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iwantmyjetpack
2013-09-22, 04:15 PM
Are they mutually exclusive?

I have put a project of mine on hold until i can get this answered. What i have been lead to beleave is this: If your race has wings, you have to take the fly feat to fly. But if you want to be able to glide, you have to have the glide feat as well.

With some Dnd creatures, i can see this. So does the average bird have glide and flight as feats? Because i think the bird/race with big wings should be able to glide without the feat.

Take it away people. If i have to, i'll build racial levels, but if i can i'd like to keep it at LA1.

EDIT: If there is a difference between how this works in 3.5 and Pathfinders, please explain and clarify.

Palanan
2013-09-22, 08:59 PM
I'm not an expert on flight mechanics, in-game or real-life, but I've never heard anything about a creature with wings needing to take a feat called "Fly." I've never heard of it, and looking at the 3.5 Feat Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats), there doesn't seem to be one listed.

I've also never seen either of these feats included in the stats for creatures in the Monster Manuals, nor anywhere else. If a creature has functional wings, by definition it can fly; it doesn't need to spend a feat slot to verify what its body plan already allows. For examples, take a look at the eagle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm), owl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/owl.htm), and raven (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/raven.htm) from the SRD.

Has someone been telling you these feats exist? If so, where are they supposed to be from?

.

Fako
2013-09-22, 09:20 PM
No race in D&D that has inherent flight requires a feat to fly, or to glide. You might be thinking of the Raptoran race, which has Gliding as a racial feature, followed by an upgrade to Flight at 5 HD.

Or you may be thinking of the feat Improved Flight, which some races require in order to qualify for other feats (such as Hover).

Or you may have found the feats for Ghosts or Dragonblooded, which give them flight and glide abilities, but consider that the races cannot naturally fly, so these feats allow for them to reach higher areas than the norm for their type.
NOTE: The template in the Monster Manual for ghosts grants a fly speed of 30 feet. The feats for ghosts I am referring to are in Ghostwalk, and are intended for members of the ghost classes. The feats for Dragonblooded are in Races of the Dragon, as far as I can recall.

Basically, to fly a race needs a Fly Speed, be it magically or naturally. The race itself may add restrictions (such as maneuverability quality, maximum load, time aloft, etc), but those are not inherent in the ability to Fly. A creature that can Fly might be able to Glide if needed (such as when paralyzed or unconscious), but this would need to be stated as a special quality in the race (such as an organic fail-safe that locks the wings in place, should they no longer be able to control them).

Also, consider that having natural flight in a race will always warrant a penalty of some sort. For the Raptorans, it doesn't kick in properly until higher level. For the Ghosts and Dragonblooded, it requires feat expenditure. All other races have a level adjustment imposed due to the extra power and mobility afforded to them by being able to fly. So expect to pay something (be it time, feats, xp, gold, spell slots, power points, etc) in order to gain the ability to fly.

iwantmyjetpack
2013-09-22, 09:50 PM
I'm sorry to do this to you, but i'm gonna post a link to another thread. This is the project i mentioned in my op.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285056

What i'm trying to say is this: When i was building this race, i was given he impression that a winged flying feat and a gliding feat were different, and that you needed both to be be able to fly or glide if you had the other.

I really hope i didnt miss something or misread.

Fako
2013-09-23, 12:00 AM
I'm sorry to do this to you, but i'm gonna post a link to another thread. This is the project i mentioned in my op.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285056

What i'm trying to say is this: When i was building this race, i was given he impression that a winged flying feat and a gliding feat were different, and that you needed both to be be able to fly or glide if you had the other.

I really hope i didnt miss something or misread.

First off, thank you for linking to the original thread, as it makes understanding the situation easier.

Second, it's not something you have misread, rather your use of incorrect terminology that caused the prior confusion. Races don't inherently grant "feats", unless they are "bonus feats". Instead, they grant Racial Abilities (which are active options for the character, such as a Dragon's Breath Weapon) and Racial Qualities (which are passive options, such as wings that allow flight).

With that said, both Flight and Gliding are separate Racial Qualities. Debihuman's assessment of their power is correct: Gliding is weak enough to not incur a level adjustment, but flying (being stronger) typically incurs +1 level adjustment of its own accord. If you want both, the race needs to provide both. Now, typically a race that can fly doesn't bother with being able to glide, since gliding is in all ways inferior to actual flight. The only time you would care for both is as a "fail-safe" measure, where the gliding will kick in should you become unable to fly, thereby preventing you from crashing face first into the ground. Even so, it's possible to build that into the winged description of the race, if desired.

If you need it, the main differences are spoilered below:
With a Fly speed, a character is able to move around freely in the air. They can fly up at half their Fly speed, dive at double their speed, and move forward at normal speed. Maneuverability will adjust how quickly they can turn, and is dictated in the Monster Manual.

If a character can Glide, they are given a fly speed that isn't actually a fly speed. They cannot use this speed to go up or down, but they can use it to go forward a set distance each round. However, each round they do this they slowly lose altitude, and must move the set distance each round (or stop gliding). Maneuverability is the same as above.

If you wish to have the safety net of gliding, you can provide the following Racial Quality:

Wings: An Icarun has large wings, providing them the ability to fly with average maneuverability. Their base fly speed is 60', and any effects that improve their base land speed improve their fly speed by an equal amount. Furthermore, the structural setup of an Icarun's wings causes them to unfurl should the Icarun lose the ability to fly while in the air. This causes them to descend in a tight corkscrew, only taking 1d6 falling damage when they hit the ground. This reduction in damage is lost if they are unable to unfurl their wings for some reason.

This provides 1) Your fly speed and 2) your "safety net" should you find yourself disabled in the air. It also allows base effects to improve your flight speed, without causing a knee-jerk reaction from the DM from having all effects from feats and spells doubled (example: Footsteps of the Divine is a Clr 3 spell from Complete Champion. Choose the boon granted by Fharlanghn to gain +50 to your base speed. With your original wording, this would provide a +100 to your fly speed.