 AM
Some points that could use the attention:
--What happens mid-game start the party down the path to discovering the truth about Pelor?

Perhaps Pelor's demands upon the party become more stifling as time goes on... massive tithes, ridiculous rules about not fighting those who even claim to worship Pelor (to include bandits raiding other races and the like.)

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the party is asked to seek out the Font of Healing Light in one location and the Siphon of Interplanar Generousity in another, being told that combining the two will bless the fountains and wells in every town where the Light is worshipped.

There are legends that most of the Saints of Pelor attempted this task shortly before rising to their rightful station because, of course, it is not the water which is being siphoned off.


--How do the other Gods not perceive the shift in Pelor's true alignment?

Who would still be left to care? Isn't it just a few racial gods of good, like Moradin and Bahamut?

Pelor simply does not meddle with the affairs of Dwarves, Dragons, and Elves. The other gods more or less hate Him anyway, though He may have a deal with one of the less ambitious evil gods.


--How are relations between humanity and the other races, now that they are an established empire nation?

Based on my previous answer, the humans are still very deferential and "turn the other cheek" with other races. Pelor has blessed them richly, however, with resources and defensible positions.

Of course, the bandits are keen on stealing from the other races, particularly magic items, artifacts, and reagents, and both they and this High Necromancer of Pelor cause some problems with diplomacy, but there's no accounting for thieves and madmen, right?

I'm not sure what you expect us to do... they don't live in our Empire, we don't feed them, we don't give them refuge. Surely you can handle them, yes? Unfortunately, spilling the blood of a Pelorite is forbidden to us, no matter how crazed they are... otherwise, of course we'd send our armies to mop them up. Sorry, our hands are tied here.

Scow2
2013-09-17, 09:05 AM
So... Pelor is St. Eva/Deathevan? That's all I can think of, really.

The Oni
2013-09-17, 12:19 PM
I for one love the idea of this campaign as the villain is both completely evil and deserves his inevitable smiting, yet the rationale behind it actually makes sense.

Hm. Your title gives me an idea. Maybe Pelor's power is sufficient now that he begins to afflict certain areas of the earth with intense heatwaves (as in the kind that people die from) to drive the non-human populace out? Then the humans can move in with little to no resistance. Yes it violates physics, but it's also D&D, I think you'll be OK, lol.

So yes, this sinister plan is discovered, traced back to Pelor, etc. etc.

Justreader
2013-09-17, 01:01 PM
You can make the heroes go for a quest to instaure/help/something an order of holy warriors whith paladin powers, but in the middle of the campain the y start to do things they shoulnd be able to do, like evil things or chaotic things. Then they search and investigate and find a secret plan to kill all the other priest or something, mindcontrol the land, erase the memories of other gods, or sacrifice the entire humanity to fuel a new genesis. The master of the idea is the god. Please forgive my english.

Malrone
2013-09-17, 03:28 PM
Thanks for the great replies everyone.


So... Pelor is St. Eva/Deathevan? That's all I can think of, really.
I'm afraid the reference is lost on me.


How much do the high-ranking clergy and/or government (which I take it are the party's employers) know about Pelor's true alignment and motives?
A correct assumption. As there are the Shadow Strikers (missionary adventurers punching in evil's face for Pelor), there are the Shadow Spies. To quote the Complete Champion, "The existence of the this group, also known as the Shadows of the Light, is unknown to all but the most influential of Pelor's servants." This group has it's own PrC, which grants this class feature-
Veil of Pelor (Sp):
When you attain 3rd level, your motives and morality become almost impossible to determine. As an immediate action, you can use undetectable alignment, as the spell (caster level equals your character level). This ability is usable at will.
So, while the highest echelons may or may not be outwardly evil, they are at least aware of the 'need' for darker things to be done for the greater good. The shadow spies guide themselves, for the most part, and are in most cases already on the Inflict side of the moral boundary.


Is there a houserule that clerics of Pelor can be Good? Maybe Pelor uses siphoned energy from good demi-gods (those heroes about to ascend you mentioned) to empower turn undead and similar good-only aspects.
This is, in fact, exactly the case.


Maybe Pelor's power is sufficient now that he begins to afflict certain areas of the earth with intense heatwaves [...]
I've already considered the formation of a particular desert as "punishment for some great, forgotten heresy." Having it be to promote human development is a thought...


