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Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-04, 04:18 PM
Lately there's been a lot of talk about whether or not it's possible to make a tier 1 class without spells. This is my attempt. Think of it as the evolution of my older Legend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276481)class, with less attention paid to things like balance. And so, without further ado...


The Myth

https://static.squarespace.com/static/51b3dc8ee4b051b96ceb10de/51ce6099e4b0d911b4489b79/51ce61b2e4b0d911b449d669/1326343550947/1000w/superman-batman-wonderwoman-medieval.jpg
By Jim Napier (http://geektyrant.com/news/2012/1/12/batman-wonder-woman-and-superman-medieval-fan-art.html)

Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d12

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, and Tumble.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort
Ref
Will
Special


1st
+1
+2
+0
+2
Heroic Deeds


2nd
+2
+3
+0
+3
Armor Mastery, Uncanny Dodge


3rd
+3
+3
+1
+3
Mettle


4th
+4
+4
+1
+4
Bonus Feat


5th
+5
+4
+1
+4
Combat Lord


6th
+6/+1
+5
+2
+5
Improved Uncanny Dodge


7th
+7/+2
+5
+2
+5
Legendary Deeds


8th
+8/+3
+6
+2
+6
You've Probably Heard of Me, Bonus Feat


9th
+9/+4
+6
+3
+6
Strategic Mind


10th
+10/+5
+7
+3
+7
Combat Prince


11th
+11/+6/+6
+7
+3
+7
Accurate Strikes


12th
+12/+7/+7
+8
+4
+8
Bonus Feat


13th
+13/+8/+8
+8
+4
+8
Mythic Action


14th
+14/+9/+9
+9
+4
+9
Mythic Deeds


15th
+15/+10/+10
+9
+5
+9
Combat King


16th
+16/+11/+11/+11
+10
+5
+10
Bonus Feat


17th
+17/+12/+12/+12
+10
+5
+10
Hero's Luck


18th
+18/+13/+13/+13
+11
+6
+11
I Am Who I Am


19th
+19/+14/+14/+14
+11
+6
+11
Unstoppable Hero


20th
+20/+15/+15/+15
+12
+6
+12
Eternal Champion



Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Myth is proficient with all simple, martial, and exotic weapons, and with all armor and shields (including tower shields)

Deeds (Ex): A Myth is not like other men. He is more powerful, more resilient, more real, and capable of actions his lessers would dismiss as impossible. Over the course of his life, he learns special techniques known as Deeds.

There are three levels of Deed. At first level, a Myth is only capable of learning and using Heroic Deeds. At 7th level, he gains access to Legendary Deeds, and at 14th, he may use Mythic Deeds.

To use a Deed, a Myth must expend focus— one point of focus for a Heroic Deed, two points for a Legendary Deed, and three for a Mythic Deed. Myths begin each day with a number of focus points equal to twice their Myth level plus their Charisma modifier. To refresh this pool, a Myth must rest for eight hours.

While a Myth is an extraordinary man, he is, in the end, just a man, and a man can only do so much so fast. A Myth may only use a limited number of different Deeds in a short time frame before his body and mind start to decay from the stress. Each day, he may use a number of unique Deeds equal to one-half his Charisma modifier plus one-fourth his level (minimum 1). He does not need to pick them ahead of time. To re-set his number of unique Deeds used, he must rest for eight hours. All three levels of a Deed-- Heroic Leaping, Legendary Leaping, and Mythic Leaping, for example-- count as one Deed for the purpose of counting unique Deeds.

Armor Mastery (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a Myth may ignore the speed reductions from medium and heavy armor. In addition, he may reduce the armor check penalty from any armor he wears by an amount equal to his Myth level, to a minimum of zero.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a Myth retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If the Myth already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Mettle (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, a Myth can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping Myth does not gain the benefit of mettle.

Bonus Feats: At 4th level, and at each subsequent fourth level, a Myth gains a bonus feat of his choice. He must meet all prerequisites for this feat, apart from two: he may use his Charisma score in place of any ability score requirements, and he may substitute his Myth legend for any Fighter level requirement.

