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Blood
2006-12-28, 09:47 PM
Why does everyone hate Miko? It is very obvious that most people on the forums have a very negative attitude toward Miko and her general actions. I hate to start yet another thread about Miko, but I need to know: why is she so infamous? I don't find her my favorite character, but she is the source of plenty of punchlines and altogether another humorous character in the comic.

I can't think of a strong reason for someone to dislike Miko. There has to be something that I'm missing if so many people do. Please enlighten me.

theKOT
2006-12-28, 10:02 PM
My brain hurts. If you want to know why people hate Miko, go through all the dead threads about it simply via the search function. See, someone is going to respond to this with a mostly factual statement that contains some glaring opinionated falsehoods then my hand will, ignoring my brain's protests, be forced to reply in a Miko pro v. con war, round 11,045.

Iranon
2006-12-28, 10:09 PM
The arguments have been rehashed either ways... apparently it is a matter of perception. Personally, I find her a lot more tolerable than most people of her nominal alignment.

Blood
2006-12-28, 10:18 PM
My brain hurts. If you want to know why people hate Miko, go through all the dead threads about it simply via the search function.
That's the problem. I have read through many threads regarding Miko, and many people will mention that they hate Miko, but not provide backing when the pro-Miko people argue with them. Obviously, I could have missed something, but I'm starting this thread instead.

I'm looking for the reason people hate Miko. I don't particularly want a Miko pro vs. con war, at least at the moment. When I figure out why Miko is disliked, maybe I can start supporting either side.

Kaerbek
2006-12-28, 10:20 PM
Hi everyone, new guy in the forum, i've been reading the comic since its beginning so, here I am.

About the Miko controversy:

Miko is a Paladin, she represents everything that's pure, good, right, divine and lawful. She protects the innocent and the weak and she fights for everything she belive is right to make the world a better placer.

Great.

But being a Paladin, brings a lot of controversy itself, because paladins are suposed not to fight ONLY for good causes, buy also to be good persos, nice and polite, their high carisma make them look reliable and trustworthy, things that Miko is not.
Why no one likes miko? she's a paladin, that's enough reason to like her whether you like her temper or not. False, having a bad temper is what makes her image to go down.
Miko was instructed in the ways of the Samurai, the Paladin and is under the feudal reing of Lord Sojo, too Lawful for my taste, she is also a champion of the gods: lawful + divine. She was raised in a monastery: lawful + divine + a conservative mind that leads her to a puritane vision of everything. I'm just guessing here, but I think Miko in a future will turn into a Blackguard, she's too lawful, she'l eventually go to a moral dilema between what's really right and what she's been taught is right, plus, that encounter with Xikon makes it clear that she's being too paladin to be just a normal human.

About plotlines and humor, true, she give some flavor to gags, scenes and humorous situations, but even Xikon, being the bad guy as it is, has better temper than Miko, in fact, Xikon is my favourite character of all the comic xD

I hope that make you understad a bit :)

p.s: I'm from Argentina, so, my english is not great, if I make a mistake, please correct me, I still want to learn :)

TinSoldier
2006-12-28, 10:59 PM
I am unable to understand some peoples' (in my opinion) irrational dislike for the character. The dislike that goes beyond disliking her and her attitude as an individual but that goes into actively disliking her being included as a character in the comic at all.

However I can understand some peoples' dislike of her and her attitude as an individual: She seems unsympathetic towards others, she keeps her own emotions closely guarded, she seems to hold duty and honor above the good of others, she tells others when they are wrong, she expects others to live up to her high standards.

And basically what Kaerbek said right above which was very well reasoned and readable :smallbiggrin: .

Especially the judging of others, many people find that to be extremely annoying. Also many people here have played in groups with paladins more similar to Miko than not and they may have had bad play experiences because of it.

I can understand their point of view even if I disagree with portions of it.

Ampersand
2006-12-29, 12:26 AM
In my opinion, it basically comes down to two facts.

1: The OotS are the protagonists

2: Miko does not like, is more powerful than, and is mean to the protagonists.

That's essentially what it comes down to, but whether consciously or not it's unlikely anyone would admit that. For example, people might say they dislike Miko because she's judgemental and rude, while completely overlooking the fact that Roy is at least as bad as she is. However, since he is a protagonist, he gets a free pass in that regard, while Miko is strung up for it.

Mike_G
2006-12-29, 01:16 AM
From a narrative standpoint, she's a great character.

But I'd choke her if I had to deal with her for real. The sharp rocks a pillows, the preaching, ordering the OotS around without learning their names, that would make me pull the pin on Belkar and toss him in her sleeping bag.

Kish
2006-12-29, 01:23 AM
her sleeping bag.
Remember, she doesn't sleep.

Thexare Blademoon
2006-12-29, 01:32 AM
In my opinion, it basically comes down to two facts.

1: The OotS are the protagonists

2: Miko does not like, is more powerful than, and is mean to the protagonists.

Small problem there.

Xykon - for an obvious example - does not like, is more powerful than, and has outright tried to kill the protagonists, which kinda trumps being "mean". And he's a hell of a lot more popular than Miko. Now, I'm sure someone would say "but he's funnier" in response - and now we're getting to an actual problem people have with Miko as a character, rather than just indirectly insulting the people that dislike her. Some just do not find her very entertaining, quite possibly due to dealing with stick-in-ass paladins before and having bad memories of it. As a person, TinSoldier's second paragraph covered it nicely. I will not deny that people like her exist, and I've hated spending any time within fifty feet of those people.

While the comparison to Roy is somewhat sound, consider the amount of time they're seen.. In almost every comic Miko's been in with the Order, she seems to have trouble with the concept that they're human(oid) judging from how she treats them. Now, in Belkar's case I'm gonna call that entirely justified, but for the others? No. Roy has been judgemental in the past (no specific examples come to mind), and he hasn't always been the nicest person around (abandoning Elan in the bandit camp), but we've seen him more, and those issues don't come up as proportionally often.

theKOT
2006-12-29, 01:35 AM
From a narrative standpoint, she's a great character.

But I'd choke her if I had to deal with her for real. The sharp rocks a pillows, the preaching, ordering the OotS around without learning their names, that would make me pull the pin on Belkar and toss him in her sleeping bag.
Sharp rocks as pillows.... She only suggested it. She even payed for their rooms. She never actively forced them to adhere to her moral code, she simply told them what was the right thing to do. What is she supposed to do, sit by and watch (in her opinion) misguided fools barreling towards inevitable doom? Or warn them of their fate, and tell them how to avoid it. Yeah, she 's preachy, abrasive, assuming, and a bit too devoted to duty; Still, she was only looking out for their wellfare.

Of course now she is almost insane(Giant's words), so you could say a lot of things about post-trial Miko. But you must agree that she is certainly more pitiable than deplorable, in that case. Her intentions, at their core, are noble. I know, the road to hell and all that, but that doesn't detract from the condolence the situation elicits.

Demented
2006-12-29, 01:49 AM
Remember, she doesn't sleep.

Vaarsuvius doesn't sleep either, and Belkar still managed to get a jar of hornets on its head. Miko has to spend an hour meditating or praying in order to regain spells, during which, at very least, you could eke in a surprise round.

Ampersand
2006-12-29, 02:01 AM
Small problem there.

Xykon - for an obvious example - does not like, is more powerful than, and has outright tried to kill the protagonists, which kinda trumps being "mean". And he's a hell of a lot more popular than Miko.

Fine, you got me there. :smallsmile: So I'll add a third reason: Miko is an authority figure who makes the protagonists follow the rules, even if they don't agree with said rules.

Part of the whole adventurer psyche is that they are outside and above any sort of rules that lesser mortals (read: NPCs) should enact. Even the Lawful ones. It's understandable, really...we're bound by rules and regulations practically every minute of our lives, so part of the escapism that fantasy roleplay provides is the ability to transcend socialtal norms. After all, the sort of behavior that our characters undertake in any given session would get us tossed in jail (or the loony bin) if we tried it in real life...


Now, I'm sure someone would say "but he's funnier" in response - and now we're getting to an actual problem people have with Miko as a character, rather than just indirectly insulting the people that dislike her.

I did not mean any insult, and I apologize if it came off that way.


While the comparison to Roy is somewhat sound, consider the amount of time they're seen.. In almost every comic Miko's been in with the Order, she seems to have trouble with the concept that they're human(oid) judging from how she treats them.

I just flipped through my copy of Paladin Blues and up until the "Drag us there in chains" speech I don't really see Miko being all that insulting towards the OotS, other than calling Vaasurivious "Elf." She's a bit stiff and overly formal, yes, but nothing that I'd find insulting. This changes after comic 250, of course, but the string of insults and threats Roy and the rest of the Order toss at her in that comic would shift almost anyone towards the "Bad Cop" end of the spectrum.



Roy has been judgemental in the past (no specific examples come to mind), and he hasn't always been the nicest person around (abandoning Elan in the bandit camp), but we've seen him more, and those issues don't come up as proportionally often.

I list quite a few in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27798&page=2) :smallsmile:

tgva8889
2006-12-29, 02:10 AM
I personally dislike Miko because she's cold, heartless, and completely devoted to destroying the Order. Xykon is not. Don't try to say he is. He's devouted to finding the gates and doing whatever evil plan he's planning on. He just has to deal with OotS because of an oath of vengance that Roy's father made. And Xykon technically tried to kill OotS in self-defense: Miko just jumped on them and attempted to kill them for only the reason that she detected evil. Not the same thing.

Granted, Miko is one who causes hilarity during the story. Xykon's jokes are better in my opinion, but Miko makes for great comedy. I don't really hate her. I just don't really like her, either.

Brickwall
2006-12-29, 02:24 AM
Miko's mean. Very mean. Extreme personalities beget extreme reactions.

The_Old_Fox
2006-12-29, 02:28 AM
My two coppers:

I think that a lot of people who hate :miko: with a passion have other deep seated issues with:

1) authority figures and people telling them what to do
2) people who think they are “The Good Guys”
3) all the cool rich kids
4) and to some degree society in general

After all, authority figures are usually rich/popular/”cool” people who think that they know what is best for everyone else and they govern and enforce society. If you have problems with the world/society you are going to have problems with those who govern it and uphold it. Paladins, IMO, are the best example of the status quo and are armed enforces of the “good of society”. :miko: , as an antagonist and abrasive version of this type of character really raises the ire of these people.

(not sure what that was worth, it is late and I am tired) :smallwink:

Tabiani
2006-12-29, 02:35 AM
First, I rather like Miko. She's annoying, she has a big stick up her backside, and she is very opposed to our heros. But still, I find her antics amusing and the strip is better for her presence. She won me over in 214 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0214.html) & 215 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html) with the total send-up of the "Lawful Stupid" ethic my first gaming group was so stuck on.

What I see here a lot is that people can't accept that a character can be "Hateful-Good" or "Evil-Cute" and want to force characters like Miko, Belkar, and Thog out of the alignments they have followed into some fallen-pally or evil-but-misunderstood mold. Not all, to be sure, but I see it fairly often.

Bor the Barbarian Monk
2006-12-29, 02:55 AM
Wannabe Writer Theater Presents: Free Your Mind


We join our characters backstage, preparing for their next comic...

:roy: Oy vey.

:durkon: Wha is it now, lad?

:roy: Another Miko thread.

:durkon: Ye aren't gonna wig out agin, are ye?

:roy: No. Just going to do my best to ignore it.

:elan: Ignore what?

:durkon: Another Miko thread.

:haley: ANOTHER one?!?

:vaarsuvius: Wait. Don't tell me. They're trying to figure out what that thing in the dark is again.

:haley: No. Miko.

:belkar: No Miko? She's dead?!

:elan: No. We're talking about the fact that they're talking about why people hate Miko so much.

:thog: ooh! thog know!

:roy: You guys don't have to talk in character. We're backstage.

:thog: (cultured English accent) Oh. Right. Terribly sorry about that. Might I take the oppotunity to explain this conundrum?

:belkar: (Brooklyn accent) Hey, whuddevuh you wanna do.

:thog: *ahem* Miko represents an extreme in character alignment. As a Paladin, she must be lawful and good. Her lawful nature is represented in her obeying the law to the letter. Her "good" side is her relentless pursuit and destruction of evil.

:miko: Hiya, guys. What's goin' on?

:roy: Thog is explaining why people don't like you.

:miko: Was he doing it "Thog-esque-like"?

:haley: He started to, but Roy reminded him about backstage abilities.

:elan: He'd make a great bard, though, getting into character like that so often.

:thog: Pray tell, might I continue?

:durkon: Please?

:thog: Thank you. As I was saying, she is an extreme. There are many definitions of the word "good," and it is the connotated meaning of "nice" that people tend to think of first. Miko, as a character, does that which is right by law and proper by circumstance. Lawfully and "goodfully," as it were. These aspects, however, do not mean she has to be nice.

:miko: But I AM nice. People just need to get to know me. If one more OotS fan comes at me shouting, "SMITE BITCH!", I'm gonna...Ummm...