[...] but in the middle of the campain the y start to do things they shoulnd be able to do, like evil things or chaotic things.
This was the most prominent idea for mid-game, but the devil is in the details. To keep the pacing, it needs to start subtle, but not so much so that the twist doesn't make sense.


You could also have the party be sent to fight demons or devils, and they reveal the truth as some sort of strange planar politics thing... devils would probably make more sense for that.
Speaking of. :smallamused:
Though, Mr. Sun is still trying to keep up the guise of [Good] until the time is right, so that the other deities don't crack down on him. So how would these infernals know?

EPIPHANIC EDIT:

Maybe they are sent to destroy the forces of a racial god, or a cult devoted to one of the 'demi-gods', and those people tell them the truth
Hextor. Yes.

Mr Beer
2013-09-17, 05:48 PM
I imagine non-humans are regarded with some suspicion.

They might worship "evil" gods that turn out not to be evil, or maybe they worship neutral gods that are "siding with evil to restore neutrality in the face of Good's ascendancy" or maybe the worship good deities which "work against Pelor in their naivety". The reality of the statements in quotation marks are open to interpretation.

Non-humans may be the players' best allies when the truth comes out, so you should pre-establish some non-human converts to Pelor. That way when the players are working with elven freedom fighters, one of them can sell them out.

Scow2
2013-09-17, 08:25 PM
I'm afraid the reference is lost on me.
The name of the big Bad of the Capcom RPG Breath of Fire II for the SNES. The entire plot was that the belevolent and altruistic Church of "St. Eva" was actually a front for a soul-stealing, world-ending Cosmic Horror. I suggest finding a way to play it.

And, it does have the theme of "These guys are actually bad news" among nonhumans toward the end - the church starts off extremely altruistic and obviously well-meaning (Your character's father is a priest of St. Eva, and 100% Neutral Good), but as it goes on, the party faces evil demons that talk about what they were promised from "Their God", but eventually, direct links start showing up between them and "St. Eva"

The_Werebear
2013-09-17, 10:15 PM
I would definitely err on the side of even the most evil followers thinking they are good aligned. Doing evil for further "good" is par for the course, but I'd keep the cynicism even in the upper echelons to a minimum. Explain away the Inflicting as "Channeling Pelor's might to sear the unworthy" and Rebuking Undead as "Destroying the feeble dead's will to resist righteousness." I'd think it would still be shiny looking. Even if Pelor himself is making a power grab for his own gain, his followers at least should think they're the good guys.

One simple trick is to have two priests who the party works with early on. Have one be the standard NG Pelorite, and have the other be of a sort who is inclined more towards Burning Hate type things. As they go along, have the Standard Pelorite start to question some of the teachings, whereas the BH becomes more zealous and gets promoted and special privileges. Eventually (if they start to like the NG Pelorite) have him be eliminated by the hierarchy quietly, and the party will start to investigate on their own. That could be a good lead in to the idea that the Church is corrupted, and eventually discovering how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Another useful idea might be to discover that Pelor's philosophically aligned allies be very questionable. Not outright fiends, but things like Salamanders, Fire Elementals, and Djinn.

The Random NPC
2013-09-18, 12:32 AM
This probably doesn't help, but if the church itself is Good, while Pelor is not, I think it would be awesome if the church excommunicated Pelor from the Church of Pelor.

Flame of Anor
2013-09-19, 04:12 PM
EPIPHANIC EDIT:

Hextor. Yes.

I would strongly recommend giving the party the option to ally themselves with the followers of one of the imprisoned, truly-good gods. Maybe they can make an alliance of convenience with the Hextorians, then realize that that is also the wrong side when they are told to fight a secret sect of Heironeans or Cuthbertites or some such.


This probably doesn't help, but if the church itself is Good, while Pelor is not, I think it would be awesome if the church excommunicated Pelor from the Church of Pelor.

I think that would be an awesome idea!

Malrone
2013-09-19, 10:55 PM
This probably doesn't help, but if the church itself is Good, while Pelor is not, I think it would be awesome if the church excommunicated Pelor from the Church of Pelor.
Awesome indeed, but that's more up to the players than myself. They'll need to be pretty Big Damn Heroes to change the faith of a people raised into it.


