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Mahewa
2013-09-18, 11:38 PM
Hello all.

My friends and I are interested in trying D&D, but none of us know anyone who's familiar with it. Is it possible/advisable to try to start without a single person who knows what they're doing? I'd be up for spending a substantial amount of time learning and figuring things out so I could DM, but I don't want to jump in if it's likely to end in failure.

Aside from general advice on that matter, I'm also looking for advice or links to resources that would help me understand:

The major rulesets or games available and the major differences
What I would need to get started to learn and act as a DM in the different games
What players would need to get started playing


I've definitely spent some time googling all of this, but I couldn't find anything directly on point for my major question, and I'd really appreciate people's opinions on the others.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Honest Tiefling
2013-09-19, 01:04 AM
First of all, nab the 3.5/4e freebie starter kit to save yourselves some cash.

As for only you knowing it? It might be rocky, but would depend on a few factors:
*How well does your group focus/concentrate? How well would they focus on the game, versus, oh, let's say quoting Monty Python.
*How good of a memory or ability to quickly understand rules is your group?
*How good at compromise is your group?
*How much time do people have?
*Are people willing to be patient?
*Have they roleplayed or done similar activities before?

And probably a few other things. If your group functions well, (instead of like a small herd of cats) you could likely slowly introduce the game to them or even toss in preliminary sessions to work characters into plot and introduce basics then. If they are patient, it could work. But my question to you is could the group enjoy learning a new system while hanging out with friends?

As for games, do you just mean DnD?

Madcrafter
2013-09-19, 01:20 AM
It's definitely possible, but it will take a bit of investment on the part of everyone involved to learn (since they will all have to know how to play eventually). If you do some more extensive research beforehand you can help the rest of them out with that; teaching others is the best way to learn after all.
Such an endeavour is unlikely to end in "failure". If worst comes to worst, people just won't like/not grok the game, and you can play something else. While the rules won't likely be transferable, many of the concepts and soft skills can be applied elsewhere, so it shouldn't be a total waste.
Important to remember, is that there's no "wrong" way to play D&D, if your group of friends ends up morphing it into something unrecognizable.

If you're looking for D&D specifically, you've got a couple of different choices available (in order of age). They've all got their advantages and flaws:
-D&D Next: The beta of the newest D&D version, all the materials are free if you sign up and sign the NDA or whatnot, but that also means it's a bit more difficult to find support if you have questions, and the material is constantly changing. For that reason I'd probably suggest not starting here.
-4e: The "current" edition of the game. Mostly a bit easier to understand than the older versions. You'll find plenty of people to ask for advice on the internet if you need help. Won't be free though, so you'll have to invest some to get started.
-3.5e/Pathfinder: The version you'll see most often around these forums, and probably the one most players are familiar with. More cumbersome ruleset, but people like it quite a bit, and it's not to difficult to customize. Lots of support for it around here, and you can find the "core" of the game online for free here (http://www.d20srd.org/). Pathfinder is another version that is pretty similar, but has a few changes, made by a different company. It also has a website with the core game info on it.
-Older versions: Less refined rulesets, but they all have their fans. Most of the books are probably difficult to find, but there are some freely available clones hanging around on the internet.
Overall, I'd probably recommend 4e or Pathfinder, based mostly on availability. They aren't my favourites, but for a new group they're arguably the easiest to get into.
And there are of course a myriad of other games besides D&D, depending on what you're looking for. It all depends on the type of game you want to play.

As for what you'd need to get started, it isn't really an awful lot. Probably at least a set of the core books, though you could manage with an SRD alone if you really wanted to. Being a good DM of course comes a lot from experience. I'm afraid I don't have any web links handy for that, though I'm sure there are some out there, but the main DMG book is pretty decent for a start. In fact, like I mentioned above, the main "DM book" for pretty much any roleplaying game will have advice applicable to D&D, and maybe even a different take on how to do things. The basic thing you'll need to get started though is a story hook, and a place to put it. You don't even need the whole story. How much you want to plan ahead will depend on your skill at improvising, but that's where you'll start from. A decent grasp of the rules helps (though as some stories will attest, isn't required).
Players will hopefully also have a grasp of the rules, and a character. That's about it. The group will also need some polyhedral dice of course, and paper and pencils, character sheets, etc.

Others will be along shortly to give you some better advice I'm sure.

Honest Tiefling
2013-09-19, 01:24 AM
Actually, the heck are you looking for in a system?

As for 4e being free, I think the quick start thingy is still there. Sure it is not the full game, but you will get enough of a taste to know if its the one for you. Found a PDF right here. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/quickstartrules.pdf)

Madcrafter
2013-09-19, 01:26 AM
Actually, the heck are you looking for in a system?

As for 4e being free, I think the quick start thingy is still there. Sure it is not the full game, but you will get enough of a taste to know if its the one for you. Found a PDF right here. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/quickstartrules.pdf)

Mmm, yeah that'd be good for a quick sampler to see if you like the mechanics.

