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View Full Version : How to Make Magic Weapons Special Again



johnbragg
2013-09-25, 10:19 PM
This would work best in an E6-type campaign.

1. Very few magic items are actually permanent. Most utility magic items are enchanted for a long term, but the magic does wear off. This applies to weapons and shields, too. Detect Magic will tell you roughly how long that +1 sword is still going to be +1.

2. No bonus stacking. No Greater Magic Weapon, no Gloves of Dex +4.

(So far, I know it sounds like "mundanes can never have nice things" Just hold on.)

"True" magic weapons (bonus greater than +1) are not created by mages alone. A true magic weapon requires three components--a master smith to create a museum quality weapon, a mage or cleric to handle the magic, and a hero to make the weapon his own.

But the biggest part is "the hero to make the weapon his own." It starts as a regular +1 weapon, but as the hero fights with the weapon, faces dangers, slays enemies, etc the weapon starts to absorb the hero's skill.

At the end of the process, after numerous heroic deeds performed with the weapon (i.e., hero used it as primary weapon for more than 1/2 a level), and a few more rounds of enchanting and fiddling by the master smith, the weapon is a "true magic weapon" with a bonus equal to half of the hero's Base Attack Bonus. In addition, the weapon has a special quality or qualities related to the hero it is bonded to.

Often the creation of the weapon will require specific components depending on what effects you want. (Orcbane weapon is quenched in orc blood. Dragonbane weapon, maybe some special oil sprinkled with the tears of the relatives of the lost townsfolk. Flaming burst weapon, alchemists' fire. Gems either embedded in the weapon, or ground up and added to the molten metal. Insert appropriate fluff.)

Now, what happens when the hero passes on? Well, not just anyone can use the weapon as more than a +1 "minor magic weapon". A "worthy heir" can use it as a +2 weapon, with some access to the special qualities. "Worthy heir" is for the DM and player to work out, but basically, would the hero for whom the blade was forged be proud? A +3 dwarven ogrebane blade won't give a human +2, but it will do its bonus damage vs ogres. But a +3 dwarven ice axe wielded by a human paladin is just a +1 battleaxe.

This also means story hooks--you've recovered the Waraxe of Dwarven King Afric. You really should be getting that back to its rightful owners, you know. Not doing so would be an insult, and the local king wouldn't be thrilled with you. And bringing back that sort of artifa--I mean, that sort of historically significant weapon is going to be rewarded by the dwarven lords.

bobthe6th
2013-09-25, 11:11 PM
Issues:
1) this requires 2 other characters to make any of the equipment you need.

2)You can't even loot this stuff. This makes life hard, and loot suck.

3)This is rather fluff specific. My character has used this simple longsword since he first could lift it. He knows every contour, how to get the most out of it. Now he is level 6 and needs some magical boosting... so he has to toss it on the rubbish pile and get a prettier sword made. Yeah... so.. um... yeah.


I mean... why not just make the enhancement bonus a general scaling bonus to hit and damage based on level(or BAB), and make magic items unique wondrous items. So rather then a +5 adimanitne ogerbane axe, you find Giants Bane. It glows greedily when it tastes giants blood, and grows. When attacking a giant, it is treated as the size of that creature for damage rolls.

johnbragg
2013-09-25, 11:37 PM
Issues:
1) this requires 2 other characters to make any of the equipment you need.

2)You can't even loot this stuff. This makes life hard, and loot suck.

It does make loot suck.


3)This is rather fluff specific. My character has used this simple longsword since he first could lift it. He knows every contour, how to get the most out of it. Now he is level 6 and needs some magical boosting... so he has to toss it on the rubbish pile and get a prettier sword made. Yeah... so.. um... yeah.

Yeah, I have to figure out a way to upgrade regular weapons. Your daddy gave you that ordinary sword. That weapon should be bonded to you, your legendary weapon.

So maybe you can upgrade your weapon with fancy doodads so that it's true-magic-weapon eligible?

Or you take that looted magic weapon, and if you're a "worthy heir", you can get it re-enchanted to its full potential? So if you acquire a true magic weapon at second level, that's why you switched from longsword to mace, taking Weapon Focus (Mace) and Weapon Specialization (Mace).

bobthe6th
2013-09-25, 11:45 PM
It does make loot suck.
...which is a bad thing when you are reliant upon it to stay relevant.

johnbragg
2013-09-26, 07:41 AM
...which is a bad thing when you are reliant upon it to stay relevant.

True, but that's mostly a Linear Fighter Quadratic Wizard problem, which E6 mitigates.