:roy: Defend yourself?

:miko: Probably. It's becoming a lifestyle.

:haley: Oh! You know what this is like?

:elan: A soap opera.

:haley: Exactly!

:elan: I was joking.

:haley: I'm not. I'm not into soaps or anything, but I had a friend who was. She went to a book signing at some bookstore and met some of the actors from her favorite soap opera. One of the villains from the show was there, and he was all nice and charming, and my friend couldn't believe it! The actor laughed because he realized her reaction was because the only way people knew "him" was through the show.

:thog: Indeed. It's not until you get pulled over for driving while intoxicated by a Jewish officer that your TRUE character comes out.

:roy: Do NOT get me started!

:elan: Or adopt an orphan that isn't an orphan?

:roy: ELAN!

:haley: That reminds me. Brit says she's going to let her second child, "Oops," drive.



No shooting the author. He has too much fun with these! :smallwink:

Nevrmore
2006-12-29, 03:10 AM
I don't think Miko should be excluded from the comic because she definately adds some worthwhile conflict. I'm not saying that Rich made a mistake when making her, because it was his every intent to make Miko so overbearing, dominating, and close-minded, and it just happened to rub a lot of people the wrong way because most people dislike characters who are overbearing, dominating, and close-minded. I think Rich intended her to be reviled as much as she is.

Azukar
2006-12-29, 03:21 AM
Bor the Barbarian Monk's Thog said it best: Miko is the worst incarnation of a Lawful Good character you can imagine. Self-righteousness to the max, not to mention good ol' righteous fury. Actually, from what I've read she's more like Lawful Neutral, in that she doesn't seem to much care about Good, only the Law side of things...

lady_arrogance
2006-12-29, 03:21 AM
Also many people here have played in groups with paladins more similar to Miko than not and they may have had bad play experiences because of it.


I'm kind of Miko-hater my self. And this sounds pretty familiar. In our group is one person, who's always playing paladin almost identical to Miko. With all the bad attitude towards other characters and so on. (Very great person in real life, but those 'Mikos' sucks.)

Funniest thing, I've never thought, that my playing experiences could influence to which comic character I like or don't like...:smalleek:

Azukar
2006-12-29, 03:24 AM
By that I mean, the most I know of D&D comes from OotS and what I've read on the online SRD, but Miko does seem more like the "Judge" character than the "Crusader". Check the comparison offered by SRD:

Lawful Good:
A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

Lawful Neutral:
A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government.

I think DM needs to inform Miko's player that her alignment has changed.

Captain van der Decken
2006-12-29, 03:47 AM
Wait, where did Miko fail to fulfil the requirements for LG?

Tokiko Mima
2006-12-29, 03:47 AM
People find Miko unsymapathetic. Redcloaks soliloquy to her touched on a point about Miko that she ignored but I think is totally valid; she so extreme in her values that she often isn't human.

What I mean by this is that she has a devotion to Order, Justice and Law that seperates her and in her mind places her above the rest of humanity. She rarely feels anything for any other character, and feels entitled to lecture to them when they make mistakes. She's not just cold, she's emotionally absent in a lot of ways.

All of the other characters in OotS you can relate to. Xylon and Nale may be evil, twisted and sadistic, but you can see them experience real joy and feeling, and the reader can connect to that in a low and brutal way. But Miko? You can't do that because she isn't there: all she is is a heartless enforcer of virtues that she doesn't truly understand but defends to the death anyway. She's very much like a construct.

Demented
2006-12-29, 04:22 AM
Wait, where did Miko fail to fulfil the requirements for LG?
That's a good question.



Fine, you got me there. :smallsmile: So I'll add a third reason: Miko is an authority figure who makes the protagonists follow the rules, even if they don't agree with said rules.
Ooh, ooh! What about Eugene and Shojo? =D

They aren't protagonists, so much as walking, talking plothooks.
Everything else they fit to a tee.
Roy would be one of them as well, if he wasn't a protagonist.

Lazy Fat Man
2006-12-29, 04:40 AM
My guess is that people who don't like Miko, or think that she is evil/neutral, are people who are chaotic in alignment. Being chaotic, they think it's wrong to be judgemental or boss people around and tell them what to do. But that is part of being lawful. Lawful characters not only follow orders, but they expect others to follow them as well.

In summary, the chaotic readers see Miko's bossyness as "wrong" and equate it with "evil". Which, in terms of DnD alignment, are two completely different things.

That, or they just don't like bossy people(I know I don't).

Grim Oswald
2006-12-29, 06:01 AM
I don't really have a problem with Miko, but if I did, it would be that she's lawful good and nothing else. By that I mean she has no real personality, just an obsessive over-zealous lust to follow the description of the alignment to the letter.

Coffee_Dragon
2006-12-29, 06:39 AM
Woo, Miko thread! I've said it before: all threads should be Miko threads.


See, someone is going to respond to this with a mostly factual statement that contains some glaring opinionated falsehoods

I see a few so far.

Demented
2006-12-29, 06:47 AM
If it's only a few, they should hardly be worth contemplating.
Unless they're exceedingly high-quality and well written, then I can understand.

The Glitter Ninja
2006-12-29, 06:50 AM
I think that a lot of people who hate :miko: with a passion have other deep seated issues with:

1)authority figures and people telling them what to do
2)people who think they are “The Good Guys”
3)all the cool rich kids
4)and to some degree society in generalThere's nothing like a lot of personal attacks by Internet Psychologists to really get the ol' debate going, is there?

I believe a lot of the animosity toward the character is brought about by the forum discussions. Honestly, I suspect most people who don't participate in the forums don't have such extreme opinions about her.

If someone doesn't like Miko, even if they calmly explain why, there's always a handful of people who get personally offended by their dislike of the character. Defenders of Miko's character often say that the reasons listed are wrong: the person simply doesn't understand Miko, or there's a good explanation for why Miko is abrasive and it's stupid to dislike her for that character trait.

They often launch ad hominem attacks (like the one I quoted above) on the posters' character. Claiming that people who don't care for the Miko character are anti-social is a sure-fire way to get people defensive and riled up. So now people who were on the fence about the Miko issue jump in, and defend the side they relate to most, hence all the people who "hate" or "love" Miko.

Xiander
2006-12-29, 07:21 AM
Miko is rude, overbearing, selfrighteous, bossy and narrowminded. She is by no means nice and if i were to discripe her in three words, they would all be sencored...
That said i still like her, not as a person, but as a character. She has very few redeeming abilities, but she does have a positive effect on the comic: She is plotcritical, that much is for certain, and she brings forward the best and worst in the main characters. This is for me by far enough to make her apearance in the comic welcome.
As to why people hates her enough to want to see her die a gruesome death, i believe i mentioned a lot of unpleasant words that aplies to her, and to make it even worse, she is proud of them, it is not hard to see why people dislike her, but it seems that people forget that without her we would have missed some downright hilarious moments. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html
That being my personal favorite. Also because it shows that Miko is not just a selfrighteous smiting..... woman.

Ampersand
2006-12-29, 11:36 AM
And Xykon technically tried to kill OotS in self-defense: Miko just jumped on them and attempted to kill them for only the reason that she detected evil. Not the same thing.

Actually, Miko attempted to kill the OotS because she was empowered by Shojo to do so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) should it prove necessary (he doesn't explicity state it, and in 290 we see that he also gave Miko the "and try to take them alive if reasonably practical" order, but the act of charging her with the mission empowers her with the authority to carry it out as she deems necessary within the constraints of the laws of the Sapphire Guard and the rules of a Lawful Good alignment), spent a great deal of time gathering information (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0174.html) on the OotS and their character (getting them confused with the Linear Guild along the way, but that's understandable with the information she was given), and even gives them the opportunity to surrender (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) despite the fact that Roy detected as being strongly evil as a result of wearing Xykon's crown. Miko did do her homework before attacking the OotS.


Wannabe Writer Theater Presents: Free Your Mind

I have to agree with Thog... "Good" does not equal "Nice". :smallsmile: Last I checked the alignment descriptions, there was nothing in there about Good characters having to spend their off days reading to the elderly and petting puppies.

I actually think that Haley is very similar to Miko, in that at times they both skirt the edges between a Good and Neutral alignment. In Haley's case, of course, the issue comes not from self-rightious zealotry, but from her extreme greed and the ease by which she is controlled and manipulated by money ( good examples of which occurs here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0205.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0243.html) ) The difference? Haley is both a protagonist and is nice to the other protagonists, and thus her moral failings are overlooked, whereas people say that Miko should have Fallen for complaining about the mattress tag being removed.

Blood
2006-12-29, 11:56 AM
I understand a little more now. Miko's character is fine, but people don't like her as a person, and are annoyed by her overall attitude towards the protagonists while still managing to barely be Lawful Good. At least, that was the gist of what I understood.

Now I can back up - I don't think she toes the line of Lawful Good at all. Although the definition for Lawful Neutral better fits her, as she thinks in the law sense more than anything else, she believes she is also fighting for good. She fights for her gods, who are explicitly good, and she believes that she is contributing not only to the law, but to the greater good of Azure City, and fighting for Shojo and her gods. You don't have to be kind to be Good or Lawful, although many are. She does seem to be aggressive, yet she has only ever attacked someone if they attacked her first.

I agree with what has been said otherwise. As a character, it is interesting to see how the OotS interact with Miko, because of her personality that so contrasts how the OotS think. Roy is Good because he believes in loyalty to his friends, which usually trumps his Lawful actions. Miko, however, will follow the will of her gods no matter the cost. As a person, Miko is very annoying, and I agree that having a paladin like Miko in the party could make anyone angry. And obviously, some of you have had a paladin like her in your party, which brings back memories of annoying games and frustrated players. I still believe that Miko isn't that bad of a character, however, which is really what this discussion is supposed to be about - yes, she is a badly played paladin and a mean person, but I want to discuss Miko in the comic more than "Miko's attitude sucks!"

Aldebaran
2006-12-29, 11:56 AM
Firs of all, let me say this: people, Miko is no real living person .You cannot hate her(nor should you) She is just a comic protagonist, there for your entertainment.Now, on topic :smallsmile:

I also dont like her quite much, I find her Lawful goodnes just...boring and iritating...I mean,Xykon is one piece of evil bastard, but he´s got STYLE.And his words make me laugh all the time.
Miko is sure a well written characer, but not really a funny one- the only funny moments were when she got insulted,or hit

Im not saying she is dull or something, I just dont like her style myself. Its all about that- what is and whats not appealing to you. Therefore, I guess all the Miko pros and cons threads are pointless.
Make peace, not war,yo!:smallbiggrin:

Coffee_Dragon
2006-12-29, 12:04 PM
I believe a lot of the animosity toward the character is brought about by the forum discussions. Honestly, I suspect most people who don't participate in the forums don't have such extreme opinions about her.

This is almost certainly true. My opinion of a webcomic usually drops a little if I visit its forum, but in this case it's also given me a deeper appreciation for Miko than I could otherwise have hoped to achieve. :smallsmile:


If someone doesn't like Miko, even if they calmly explain why, there's always a handful of people who get personally offended by their dislike of the character. Defenders of Miko's character often say that the reasons listed are wrong: the person simply doesn't understand Miko, or there's a good explanation for why Miko is abrasive and it's stupid to dislike her for that character trait.

Perceptions vary. Having followed quite a number of these threads, I can testify that countless times reasons presented for disliking Miko have been verifiably false or nonsensical. Certainly it happens that people also argue vehemently against matters of opinion (which is a way of expressing their opinion), but for every time I've seen a pro-Mikoer actually flame an anti-Mikoer, I've seen dozens of these:

X: Miko is evil! She makes people sleep on rocks!

Y: She actually doesn't. However, Belkar murders people.

X: It's only a comic!!

And probably a fair number of these as well:

X: Miko is pompous, dry and calculating.

Y: So is Roy.

X: Yes, but he's one of the main characters.

Y: :smalleek:

eilandesq
2006-12-29, 12:21 PM
I'm not the biggest Miko fan in the world, but I concluded that Miko hatred had jumped the shark when I started seeing posts that insisted that Miko should lose her paladinhood for *planning* to hit the MitD hard during the "see who can touch the other one the softest" game--that's not having issues with her: that constitutes lifetime subscriptions.

EthanAlshire
2006-12-29, 12:28 PM
Small problem there.

Xykon - for an obvious example - does not like, is more powerful than, and has outright tried to kill the protagonists, which kinda trumps being "mean".

I think the only answer to that it "that's his job." It's expected that Xykon, as a villain, will be mean. But a paladin, a 'noble', 'good' character, should be expected to be less abrasive than Miko is.

Mawhrin Skel
2006-12-29, 12:40 PM
I actually think that Haley is very similar to Miko, in that at times they both skirt the edges between a Good and Neutral alignment. In Haley's case, of course, the issue comes not from self-rightious zealotry, but from her extreme greed and the ease by which she is controlled and manipulated by money
Haley wants money at least in part so that she can pay her father's ransom, a fact she has hidden from her colleagues. She exaggerates her greed to hide this "ulterior" motive.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html

In other words, I don't think you're being fair to Haley.