Combat Lord (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, once per round, when a Myth takes an action that would provoke one or more attacks of opportunity, he may choose not to provoke those attacks. This ability does not function against characters with at least four more Myth levels than the user does.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Beginning at 6th level, a Myth can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the Myth by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has Myth levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

You’ve Probably Heard of Me (Ex): No matter how far a Myth wanders, he finds his story has spread farther still. Beginning at 8th level, when meeting new NPCs, their initial attitudes are one step more extreme than normal-- unfriendly NPCs become hostile, and friendly characters become helpful. Indifferent NPCs become either friendly or unfriendly.

In addition, the Myth gains a bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate checks equal to one-half his level, but takes an equal penalty to Disguise checks and Bluff checks made to conceal his identity.

Strategic Mind (Ex): Beginning at 9th level, a Myth may ready contingent actions. These contingent actions work exactly like readied actions, except that they remain readied indefinitely (without requiring the Myth to take any additional actions), they do not change the Myth's initiative order, and they are prepared differently.

To ready a contingent action, the Myth must spend one minute meditating, and expend one Focus point. He may not recover this focus point until he either uses the readied action or dismisses it (a free action).

A Myth may ready any action he could ready using the standard ready action. When the specified conditions occur, the contingent action activates immediately.

If a contingent action requires the use of expendable resources, the resources are consumed when the contingent action is triggered, not when it is readied. If the resources are unavailable when the contingent action would trigger, the contingency is lost and the focus point expended.

A Myth may have up to one contingent action readied per four class levels.

Combat Prince (Ex): Beginning at 10th level, a Myth does not provoke attacks of opportunity unless he wishes to. This ability does not function against characters with at least four more Myth levels than the user does.

Accurate Strike (Ex): Beginning at 11th level, when making a full attack, a Myth makes all iterative attacks at his full base attack bonus minus five, as shown on the table above.

Mythic Action (Ex): Beginning at 13th level, a Myth make take one additional swift or immediate action each round.

Combat King (Ex): Beginning at 15th level, any foe who attacks a Myth in melee combat provokes an attack of opportunity. This ability does not function against characters with at least four more Myth levels than the user does.

I Am Who I Am (Ex): Beginning at 18th level, it is almost impossible to change a Myth's basic character. He can still be affected by mind-affecting effects, polymorphing, petrification, and any other attack that alters his form or changes his alignment; however, any such effect wears off one round later.

Unstoppable Hero (Ex): Beginning at 19th level, when reduced to zero or fewer hit points, a Myth may spend Focus to keep from dying. He must spend one point immediately. At the beginning of each subsequent turn, or whenever he takes damage equal to or greater than his Myth level, he must spend more focus, with the amount doubling each time— first two points, then four points, then eight, and so on, until he either runs out of focus or chooses to stop spending it.

Eternal Hero (Ex): You've spent years traveling, fighting, doing great deeds. At what seems to be the pinnacle of your career, you turn back to look at the path you have walked, the world you have shaped, and you see yourself, as if in a mirror.… At 20th level, a Myth gains Divine Rank 0 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#rank0), with all relevant benefits. These include:

Maximum HP per HD, calculated retroactively.
Increased speed (60 feet for a medium creature, or 50 feet for a small Myth)
Deflection bonus to AC equal to his Charisma bonus
Increased synergy bonus
Immunity to energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind-affecting effects, polymorphing, petrification, and any other attack that alters his form.
DR 10/epic
Fire resistance 5
Spell resistance 32



ACF: The Trickster
Not all Myths are larger-than-life warriors. Some prefer to rely on cunning and stealth.
Changed

Hit Die: d8
Skills All
Skill Points: 6+Int
BAB: Medium
Fortitude: Poor (as Wizard)
Reflex: Good (as Rogue)

Lose: Armor Mastery, Combat Lord, Combat Prince, Combat King, Accurate Strikes

Gain:

Trapfinding: At first level, the Myth gains Trapfinding, as the Rogue ability

Sneak Attack: At first level, the Myth gains Sneak Attack, as the Rogue ability

Trap Sense: At 3rd level, the Myth gains a +2 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +2 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses increase by 2 every third level (+4 at 6th, +6 at 9th, and so on). Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.

