Essentials Fighter (3.5 Revision)

[Chambers]

Essentials Fighter


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1b/TheKnightAtTheCrossroads.jpg/320px-TheKnightAtTheCrossroads.jpg

Title: The Knight At The Crossroads Artist: Viktor Vasnetsov Source: Public Domain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TheKnightAtTheCrossroads.jpg)

Another Fighter Revision?

Yes. This one stemmed from a discussion with Cardea about why I'm not interested in revisiting my Heroic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9826036&postcount=92) classes. It was my first big foray into 3.5 design and a lot of it is simply numbers bloat. There were a few ideas that I thought were interesting but on the whole I don't think they accomplished much worthwhile in making certain classes easier/better to play.

4e design space is a different beast and I talked about how the Fighter in 4th Edition has some very interesting mechanics that make it a viable class. If one were to reverse engineer the 4e Fighter into 3rd Edition it might look and play very similar to the Tome of Battle classes. While I'm a fan of Tome of Battle and think those classes can replace the Fighter, Monk, and Paladin in a game and the game balance be better for it I decided to play around with the 4e Fighter and see what it would actually look like in 3rd.

Not all of the class features below are translations of the 4e Fighter mechanics. Some of them weren't necessary (like the Slayers quick draw) while others are functions of how some things are different in 3rd (such as dealing with creatures immune to critical hits).

For those that like using the Tier System to rate classes I think this Fighter is a solid Tier 4, creeping into low Tier 3 with careful Martial Study selection and optimization. The Fighter here is good at Fighting but doesn't natively have the Supernatural abilities that the Tome of Battle classes can access that grant them a wider range of abilities. And that's fine. If the Dungeoncrasher ACF is all that's need to bring the regular Fighter up to Tier 4 then this Fighter starts there (and possibly stops there as well).

tl:dr

This is a Fighter revision that reverse engineers 4th Edition Fighter mechanics for use in 3rd Edition.

There will be 2 posts following this one: the Fighter revision post and a post containing an expanded list of [Fighter] feats.

[Chambers]

Fighter

Alignment
Any

Hit Die
d10

Class Skills
The fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (History), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Ride (Dex), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str) and Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) ×4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier.



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special Ability


1
+1
+2
+0
+2
Veteran, Bonus Feat


2
+2
+3
+0
+3
Bonus Feat


3
+3
+3
+1
+3
Martial Aptitude


4
+4
+4
+1
+4
Bonus Feat


5
+5
+4
+1
+4
Warrior


6
+6/+1
+5
+2
+5
Bonus Feat


7
+7/+2
+5
+2
+5
Swordmain


8
+8/+3
+6
+2
+6
Bonus Feat


9
+9/+4
+6
+3
+6
Hero


10
+10/+5
+7
+3
+7
Bonus Feat


11
+11/+6/+1
+7
+3
+7
Paragon


12
+12/+7/+2
+8
+4
+8
Bonus Feat


13
+13/+8/+3
+8
+4
+8
Mettle


14
+14/+9/+4
+9
+4
+9
Bonus Feat


15
+15/+10/+5
+9
+5
+9
Martial Fluidity


16
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+5
+10
Bonus Feat


17
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+5
+10
Myrmidion


18
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+6
+11
Bonus Feat


19
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+6
+11
Champion


20
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+6
+12
Named, Bonus Feat




Class Features

All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Fighter Feats (Ex)

At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Veteran (Ex)

At 1st level a fighter chooses her style of combat. This choice cannot be changed.

Knight - The knight places herself at the front line of battle guarding her weaker allies.

Whenever the knight makes a melee attack against an opponent that enemy is Marked by the knight until the end of her next turn, regardless if the knight hits or misses her target. While the target is Marked the enemy takes a penalty to attack rolls and spell saving throw difficulty classes if the enemy makes an attack against someone other than the knight or casts a spell or uses a spell-like or supernatural ability that does not target the knight or include her in its area of effect.

The penalty the target takes is equal to 1/2 the fighters class level (minimum 1).

A creature can only be Marked by one fighter at a time. A new Mark by a different fighter removes and replaces any current Marks.