Another useful idea might be to discover that Pelor's philosophically aligned allies be very questionable. Not outright fiends, but things like Salamanders, Fire Elementals, and Djinn.
I've been considering working up some fluff and crunch for new Outsiders specifically for Pelor. Things that would be direct servitors and avatars of His will. Beings whose command advice is unquestioned.


I would strongly recommend giving the party the option to ally themselves with the followers of one of the imprisoned, truly-good gods. Maybe they can make an alliance of convenience with the Hextorians, then realize that that is also the wrong side when they are told to fight a secret sect of Heironeans or Cuthbertites or some such.
Once upon a month-ago, I wrote up little one-page overviews of each of the Saints as presented by the church. They're true to the flavor in the PHB, and hint at the stories being more propaganda than fact. "The Epic of St. Heironeous and Hextor" has the brothers quest to destroy an evil artifact, only for Hextor to claim it instead, leading to a climatic battle between the duo.
Ostensibly, Hextor fell to corruption, but I think that he realized that Pelor was misleading them. Not a [Good] guy still, but not [Vile] either.

Either way, unless the party is outright excommunicated for opposing the church, or better at espionage than I would think, Hextorians won't work with them at all.

An idea I had: In the last generation or two, another band of missionary heroes like the party reached the point in deed and faith where the party lead could start being plumped up for Sainthood. However, said Cleric was a devotee of one of the Saints (decisions, decisions), and was warned through visions that the coming trials were a trap. The party investigated these vague directions and nearly discovered the truth themselves, when agents of the church confronted and defeated them.

It was the typical four-member band, Divine, Arcane, Martial, Skilled. Each was punished in a particular way, since such is the habit of the powerful. The Arcane was feeble-minded and left to his own devices. The Martial was crippled, and has his memory rewritten. He was released back into the public to convince the world that the party disbanded/retired naturally, and would go on to found a Fighter's College. As for the Skilled and the Divine, I cannot say yet what became of them. The Skilled would probably be trapped somewhere off-plane (a prison a rogue cannot escape, no matter how Skilled), and... perhaps the Divine is being held in some way, to foreshadow how the Saints are?

The way this would work in the narrative is that the Hextorians, upon being defeated, try and inspire the party to realize what they know: Pelor is bad news. Somehow, they would point the party towards that older group of adventurers. This leads to a meeting with the Martial, who recounts their tales fondly, and tries to assuage the party's doubts. If they still suspect, the Martial may direct them to the Arcane, who has gone typical Senile Old Man at this point. Mixed in with his madness and babbling would be hints and truths, (tropes are tools!), and he would ask them to get his friends together for "a party." This starts a search for the Skilled, who would want to free the Divine, knowing that "some sick cult" had beaten them. If the party asks the right questions, it becomes apparent that the culprits were Pelorian. Proceed to a daring rescue.

Then... end game content.

This assumes they follow up the Hextorians' direction, and press on after the Martial. If they don't... well, there might very well be a repeat case of what happened with the last group.
I had a lot of time to think on this today and yesterday, but it is by no means what will happen, nor should it dissuade any of you from offering suggestions to fill the same narrative gap.

As far as priests the party would work with...
I do have one Radiant Father (high priest) characterized. A bent old man from the aforementioned desert region, who speaks in a strained, high tone and wheezes softly during pauses and emphasis. Being a member of Cobra Command the upper echelon, he would be one of the not-so-good guys, and may try and sway the party to the unDark Side over the course of the campaign.
I've also been musing on having a "rival" party also working for the church, that they interact with. This party would just be so goddamn cliche [Good] it hurts.

Malrone
2013-09-27, 01:58 AM
Apologizing up-front for the double post, but it has been some time, and the first couple sessions happened!

The Party, as of now:

Kaiden, Human Healer4
This character is a wimp overall, and is likely going to be replaced next session.

Prichard, Human Swordsage1/Rogue3
A flanker, he leans heavily on ToB for his tricks. A solid combatant, and lives up to his name.

Mara, Human Archivist
A conjurer at heart, this character has a lot of room to grow, but isn't powerful in any regard. The most actively devout in the group.