Harm Anything: At 8th level, a Myth deals one-half sneak attack damage against even creatures normally immune, such as constructs and undead.

Trap Master: At 18th level, a Myth becomes immune to traps. All attack rolls made by traps against him automatically miss, and he automatically succeed on all reflex saves made to resist trap-based effects.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-04, 04:23 PM
Deeds are all (Ex) abilities. The saving throw for a Deed, if relevant, is 10 + 1/2 Myth level + Charisma modifier.

Deeds are sorted by level-- Heroic, Legendary, and Mythic. All three levels of a Deed-- Heroic Leaping, Legendary Leaping, and Mythic Leaping, for instance-- are separate Deeds, and must be learned separately. You must learn the lower-level versions of a Deed before you can learn the higher level ones.

Agility

Heroic
As a full-round action, you may move up to your speed and make your full allotment of attacks, as though you were making a full attack. You may make these attacks at any point in your movement, but you must move at least ten feet between each attack.

Legendary
As a move action, you may move up to twice your speed. This movement may be taken in any direction, including vertically— you may run, jump, bounce off walls, swing along projections, scramble up walls, and so on. You do not need to make any skill checks during this movement.

Mythic
You may activate this deed as an immediate action to dodge one attack, as though the attacker had rolled a natural one on his attack roll, or you had rolled a natural 20 on your Reflex save (and had Evasion). If used against a one attack in a full attack, you dodge all attacks made during that full attack.


Brawling

Heroic
For one minute, your unarmed strikes deal 1d8 damage (if medium-sized) per five Myth levels. You may deal lethal damage, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity for making unarmed strikes.

Legendary
For one minute, you may, as a free action, initiate a bull rush attempt against any foe you strike with an unarmed strike. You do not provoke an attack of opportunity, do not fall prone if you fail the Strength check, and you do not move, although you may determine the distance you push your foe as if you had. A foe you push more than 5 feet must make a Reflex save or fall prone.

Mythic
For one minute, any foe you strike with an unarmed strike must make a Fortitude save or suffer one of the following conditions (your choice): Blinded, Dazed, Exhausted, Nauseated, Paralyzed, or Stunned. The condition persists for one round per Myth level. At the end of each round, your foe may make a new save to remove the condition.


Charm

Heroic
As a full-round action, you may attempt to convince an opponent that you mean him no harm. They must make a Will save, with a +4 bonus if they is currently being attacked by you or your allies, and a +6 bonus if you have personally damaged them within the last hour. If they fail their save, they consider you their good friend, whom they will take mild risks to help.

Legendary
As a full-round action, you may project an aura of sheer, perfect personal magnetism. Targets within one hundred feet of you with a number of hit die equal to or less than your Charisma modifier must make a Will save or become instantly Friendly towards you. Those who fail by 5 or more instead become Helpful, while those who fail by 10 or more become Fanatical.

Any action that would harm one or more of these people allows the anyone who can see it to make a new Will save to shake off the effects. Once affected, the attitude change fades at a rate of one step per day until it reaches the level it would be without this ability.

A target who successfully saves against this Deed cannot be affected by it again for 24 hours, and one who fails his save against it cannot be affected again by it for 1 week.

Mythic
If you speak to a target whose attitude towards you is already neutral or better for one minute, you may force them to roll a Will save. If they fail, they are dominated, as though by a dominate person spell with a caster level equal to your Myth, although you do not form a mental link with them. Each hour that the target remains under the effects of this ability that is not spent in your company, they may roll a new Will save, with a +2 bonus for each hour since they were last in your company.


Competence

Heroic
As a swift action, you may grant yourself an insight bonus to all attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks and ability checks equal to your Charisma modifier for one minute.

Legendary
Whenever making an attack roll, damage roll, skill check or ability check, you may grant yourself a competence bonus equal to your Myth level plus your Charisma modifier. Doing so does not require an action. If you use this Deed when making a skill check, you can do so untrained.