I'm just not crazy about the feel of taking your captured +1 keen battleaxe to a swap meet where you can pick up the boots of speed and +3 longsword you really want, as if magic items come with a MagicMart gift receipt attached.

I'd also like to create an advantage to fighters using weapons besides longswords and greatswords. "We found this sweet concussion warhammer that was Somecompatiblehero's. When SCH hit with the weapon, his enemies were shaken, not as a fear effect but as a concussion effect, taking a -2 on all d20 rolls until he makes a DC 15 Fort save." (Because characters talk like that.) "I'm switching from the +1 longsword I found and making this my weapon now." Because if the character makes it his weapon, and spends the time and resources to re-enchant it, he unlocks the full power of the "+3 concussion warhammer, and on a critical hit the opponent is Dazed for 1 round."

Veklim
2013-09-27, 12:00 PM
I like the principle certainly, brings magic weaponry back to the 'Tolkein Perspective' of play... I also agree that within E6 it's perfectly sensible.

On another note, an old blade can be reforged easily enough by a master smith, it was done so many times in the past (both literally and in fiction), especially since once upon a time, a single sword represented a decade of wealth or more for the common man. These were also the times when blacksmiths were most revered as men of magic and power, it's likely the sword Arthur pulled from the stone comes from stories of early sword forging techniques using an upright stone mould.

So the weapon which has been passed down through 4 generations of your family, which has no special qualities except as a nicely functional heirloom, could easily be reforged, engraved with runes, rehandled even (I often allow small magical upgrades for weapons by presenting enchanted pommels, guards and grips, as well as triggers, bowstrings, gems and the like), in order to make your mundane heirloom a weapon of magic quality.

As far as the enchanting process itself is concerned, I don't see the issue in needing 3 people to create the weapon or armour(?) concerned. As the rules stand at the moment, you technically have 3 roles, the crafter, the enchanter and the user (even though this could be the same person), so this in not that different surely? Of course, the significant addition is the need to use and develop the weapon essentially 'mid-enchanting' which is a nice effect for storytelling and allows (with little imagination) a weapon to become it's own legend, alongside the hero who wields it's might.


2)You can't even loot this stuff. This makes life hard, and loot suck...

...which is a bad thing when you are reliant upon it to stay relevant.

You can loot it to an extent, it's still worth a fair bit as a highly crafted item. More to the point...why does loot HAVE to be magical with this method in place anyhow? You don't need to rely so much on it if the rules incorporate a way of moulding your equipment to the character in this manner do you? The same could be done for many magical items and clothing, jewellery and trinkets made from trophies and gifted keepsakes, even specialist equipment (skill kits, portable labs, etc). This way the majority of your loot kinda needs to be cash and exotic goods/ingredients instead, because you need to access and pay for the (relatively few) master smiths and casters about to aid in the enchanting process. Which leads me to think;

This presents a REALLY useful and honestly irresistible set of plot hooks throughout the campaign, where various group members have a vested interest in getting to and assisting the small monastery in the mountains, because that is the only place for three hundred miles where they may be able to find a master smith capable of reforging a blade to incorporate the adamantium they have acquired into their weapons. Of course, once that is done, there will be the trek to find a temple or academy for the priests and/or mages required to do the enchanting, but by then, you have a blade with which you have grown familiar on the journey to the smith, had reforged with the toughness and sharpness to cut through almost anything, fought further with it to get to the temple, and this is all before the enchanting itself starts. The magic part is then as simple as binding the work already done, simply to stop it from ebbing away like lesser weapons do...

These steps can be taken as quickly, slowly, easily or awkwardly as the DM desires, custom fitting the idea into balance terms as well, whereby the DM can dictate pretty accurately how much time, experience and game-play must go into gaining these items without ever needing to railroad a campaign. All you need do is present the options and allow them to make their minds up as to when and where they go for these things.

Lappy9001
2013-09-27, 12:15 PM
I love the 'suitable heir' mechanic, that's a pretty awesome idea and has great hooks. One thing you'll need to do is you never specified the type of bonus these weapons grant. I'm assuming it's enchantment like normal, but you should specify because untyped bonuses get wacky (possibly profane/sacred based off the wielder's alignment?).

It might be a good idea to creat new weapon properties, you know, things that provide powers instead of bonuses. Makes each magic item feel like a mini-artifact.

johnbragg
2013-09-27, 12:41 PM
So the weapon which has been passed down through 4 generations of your family, which has no special qualities except as a nicely functional heirloom, could easily be reforged, engraved with runes, rehandled even (I often allow small magical upgrades for weapons by presenting enchanted pommels, guards and grips, as well as triggers, bowstrings, gems and the like), in order to make your mundane heirloom a weapon of magic quality.