Slayer - The slayer is a lethal warrior able to cut through swathes of enemies leaving only dead bodies in her wake. Her strikes are deep and even when an enemy turns aside her blade she still leaves a wound.

Whenever the slayer makes a weapon attack and hits she gains a bonus on the damage roll equal to her fighter class levels. When she misses with a weapon attack the target of the attack takes damage equal to half her fighter class levels (minimum 1), except in the case of a Natural 1 and misses due to Miss Chance.

Martial Aptitude (Ex)

A fighter is trained in the ways of war. At 3rd level a fighter learns how adapt her training to the needs of the battle.

After 5 minutes of rest and practice a fighter may swap a number of feats she has that are noted as [Fighter] bonus feats for other [Fighter] feats. She must meet all prerequisites for the replacement fighter feat as normal, at or above the level where she meets the requirements. For example, an 8th level Fighter who selected Blind-Fight for her 2nd level Bonus feat could not replace it with Shock Trooper since the character could not meet the requirements for Shock Trooper at 2nd level. If a fighter swaps out a feat that was a requirement for another feat she has (such as replacing Power Attack while keeping Cleave), she do not gain the benefit of the latter feat until she once again meets the prerequisite.

The number of feats a fighter may swap at once is equal to the fighters level (levels in the fighter class).

Warrior (Ex)

At 5th level the fighter hones her skill at battle.

Knight: The knight is able to keep her enemies from running away. Any opponent hit by a knights attack of opportunity caused by movement is halted, their movement stopped and the rest of their movement for that action wasted.

If a Marked target is within the melee reach of the knight and the target takes a 5ft step the knight may make an attack of opportunity against the target. This attack of opportunity does not count against the knight's normal number of attacks of opportunity in a round.

Slayer: Every weapon is an implement of destruction in the hands of a slayer. As a swift action the slayer may choose for her weapon attacks to deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage; the change lasts until she changes it with another swift action.

The slayers in depth tactical knowledge of her weapon allows her to turn near misses into hits and glancing blows in fatal strikes. Once per round she may roll twice when making a weapon attack and use the result of her choice. In addition, whenever she rolls a 1 on her die when rolling for weapon damage she re-rolls that die until she rolls higher than a 1 and uses that result instead.

Swordmain (Ex)

At 7th level a fighter has experience with more blades, axes, cudgels and other tools of warfare than most people do in their lives. The fighter no longer takes a penalty on attack rolls for attacking with a weapon that is not proficient with (including improvised weapons). She is also considered armed when making an unarmed strike.

Hero (Ex)

At 9th level a fighter has learned the value of quality armor and wears it like a second skin. The fighter no longer takes any armor check penalty for wearing armor or wielding shields and suffers no reduction in speed for wearing armor. She also ignores the weight of her armor when calculating encumbrance by total weight.

Paragon (Ex)

At 11th level level the fighter is an expert in her fighting style. Lesser fighters seek to study at her feet and word of her skill spreads far.

Knight: When the knight Marks an enemy she may choose to Mark all enemies within her melee reach simultaneously.

Slayer: Once per round the slayer may declare a successful weapon attack to be a critical threat.

Mettle (Ex)

At 13th level the fighter learns how to focus her body and mind to shrug off both physical and magical attacks.

If a fighter succeeds on a Fortitude or Will save against an attack that would normally produce a lesser effect on a successful save (such as a spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), she instead negates the effect. A fighter only gains the benefit of Mettle while conscious.

Martial Fluidity (Ex)

At 15th level the fighter has mastered her attack techniques and defensive stratagems and can switch between them in heartbeats. Once per encounter a fighter may use Martial Aptitude as a swift action.

Myrmidon (Ex)

At 17th level the fighter is a master in her fighting style. Her renown among other fighters is legendary and to watch her fight is to see a great master craft a mighty work.

Knight: A target Marked by the knight takes a penalty on attack rolls and spell saving throw difficulty classes if the enemy attacks the knight or casts a spell or uses a spell-like or supernatural ability that targets the knight or includes her in its area of effect. This penalty equals the 1/4 the fighters class level.