Mythic
As an immediate action, you may take 20 on one attack roll, skill check or ability check. This does not count as a natural 20 for the purposes of scoring a critical hit, and does not take any more time than normal.


Comprehension

Heroic
You may activate this deed after spending a minute flipping through a book, scroll, or other form of data recording. You instantly memorize the information within, as though you had spent several days reading and studying it.

Legendary
After listening to or reading a new language for at least one minute, you may activate this Deed to instantly learn that language, as though you had spent a skill point on Speak Language.

Mythic
As a standard action, make a Spot check, opposed by your target's Bluff check. If you succeed, you read their body language well enough to detect their surface thoughts for one minute. Targets get a +4 bonus to their check if they are a different type than you.


Concussive Strike

Heroic
You must be wielding a bludgeoning weapon to use this Deed (Unarmed strikes count as bludgeoning weapons, for these purposes). As a standard action, make an attack with said weapon. On a success, in addition to normal damage, inflict 1d4 Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage. (Fortitude negates)

Anything immune to sneak attack damage or mind-affecting effects is also immune to this Deed.

Legendary
You must be wielding a bludgeoning weapon to use this Deed (Unarmed strikes count as bludgeoning weapons, for these purposes). As a standard action, make an attack with said weapon. On a success, you concuss the target badly enough to damage his memory. This has one of two effects (your choice):

The target loses one level to level drain. (Fortitude negates)
The target forgets 1d4 facts. These can be anything from "what the king looks like" to "my name." (Fortitude negates)


Lost facts can be restored with a heal or greater restoration spell. Anything immune to sneak attack damage or mind-affecting effects is also immune to this Deed.

Alternately, you may use Heroic Concussive Strike on a creature normally immune to sneak attack damage or mind-affecting effects.

Mythic
You may only use this Deed on a target if they have already been affected by Heroic or Legendary Concussive Strike three times, and you are wielding a bludgeoning weapon. (Unarmed strikes count as bludgeoning weapons, for these purposes).

As a full-round action, make a melee attack with said weapon. If you hit, the target must make a Fortitude save. If he fails, the target suffers a concussion bad enough to wipe out large parts of his mind. Any memories, opinions, class levels, feats, and so on which you choose may be removed. If this process is taken to the extreme, the target is left a mindless automaton, unquestioningly accepting any orders you give to it.

A greater restoration spell cast within 24 hours can undo the damage, but after that time, only a wish or miracle can cure the target. Anything immune to sneak attack damage is also immune to this Deed.


Counter

Heroic
When another Myth you are adjacent to activates a Deed, you may use Counter as an immediate action. The two of you make opposed rolls of d20 + Myth level + Charisma modifier. If you succeed, you disrupt the target's Deed, and he may not attempt to activate it again for a minimum of one round. If you fail, the target's Deed works as normal.

Legendary
As an immediate action after striking another Myth with a melee or ranged attack, you and your target must make opposed rolls of d20 + Myth level + Charisma modifier. If you succeed, you disrupt any Deeds with a duration currently affecting the target, such as Heroic Competence. The target cannot activate disrupted deeds again for 1d4 rounds. If you fail, the target's Deeds continue to work as normal.

Mythic
As a standard action, make a melee or ranged attack against another Myth. If you hit, deal damage as normal, and the target must make a Fortitude save. On a failure, he loses a number of points of focus equal to your Charisma score.


Crafting

Heroic
You may activate this Deed when making a Craft check in order to do so twice as fast as normal. In addition, you are considered to have all the necessary tools for crafting, although you still must provide raw materials.

Legendary
You may craft magical weapons, armor, rings, and constructs, as if you had a caster level equal to your Myth level, and the Craft Magic Arms and Armor Forge Ring, and Craft Construct feats. If you cannot find an ally or use a scroll to provide the prerequisite spells, you may instead substitute additional experience points-- 100 xp per spell level of the spell being replaced.