Knaight
2013-09-19, 01:27 AM
It's very much doable. That said, I wouldn't consider any edition of D&D a great system to start with, for a number of reasons. If you're looking for something very much in the style, try Warrior, Rogue, and Mage, at least for a while. If you just want something medieval, try Chronica Feudalis. Both of these are simpler systems that work a lot better for everyone jumping in at once, and Chronica Feudalis is a thing of beauty that is a joy to read, gets everything across well, and is generally wonderful. That said, WR&M isn't by any means bad, and it is also free.

Yora
2013-09-19, 01:44 AM
I started by working myself through the D&D 3rd Edition rulebooks and tought the game to probably 80% of the people I ever played with.

However, I think 3.5e/Pathfinder is one of the most complex games with the biggest books there is. Unless you really, really want to play Pathfinder, I would suggest maybe playing something else with a lot fewer rules. Maybe OSRIC (free) or Myth & Magic. Both are variants of older editions of D&D that are a lot easier to learn and to run.

I am with Knaight in suggesting playing Warrior, Rogue, Mage for a few sessions. Very simple rules that allow you to learn the most important part of playing and running a roleplaying game. D&D has so many numbers and rules that it's very easy to forget that there are other things to roleplaying games than just rushing from one combat to another. Those things that actually make RPGs unique.

kyoryu
2013-09-19, 04:04 AM
Give Dungeon World a spin. It's pretty much my go-to answer for new DMs.

RoyVG
2013-09-19, 04:47 AM
It depends a bit on the level of involvement the players want to have with the system. I'm aswsuming you specifically want D&D, so I'll only talk about the mst common D&D

If the players want to have a lot of involvement and a lot of non-combat options, I would recommend Pathfinder (and by virtue 3.5, but to a lesser extent). It can be found for free here (www.d20pfsrd.com). It's quite an extensive amount of reading for both players and the DM, but it is possible to just roll with it, as long as you just follow a small guide. Many of the things don't come up in play early on and can be skipped. the SRD links everything to everything, making it a lot easier. Keep a laptop or two closeby, follow the small guides provided and you should be ready to go. Maybe spend one day/evening/whatever creating your characters/preparing encounters and familiarize with the system.

If you want to start a little simpler and want more combat oriented play, I recommend 4.0. All classes have a similar chassis, with differences in role being in their abilities. It is still quite an extensive read as well, but is a more friendly system as a whole compared to pathfinder IMO. It does come down to smaller numbers more than 3.5/Pathfinder, where big numbers are more common (especially in later levels). I have less experience with 4.0 because the group I'm in likes 3.5 more, and in the one campaign I did, even then we only reached level 5-6, and haven't been able to see more of the system. The sample PDF in the previous posts give a nice indication of the entire system.

tl:dr. 4.0 is slightly easier and more fighting, Pathfinder/3,5 is bigger numbers and more stuff outside of combat.

Knaight
2013-09-19, 02:17 PM
I started by working myself through the D&D 3rd Edition rulebooks and tought the game to probably 80% of the people I ever played with.

I taught myself D&D 3.0/3.5 (I had a mix of editions), but never really got to use it. I then taught myself some weird game randomly published, and quickly moved to Fudge. I wouldn't recommend any of these - particularly not Fudge. Fudge is a wonderful, wonderful game for new players. For new GMs...not so much.

This sort of thing is mostly why I recommend WR&M and Chronica Feudalis.

Madcrafter
2013-09-19, 04:59 PM
Well, the request was specifically for D&D, though I suppose it's reasonable to assume that as new players to the scene, they might not know about the other options.

So Mahewa, were you specifically after D&D, or would other similar and less cumbersome game suggestions be equally welcome?

Mahewa
2013-09-19, 10:52 PM
First of all, nab the 3.5/4e freebie starter kit to save yourselves some cash.

As for only you knowing it? It might be rocky, but would depend on a few factors:
*How well does your group focus/concentrate? How well would they focus on the game, versus, oh, let's say quoting Monty Python.
*How good of a memory or ability to quickly understand rules is your group?
*How good at compromise is your group?
*How much time do people have?
*Are people willing to be patient?
*Have they roleplayed or done similar activities before?

And probably a few other things. If your group functions well, (instead of like a small herd of cats) you could likely slowly introduce the game to them or even toss in preliminary sessions to work characters into plot and introduce basics then. If they are patient, it could work. But my question to you is could the group enjoy learning a new system while hanging out with friends?

As for games, do you just mean DnD?

Well, my group is entirely composed of lawyers, so there is a pre-disposition to comprehending rules. Compromising shouldn't generally be a problem. As for time, I don't think most people are looking to commit to something that's going to be weekly for a year or anything like that. I think the general feeling is they'd like to try it by doing 1 or 2 3-4 hour sessions. I think they'd be willing to put in time before that to create characters, etc. to be ready to start.

We enjoy hanging out, of course, but I think I'd probably lose them if something's not happening after putting several hours in, on their parts.

I'm not only interested in D&D. I think we'd be interested in most TTRPGs.

Mahewa
2013-09-19, 10:55 PM
Actually, the heck are you looking for in a system?