Shadic
2006-12-29, 12:43 PM
People have said that Miko shows no real personal emotion, but that is not the case. For example, in Comic 250 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html), she says to Roy that should would accept a date with him now, even though technically he is a prisoner at the time.

Aside from that, Roy had it right in his speech to her. "Overbearing self-righteous bitch." would be a great way to describe her, along with the fact that she follows LG to the letter, but has never shown "Concern for the dignity of sentient beings."

That would be why people dislike Miko. I think she's a good character, and I don't hate her. I may have been voting for Redcloak in their fight, but he's one of my favorite characters.

Smada
2006-12-29, 01:06 PM
My main beef with Miko is this. She is completely phsycho and uses her faith and paladinship to hate the OOTS with all of her guts and keep persuing thier deaths because she personaly feels they are still guilty of doing whatever it was that they did to make her arrest them. Her personal views come first, then she tailors her alignment and class to suit them. Because she is in fact crazy.

She refuses to see that anyone could actually be innocent, and when someone is, she starts to twist absolutely everything that happens into 'its thier fault now i can kill them when I couldn't before' mentality. Even with the evil lich and his army of hobgoblins coming to Azure City to claim the gate, it is the OOTS's fault. She refuses to see any kind of evidence to the contrary of what she thinks. And if someone whom she actualy respects says differently she will just accept it, convincing herself that she is right, and will find evidence to prove it later.

I dont play to much 3.5, as i am a rabid hackmaster player. Hackmaster is a stand alone game that uses many of the rules of 2nd ed and alot of extra ones. Hackmaster is meant to stay light and cheery just like the OOTS is. It is a great system and the thing i love the most about it is a potion called Potion of Attitude Adjustment. What this thing does is teleports you to a trial of you by the gawds. All of them are there. They judge your alignment finding any and all infractions, change your alignment to what you are acting like (which incurs a penalty of one level anytime you change your alignment in hackmaster), strips you nekkid and beats you to within an inch of your life. After all the gawds are busy, and do not wish to be trivialized with your trial. After they kick you a new one they return you to where you drank the potion 1 round afterwards nekkid bruised to hell one level lower wondering what happened to you.

I want nothing more then to force feed Miko one of these pots and laugh with glee as she comes back a LN fighter with no bonus feats.

Thexare Blademoon
2006-12-29, 01:10 PM
Fine, you got me there. :smallsmile: So I'll add a third reason: Miko is an authority figure who makes the protagonists follow the rules, even if they don't agree with said rules.

Part of the whole adventurer psyche is that they are outside and above any sort of rules that lesser mortals (read: NPCs) should enact. Even the Lawful ones. It's understandable, really...we're bound by rules and regulations practically every minute of our lives, so part of the escapism that fantasy roleplay provides is the ability to transcend socialtal norms. After all, the sort of behavior that our characters undertake in any given session would get us tossed in jail (or the loony bin) if we tried it in real life...Now we're getting somewhere. Though that doesn't quite hold true for me, I can see that affecting some people.




I did not mean any insult, and I apologize if it came off that way.I may have exaggerated for the purpose of making my point. Or just been unable to come up with a better world. We'll never know. :smalltongue:




I just flipped through my copy of Paladin Blues and up until the "Drag us there in chains" speech I don't really see Miko being all that insulting towards the OotS, other than calling Vaasurivious "Elf." She's a bit stiff and overly formal, yes, but nothing that I'd find insulting. This changes after comic 250, of course, but the string of insults and threats Roy and the rest of the Order toss at her in that comic would shift almost anyone towards the "Bad Cop" end of the spectrum.Well, I wasn't exactly referring to insults. More of her general attitude, the kind that I could see myself having towards a couple of goblins that attacked me. Again, maybe a slight exaggeration there (I'm good at that), but you get the idea.





I list quite a few in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27798&page=2) :smallsmile:My point was that whether he's done that more times than Miko or not, he's been in many more comics, so it seems like a smaller percentage of the time - basically, whether he's actually done it more or not, it seems like it happens less.

(I'm not quite a fan of Roy either, though, so don't take this as me defending my favorite character.)



In summary, the chaotic readers see Miko's bossyness as "wrong" and equate it with "evil". Which, in terms of DnD alignment, are two completely different things.Given how many teenagers there probably are here, that makes sense! :smallbiggrin: Seriously though, since you mentioned this in your post, as overzealous as she can be, I don't see her falling all the way to Evil yet. Neutral, I can forsee in her future (she does seem to be getting close to that now), but I don't expect her to go any further than LN.

Amon Star
2006-12-29, 01:12 PM
My main beef with Miko is this. She is completely phsycho and uses her faith and paladinship to hate the OOTS with all of her guts and keep persuing thier deaths because she personaly feels they are still guilty of doing whatever it was that they did to make her arrest them. Her personal views come first, then she tailors her alignment and class to suit them. Because she is in fact crazy.

She refuses to see that anyone could actually be innocent, and when someone is, she starts to twist absolutely everything that happens into 'its thier fault now i can kill them when I couldn't before' mentality. Even with the evil lich and his army of hobgoblins coming to Azure City to claim the gate, it is the OOTS's fault. She refuses to see any kind of evidence to the contrary of what she thinks. And if someone whom she actualy respects says differently she will just accept it, convincing herself that she is right, and will find evidence to prove it later.

I dont play to much 3.5, as i am a rabid hackmaster player. Hackmaster is a stand alone game that uses many of the rules of 2nd ed and alot of extra ones. Hackmaster is meant to stay light and cheery just like the OOTS is. It is a great system and the thing i love the most about it is a potion called Potion of Attitude Adjustment. What this thing does is teleports you to a trial of you by the gawds. All of them are there. They judge your alignment finding any and all infractions, change your alignment to what you are acting like (which incurs a penalty of one level anytime you change your alignment in hackmaster), strips you nekkid and beats you to within an inch of your life. After all the gawds are busy, and do not wish to be trivialized with your trial. After they kick you a new one they return you to where you drank the potion 1 round afterwards nekkid bruised to hell one level lower wondering what happened to you.

I want nothing more then to force feed Miko one of these pots and laugh with glee as she comes back a LN fighter with no bonus feats.

I liked the :miko: being naked part. :wink:

vbushido
2006-12-29, 01:52 PM
I would have called Miko's player right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html) for an alignment violation and removed her paladin abilities. The fact that Miko knew it could have been avoided by her own actions, but didn't follow that course of action is neither lawful nor good. The father, especially, since he was low-level and could have easily been grappled or disarmed and was merely angry about his daughter's death, not acting maliciously. What alternate action would have been acceptable to me? Tying them back up and dragging them to the local guardpost or druid's grove. Heck, tying them back up and leaving them there would have been acceptable. Better yet, do the Gather Info or Diplomacy check and move on, never untying them (detect evil). Paladins receive diplomacy as a class skill for a reason. And their own codes and hierarchy do not put them above the laws of the lands they visit.

-----
You don't need to have a cat to be a writer. You can bat your own pencils around.

Thexare Blademoon
2006-12-29, 01:57 PM
Though I am loathe to defend her, perhaps she didn't think of that until AFTER she killed those two in self-defense. True, she perhaps could have simply disabled them, but they attacked first - though it is preferred that a paladin disable his enemy, I wouldn't punish him for killing in self-defense.

Edit: On closer inspection, she didn't give the man a chance to attack. She still had plenty of reason to expect him to, all considered... that'd earn a warning, but not much more.

Amon Star
2006-12-29, 01:57 PM
I would have called Miko's player right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html) for an alignment violation and removed her paladin abilities. The fact that Miko knew it could have been avoided by her own actions, but didn't follow that course of action is neither lawful nor good. The father, especially, since he was low-level and could have easily been grappled or disarmed and was merely angry about his daughter's death, not acting maliciously. What alternate action would have been acceptable to me? Tying them back up and dragging them to the local guardpost or druid's grove. Heck, tying them back up and leaving them there would have been acceptable. Better yet, do the Gather Info or Diplomacy check and move on, never untying them (detect evil). Paladins receive diplomacy as a class skill for a reason. And their own codes and hierarchy do not put them above the laws of the lands they visit.

-----
You don't need to have a cat to be a writer. You can bat your own pencils around.

Technically, she wasn't a Paladin at that point, just a Mysterious Cloaked Figure. :tongue:

However, they were both evil, so killing them isn't a violation. Thinking about working with them is another matter.

One last thing. He was not low level. He took on :roy: in melee and won.

Mapmaker
2006-12-29, 02:31 PM
Miko reads to me more like Lawful Neutral than Lawful Good. She strikes me as being much more focused on the Lawful aspect of her alignment than the Good part, and I think she would be inclined to follow the laws of her Lord and land even if they weren't "good" laws.

AngryGreek
2006-12-29, 03:02 PM
Dear Giant,

I have been a very good boy all year. I've worked very hard to stay off the naughty list (well, there have been a couple incidents, but we won't count those against me).

This year I only want one thing for Xmess. I would like you to kill Miko off in the most violently horrific way imaginable.

Thank you, and please say hi to the Elves and Mrs. Giant for me.

AngryGreek

vbushido
2006-12-29, 03:03 PM
Technically, she wasn't a Paladin at that point, just a Mysterious Cloaked Figure. :tongue:

However, they were both evil, so killing them isn't a violation. Thinking about working with them is another matter.

One last thing. He was not low level. He took on :roy: in melee and won.

You're right. I forgot about that. I sit corrected.

I still have reservations on the "They were evil, so I was justified" argument. I prefer when we (as players) execute people after they've done something evil, not because they detect as evil. However, an evil accountant might embezzle millions, but does that mean we should run him through with a sword? :smallbiggrin:

-----
So many books, so little time/money/shelf space

Alfryd
2006-12-29, 03:14 PM
*sigh*
My inner Barbarian longs to bask in the glorious warmth of verbal carnage, but I have not the opportunity of leisure.
Patience, my pet. All in time.


...an evil accountant might embezzle millions, but does that mean we should run him through with a sword?
I'm reminded of the scene in Pratchett's Going Postal where the custodial golem informs the protagonist that his acts of fraud have killed, probabilistically, 4.3 people, or words to that effect. When banks lose money it is rarely bank managers who starve.

Shadow of the Sun
2006-12-29, 03:53 PM
Miko is one of the best constructed villains I have ever seen. Most of the others were written by Pratchett. Anyway, Miko is an incredible work of literary genius. She is an LG character, no matter what you say, and yet she still is an overall better villain than most in this comic, or anywhere. Why is she such a good villain? Because she is realistic. Most of the people that the world categorizes as villains were not "evil" (history is written by the winners. Evil is a relative term that generally means that "I won, therefore I am the good guy, and he must have been the evil one." Look where narrative causality has got us) in the sense that, say, Belkar is. We call them that, but read what I put in the brackets to understand why. The archetypal "evil villain" we use, Adolf Hitler, was doing what he thought was for the best of Germany. Evidently it wasn't the best in any sense of the word, but he had meant well until a flaw in his reasoning had him invading Russia and gassing people. Miko is much the same. She acts with good intentions, but has a flaw in her reasoning that makes her an antagonist. This flaw for her is her belief in the fact that she can act like Judge Dredd- she believes she can judge a person without any background knowledge of the situation and then act upon that judgement. That is why she is a good villain- she is realistic and strangely enough, human. Not many people that we call evil were just random indiscriminate psychopaths- normally they had a reason that caused them to act like that, and in quite a few cases, it was good intentions.

Blood
2006-12-29, 04:24 PM
I would have called Miko's player right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html) for an alignment violation and removed her paladin abilities. The fact that Miko knew it could have been avoided by her own actions, but didn't follow that course of action is neither lawful nor good.
First, she didn't realize her mistake until after they were dead. Should she have lost her paladin abilities for simply making a small mistake - for fighting in self-defense? They both attacked her before she attacked them, and Samantha was evil (and her father may have been too).


Edit: On closer inspection, she didn't give the man a chance to attack. She still had plenty of reason to expect him to, all considered... that'd earn a warning, but not much more.
Yes, he did attack. Inspect closely and you'll see that:

He drew his swords
He made it clear in his dialogue that he would be hostile
He swung at her with one sword, though it is hard to see
One last thing. He was not low level. He took on :roy: in melee and won.
He did get very lucky (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0167.html).


Miko reads to me more like Lawful Neutral than Lawful Good. She strikes me as being much more focused on the Lawful aspect of her alignment than the Good part, and I think she would be inclined to follow the laws of her Lord and land even if they weren't "good" laws.
As I have said, she believes she is working for the greater Good by following the laws and working for her gods and for Shojo.


This year I only want one thing for Xmess. I would like you to kill Miko off in the most violently horrific way imaginable.
Please, keep the thread to discussing Miko's qualities or lack thereof; not simply to flame her.