Thorn, Wood-Elf Barbarian3/Ranger1
The strongest personality and most combat effective character. Socially, she may became an active hindrance if not reigned in by the others.


Since the opportunity to run came suddenly, I was unprepared, and defaulted to running the party through a modified Sunless Citadel (http://www.slideshare.net/guest6ee441/11640-the-sunless-citadel) that they entered at level 2. I managed to make it challenging at key junctures, though a combination of player ingenuity and a few improperly scaled encounters made sure that the characters experienced a total success.

Points of Plot--
The Outcast and the Tree
The dungeon's boss was a well leveled druid and his immediate company. The druid, Belak the Outcast, was so titled because the druidic circles at large felt him too evil. His purpose within the Sunless Citadel was to keep and exploit the Gultias tree, which has several supernatural abilities. One such is the fruit it bears (which may Heal or Harm, depending), and another is that it can corrupt people over a course of a day of constant contact. The resulting character is fully under the tree's control.

The seeds of the tree's fruit grow nasty little low-HD plant creatures. Stealth predators mostly, they travel in groups and pretend to be ordinary shrubbery until prey gets close. These already have spread to the surface, and are capable of reproducing through their roots if left undisturbed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clonal_colony). They are mooks, but I've already established that they are capable of significant growth.

After cutting swaths through the dungeon and a small horde of twig blights, the party smashed the druid soundly, barely avoiding casualties of their own. So far, however, they have not destroyed the tree itself. The druid managed to stabilize, and no one has noticed this fact yet.

The Paladin's Fate
The party was sent to Oakvale, and consequently the dungeon, to discover the whereabouts of a Pelorian paladin that hasn't been heard from in months. Of course, he had been captured by Belak and subsequently corrupted by the Gulthias tree along with his companions. The paladin was slain during the final encounter.

Little People
The Sunless Citadel was being fought over by two tribes, one goblinoid and the other kobold. The party dealt with both with extreme prejudice, killing anything with so much as a point stick in the typical PC fashion. Each side was eliminated on different days, and both tribes resident noncombatants were allowed to flee into the tunnels and hills.

The goblins, I think, will make their way back into a nearby mountain range, where the other goblinoids will become especially incensed and escalate hostilities. The kobolds are a bit more complex, however, since...

Dragon-Blooded, Dragon's Blood
The kobold tribe had a wyrmling white named Calcryx. This is a key facet of the module that isn't explicitly explained within, but the obvious answer to me was that the tribe was given an egg by a patron and sent off to raise it. Oh, how they failed. Normally, a party is expected to work with the kobolds and rescue the dragon from the goblins, or find it organically and kill it. 'Course, there is always a third option.

Having realized myself that the dragon is an infantile idiot, and the size of a housecat, I played up the dramatics of its introduction for comedic effect. This was a resounding success that had players and characters both laughing. They took it so flippantly, in fact, that Thorn opted to grapple/hug it instead of killing it. A dozen grapple checks, another dozen skill checks, and a few odd damage rolls later... they had it pacified.

The dragon is convinced now that it owns Thorn, and that she was the payment for the party's trespasses. It was convinced to escort the party through the rest of its "lair," and managed to be comical at a few junctures, including the final fight; Belak's animal companion nearly killed poor Calcryx, but not before having an ice-cat get its tongue. Now that things are settled, this baby white won't want to leave, though the party still wants to take it with.

Glittering Depths, Glitterhame
The Sunless Citadel contains a rare ferrous ore in its final area that can be used to make steel that is as clear as glass. The party is unaware that this is exactly the case, though they've recognized that the deposits are valuable. They won't be able to exploit this without further questing, such as a trip to a dwarven ruin mentioned in passing within the dungeon.

I understand that the Glitterhame is already fleshed out in the Forge of Fury module, but I want to have a go at making a large dungeon of my own, and would like the location to include things tailored especially to developing the party's metallurgic capability, should they desire to pursue thus. Besides, I think a ruined dwarven fortress (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Reclaim_fortress_mode) makes the perfect home (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Siege) for goblinoid dissidents (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Goblin).

The party is still down in the deeps, so there is time yet before they report back to the Church and take appropriate consequences. I've started a rough of a national-scale map, and have been brainstorming for the next possible adventure. Only Pelor knows when I'll be able to run again, though.