The normal penalty for ignoring a knights Mark still applies.

Slayer: When making a weapon attack the slayer ignores the targets immunity to critical hits and sneak attack (if any). This includes magical protections such as armor of Fortification, class features such as the Warshapers Morphic Immunities and natural immunity due to physiology such as enjoyed by Undead and Elementals.

Champion (Ex)

At 19th level the fighter can maim with every attack and kill with every weapon. The fighter gains the Weapon Supremacy feat as a bonus feat even if she does not meet the requirements; this feat cannot be swapped via Martial Aptitude.

Instead of choosing a specific weapon the fighter gains the benefit of the feat when wielding any weapon, including improvised weapons and unarmed strikes. If the fighter has followed the path of the Slayer she may not use her roll twice ability (Warrior) with the ability of the feat to treat a d20 attack roll as 10 on the same attack. She may use both abilities in the same round but they must be used on different attacks.

Named (Ex)

At 20th level the fighter has reached and surpassed the pinnacle of mortal fighting ability. Her name is mythic and tales of her exploits will live on when she lays down her weapon for the last time.

Knight: Once per round as a free action a knight may declare a successful weapon attack by a Marked target to be a miss. The target of the deflected attack must be within the knights melee reach though it may originate from outside it.

Slayer: Once per round as a free action when she makes a weapon attack a slayer may declare a miss to be a critical threat, except in the case of a Natural 1 and misses due to Miss Chance.

[Chambers]

Fighter Bonus Feats

Add the [Fighter] tag to the following feats. In general if a feats prerequisite feat is a [Fighter] feat, then the former feat becomes a [Fighter] feat as well. Feats that would meet this criteria but include other classes mechanics are not included (like a feat requiring Sneak Attack or Smite Evil in addition to a feat that has the [Fighter] tag).

Other additions are things I think make sense for the Fighter to be better at, like having more hit points and using them better (Toughness, Diehard) or gritting through enemies attacks (Great Fortitude, Iron Will, etc).

Example: Danger Sense requires Improved Intiative which is a [Fighter] feat, so Danger Sense gains the tag.

Players Handbook: Endurance, Diehard, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Run, Toughness

Complete Adventurer: Danger Sense, Death Blow, Deft Opportunist, Expert Tactician, Hear the Unseen, Leap Attack

Complete Warrior: Clever Wrestling, Dash, Defensive Throw, Earth's Embrace, Eagle Claw Attack, Extra Stunning, Elusive Target, Eyes in the Back of Your Head, Faster Healing, Fists of Iron, Flying Kick, Hold the Line, Karmic Strike, Kiai Shout, Greater Kiai Shout, Monkey Grip, Pain Touch, Pin Shield, Roundabout Kick, Swarmfighting, Throw Anything, Zen Archery.

[Just to Browse]

The changing of feats is a great idea, but I think the other class features scale too slowly. Swordmain should be 2-4 levels earlier, and Mettle is way too late at 13th level, especially for a tank. I'd probably increase the speed at which these abilities are taken to 150-200% (so your 20th-level abilities are coming in somewhere between levels 10 and 15).

One of the ones that bothers me the most is the Slayer's Myrmidon ability--the slayer is really crappy against enemies and is encouraged to power attack and not crit because he'll probably dole out less damage than the rogue, but as soon as his fortification-ignoring passive comes online, he wants to stack crits like a madman. Like the warlock's ability to fool items, this changes what the fighter is all about with a single level halfway through his career, and I think that's something you should avoid in your design.

Another problem is the lack of out-of-combat abilities, but if that's not your thing then I won't moan about it.

[Chambers]

The changing of feats is a great idea, but I think the other class features scale too slowly. Swordmain should be 2-4 levels earlier, and Mettle is way too late at 13th level, especially for a tank. I'd probably increase the speed at which these abilities are taken to 150-200% (so your 20th-level abilities are coming in somewhere between levels 10 and 15).