*sigh*
My inner Barbarian longs to bask in the glorious warmth of verbal carnage, but I have not the opportunity of leisure.
Patience, my pet. All in time.
You're welcome to. If you can't get them to stop hating Miko, maybe you can confuse them with articulation. :smallwink:

Shadow of the Sun, I agree with your statements - Miko is indeed a brilliant character in the fact that she can be Lawful Good and be an antagonist.

fangthane
2006-12-29, 04:28 PM
Let's get one thing out of the way first, and make it absolutely clear. I loathe Miko's character. Absolutely hate her without reservation. However, I'd be the first one complaining if the Giant were to trivialise her death or fall or whatever he's got planned for her.

The reason is because I know, unlike so many others, precisely why I hate her so much. It's because she's absolutely beautifully developed. She follows the stereotype of the "bad paladin" to the letter. She prejudges, she's convinced of her own infallibility, she's got the One True Angle on goodness, she's got the standard-issue adamantine bar up her hoop. And every time we see her, one of those traits causes someone to cry "She's evil! She should fall!" despite knowing that ultimately most are based on perspective. I've seen people say she should fall just for attempting to Smite Roy. Umm, what? No.

I've seen people claiming that she's evil because of other things she's done, that she's not properly lawful, and so forth. But ultimately, until she takes a voluntary evil action, she's OK in that regard. I've played paladins like her, I've played alongside paladins like her, and I've played (and played with) more moderate paladins and while one like her is a major PITA for the party and for the DM, it's legitimate to play her the way she's been portrayed and retain - however tenuous - the LG alignment necessary to paladinhood. From her perspective, she's doing the right things and in the right ways. Until and unless she's either incorrect enough of the time to trigger an alignment shift (per the Giant's estimation) or actually perpetrates an evil act despite her best intentions, she's not going to Fall.

I suppose in a sense, it might be more correct to say I love to hate her; she's a well-developed but wholly unsympathetic (in my view) character and I'd like to hope that her eventual demise/fall will be as interesting as her character development thus far.

Blood - tough to tell whether the Woosh came before the Skthutch, but I tend to agree that Sam and her Dad asked for it.

TinSoldier
2006-12-29, 04:29 PM
Please, keep the thread to discussing Miko's qualities or lack thereof; not simply to flame her.Hmm. I didn't think it was a thread to either praise or flame Miko (plenty of that elsewhere...) but rather why she evokes such strong feelings in the readers.

Or at least I thought that was your purpose.

Blood
2006-12-29, 04:43 PM
Hmm. I didn't think it was a thread to either praise or flame Miko (plenty of that elsewhere...) but rather why she evokes such strong feelings in the readers.

Or at least I thought that was your purpose.
That was my purpose, until I figured out why people hate her. And now that I do, I am wholly willing to start debating. Debating her qualities, or debating why people hate her, or heck, debating anything about Miko. It is called "The Miko Controversy," after all. What I don't want is posts that simply say "I wish Miko were dead."

Kish
2006-12-29, 04:47 PM
Samantha was evil (and her father may have been too).
"I spent time making sure that at least Samantha was unequivicably Evil, so that her death at the hands of the paladin didn't call Miko's alignment into question once it was revealed. Her father wasn't much better; at best he was Neutral with some Evil tendencies."
--Rich Burlew, No Cure for the Paladin Blues, between strips 174 and 174a

TigerHunter
2006-12-29, 05:02 PM
Fangthane, I believe, said it right. To summarise his statement:
:roy: Sure, you fight Evil, but when was the last time you showed 'concern for the dignity of sentient beings'? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html)
:redcloak: You're immune to the fear that you might be wrong. Immune to the fear of becoming tyrants. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0372.html)

At the risk of violating the 'no politics' rule, Miko is the epitome of the right wing. She thinks she knows what's best, and never questions it.

fire_hawk
2006-12-29, 05:15 PM
Miko is Lawful Good, but she sees good as for the good of all humanity. She sees no reason to be good (e.g. nice, generous, understanding) to the Order of the Stick, as it is not vital to her cause. While it is admirable that she is so devoted to her cause, if she displayed some of the personality traits, that, say, Hinjo has (who said Paladins can't be nice?), then everybody would like her fine.

It's not because she's not funny, or because she is Lawful Good, or because she's a paladin - there are many people like that. The funny thing depends on the person - some people may think no-one in the comic strip is funny. Roy's Lawful Good. Not many people hate him. Hinjo's a paladin and MOST people like him. No, it's because she doesn't respect the Order, and won't even smile at them.

MReav
2006-12-29, 05:18 PM
I like Miko not despite the fact that she's an arrogant, holier-than-thou, crusading paladin bitch, but because of it. I long for fictional antagonistic authority figures that are not cookie cutter villains, grossly inept, obviously corrupt, or some combination thereof. They're not the kind of people that the author has to go back and practically write "I'm sorry if you thought there might have been a chance these might be good guys. I must clarify in the most painfully obvious manner possible". I especially like that in the grand scheme of things, the Sapphire Guard are the good guys.

I especially don't want her to die or Fall, since I really want to see Miko vs Sabine in an evil opposites fight, preferably centered in a Transmute Rock to Mud spell, with only a Monk's Belt and Bracers of Armor being the only article of clothes between them.

theKOT
2006-12-29, 05:21 PM
Miko is Lawful Good, but she sees good as for the good of all humanity. She sees no reason to be good (e.g. nice, generous, understanding) to the Order of the Stick, as it is not vital to her cause. While it is admirable that she is so devoted to her cause, if she displayed some of the personality traits, that, say, Hinjo has (who said Paladins can't be nice?), then everybody would like her fine.

It's not because she's not funny, or because she is Lawful Good, or because she's a paladin - there are many people like that. The funny thing depends on the person - some people may think no-one in the comic strip is funny. Roy's Lawful Good. Not many people hate him. Hinjo's a paladin and MOST people like him. No, it's because she doesn't respect the Order, and won't even smile at them.
Not generous? She paid for their rooms (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0225.html).
Not understanding? She accepted the "evil twin" excuse (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html)
Won't smile at the Order? She did. Once. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html) Then she was told How horrible she was. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html)

Ampersand
2006-12-29, 05:38 PM
I'm not the biggest Miko fan in the world, but I concluded that Miko hatred had jumped the shark when I started seeing posts that insisted that Miko should lose her paladinhood for *planning* to hit the MitD hard during the "see who can touch the other one the softest" game--that's not having issues with her: that constitutes lifetime subscriptions.

You may have a cookie for that wonderful turn of phrase. :smallsmile:


Haley wants money at least in part so that she can pay her father's ransom, a fact she has hidden from her colleagues. She exaggerates her greed to hide this "ulterior" motive

Yes...my point was more about the fact that Haley was willing to rob her friends and abandon them to trial and possible execution, and was ultimately swayed to stay with them because Durkon pointed out she would get a free trip to Azure City if she stayed with the OotS. Not to mention the fact that she rushed into the burning inn to save the treasure, with no thought that there might even have been bystanders trapped inside until Miko brought it up. And, of course, the hysterial aphasia. All of these point to Haley skirting the "Good" component of her alignment in a manner strikingly similar to Miko.


"Overbearing self-righteous bitch." would be a great way to describe her, along with the fact that she follows LG to the letter, but has never shown "Concern for the dignity of sentient beings."

I disagree, and I think that the most poignant example of Miko's concern for the dignity of sentient beings was her treatment of the OotS prior to 250. She allowed her prisoners (who outnumbered her six to one and comprised an effective fighting force) to keep their weapons, armor, and magic items, and move about freely, despite the fact that at least half of them (Belkar, V, Haley) were openly hostile towards her, when indeed by the letter of the law she would have been perfectly justified in stripping them, clapping them in irons, and dragging them behind Windstriker all the way to Azure City as soon as she captured them.


Well, I wasn't exactly referring to insults. More of her general attitude, the kind that I could see myself having towards a couple of goblins that attacked me. Again, maybe a slight exaggeration there (I'm good at that), but you get the idea.

Yep. :smallsmile: To be fair, though, from Miko's POV she probably wasn't doing anything wrong. The OotS were her prisoners, and not only that but she was being extremely lenient with them. In fact, I think that's where her outburst in 265 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html) comes from: she had gone easy on the OotS and fraternized with them (because really, it's a lot easier to transport them that way) and pretty much got it thrown back in her face. I honestly think that, had Roy not given that little speech of his in 250, while Miko probably still would have asked Hinjo to stop being overly friendly with the OotS, it probably would have been phrased as a request for proper decorum while in the halls of the Sapphire Guard instead of a bitchy order. The post-250 Miko is a lot more acidic than the pre-250 Miko, and the OotS have no one to blame for that but themselves.

I largely agree with Shadow of the Sun and Fangthane: Miko is compelling because, while she does skirt the edge of her alignment at times, she is a paladin, she is Lawful Good, and yet she's very clearly an antagonist to the (mostly) Good-aligned party...and she's the antagonist is a completely believable manner.

MReav, I'm interested in buying tickets to that match. Do you accept electrum?

Shadic
2006-12-29, 05:58 PM
I disagree, and I think that the most poignant example of Miko's concern for the dignity of sentient beings was her treatment of the OotS prior to 250. She allowed her prisoners (who outnumbered her six to one and comprised an effective fighting force) to keep their weapons, armor, and magic items, and move about freely, despite the fact that at least half of them (Belkar, V, Haley) were openly hostile towards her, when indeed by the letter of the law she would have been perfectly justified in stripping them, clapping them in irons, and dragging them behind Windstriker all the way to Azure City as soon as she captured them.

However, look at her treatment of Roy in Comic 200 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), which does not really lead to being sympathetic. Roy willing surrendered and wants to talk, but she still goes and smites evil on him.

Besides, Miko knew that both Roy and Durkon were willing to go with her at that point in which she didn't cuff and chain them.

Mika
2006-12-29, 06:02 PM
To put it simply: Miko is not very nice. She may be innocent of what most of them are talking about, but I believe her character was invented to be despised.

TinSoldier
2006-12-29, 06:10 PM
Besides, Miko knew that both Roy and Durkon were willing to go with her at that point in which she didn't cuff and chain them.I would argue that point-- no evidence. Just because we see them saying, "Wait, what?" doesn't mean it registered on Miko.

After all that she believed the OotS was accused of (by mistaking many of the antics of the Linear Guild) she believed she was right to smite Roy at that point. Especially since it was the heat of battle.

Shadic
2006-12-29, 06:15 PM
It may have been in the heat of battle, but the final blow that she tried to land would have been much more force than was necessary. Roy was the final person that was able to fight, and he tried to surrender. Evil Roy or not, Miko was told to try and bring them back alive if possible. At that point in time, it was very well possible to stop fighting then and there, but she tried to kill him regardless.

theKOT
2006-12-29, 06:20 PM
It may have been in the heat of battle, but the final blow that she tried to land would have been much more force than was necessary. Roy was the final person that was able to fight, and he tried to surrender. Evil Roy or not, Miko was told to try and bring them back alive if possible. At that point in time, it was very well possible to stop fighting then and there, but she tried to kill him regardless.
Haley was still up, Vaarsuvius may have gotten a spell off at any point, and it would have only killed Roy if he was evil. A solo agent like Miko needs to kill for the sake of her mission. If she goes down, the mission will fail. Seeing as the fate of the multiverse could very well be hinged on that battle(given her information) her priority was to succeed.

TinSoldier
2006-12-29, 06:22 PM
I was just thinking of all of the movies I've seen where the BBEG is defeated and surrenders waiting until the good guy has his guard down and then attempts to strike, usually ending up being killed himself by the good guy or one of his friends.

Since Miko detected the crown as being a strong source of evil (and not knowing it was the crown and not Roy) I still don't really hold it against her.

Plus, since she didn't kill him, she was able to see her mistake at the time.

Of course she now believes she was correct all along...

I still love her though.

theKOT
2006-12-29, 06:26 PM
Of course she now believes she was correct all along...

I still love her though.
She is almost insane now.... faulty reasoning seems foolproof to her... and she was never very good at discerning anyway.

Tiako
2006-12-29, 06:27 PM
I happen to like Miko, because I like Paladins, skilled fighters, and characters who can be good without being rebels. I was rooting for her against Belkar.

However, I do think that the Giant forced her into the cliche of the self righteous character.

Demented
2006-12-29, 06:53 PM
If Miko didn't have at least one flaw, she'd seem out of place in Oots.

Roy is self-aggrandizing.
Haley is self-indulgent.
Vaarsuvius is self-involved.
Belkar is self-... he's just evil.
Durkon is dendrophobic.
Last but not lea... er.... oh right, Elan.

The entire linear guild is evil, and mostly incompetent.
The NPCs are either evil or incompetent or ineffectual or some combination thereof.

Miko just so happens to have the compassion of a sour candy and an attitude problem.

What's not to love?

The_Old_Fox
2006-12-29, 07:00 PM
There's nothing like a lot of personal attacks by Internet Psychologists to really get the ol' debate going, is there?