Thanks. That definitely helps the effect I was going for. And that stuff can all be done to an "ordinary" heavy flail +1 which the PC finds at first level. ("Ordinary" meaning "under a long-term but temporary enchantment"--maybe 2d6 months?)


Of course, the significant addition is the need to use and develop the weapon essentially 'mid-enchanting' which is a nice effect for storytelling and allows (with little imagination) a weapon to become it's own legend, alongside the hero who wields it's might.

Right. Any wizard (or caster) can make a weapon a +1 weapon for not much more than the effort taken to create a potion or wand. But to create a weapon of legend, you need more.


You can loot it to an extent, it's still worth a fair bit as a highly crafted item. More to the point...why does loot HAVE to be magical with this method in place anyhow?

Well, when you kill an ogre who was whacking you with a +1 weapon, you should get a +1 weapon out of the deal. (Even if +1 weapons are accepted as having the lifespan of wands). But when you get a chance to look that weapon over and notice that the blade is covered in dwarven runes or celtic knots, the grip is wrapped in silver thread, and the "stone" in the grip is recognized by the master smith of the town as a huge knucklebone, you've come across something special.


You don't need to rely so much on it if the rules incorporate a way of moulding your equipment to the character in this manner do you? The same could be done for many magical items and clothing, jewellery and trinkets made from trophies and gifted keepsakes, even specialist equipment (skill kits, portable labs, etc).

I don't know how much of this I'd want to do. Without care, you could end up having every character working on supercharging an item in every "slot." I figure you can only pour your legendary awesomeness into one or two items, max. So if the rogue is working on legendary boots of stealth, his lockpick set is top quality but ordinary. Although "ordinary" in a fantasy setting doesn't mean they don't give a +5 bonus instead of a +2 bonus for as long as the enchantment lasts.


This way the majority of your loot kinda needs to be cash and exotic goods/ingredients instead, because you need to access and pay for the (relatively few) master smiths and casters about to aid in the enchanting process. Which leads me to think;

No, you can still have plenty of +1 weapons and armor floating around. But they're less valuable, because they're not going to _stay_ +1 weapons forever.


This presents a REALLY useful and honestly irresistible set of plot hooks throughout the campaign,

You could absolutely take it in that direction, although the DM gets extra homework to not make it a railroad--the players would have to have options for different craftsmen, and options for different casters.

You could also take it in the direction of, this is a dwarvencrafted blade. The dwarves will be quite unhappy with its non-dwarven owner possessor. But you bold heroes could go on a diplomatic mission to return it, strengthening the alliance between the city and the Dwarven Lords. And the rules of honor and hospitality mean that the heroes would get some kind of a reward from those same Dwarven Lords.

johnbragg
2013-09-27, 12:44 PM
I love the 'suitable heir' mechanic, that's a pretty awesome idea and has great hooks. One thing you'll need to do is you never specified the type of bonus these weapons grant. I'm assuming it's enchantment like normal, but you should specify because untyped bonuses get wacky (possibly profane/sacred based off the wielder's alignment?).

I was thinking just straight "enchantment bonus." True owner gets +3 (including a "new" true owner who has "walked the walk" described above), worthy heir gets +2, random dude gets +1.


It might be a good idea to creat new weapon properties, you know, things that provide powers instead of bonuses. Makes each magic item feel like a mini-artifact.

Some could be based off of the feat chains, but you'd have to figure it out individually. Which is kind of the point, isn't it? Also, exactly how does Sven the Tricky's weapon of tripping help Sven, who already has the tripping feats?

Lappy9001
2013-09-27, 12:48 PM
Some could be based off of the feat chains, but you'd have to figure it out individually. Which is kind of the point, isn't it? Also, exactly how does Sven the Tricky's weapon of tripping help Sven, who already has the tripping feats?I know, it's just always a good idea to include some precedent into the sub-system :smallsmile:

johnbragg
2013-09-27, 01:49 PM
I know, it's just always a good idea to include some precedent into the sub-system :smallsmile:

True. Part of the idea came from looking at my new PDFs of the BECMI set, and remembering how common "bane" weapons used to be. Half the swords table is +1/+2 vs Undead, +1/+3 vs dragons, etc.

So one big category is Bane weapons. Extra +1(maybe +2?) to hit, double damage.

Another big category is adding a first-level spell effect a couple of times per day.