One of the ones that bothers me the most is the Slayer's Myrmidon ability--the slayer is really crappy against enemies and is encouraged to power attack and not crit because he'll probably dole out less damage than the rogue, but as soon as his fortification-ignoring passive comes online, he wants to stack crits like a madman. Like the warlock's ability to fool items, this changes what the fighter is all about with a single level halfway through his career, and I think that's something you should avoid in your design.

Another problem is the lack of out-of-combat abilities, but if that's not your thing then I won't moan about it.

Crusaders gain Mettle at 13th level, so that's my comparison point.

I don't understand your claim that they are "encouraged to power attack and not crit because he'll probably dole out less damage than the rogue". The Slayer's bonus damage is a flat bonus and thus multiplied on a critical hit. Furthermore, level 17 does not immediately change the play style; that's assuming that every creature you fight will have immunity to critical hits and critical hits were something to ignore before level 17 because they never happened.

Out of combat abilities? I did mention that this was using the 4e Fighter as a base, right? :smallcool:

Jokes aside, out of combat abilities can be added later if needed. The core of the Fighter class should be whether it is functions well in a fight.

[Person_Man]

Apparently today is Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16056437) fix and Viktor Vasnetsov appreciation day on the homebrew forum. Who knew?

Anywho, I'm not a fan of the "Marked" mechanic from 4E, but you do a good job of representing it in 3.5.

But what's the point of having two different Styles, that the player is locked into forever once chosen? Why not just give the Fighter all of the abilities, or a choice among the abilities as they gain levels? I ask not to criticize, but because I honestly don't know the answer. The subclass concept is fairly popular right now with Pathfinder as well (Archetypes), but I haven't heard a good explanation as to how it makes the game or character creation better.

[Perseus]

The other day (with ok from the DM) I ran a modified 4e fighter (non essentials) in a 3.5 game.

Worked out very well. I didn't think of using the essentials fighter bit I might try this class sometime.

[Zaydos]

Just wanted to say I really like the knight path (I liked the Marked mechanic and it is a good transition to 3.X), not as sure about the slayer path (I'd have to do more math than I want to at the moment to say much about it... I've been doing math problems all day and I don't feel like looking up monster AC and hp to determine what the chance that you can explode things with a scythe is).

One critique: They ought to have the Profession skill (Siege Engineer, Mercenary, Bodyguard) and I'd give them Diplomacy and Knowledge (History) at least.

As for the mettle question, 13th level is a fine one for it because it remains a very powerful ability that is applicable at that level and in fact Fort and Will effects tend to be either minor rider effects on damage (Orb of X) or Negates until high levels. There are exceptions, yes, but it's not till 6th and 7th level spells come online that you need Mettle and 13th level is not too late for it to be relevant. Just my 2cp.

Archetypes: I can't answer for the OP but I liked them back in 2e when they were kits because it gave more variety. In PF I found the rogue ones lackluster. In 4e again it gave you a way of mechanically differentiating two characters of the same class. Ultimately it goes to the same reason people use a class system instead of point buy, it gives a structure for building a character of a certain archetype and then allows for differentiation of said archetype into more specific archetypes as part of the class itself instead of picking up abilities unrelated to that archetype but necessary for other related archetypes. It's a means of adding customization and striking a balance closer to the point buy system without going all the way into point buy.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

This class actually works quite well overall for its intended tier. It offers options (if limited compared to other classes), it is clean and straightforward, and has some interesting abilities. I only have one or two clarification requests and one suggestion;

1) For abilities that work on a miss, do they apply to a miss due to high AC or any kind of miss at all such as from blinking, concealment, mirror image, incorporeality and the like?

2) Do feats that add DR or improve armor get the [fighter] tag?


3) I never got how some sort of "mark" ability would work for a martial class without it being supernatural. Also, why would such a "mark" be capable of penalizing a target that attacked somebody else but not the fighter itself?
Wouldn't it make much more sense to flavor the ability as suppressive fire? I.e. the fighter being trained in how to force enemies to flinch, get distracted, take cover, overbalance, retreat or overreach with her attacks, instead of imposing some sort of nebulous "mark"?
Also, why make it melee only? If the fighter needs a working tanking mechanic, having it work both at melee and at range would make it functional against all sorts of enemies, not just those engaging in melee. And the "tanking" would be accomplished by the enemy either having to go through the entire fight with a serious penalty whether the fighter is actually dealing damage or not, or with them engaging the fighter to kill them and get rid of the penalty sooner.