I believe a lot of the animosity toward the character is brought about by the forum discussions. Honestly, I suspect most people who don't participate in the forums don't have such extreme opinions about her.

If someone doesn't like Miko, even if they calmly explain why, there's always a handful of people who get personally offended by their dislike of the character. Defenders of Miko's character often say that the reasons listed are wrong: the person simply doesn't understand Miko, or there's a good explanation for why Miko is abrasive and it's stupid to dislike her for that character trait.

They often launch ad hominem attacks (like the one I quoted above) on the posters' character. Claiming that people who don't care for the Miko character are anti-social is a sure-fire way to get people defensive and riled up. So now people who were on the fence about the Miko issue jump in, and defend the side they relate to most, hence all the people who "hate" or "love" Miko.


Funny thing is, I actually DONT like :miko: at all myself

War
2006-12-29, 07:10 PM
Good isn't the same thing as nice... that about sums her up. More, being on the same side as someone doesn't guarantee that you'll like each other, a subject which is dealt with a lot more on the evil side than the good. It's more irritating than not getting along with the other side because it seems like you should be able to. And it's always frustrating when you have to try to work with someone you don't work with.

So, as people have said, :miko: works well as a character, but isn't so fun as a person. Personally, I'm all in favor of that.

I think another part of why this gets such a range of reactions is that different folks have different ways of reading (or otherwise being an audience). At one end are people who analyze the writing and appreciate it for its artistry; at the other, ones who throw themselves into the story emotionally. Of course most of us do some of both, but the closer you are to the latter, the more unlikable characters grate on you personally. On the plus side, hating along with the heroes is part of the fun of that approach, hopefully!

Oh, and I'd say Miko qualifies as good, as she follows the ideal of goodness to the best of her ability. It's just that she doesn't actually understand it as well as she thinks she does -- or maybe she knows the ideal, but doesn't have a way to apply it to real life. I think she sees that everyone falls short of perfection, and interprets that to mean the world is pretty much corrupt. She also expects the corruption to resist righteousness and herself to be attacked for championing it. She more or less gets what she expects every time, so trying to change her mind only further convinces her that she's right.

fangthane
2006-12-29, 07:54 PM
Hmm, War's post made me realise something else.

Miko is very much like the Santa robot from Futurama. The difference is that the robot's already Fallen (and appears to be a blackguard), but she hasn't.

Shadow of the Sun
2006-12-29, 08:04 PM
Miko appears to think "This is the way things SHOULD be. How do I make them so?" while Roy appears to think "This is the way things are, how do I change them for the better?" That was based off of one of the most profound things I have ever read by Terry Pratchett, and it makes sense. Miko is an idealist, and when her ideals are disappointed, for a lack of a better word, she tries to change the world to suit them. Which is not a very easy, or indeed sane thing to do. Starting with an ending and working back is almost impossible- that would be like seeing a cake, and with no knowledge or ability, trying to make an exact replica. It just doesn't work.

Blood
2006-12-29, 08:41 PM
However, I do think that the Giant forced her into the cliche of the self righteous character.
The Giant made her a cliched character on purpose. He thought that people would better empathize with the comic if it had the typical stick-up-the-ass paladin. Unfortunately, this actually made some people angry, since they empathized too much and got angry at her character instead of her as a person. :smallwink:

Yes, as has been said, Miko is a very unlikeable person. As a character, I think she's great. Their aren't too many Lawful Good paladin antagonists.

Miko is Lawful and Good, no matter how much proof people put out to say she isn't. Yes, yes, she is mean, but she is still Good. She is a tad violent, but she never attacked anyone unless they were Evil or had attacked her first. She believes that by working for the Sapphire Guard and Shojo, and by so obsessively worshipping her gods, she is working for the Law and for the greater Good.

I feel so repetitive.

Mr.Burn
2006-12-29, 08:57 PM
My reasons for Hating Miko:

Her attitude just stinks, everything in her eyes has to be Black and White, and since its her eyes than it must be that way. Any form of logical pointing out that she could be wrong about how the world goes, is instantly reeducated from her mind, and she starts assuming the person is Evil. and also AS Redcloack said She's completely immune to the thought that she could be wrong. And yes I have a issue people who think they are “The Good Guys”
because Like Miko in 90% of the times they use there alignment to explain there Logic-less, or just wrong actions (( see Kore from “Goblins” Comic)), and by all Gods of any from and kind nothing can piss me off more than a Person that walks in and starts moving every one about in to corners just cause she thinks she is right and since she thinks so it has to be that way fully 100% with no "maybes”.

But as q target of Sick jokes, and humor reasons: she’s perfect ( nothing like a sight of a ******* getting his beatings))

Good enought?

TinSoldier
2006-12-29, 09:02 PM
See, I think the Giant may have tried to make a paladin character as described in his article (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html). I don't think he succeeded.

While many people reacted to her as the paladin described in the article, many others, like me, still see her as less odious than the situation that he described. Or at least disagreed with some of his basic tenets as written in the article.

Not that I don't think that a paladin could be played as a total ass. Of course one can. I just don't think Miko fits that description myself. I know a lot of people see her as unsympathetic but I do not. I have a lot of sympathy for her.

Of course, a lot of that probably comes from the negativity in the forums. However every time I go back and read Paladin Blues or the strips where she appears I see her in a better and better light.

I see her more as a tragic character with flaws that she doesn't recognize within herself.

Contextually, we love heroes with her traits when they are the protagonists. Since she is an antagonist many have the opposite feeling for her.

Mr.Burn
2006-12-29, 09:12 PM
I must say I gave a lot of Pointers there Tin, but still I wouldn't want to deal with Atitude like Miko's. True maybe it isn't compleatly her foult that, she is what she is, but as I said I gave pointers on why I Hate Miko's ATITUDE, and all of them base on becouse of how she ackts. Miko no mater hoe tragic and wrongly raised, still will be a asshat to a random person that dosn't know her, and I would moste certinly not wnat to get to know a person that is a imbread bastard.

TinSoldier
2006-12-29, 09:14 PM
Heh. I was writing that before you posted, Mr. Burn :smallbiggrin: .

I was mostly responding to Blood.

fangthane
2006-12-29, 09:28 PM
Tin - there's also the fact that when we're presented with an obvious antagonist with those traits, we've the expectation that those traits will cause further conflict with the protagonists as the story progresses (as indeed they have). On the other hand, a protagonist with those traits would be expected to mellow, to be portrayed as more sympathetic as time progressed rather than less.

In a way, the nature of her presence in the OotS strip drives those expectations simply because we're used to seeing protagonists grow, evolve and (begin to) overcome their character traits through the course of the storyline - and we're used to seeing antagonists' traits cause their downfall. In Miko's case, our anticipation is of strife and conflict and that, admittedly, colours our perceptions of her flaws in the here-and-now. Well, the there-and-then, anyhow. ;)

TinSoldier
2006-12-29, 09:31 PM
Fangthane: I agree. Nice post.

That probably explains why so many want her to either die or fall.

vbushido
2006-12-29, 10:45 PM
First, she didn't realize her mistake until after they were dead. Should she have lost her paladin abilities for simply making a small mistake - for fighting in self-defense? They both attacked her before she attacked them, and Samantha was evil (and her father may have been too).


Yes, he did attack. Inspect closely and you'll see that:
He drew his swords
He made it clear in his dialogue that he would be hostile
He swung at her with one sword, though it is hard to see

I don't think the statement was one of regret, but we can't see her face to tell if there was any emotion behind it. She could have been saying it the same way Xykon would. I doubt she was bemused, but the fact she thought of it afterward doesn't excuse her for killing two people. Samantha threatened her, but a character with enoug monk levels to make Reflex saves to evade Fireballs and lightening and enough paladin levels to shrug off a Hold Person shouldn't feel too threatened. Where's the Tanglefoot bag she used on Varsuuvius? The celestial mount that neutralized Belkar? Striking to subdue? She kills both of them in one stroke apiece. It looked more like a Belkaresque move for easy XP than seeing justice done. The one thing she needed for her mission, information, she didn't get.

I know few paladin players who don't automatically Detect Evil on everyone they meet. If she had done so, would she have asked their assistance still, just asked for information and moved on, or slaughtered them while they were tied up? Why didn't she just do the Gather Info while they were tied up? The fact that her initial desire upon hearing her marching orders was to destroy the Order, rather than arrest them doesn't sound too lawful, either. Before the Smite Evil panel, I thought she was a Chaotic Neutral ronin assassin.

I do think you sum up your argument nicely but I'm not quite convinced yet.

-----
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup

theKOT
2006-12-29, 10:59 PM
I don't think the statement was one of regret, but we can't see her face to tell if there was any emotion behind it. She could have been saying it the same way Xykon would. I doubt she was bemused, but the fact she thought of it afterward doesn't excuse her for killing two people. Samantha threatened her, but a character with enoug monk levels to make Reflex saves to evade Fireballs and lightening and enough paladin levels to shrug off a Hold Person shouldn't feel too threatened. Where's the Tanglefoot bag she used on Varsuuvius? The celestial mount that neutralized Belkar? Striking to subdue? She kills both of them in one stroke apiece. It looked more like a Belkaresque move for easy XP than seeing justice done. The one thing she needed for her mission, information, she didn't get.

I know few paladin players who don't automatically Detect Evil on everyone they meet. If she had done so, would she have asked their assistance still, just asked for information and moved on, or slaughtered them while they were tied up? Why didn't she just do the Gather Info while they were tied up? The fact that her initial desire upon hearing her marching orders was to destroy the Order, rather than arrest them doesn't sound too lawful, either. Before the Smite Evil panel, I thought she was a Chaotic Neutral ronin assassin.

I do think you sum up your argument nicely but I'm not quite convinced yet.

-----
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup

According to the Giant, she thought the perpetrator was some demon. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=929083#post929083)
There ya go.

TinSoldier
2006-12-29, 11:05 PM
theKOT, you are my hero.

I bow down to your Giant-fu.

the_tick_rules
2006-12-29, 11:07 PM
Well Miko certainly has good intentions. But she's a bit too assurred of her own infallability. she's a bit to confident she's always right. Plus a bit too hung up on the smiting aspect of good, but roy already covered that part.

Demented
2006-12-29, 11:23 PM
The sentence is "some clearly evil force like a giant demon or something". That doesn't mean she believes there's a demon, but rather that the party is exceedingly evil and likely as dangerous.
:elan: As evil and dangerous as a giant demon!
:roy: Elan. Shut. Up.

By the time she meets Samantha and Co., she's absolutely certain that she's not looking for a giant demon. Though, I'll relish the thought that she might think it's an evil outsider when Shojo tells her, simply because Shojo seems the type to "forget" to mention such important details. If she kills them all (for a perfectly good reason, most likely, since she's the most overzealous paladin he has), he can just as easily banish Eugene and hire up some mercenaries to do the job instead.

There's a perfectly viable justification for Miko killing the two bandit leaders, but it certainly requires a few more sentences than that. Maybe it's in that FRC thread you made.

That particular strip gives me a headache, though. I'd just as easily put it up to a hastily written script. (No offense Rich!)

Tomada
2006-12-29, 11:25 PM
blah blah blah...

The reason?

She is more Lawful than good.

In fact, it weights so heavilly to lawful that she is (arguably) not good on several occasions. She is almost tripping on the line that divides good from evil or neutralitty on the premise of being lawful.

SPoD
2006-12-29, 11:41 PM
That particular strip gives me a headache, though. I'd just as easily put it up to a hastily written script. (No offense Rich!)

I would say that it was more important for Rich to trick the readers than it was to spell out a 100% Lawful Good by-the-book situation. If he had made Miko say and do the best possible paladin behavior, it would have spoiled the fact that she was a paladin and not an assassin. So he skirted the edge of it in order to fool us. Not every scene with a paladin needs to be the pinnacle of paladin behavior, it just needs to not be an Evil act. (Hell, it can even be a Chaotic act, as long as Chaotic acts are not frequent enough to cause an alignment shift to Neutral Good. Paladins don't lose their powers for one Chaotic act.)

Come on, people. The dialogue was obviously written to be intentionally vague! Rich was attempting to feint us, and at the time, it worked perfectly. Anyone remember how many people were outraged by that strip? It was a dramatic ploy on the author's part, and that's it.

Why everyone continues to get so worked up about this more than a year later is completely beyond me.

Thexare Blademoon
2006-12-30, 01:19 AM
The fact that her initial desire upon hearing her marching orders was to destroy the Order, rather than arrest them doesn't sound too lawful, either.
Hold a sec.

I can see it not sounding good, but it strikes me as being excessively lawful - it would appear that she is so focused on order that anyone who goes against it earns death. That's a Lawful extreme.


Where's the Tanglefoot bag she used on Varsuuvius?I think you answered that one yourself - she used it on Vaarsuvius. There was no indication that she'd carry more than one.