I'm also playing with major and minor powers, but haven't fleshed that out yet.

nonsi
2013-09-27, 04:33 PM
I like the idea a lot.
I really wish they didn't make things so easy in 3e, with WBL and magical marts.
To me a lot of the magic is lost when characters need to glow like Christmas trees to keep up.

johnbragg
2013-09-27, 05:11 PM
I like the idea a lot.
I really wish they didn't make things so easy in 3e, with WBL and magical marts.
To me a lot of the magic is lost when characters need to glow like Christmas trees to keep up.

That's a big reason, for me. I also like splitting magic items into minor and major magic items. Minor magic items are temporary, like a sword +1 with a limited duration, either in months or in attacks, or a potion or a scroll. They can, to some extent, be treated like commodities.

I think I just solved the riddle for myself. Minor magic weapons and minor wondrous items are created like wands--*exactly* like wands. So a +1 sword is created with 50 charges, for a cost of 375/570 gp. (Or boots of haste, 5,625/11,250 gp, 50 charges) And let's say that recharging is easier than starting from scratch, so a used +1 sword is worth at least 375 gp.

So you rearrange the Item Creation feats. Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion don't change much, but now you have Craft Charged Item and Craft Major Magic Item. Would anyone care if Craft Staff, Forge Ring, and Craft Rod were collapsed into one feat? Especially if there were more to creating a magic item than taking a pile of gold to WizMart and casting a spell.

Hovannes
2013-10-04, 09:40 AM
I actually agree with you with respect to the ‘un-impressiveness’ of magical weapons. There comes a point in the game where a magical weapon/item is required or you don’t count as a serious hero. That said, I don’t think the problem can be totally fixed simply by added/creating new rules specific to magical item creation/advancement.

I do however, see where you are going with the ‘weapon becomes more powerful’ as the person wielding it completes various quests/campaigns.

In order for ‘magic’ and magical items to regain their uniqueness (if you will) a dynamic shift is required on a global level. Let me explain.

In a world I have created (Equran) the amount of magic varies as history unfolds. With this variance, the importance of magical spells/items also varies. Items created by mortals are ‘plugged’ into or fed by the amount of magic within the world. I look at magical items as like a tiny node of magic rather than a static item with specific powers. Thus, a weapon (say a +3 Dragon Slayer) created during the height of the first magical era some 3000 years ago would only function as a +1/+2 weapon versus reptiles in an era with a lower relative magical level. The value of such an item does not change however, because in a low magic era, the number of dragons that exist also drops significantly.

Now let’s say that the magical weapon is transported to a different time or an outer plane where the relative amount of magic on the plane is much greater, then the ‘tiny node’ would absorb some of that magic and thus perhaps regain some of its old glory. Or if the weapon is on a chaotic plane, it may even have some alterations to its original set of magical properties.

I focus on the enchanter of the magical item, more so than the person that forged or wields the items for its uniqueness. I ALWAYS require that the creation of a magical items needs a personal sacrifice (read as experience points) commonly when the weapon is made permanent. It is precisely this sacrifice that makes the item unique, even when compared to others of its ‘class’ and potency. So in a way, its similar to your concept, but with the focus being on the enchanter rather than the wielder.

Further, as a GM my beasties commonly use generic magical items (+1 sword, +3 shield, etc). If however, these items are recovered by the PCs and identified, their true history is injected into the game. Even though the magical item, say a +1 long sword, has a standard mechanics bonus of +1, I typically give the weapon a special quirk (not necessarily a negative one). These quirks can be cosmetic (embossed lettering, mounted gems, etc), material based (silvered blade, stone/crystal blade, etc), or simply a magical aspect such as the weapon glows with a pail white light on the nights of the new moon.

I always leave the door open, even on a simple magical item like a +1 sword, for possible improvement – this is done by making magical mysterious and unpredictable to a limited extent. If the players know everything about a given item up front, then it becomes a mundane weapon that also happens to have a +1 bonus. This is the reason that identification type spells are greatly controlled and/or offer limited information when used.

Finally, I have a few items that are ‘tied’ to a hereditary line. These items are often semi-intelligent and become involved in the game on different levels. I like to find mundane uses for these items such as a sword that doubles as a key, or an amulet of protection that also contains a mundane decryption code engraved into its design. These items then become plot devices as well as magical items. Often, by completing a quest or goal these items will become more powerful as well. I have had players pass up more powerful but ‘generic’ magical items simply to hold on to one that is less powerful but more unique. This does require superior gamers however.

Just my two cents;