[Chambers]

Apparently today is Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16056437) fix and Viktor Vasnetsov appreciation day on the homebrew forum. Who knew?

We should totally have a Viktor Vasnetsov appreciation day.


Anywho, I'm not a fan of the "Marked" mechanic from 4E, but you do a good job of representing it in 3.5.

Thanks!


But what's the point of having two different Styles, that the player is locked into forever once chosen? Why not just give the Fighter all of the abilities, or a choice among the abilities as they gain levels? I ask not to criticize, but because I honestly don't know the answer. The subclass concept is fairly popular right now with Pathfinder as well (Archetypes), but I haven't heard a good explanation as to how it makes the game or character creation better.

Zaydos said it pretty well. For myself it's not so much about game balance per se (though that is important) than it is about presenting meaningful choices that have both mechanical and role-playing weight. I think about it more in terms of what the choice means for who and what the character is than what the character can do. Both of them can fight - the choice is an example of how (and possibly why) they fight.


Just wanted to say I really like the knight path (I liked the Marked mechanic and it is a good transition to 3.X), not as sure about the slayer path (I'd have to do more math than I want to at the moment to say much about it... I've been doing math problems all day and I don't feel like looking up monster AC and hp to determine what the chance that you can explode things with a scythe is).

I based the numbers on some very loose calculations about what a Warblade could do damage wise at equivalent levels. Calculations is too strong a word, actually, but figure that a high level Slayer has 4 or 5 attacks a round with a full attack and figure 3 of them hit with one a critical hit counting as an extra hit for a total of 4. That's about 60-ish bonus damage from the Slayer feature while the Warblade has maneuvers that do handfuls of d6's that also ignore damage reduction. Things like Power Attack optimization and magic weapons are stuff that both classes have access to so they don't really need to be considered; just the damage that comes from each classes class features (damage dealing maneuvers versus Slayer damage bonus & Critical Hit features).[/quote]


One critique: They ought to have the Profession skill (Siege Engineer, Mercenary, Bodyguard) and I'd give them Diplomacy and Knowledge (History) at least.

I added Profession so they can choose whichever they want as I don't see it as a big concern. Diplomacy and Knowledge (History) can easily be added as well.


1) For abilities that work on a miss, do they apply to a miss due to high AC or any kind of miss at all such as from blinking, concealment, mirror image, incorporeality and the like?

No, it shouldn't deal damage on a failed attack because of Miss Chance. Added.


2) Do feats that add DR or improve armor get the [fighter] tag?

Probably, yeah. List some and I'll look over them.


3) I never got how some sort of "mark" ability would work for a martial class without it being supernatural. Also, why would such a "mark" be capable of penalizing a target that attacked somebody else but not the fighter itself?
Wouldn't it make much more sense to flavor the ability as suppressive fire? I.e. the fighter being trained in how to force enemies to flinch, get distracted, take cover, overbalance, retreat or overreach with her attacks, instead of imposing some sort of nebulous "mark"?
Also, why make it melee only? If the fighter needs a working tanking mechanic, having it work both at melee and at range would make it functional against all sorts of enemies, not just those engaging in melee. And the "tanking" would be accomplished by the enemy either having to go through the entire fight with a serious penalty whether the fighter is actually dealing damage or not, or with them engaging the fighter to kill them and get rid of the penalty sooner.

What you describe is pretty much what the Mark means. There's no visible Arcane Mark or something that the Fighter tags the enemy with. "Mark" is just a game term to describe a temporary condition imposed by the fighter keeping a careful eye on the enemy.

The idea behind the attack penalty for attacking someone other than the Fighter is that because the fighter is paying careful attention to her enemy she's able to react in the nick of time and interrupt the attack in some way, i.e. slapping the enemies crossbow with the flat of her blade, kicking dust in the eyes of a spellcaster as he casts, etc. When the enemy takes his attention off the fighter she is ready to mess him up.