Samantha threatened her, but a character with enoug monk levels to make Reflex saves to evade Fireballs and lightening and enough paladin levels to shrug off a Hold Person shouldn't feel too threatened.So, if I was to charge at you with a Vorpal Butter Knife, fully intending to kill you with it... you should just sit there and not fight back? I roll that 20 and I roll your head off. You gonna take that chance, knowing that 95% of the time you'd be safe?

Because that's basically what this equates to.


By the gods, I'm actually defending her. :smallannoyed:

Alair
2006-12-30, 01:23 AM
Didn't Miko go back into the burning inn to look for anyone who needed help? That seems a pretty decent action to me.

Someone said something about Miko not seeming to have any compassion for the other party members, and I think I would agree. Miko does good deeds, not so much because she cares deeply about her fellow humanoids as because she sees it as her duty to do so. She's a samurai and it's part of a samurai's duty to protect those weaker than herself.

And if she seems lacking in feeling... well, give her a break. She was orphaned, raised in a monastery, and became a paladin when she left the monastery. The phrase "cloistered life" comes to mind.

TinSoldier
2006-12-30, 01:23 AM
blah blah blah...

The reason?

She is more Lawful than good.

In fact, it weights so heavilly to lawful that she is (arguably) not good on several occasions. She is almost tripping on the line that divides good from evil or neutralitty on the premise of being lawful.Evidence on the "several occasions"? Well, I'll admit that she is more Lawful than Good, I don't see her that close to the Good-Neutral line, much less very near the Neutral-Evil line.

Oh, and SPoD--Nice.

theKOT
2006-12-30, 01:27 AM
The sentence is "some clearly evil force like a giant demon or something". That doesn't mean she believes there's a demon, but rather that the party is exceedingly evil and likely as dangerous.
:elan: As evil and dangerous as a giant demon!
:roy: Elan. Shut. Up.

By the time she meets Samantha and Co., she's absolutely certain that she's not looking for a giant demon. Though, I'll relish the thought that she might think it's an evil outsider when Shojo tells her, simply because Shojo seems the type to "forget" to mention such important details. If she kills them all (for a perfectly good reason, most likely, since she's the most overzealous paladin he has), he can just as easily banish Eugene and hire up some mercenaries to do the job instead.


What does that have to do with what I said? The poster I replied to had said


The fact that her initial desire upon hearing her marching orders was to destroy the Order, rather than arrest them doesn't sound too lawful, either. Before the Smite Evil panel, I thought she was a Chaotic Neutral ronin assassin.
My point was that when she recieved her marching orders she thought it was a demon or clearly evil force she was after, not a group of people. I didn't read the rest of it. Also, don't confuse me with Alfryd. HE made the FRC. And yes, it does have an explanation for why Miko did what she did.

C: Miko attacked Samantha and Pa, shortly after the bandits' bisbanditry, completely without provocation or justification. She should lose paladin status at once, and have her toenails drawn out with pliers.
Tied Up Nicely (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=189)

R: Observe closely during this strip. You will note that Sam first enunciates, quite clearly, "you'll serve me or you'll die!"; before casting Hold Person. This is generally a strong sign of hostility.
Having dispatched Sam, Miko then reiterates her request for assistance to Pa seperately, to demonstrate peaceful intent. Pa then draws twin swords to demonstrate the exact opposite.
In both cases, Miko's reaction was a straightforward case of self-defence, and quite justifiable.
There are two criticisms you could level at Miko- first, Sam appears to be injured, and it might be reasoned that full lethal force would be excessive in taking her down.
Secondly- it is rather unreasonable to expect a father to be entirely rational after seeing his daughter skewered before his eyes.
In both cases, however, Miko has quite limited options for resolving the dispute. She cannot afford to risk even one successful spell being cast by Samantha, or she might be killed or compelled to do the bidding of an evil mistress. And it is highly unlikely that she could talk Pa down by any means in the aftermath. Her hand was more or less forced.







Why everyone continues to get so worked up about this more than a year later is completely beyond me.
Several reasons.
1. It is probably the most interesting, highly debatable topic to ever come up in OOTS. Debating is fun(to some) and this is the best thing to debate in the comic.
2. Miko evokes strong emotional reactions from anyone who reads the strips about her. This leads to those emotions spilling onto the board.
3. The wording in the original post elicits visceral responses from those who dislike Miko, and this leads to illogical arguements which starts the ol' back and forth.

TinSoldier
2006-12-30, 01:32 AM
3. The wording in the original post elicits visceral responses from those who dislike Miko, and this leads to illogical arguements which starts the ol' back and forth.Up to a point, I've found most of the responses in this thread (pro and con) to be quite reasonable. With some exceptions.

I know it won't last, but...

(Oh, and I would add that reactions from those who dislike Miko occasionally elicit visceral responses from those who do like Miko which can lead to illogical arguments...)

theKOT
2006-12-30, 01:40 AM
I never said anything contrary to what you just posted. I said SOME illogical arguments. I also never said Pro-Mikons didn't respond in kind. In fact, so far this thread features more Pro-Miko statements that are innacurate than it does Anti-Miko statements of a similar sort.

Demented
2006-12-30, 01:50 AM
This argument is pretty much the only one left that can be argued. Everyone's pretty clear now that Belkar is Chaotic Evil. :smallamused:

Not to mention, I don't think the Miko controversy has managed to settle. Most arguments stick around until a certain level of finality is reached, just from common opinion tiring of it, if nothing else.

----
To the meat!

"What does that have to do with what I said?" -theKOT
The second paragraph in my post, sans the first sentence (which didn't really belong in that paragraph anyway) is what had to do with what you said, which, given you quoted the entire post, seemed to be a reply to the entire post, or at least that one part, in a way that somehow related to the rest of the post.

Everything else was just setting the stage.

Sorry about the FRC mix-up. I mix people up when they don't have avatars.

P.S.
A good point by SPoD. He gets a cookie!

Amon Star
2006-12-30, 09:41 AM
Here's another example of :miko: not being psychotic pre-250.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0246.html

All :vaarsuvius: got for her comments was a slightly dirty look. Well, she got :miko:'s normal look, but you get the point.


I still have reservations on the "They were evil, so I was justified" argument. I prefer when we (as players) execute people after they've done something evil, not because they detect as evil. However, an evil accountant might embezzle millions, but does that mean we should run him through with a sword? :smallbiggrin:

-----
So many books, so little time/money/shelf space

I agree, but that is a flaw in the alignment system if anything. Therefore, you can't hold it against :miko:.


He did get very lucky (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0167.html).

He got lucky because it was a rhino, that's true. But he still deflected the projectile first. That took skill.


I especially don't want her to die or Fall, since I really want to see Miko vs Sabine in an evil opposites fight, preferably centered in a Transmute Rock to Mud spell, with only a Monk's Belt and Bracers of Armor being the only article of clothes between them.

Seconded!


Not generous? She paid for their rooms (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0225.html).

Though I'm Pro-:miko:, I have to say that that was more a case of her doing her duty than actual generousity.


She is almost insane now....

And we all know who's to blame there... :belkar:

Tiako
2006-12-30, 11:27 AM
One thing I'm not so clear on is why the Order was so hostile to her pre-250. For example, when V states that she feels no sorrow as her death, only mild amusement. When you look at the history of their encounters, Miko really hadn't done anything to earn that venom, but the Order had been more or less continuously goading her.

Thexare Blademoon
2006-12-30, 01:17 PM
For example, when V states that she feels no sorrow as her death, only mild amusement. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0221.html (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0221.html)

Fourth panel. V explains itself rather clearly there. I'm not saying the elf is justified, just that he/she/it had his/her/its reasons for the hostility.

theKOT
2006-12-30, 01:51 PM
Though I'm Pro-:miko:, I have to say that that was more a case of her doing her duty than actual generousity.
Somewhat true, although it wasn't really her duty. She could have made them pay for themselves, but she payed to avoid a confrontation. I don't see how there is much evidence about her lacking generousity though. Where does she act selfishly? Meh.


Fourth panel. V explains itself rather clearly there. I'm not saying the elf is justified, just that he/she/it had his/her/its reasons for the hostility.
Yeah, V has so much pride if it rained, ze would drown. Cause zer nose would be turned up so much...... Haha?

Not a member of the Miko fan club. Still will argue with you about her... but I'll argue with almost anyone about almost anything.:smallamused:
Aw c'mon Thexare. You know are free-for-members saturday buffet will win you over eventually, so why stall?

Blood
2006-12-30, 02:20 PM
I know few paladin players who don't automatically Detect Evil on everyone they meet. If she had done so, would she have asked their assistance still, just asked for information and moved on, or slaughtered them while they were tied up? Why didn't she just do the Gather Info while they were tied up? The fact that her initial desire upon hearing her marching orders was to destroy the Order, rather than arrest them doesn't sound too lawful, either.
Why would she attempt a Gather Information check while they were tied up? Before they showed any hostility toward Miko, they mentioned that they were enemies of the Order of the Stick. At that point, Miko believes that they are her allies. So she unties them, and then they turn all hostile. She therefore acts in self-defense.

The fact that she could have made a Gather Information check while they were tied up still stands, and she even said so herself, but she believed them to be allies and did, actually, a nice act by untying them.

He got lucky because it was a rhino, that's true. But he still deflected the projectile first. That took skill.
Or a good roll.

Tiako
2006-12-30, 02:23 PM
Aw c'mon Thexare. You know are free-for-members saturday buffet will win you over eventually, so why stall?
I have to ask, how many people are in the Miko fan club?

theKOT
2006-12-30, 02:34 PM
I have to ask, how many people are in the Miko fan club?
I don't count, because registration isn't required. You just follow the steps in my sig and viola! You are a member! I see people all the time with the MFC in their sigs who I had never previously interacted with.

ArmorArmadillo
2006-12-30, 02:59 PM
I hate Miko.

She is a great character.

We're meant to hate Miko, if you don't you're not appreciating Rich Burlew's motives for creating her.

Read his writings on playing in his Gaming section and he reveals a huge flaw he found in the way Lawful Good characters are played: They feel the need to dictate the morality of the entire party, not just themselves.

She is a parody on the stereotype of the Palaidn, an uptight jerk who hides behind moral status, and the rigid definitions of alignment, as though they make them better than everyone else.

neriana
2006-12-30, 04:27 PM
I just don't think Miko fits that description myself. I know a lot of people see her as unsympathetic but I do not. I have a lot of sympathy for her.

I see her more as a tragic character with flaws that she doesn't recognize within herself.


I do too. I don't think she's all that tragic, though, because I think it's very possible she could grow as a person.

There's one more reason people hate Miko so much. She's a woman who is not nice. There are other women who aren't nice in the comic: Samantha and Sabine. But they're blatantly evil, so they don't confuse people. Then there's Hilgya, who is nice but not good. Miko does put a cause above all else, and putting a cause above relationships is completely verboten for women in our society.

Note that other characters continually call her "frigid". That is a very specific sexual insult against a woman -- how the heck would they know, and why the heck would they care? She's not nice and soft and accomodating, the way a "good woman" is supposed to be. That's why I like her.

TinSoldier
2006-12-30, 05:07 PM
I hate Miko.

She is a great character.

We're meant to hate Miko, if you don't you're not appreciating Rich Burlew's motives for creating her.

Read his writings on playing in his Gaming section and he reveals a huge flaw he found in the way Lawful Good characters are played: They feel the need to dictate the morality of the entire party, not just themselves.

She is a parody on the stereotype of the Palaidn, an uptight jerk who hides behind moral status, and the rigid definitions of alignment, as though they make them better than everyone else.I disagree that I'm not appreciating his reasons for creating her and I also disagree that expecting others to hold high standards, or expressing disappointment when they do not, is necessarily a bad thing.


I do too. I don't think she's all that tragic, though, because I think it's very possible she could grow as a person.

There's one more reason people hate Miko so much. She's a woman who is not nice. There are other women who aren't nice in the comic: Samantha and Sabine. But they're blatantly evil, so they don't confuse people. Then there's Hilgya, who is nice but not good. Miko does put a cause above all else, and putting a cause above relationships is completely verboten for women in our society.

Note that other characters continually call her "frigid". That is a very specific sexual insult against a woman -- how the heck would they know, and why the heck would they care? She's not nice and soft and accomodating, the way a "good woman" is supposed to be. That's why I like her.Ding! Give that poster a prize!

PaladinFreak
2006-12-30, 06:52 PM
One thing I'm not so clear on is why the Order was so hostile to her pre-250. For example, when V states that she feels no sorrow as her death, only mild amusement. When you look at the history of their encounters, Miko really hadn't done anything to earn that venom, but the Order had been more or less continuously goading her.

Lets see... She attacked them with virtually no provocation, and then took them as prisoners for an unexplained charge.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html

Personally, my first reaction to a person who deos things like that would be negative

Pilum
2006-12-30, 07:40 PM
Well, I've said this once or twice, but what the heck.

What personally does it for me with the whole Miko 'thing' is that I like my paladins. I've always loved the idea of the knight in shining armour - where other kids were running round with spud guns and the like, I had my dad make me a rather good sword and shield out of some old wooden offcuts when I was little. Pendragon remains one of my all time favourites.