As for 4e being free, I think the quick start thingy is still there. Sure it is not the full game, but you will get enough of a taste to know if its the one for you. Found a PDF right here. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/quickstartrules.pdf)

I don't think I'm entirely sure, or that my group is either. I think the ideal thing would allow us, as I mentioned in my last response, to maybe have a half-hour tutorial and give people the info needed to make their characters, then be able to have a game we could bring to some kind of resolution in a total of 6-8 hours of group play time. I have no idea if that's reasonable or possible.

Mahewa
2013-09-19, 11:02 PM
It's very much doable. That said, I wouldn't consider any edition of D&D a great system to start with, for a number of reasons. If you're looking for something very much in the style, try Warrior, Rogue, and Mage, at least for a while. If you just want something medieval, try Chronica Feudalis. Both of these are simpler systems that work a lot better for everyone jumping in at once, and Chronica Feudalis is a thing of beauty that is a joy to read, gets everything across well, and is generally wonderful. That said, WR&M isn't by any means bad, and it is also free.

Thanks for this recommendation. I spent a good amount of time today going through the WR&M materials, and that might be exactly what I'm looking for. Also nice that it's free. That being the case, I wouldn't have a problem spending money to get Chronica Feudalis, but I'd like to know more about it before I do. Can you tell me the major differences between the two?

Having read pretty much all of the WR&M materials, if I was to go that route, where do I go from here? Are there pre-written scenarios that I can use, or is pretty much everything on me to make from the few pages of lore from the world it's set in and the list of bad guys?

Mahewa
2013-09-19, 11:05 PM
Give Dungeon World a spin. It's pretty much my go-to answer for new DMs.

I took what you said to mean a website with resources for news DMs, but what I found seemed to be its own game I haven't heard of. Is that what you were referring to? And if so, are you saying it's an easier game for new DMs to run?

Mahewa
2013-09-19, 11:07 PM
Well, the request was specifically for D&D, though I suppose it's reasonable to assume that as new players to the scene, they might not know about the other options.

So Mahewa, were you specifically after D&D, or would other similar and less cumbersome game suggestions be equally welcome?

I am definitely very much open to similar and less cumbersome game options.

Madcrafter
2013-09-19, 11:36 PM
I am definitely very much open to similar and less cumbersome game options.

Well then, if that's the case, and you want a quick start, I wouldn't keep looking at D&D much. Try one of the other suggestions (I mostly only know rules heavy systems myself).

Honest Tiefling
2013-09-19, 11:52 PM
Agreed. As much as I love DnD, I wouldn't really call it easy to play for newbies by a long shot. Try one of the lighter systems suggested, then maybe DnD on down the road if your group thinks it is a good idea.

Knaight
2013-09-20, 01:13 AM
Thanks for this recommendation. I spent a good amount of time today going through the WR&M materials, and that might be exactly what I'm looking for. Also nice that it's free. That being the case, I wouldn't have a problem spending money to get Chronica Feudalis, but I'd like to know more about it before I do. Can you tell me the major differences between the two?
The major differences are that they are completely different games, sadly. However, I can summarize Chronica Feudalis pretty easily:

Chronica Feudalis is a medieval game focused on medieval historic tales, with little to no magic. The core of the game engine is built around 4 similar subsystems: Chase, Combat, Subterfuge, and Parley. All of these include tool use, along with the option to use Aspects, narrative descriptions of a character which are included in the character generation process. That character generation process consists of selecting three mentors, each of which increases 3 skills, making a background, setting up elements of the character that happen "behind the scenes", and the making of Aspects. The dice system consists of rolling dice against a target difficulty or in opposition, usually with the difficulty of 4. Bad skills/tools give you a d4, the best go all the way to d12. You get one die for the skill, one die for the tool, and another die if you choose to use your Aspects, though this has downsides. The best part is how this is packaged - it's written as if it were a found text, made by a bunch of bored monks in a monastery who came up with an RPG to pass time, which means that it is positively dripping with flavor.


Having read pretty much all of the WR&M materials, if I was to go that route, where do I go from here? Are there pre-written scenarios that I can use, or is pretty much everything on me to make from the few pages of lore from the world it's set in and the list of bad guys?
There aren't pre-written scenarios, at least not official ones. That said, the system is pretty simple, so you can just lift scenarios from other places easily enough. One option involves grabbing the starting situation from a film or something, ideally one in a completely different genre recolored to fantasy. It's useful for getting started, though the key is to remember that things will and should diverge.

kyoryu
2013-09-20, 01:44 PM
I took what you said to mean a website with resources for news DMs, but what I found seemed to be its own game I haven't heard of. Is that what you were referring to? And if so, are you saying it's an easier game for new DMs to run?

Yes, it's its own game. And I think it's probably easier for new DMs to run, and run *well*.

Dungeon World and Apocalypse World (DW is a modification of AW) are great games for new GMs and players. They give you a "how to run this game" breakdown in a way that few other games that I know of do. And the lessons you learn from them can easily be applied to other games.