Mark punishment isn't available outside melee primarily because I think it breaks verisimilitude. Within her reach the fighter controls the tempo of the fight. When enemies are outside her reach it's both literal and a metaphor; beyond her reach the fighter has little impact on others aside from the temporary aftereffects of her putting her Mark on someone (and them then leaving her reach).

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Well, the Mark only applies until the end of the next turn or six seconds so it has to be reapplied, right? Also, most every army/police in the world uses suppression fire at range so its equivalent should work in the game. It's not so much physical control of the fight as it is the threat of potential attack that, if applied correctly, can make other combatants doubt and hesitate.



BTW, what happens if two fighters "mark" the same target? Do the penalties stack?

[Chambers]

Well, the Mark only applies until the end of the next turn or six seconds so it has to be reapplied, right? Also, most every army/police in the world uses suppression fire at range so its equivalent should work in the game. It's not so much physical control of the fight as it is the threat of potential attack that, if applied correctly, can make other combatants doubt and hesitate.



BTW, what happens if two fighters "mark" the same target? Do the penalties stack?

Forgot that part. Another fighters Mark removes and replaces any existing Mark.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

So a 1st level friendly fighter could "mark" you to end the "mark" of a 20th level enemy fighter?

Why not have simply the greater penalty apply? The "last mark used" resolution to apply only between marks of equal level.

[Chambers]

No, it only works on opponents and enemies. It's similar in intent to the Crusader strike that grants the Heal spell; the target must be an enemy.

While I suppose technically one could declare oneself an enemy even though you're on the same side according to the rules that would go against the intent of the ability.

[Zaydos]

I based the numbers on some very loose calculations about what a Warblade could do damage wise at equivalent levels. Calculations is too strong a word, actually, but figure that a high level Slayer has 4 or 5 attacks a round with a full attack and figure 3 of them hit with one a critical hit counting as an extra hit for a total of 4. That's about 60-ish bonus damage from the Slayer feature while the Warblade has maneuvers that do handfuls of d6's that also ignore damage reduction. Things like Power Attack optimization and magic weapons are stuff that both classes have access to so they don't really need to be considered; just the damage that comes from each classes class features (damage dealing maneuvers versus Slayer damage bonus & Critical Hit features).

The problem is weapons with a x3 or x4 crit damage. I actually guessed the damage was about balanced against maneuvers with a longsword, but it's weapons like a scythe that make me worried (effectively giving them 6 hits a turn instead of 4); like I said, though I'd have to do actual math to figure out if it is too much. Though their capstone means they kill balors automatically if they get into melee range (power attack -20 for +40 damage, +20 from class, +10 from strength, +5 magic weapon, 4-8 from weapon [average 6], x4 from crit for 316-332 damage automatically). The optimization involved is taking Power Attack as a feat and getting a Strength of 24 with items. The tarrasque will survive, as will most dragons (if you can get another +~15 damage you start killing dragons on a miss; a collision weapon increases the damage by +5, and it is possible 34 Strength which would increase the damage by +8 which is still enough to almost always kill dragons on a miss), balors and pit fiends auto-die (and that is every CR 20 creature in the monster manual :smallsigh:).

An idea is if you're using 2x crit for your calculation instead of using critical hits just say double damage, this would be better for a crit fisher build but normalize the effect across the board instead of making Slayer be "wield a scythe". This would have the potential problem of getting around crit immunity from low levels.

Edit: The sigh is because I've started memorizing their stats and there are too few with only 2 non-unique non-dragon options.

[Just to Browse]

There is no crit-stacking encouragement in D&D because taking feats that improve your chance to hit and power attack bonuses by default out-damage feats that improve critical hit chance and damage. That's why the standard melee build uses shock trooper / leap attack / PA, and not improved crit / overwhelming crit / power crit.

Since the slayer is supposed to be about dealing damage, players will take the better damage paths (power attack with big swords) until they get that ability that auto-confirms crits, at which point they'll all regret using swords instead of scythes and power attack instead of devastating critical.