And every bad experience I've had as a paladin, I've seen on these boards. The baiting, the holding out a situation and when it occurs, the cry of "ha ha ha, no more class abilities for you, Pilum! Revel in my teen-angst need to make the good guys Fall!" from yet another DM or group (and yes, I've played enough White Wolf games to fit in with this style :smallwink:. I don't always appreciate it with my pallies though).

Now it's not every group, don't me wrong. In our travels through this vale of tears, we meet the good people and we meet the people who need words I'm not allowed to use on this forum. :smallsmile: But quite often the biggest blow-ups I've ever witnessed in D&D, be it in groups, letters pages or BBS, usually involve the falling paladin. And I think that a part of this is because the code is never actually defined. A good thing, every world needs it's mystery, but with the consequences for a character so great I believe it's common courtesy for the DM and player to at least get together and thrash something out.

Right. Miko. I actually side with her - as her DM I would not have had her fall. She is harsh, yes, but at no time does she ever commit Evil, in my view; as has been stated Good (note the capital...) is not 'fluffy'. There is a time and a place for Michael as well as Raphael. Someone's mentioned Discworld; forget Carrot, though he has his place, and reference Vimes and Granny Weatherwax as interesting models for paladins. I don't think anyone would ever describe them as 'nice'.

Just my two penn'orth anyway.

Actually, I think the above proves true what someone posted earlier in the thread; if you enjoy something, be they books, comics or games, NEVER visit the associated forums. Keep the enjoyment pure... :smallwink:

ArmorArmadillo
2006-12-30, 08:07 PM
I disagree that I'm not appreciating his reasons for creating her and I also disagree that expecting others to hold high standards, or expressing disappointment when they do not, is necessarily a bad thing.It's not about having high standards, or devoting yourself to a cause, it's about believing that your code of honor automatically gives you superiority over everyone else.

Miko's mission was to bring the Order of the Stick back for a trial, but her original response was to "surrender to a punishment of death or immediately die." She didn't need to threaten them like that, she could have talked to them, but her immediate impulse is to threaten and coerce others. She feels like she is doing the right thing, and therefore bosses everyone around.

Having a code of honor you follow over relationships is one thing, but Miko instinctively eschews connections and relationships whether doing so is to the mission or not.

Also, the reason people have problems with Paladins in their party is that everyone comes to the table with a character, something they've created and care about, and too many Paladins feel the need to squelch those characters because of their own strict moral code.
This can create good roleplaying opportunities from the character conflicts it creates, but Miko is the picture of an unpleasant character setup: someone who refuses to do anything until everyone conforms exactly to how she wants to do things. This is the way poor roleplayers do Paladins, because it puts them above the other players, and Miko is meant as an example of that.

TinSoldier
2006-12-30, 10:21 PM
It's not about having high standards, or devoting yourself to a cause, it's about believing that your code of honor automatically gives you superiority over everyone else.I agree that Miko's self esteem problems probably manifest themselves that way.


Miko's mission was to bring the Order of the Stick back for a trial, but her original response was to "surrender to a punishment of death or immediately die." She didn't need to threaten them like that, she could have talked to them, but her immediate impulse is to threaten and coerce others. She feels like she is doing the right thing, and therefore bosses everyone around. I agree that she is more bloodthirsty than she needs to be. We saw that in flashback (can't find the comic now--where Shojo tells Miko she doesn't have to "bathe in their blood"). I'm sure it will cause problems for her in the future.


Also, the reason people have problems with Paladins in their party is that everyone comes to the table with a character, something they've created and care about, and too many Paladins feel the need to squelch those characters because of their own strict moral code.I don't disagree with that. It can be annoying.

Then again, it can be annoying playing with players whose characters insist on stealing/killing/torturing others and expect few if any consequences, and who expect their fellow party members to go along with it.

Even though Belkar is my least favorite character, reading him in this strip shows me that not all chaotic evil characters have to be played that way.


This can create good roleplaying opportunities from the character conflicts it creates, but Miko is the picture of an unpleasant character setup: someone who refuses to do anything until everyone conforms exactly to how she wants to do things. This is the way poor roleplayers do Paladins, because it puts them above the other players, and Miko is meant as an example of that.I think you are overstating it. I agree that Miko is meant to be an example of a poorly roleplayed paladin but if so, I don't think that she succeeds. The only real overreactions I've seen were played for humor purposes more than anything else.

Thexare Blademoon
2006-12-30, 10:56 PM
Aw c'mon Thexare. You know are free-for-members saturday buffet will win you over eventually, so why stall?
Does it include pizza?


Then again, it can be annoying playing with players whose characters insist on stealing/killing/torturing others and expect few if any consequences, and who expect their fellow party members to go along with it.

Even though Belkar is my least favorite character, reading him in this strip shows me that not all chaotic evil characters have to be played that way.Aye, though I think one reason people have trouble with CE is that very few people actually are, so they don't really have many examples to go by. Every other alignment has its examples, but the ones CE has aren't nearly as well known. And the ones that are? Terrorists, serial killers... the ones that fit with the stereotype, basically.

That's actually one of the main reasons I have so much difficulty writing for an evil character, and the one time I was mostly successful I had to go for the "fanatic cultist" route (though there was a considerable amount of planning to her fanaticism...)


Sorry about the mildly off-topic remarks.

Diggorian
2006-12-30, 11:02 PM
I like her because she feels like one of my characters . Her background is quite flavorful: monk turned paladin and samurai by social class not player class.

Miko is Lawful Good with a capital Lawful. I like her in that she seems to be Rich's satire of paladins.

TigerHunter
2006-12-30, 11:27 PM
I agree that she is more bloodthirsty than she needs to be. We saw that in flashback (can't find the comic now--where Shojo tells Miko she doesn't have to "bathe in their blood"). I'm sure it will cause problems for her in the future.
Rich said she thought it was a demon or somesuch. Assuming by 'demon' he's referring to an outsider rather than the possessing, non-corporeal type, that means she's being asked to take a creature who's entire PURPOSE in life is Evil prisoner--and she IS slightly trigger-happy. And if he meant the non-corporeal type... well, how DO you take a spirit prisoner?

Kish
2006-12-30, 11:40 PM
Well, I also think she gave Mr. Scruffy's expressed wishes less consideration than she would have if Shojo hadn't filtered them through his "I'm a nut who only relays the commands of his cat" act.

TigerHunter
2006-12-30, 11:45 PM
I have to ask, how many people are in the Miko fan club?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30752

theKOT
2006-12-30, 11:59 PM
Does it include pizza?You're thinking of pizza fridays, held every fourth friday. Course it's BYOBeverage, but we watch movies on a projector in TinSoldier's basement!

TinSoldier
2006-12-31, 01:30 AM
You're thinking of pizza fridays, held every fourth friday. Course it's BYOBeverage, but we watch movies on a projector in TinSoldier's basement!With THX sound!!!

:biggrin:

War
2006-12-31, 02:56 AM
There's one more reason people hate Miko so much. She's a woman who is not nice. There are other women who aren't nice in the comic: Samantha and Sabine. But they're blatantly evil, so they don't confuse people. Then there's Hilgya, who is nice but not good. Miko does put a cause above all else, and putting a cause above relationships is completely verboten for women in our society.

Note that other characters continually call her "frigid". That is a very specific sexual insult against a woman -- how the heck would they know, and why the heck would they care? She's not nice and soft and accomodating, the way a "good woman" is supposed to be. That's why I like her.

That is a very interesting point. Now I'm trying to imagine all this with a male Miko. Still unpleasant and various meanings of antagonistic; I don't think either way excuses the character's flaws, so it'd still be a pretty negative presence. But would it get as many vehement gut reactions, in either direction?

ArmorArmadillo
2006-12-31, 03:06 AM
Note that other characters continually call her "frigid". That is a very specific sexual insult against a woman -- how the heck would they know, and why the heck would they care? She's not nice and soft and accomodating, the way a "good woman" is supposed to be. That's why I like her.Good point.

But, people should note, Miko is not Frigid. She generally ignores Roy's advances, primarily because he's being too forward and a bit of a jerk and objectifying her (this exchange is a clever parody by Rich Burlew on the cliche of Female characters only appearing to be romantic opposites for the heroic males) but when Roy approaches her maturely, she claims that she would be open to a relationship entered on an equal footing.

Ampersand
2006-12-31, 03:13 AM
That is a very interesting point. Now I'm trying to imagine all this with a male Miko. Still unpleasant and various meanings of antagonistic; I don't think either way excuses the character's flaws, so it'd still be a pretty negative presence. But would it get as many vehement gut reactions, in either direction?

No idea, but you don't see many people complaining about the paladin that Roy and Durkon adventured with in Origins. He's arguably a lot worse than Miko ...at the very least he's openly racist and tries to arrange Durkon's death because he's "grumpy and unpleasant."

Granted, he wasn't anywhere near as important to the story as Miko, but still...

Demented
2006-12-31, 03:34 AM
Where was Miko called 'frigid'? I feel helpless browsing through the comics without a search tool. (Accursed poshy document-editing programs.)

----
Characters from Origins are almost never mentioned.
That's probably because nobody wants to ruin the surprise for those who still haven't bought a copy yet. <_<

Coffee_Dragon
2006-12-31, 11:01 AM
You're thinking of pizza fridays, held every fourth friday. Course it's BYOBeverage, but we watch movies on a projector in TinSoldier's basement!

Durn youngsters! I was a Miko fan before it was cool! We had plenty of lichen to eat on pizza Fridays, as it says in the holy scriptures.

Of course, she's gone kinda crazy now, but it's really the backlash of railroad plotting.


That is a very interesting point. Now I'm trying to imagine all this with a male Miko. Still unpleasant and various meanings of antagonistic; I don't think either way excuses the character's flaws, so it'd still be a pretty negative presence. But would it get as many vehement gut reactions, in either direction?

There's this mediocre book called The Darkangel by Meredith Ann Pierce where the male "antagonist" kills a bunch of women, but he's so handsome and emo that the female protagonist decides he must be "saved" at all cost instead of killed as she planned originally. I suppose that's the way those stories go, but I sort of concluded that the book wouldn't have been received the same way with the gender roles reversed. I don't think men who desperately go for murderous, promiscuous women instead of settling down with nice, quiet girls would get credit for being humanitarian as much as being out for some nice succubus booty. So I guess the answer is, um, maybe not?


Where was Miko called 'frigid'? I feel helpless browsing through the comics without a search tool. (Accursed poshy document-editing programs.)

Wouldn't it be nice if Rich decided to go with OhNoRobot? I doubt he will, though.

TigerHunter, your avatar is... suggestive?

Ampersand
2006-12-31, 12:54 PM
Characters from Origins are almost never mentioned.
That's probably because nobody wants to ruin the surprise for those who still haven't bought a copy yet. <_<

Well, it's over a year and a half old now...how long do we have to keep the spoiler tags on? Anyone who reads these forums enough will have likely gotten the majority of the plot from offhand references and allusions. And it's not like there are any huge, plot-dependent revalations in there...

Mawhrin Skel
2006-12-31, 01:02 PM
Where was Miko called 'frigid'? I feel helpless browsing through the comics without a search tool. (Accursed poshy document-editing programs.)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html
Haley calls Miko frigid. In Haleyspeak.

Thexare Blademoon
2006-12-31, 01:17 PM
No idea, but you don't see many people complaining about the paladin that Roy and Durkon adventured with in Origins. He's arguably a lot worse than Miko ...at the very least he's openly racist and tries to arrange Durkon's death because he's "grumpy and unpleasant."

Granted, he wasn't anywhere near as important to the story as Miko, but still...
Not nearly as many people have seen him is probably why. I know I haven't.

Also, re: pizza... sorry, better luck next time. I'll stay out for now.

rellyjean
2006-12-31, 04:15 PM
A few very quick counterarguments:

1) Saying that Miko should have cast Detect Alignment on Sam and her father or done a full information check before approaching and untying them actually misses one of the few times she acted compassionately, in my opinion. I think she was distracted by them being tied up and injured and skipped the usual routine in order to free them.

2) Why everyone still cares more than a year later: for me? It was shocking. We knew that Samantha and her father were evil, but I don't think we'd seen any characters with actual names and stories be killed before.

3) As for what she should or should not have expected from Samantha's father when killing Samantha before his eyes: she didn't know he was her father until after Samantha was dead.

4) I agree that she's more Lawful than Good, but she has shown compassion for other living beings before. Best example of that (to me) would be 368. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0368.html) She explains that she can't stop her mission to help them find food, as it happens to be urgent, but she'll keep her eyes peeled for farmers that she can ask to send rice along.

5) I am very, very intrigued by the idea that the reaction to Miko is partially flavored by her gender. Hmmmm.

ArmorArmadillo
2006-12-31, 04:20 PM
4) I agree that she's more Lawful than Good, but she has shown compassion for other living beings before. Best example of that (to me) would be 368. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0368.html) She explains that she can't stop her mission to help them find food, as it happens to be urgent, but she'll keep her eyes peeled for farmers that she can ask to send rice along.Umm...no. Sorry, but no.