Heck, even for a player specializing in crits, getting the auto-confirm ability messes with incentives. If you want to be a crit-specialist, you want to use rapier and improved critical and buff your crit range a lot, but getting 1 attack per round to automatically score a crit means that chance-stacking loses a bunch of worth.

I'm just thinking that if you have some sort of auto-crit mechanic, it should either a) Come with an overhaul of the crit system, b) Come earlier in the leveling scheme so players can build around it organically, or c) rewrite it to mesh with the current critical system (double chances instead of auto-declare, make it a x2 "critical", something else).

Also, mettle is a sad feature for 13th level crusaders, and is equally sad here. I really wouldn't use non-maneuver features from that class as your reference point. I mean, at level 20 they can delay a whole 30 damage for one round. Wahoo.

[Carl]

Zaydes i'm pretty sure the SRD say's only a weapons base damage is multiplied by crits. So your looking at more like 40+10+5+((20+6)*4) = 159. It's stil a big number but not what your claiming. STart brining in non-core stuff that allows a flat multiplier on all of an attack's damage and it's a different mater.

[Zaydos]

Zaydes i'm pretty sure the SRD say's only a weapons base damage is multiplied by crits. So your looking at more like 40+10+5+((20+6)*4) = 159. It's stil a big number but not what your claiming. STart brining in non-core stuff that allows a flat multiplier on all of an attack's damage and it's a different mater.


A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

Nope. You roll damage 4 times with all the usual bonuses and add them together. Only extra dice aren't multiplied.

[Chambers]

The problem seems to be the level 20 feature then. I'll change it.

Slayer: Once per round as a free action when she makes a weapon attack a slayer may declare a miss to be a critical threat, except in the case of a Natural 1 and misses due to Miss Chance.

Now there's no guaranteed critical hit.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

A good idea for testing a class is against itself, usually with two wildly different builds.

1) Can the class kill itself in one round? If yes, consider lowering offense or improving defense.
2) Can the class survive against itself for more than 10 rounds? if yes, consider lowering defense or improving offense.


So, ability scores of 16/16/12/10/10/10, or 30 point-buy, which by lvl 20 becomes 28/30/18/10/16/10. She's wearing +5 mithral celestial plate, ring of protection +5, ring of natural armor +5, and using a +5 greatbow of speed, for which she has improved critical, greater focus, greater specialization and improved rapid shot. Her AC is 44. Her attack bonus is +37/+37/+37/+32/+27/+22. Her HP are 200.
If she's a slayer, her attack will deal 1d12+38 on a hit and 10 on a miss. From her attacks, one is naturally a critical, three are normal hits and two will miss, on average. However, being a slayer, she rerolls her second lowest roll and gets a better result, making another hit, turns her last miss into a critical threat and turns one of her normal attacks into a critical threat. Thus, on average, three critical threats (two of which confirm) and three normal hits, on average, against her own AC. That's a 300+ on damage, which means she can kill herself.

A knight with the same stats would probably use a +5 heavy shield and a longsword. She has an AC of 53 and, if she manages to mark her target after the charge she does the first round, the Slayer's attack bonus drops to +32. However, he still gets to do 60 damage/round despite the misses so he still wins in 3-4 rounds.




Essentially, against itself this class tends towards rocket tag if both are slayers, and the slayer wins over the knight.

[Carl]

Thanks Zaydos. At some point in the past i must have miss-read the last line and remembered that. That is kind of silly, but let's be fair, it' more because Power Attack is so broken when you bring feat's like stormtrooper in that let you take the full -20, that was never intended to be possible with the feat as written against on level opponent's.

[Chambers]

I think that's more a function of how easy it is to optimize damage than an issue with the class. I'm sure a Pouncing Leap Attack barbarian could also kill itself in one round.

[Carl]

Yeah but that's also a function of Power attack stupidity. Let's assume it was limited to the BAB of the last iterative attack. So -5. That's 10 points extra damage base, An ubercharger barb build can pull a 3* multiplier on the power attack bonus, and then a 3* on the whole lot on top. So that's about +90 Damage total from Power Attack, compared to the +360 extra you normally see. It's a huge difference in the punch of things like that.