Her interest in the food has nothing to do with compassion, it's a simple matter of logistics: Soldiers need supplies.

Tiako
2006-12-31, 06:39 PM
She didn't need to threaten them like that, she could have talked to them, but her immediate impulse is to threaten and coerce others.
She thought they were demonic. Think about it: saying "Pardon me, but would you mind taking a trip back to Azure City?" probably wouldn't be too effective. And plus, you don't want to spoil an entrance like that.

Demented
2006-12-31, 07:17 PM
Miko did say that. Essentially. Surrender for a reason which may not ever be explained, with a good chance you'll die for it, or die anyway.

When they refused her offer, she didn't wait for Roy to finish his sentence. Even then, he didn't entirely refuse. "And you, buddy, we're not surrendering without a little—"
Chances are, the next word would've been "explanation". Then again, he could've also been leading to "hot, sweaty, monkey love" followed by a surprise attack, but we'll never know.


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html
Haley calls Miko frigid. In Haleyspeak.

Haley, huh?
Well, she DID say she kis...
:miko: Smite Evil Sneak Attack!
Ow! Not good!

Somebloke
2007-01-01, 05:23 AM
You are meant to not like Miho. That's the point of her character. You're meant to love to hate her in the same way that you're meant to love to love hating Major Frank Burns out of M.A.S.H. She's so unlikeable that she's likeable. Personally, the more I see of her the better.

Mike_G
2007-01-01, 09:56 AM
You are meant to not like Miho. That's the point of her character. You're meant to love to hate her in the same way that you're meant to love to love hating Major Frank Burns out of M.A.S.H. She's so unlikeable that she's likeable. Personally, the more I see of her the better.

I agree.

I love to see a Miko strip, since she's a great character, even though I think that as a person she'd be an unbearable pain in the ass, and she triggers my PTSD flashbacks from when my Rogue had to be the voice of compassion in a party with two "Smite 'em all and let St Cuthbert sort 'em out" Paladins.

So, yeah, I hope she survives and appears in many strips, not as a fallen Paladin, but as a pain in the ass Paladin.

But the whole "Why hate the antagonist who beats up, arrests, orders around without the courtesy of learning names, lectures at and swears to 'bathe in the blood of' our heroes. I mean Belkar is EVIL!! HATE HIMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!" makes me shake my head.

We're supposed to hate her. The way we're supposed to hate Nale and Xykon. They are antagonists, and great antagonists, and I love to see them in the strip, but we don't have a freaking "Nale Fan Club."

Get over it, people. We can dislike Good characters. Especially if they are pretty inherently dislikable.

There's a reason Batman is so much more popoluar thet Superman, beyond the dumb blue suit. Moral superiority in a character is like spice. Fine in small, appropriate doses, but unacceptable and overpowering when you dump a pound of it in a cup of soup.

Miko is preatty much a single Chicken Finger in a quart and half of Buffalo Sauce.

Amon Star
2007-01-01, 10:59 AM
Somewhat true, although it wasn't really her duty. She could have made them pay for themselves, but she payed to avoid a confrontation. I don't see how there is much evidence about her lacking generousity though. Where does she act selfishly? Meh.

Sorry, but there's no way :miko: would have done something to avoid a confrontation. That's not her style. And as she was acting as if she owned the party, it was her duty. She would have realised this as soon it was pointed out to her, not that she would have liked it though.


Or a good roll.

True, but he still wasn't low level.

TreesOfDeath
2007-01-01, 11:03 AM
http://shhhh.ytmnd.com/

Ampersand
2007-01-01, 11:36 AM
But the whole "Why hate the antagonist who beats up, arrests, orders around without the courtesy of learning names, lectures at and swears to 'bathe in the blood of' our heroes. I mean Belkar is EVIL!! HATE HIMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!" makes me shake my head.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't care if anyone hates her. I just want to point out that Miko isn't nearly as bad as people make her out to be. For example, your first two points presuppose that the entire multiverse revolves around the OotS and no authority has any right to punish them when they break laws (or, in this case, endanger the fabric of the entire multiverse), the only members of the OotS whose name she didn't learn was V's (as evidenced by the fact that she refers to him/her as capital-e "Elf"; I'll also point out that Celia didn't learn all of their names either, since she refers to Belkar not by name but as "that psychotic halfling"), her lectures were comically mild in light of what promted them (the only major one she gives occurs after the Inn is destroyed, and it's not nearly as bad as it could be), and she never once swears to "bathe in the blood" of the OotS. What she says is that she hopes that she is present when siding with Belkar comes back to bite the OotS in the ass...because, ya'know, just because she's a paladin doesn't mean she loses the ability to speak figuratively or use metaphors (if you don't take my word for it, just read the Giant's commentary for Round 8 of Paladin Blues :smallsmile: )


We're supposed to hate her. The way we're supposed to hate Nale and Xykon. They are antagonists, and great antagonists, and I love to see them in the strip, but we don't have a freaking "Nale Fan Club."

I'm a one-man Nale Fan Club, and Team Evil also has a place in my heart. At this point in the strip, at least, Nale, Miko and Team Evil are just a lot more interesting to me than the protagonists. If nothing else, the "Bad Guys" get at least 90% of the good lines.


Get over it, people. We can dislike Good characters. Especially if they are pretty inherently dislikable.

Again, I have no problem with people disliking Miko. It's the knee jerk "OMG Miko wuz mean to them, she should Fall/die!" stuff that I dislike. Subtle difference, yes, but an important one, I think.

theKOT
2007-01-01, 01:42 PM
Sorry, but there's no way :miko: would have done something to avoid a confrontation. That's not her style. And as she was acting as if she owned the party, it was her duty. She would have realised this as soon it was pointed out to her, not that she would have liked it though.
I suppose, but it was NOT her duty to get them four rooms. She did that to pacify them even though it was not necessary. Still, there is no record of her acting un-generously, so the original criticism is pretty moot.

Amon Star
2007-01-01, 02:12 PM
I suppose, but it was NOT her duty to get them four rooms. She did that to pacify them even though it was not necessary. Still, there is no record of her acting un-generously, so the original criticism is pretty moot.

Ok, I agree that four rooms was the Orders way of taking the piss. Also, I never said that :miko: isn't generous. Others have, but that might be because she doesn't constantly give to charity like a Paladin 'should'.

Demented
2007-01-01, 05:12 PM
The order is composed of naughty peoples!

That said, Haley is the one who came up with the idea for Miko to pay for the rooms—and the safe, and the stables—with what Belkar declared to be the "worst mixed metaphor ever". I'm not sure whether that makes Miko generous or gullible.

Thexare Blademoon
2007-01-01, 07:44 PM
I'm not sure whether that makes Miko generous or gullible.
my guess? Neither.

I'd guess she just wanted to shut everyone up so she could be in peace for a bit.

I mean, after dealing with :elan:, I know I'd want some peace and quiet.

XeroKill
2007-01-01, 10:03 PM
I, for one, don't like her because she embodies the "Holier than thou" attitude of a Paladin so well. I, like many others, have had to deal with Paladins in pen-and-paper campaigns and it is very common for people to go down that path with Paladins. I think she is a great character for the story, but on a more personal note I just find her annoying due to her complete and utter lack of flexibility. She was told that the OoTS guys are breaking the law and as far as she is concerned that is the gospel truth. She requires no burden of proof, just the word of her commander. I can't stand characters that blindly follow the orders of their superiors, and that is what set me against her from the moment I read her first strip.

Ampersand
2007-01-02, 01:44 AM
The problem you get with paladins stems almost entirely from the code of conduct they're expected to follow. Some players just get off on using the code as a mean to coerce their party into doing what they want. And some DMs are just way too overzealous in enforcing it, having the paladins Fall if their apple core rolls out of a hole in the rubbish bin or the party rogue looks down a serving wench's dress. And, of course, one feeds the other: if you DM is a harsh enforcer, the paladin's player is likely to start becoming paranoid and controling in an attempt to preserve their character.

I don't really like Roy, but the one thing he was spot on about was that it's stupid that paladins can Fall based on the actions of others.

Badmofo
2007-01-02, 05:37 AM
Some day soon everyone will come to find out that Miko is just that much better then us. When we do, life will be that much more happier for the internet

Charles Phipps
2007-01-02, 09:58 AM
I actually love Miko and want to see her redeemed.

Probably because I like Japanese girls and Paladins.

;-)

Plus, I enjoy the fact she's so blindingly dense.

(One can appreciate Miko is a religious fanatic and a *itch about regulations without losing one's enjoyment of the character)

Tiako
2007-01-02, 11:32 AM
Miko did say that. Essentially. Surrender for a reason which may not ever be explained, with a good chance you'll die for it, or die anyway.
I meant the politeness.


"And you, buddy, we're not surrendering without a little—"
Chances are, the next word would've been "explanation".
I thought the next word would be "fight" or something, due to the word "surrender".

Kaerbek
2007-01-02, 12:14 PM
OH MY GOD!!! WE'VE CREATED A MONSTER!!! O_O

xD

hahaahahaha, this is sooo funny, go on my children, continue with the discussion, this is going far

Tharj TreeSmiter
2007-01-02, 03:32 PM
I, for one, don't like her because she embodies the "Holier than thou" attitude of a Paladin so well. I, like many others, have had to deal with Paladins in pen-and-paper campaigns and it is very common for people to go down that path with Paladins. I think she is a great character for the story, but on a more personal note I just find her annoying due to her complete and utter lack of flexibility. She was told that the OoTS guys are breaking the law and as far as she is concerned that is the gospel truth. She requires no burden of proof, just the word of her commander. I can't stand characters that blindly follow the orders of their superiors, and that is what set me against her from the moment I read her first strip.


ditto :)..............

zeratul
2007-01-07, 04:23 PM
[QUOTE=Blood;1749106]Why does everyone hate Miko? It is very obvious that most people on the forums have a very negative attitude toward Miko and her general actions. I hate to start yet another thread about Miko, but I need to know: why is she so infamous? I don't find her my favorite character, but she is the source of plenty of punchlines and altogether another humorous character in the comic.

I can't think of a strong reason for someone to dislike Miko. There has to be something that I'm missing if so many people do. Please enlighten me.[miko is the kind of character you love to hate. People dont hate her because she isnt funny or doesent lead to punchline. People would hate miko for the same reason they would xykon cause shes a b****. In my opinion shes meaner than xykon, but i digress

Coffee_Dragon
2007-01-07, 06:43 PM
In my opinion shes meaner than xykon, but i digress

And surely there is nothing strange about that opinion...

teratorn
2007-01-07, 07:06 PM
Woo, Miko thread! I've said it before: all threads should be Miko threads.
So true.

Miko is the perfect opponent, yet she is good, and driven against the OoTS for valid reasons. She is more than a match for Roy, the hero. After Roy took the first beating I understood immediately that she would be an antagonist. I don't really bother about what other people think about her, except when the question of goodness comes into discussion. Miko shows compassion in the dirt farmers arc, where we do learn the alignment of most characters. Elan, Durkon, Roy are good, Haley is clearly the "goodest" of them all, V shows an indifference towards other people's suffering which is appalling, Belkar is evil.


5) I am very, very intrigued by the idea that the reaction to Miko is partially flavored by her gender. Hmmmm.
I wonder if part of my liking for the character isn't also flavored by her gender. I probably wouldn't care as much about a male Miko. I may be wrong but I think there would be no "male Miko-like paladin" fan club.

Demented
2007-01-07, 09:16 PM
If Miko had any compassion for the dirt farmers, she didn't show it.
Durkon didn't show any compassion either.
Elan just seemed happy to be participating.*
Roy was just glad to see a plothook.**
Haley actually showed compassion. ([gasp!])
Vaarsuvius showed a distinct lack of compassion.***

*At least at first. Afterwards, he admitted being proud of Haley's selflessness.
**On the one hand, Roy seemed to have rescuing the dirt farmer as at least a secondary concern. On the other hand, he did send Elan to do the rescue. If that's not proof of being evil....
***I suppose V's reaction barely fits into the neutral category.

teratorn
2007-01-07, 10:18 PM
If Miko had any compassion for the dirt farmers, she didn't show it.
I love the "calm yourself, old woman", a hint of concern, and a lot in poor social skills. She's priceless with the "I have heard enough". Such resolve... Best character yet. I may be reading too much into stick figures but for me she does show some level of compassion, she clearly is going to help the peasants. Even Roy refers to her actions as that (1st panel #213).



Durkon didn't show any compassion either.
Elan just seemed happy to be participating.*
Roy was just glad to see a plothook.**

By compassion I mean willingness to help and not just for the fun of killing stuff (Belkar). See page #212, Roy clearly states "want to help these" when he asks Haley about it. The fact that we don't see him asking Durkon means implicit agreement and is revealing of alignment. About Elan, the poor guy is in fact listening to the "old woman" on the first panel on page #213, he's clearly compassionate.