Mythic
You make activate this Deed whenever making a Craft check to complete the crafting process in 2d4 minutes. You still must make any appropriate skill checks. In addition, you may substitute experience points for material components-- 1 experience point per 25 gold worth of components-- as you assemble your creation out of whatever bits and pieces you have about your person.


Cut

Heroic
You may activate this Deed as a free action whenever you attack with a slashing weapon. For the remainder of the round, attacks you make with a slashing weapon hit incorporeal and ethereal targets as though they were corporeal.

Legendary
As a standard action when wielding a slashing weapon, you may slice your way through any object with a hardness less than that of your slashing weapon. The object can have a maximum thickness of six inches per Myth level.

If you take a full-round action, you may make one cut for every attack you could normally make in a full attack.

Mythic
As a full-round action, you may slice open a portal between planes. This functions much like the plane shift spell, but it creates a portal with a diameter approximately equal to your height. Anyone stepping through the portal is transported to the target plane. This portal may be short- or long-lived.

A short-lived portal remains open for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier.
A long-lived portal is remains open for a number of days equal to your Charisma modifier.


A portal may be closed either by casting a plane shift, dimension anchor, or similar such spell on it, by being dispelled, or by another Myth using this Deed on it. If a spellcaster attempts to dispel it, it counts as a conjuration spell with a caster level equal to your Myth level.


Grappling

Heroic
You may activate this deed as a free action after successfully hitting a foe with an unarmed strike, or any melee weapon which may be used to initiate a trip attempt. You may attempt to start a grapple as a free action, without provoking an attack of opportunity or making an initial touch attack.

Legendary
After successfully grappling a foe, you may activate this Deed. Make a second Grapple check; if it succeeds, you may wield the grappled foe as a weapon on subsequent turns. Grappled foes are two-handed weapons with a x2 crit modifier, dealing 2d6 damage, +2d6 for every size category over medium, -1d6 for every size category under medium, to a minimum of 1 damage-- to both the target of the attack and the grappled target. Grappled foes may attempt to escape from grapples normally.

Mythic
Once you have pinned your foe, make opposed grapple checks. If you succeed, your foe must make a Fortitude save. If he fails, you rip off an appendage. Creatures with 4 or more limbs of the same type reduce all penalties by half.

The loss of an arm causes a creature to be unable to cast spells with somatic components, wield two-handed weapons, shields, or any other activity which involves its off-hand. Its Strength modifier is reduced by half, it suffers a -4 penalty to any Strength or Dexterity-based checks, and a -2 penalty to all rolls due to pain and distraction.
The lost of a leg reduces a creature’s speed to one quarter normal. It suffers a -10 penalty to any check involving balance or movement (such as Climb or Tumble), a -4 penalty to Dexterity, and a -2 penalty to all rolls due to pain and distraction.
The lack of a head kills you. You're dead. If a creature has multiple heads, such as an Ettin, it instead takes half of its current maximum health in damage, and suffers a -4 penalty to all checks for one minute, due to disorientation. In addition, it loses any special attacks or qualities that depended on that head (such as the Ettin's Superior Two-Weapon Fighting)



Healing

Heroic
You may spend one minute providing first aid to a creature. At the end of the duration, make a Heal check. The target recovers a number of hit points equal to the result of your skill check. If your check result was at least 15, the target also heals 1d4 points of temporary ability damage.

A single creature may only be affected by this Deed a number of times per day equal to its Constitution modifier.

Legendary
You may use Heroic Healing as a standard action.

Alternately, you may spend the full minute. If you do, the target heals a number of hit points equal to twice the result of your skill check. If your check result was at least 20, he also heals:

All temporary ability damage
All points permanently drained from a single ability score
All negative levels
One experience level lost to level drain.


Mythic
You may use Legendary Healing as a standard action.

Alternately, you may spend the full minute. If you do, the target recovers all lost hit points. If your check result was at least 30, he also heals:

All negative levels
All levels lost due to level drain
Any effect penalizing his ability scores
All temporary ability damage
All points permanently drained from a single ability score
All forms of insanity, confusion, and similar mental effects



Inspiration

Heroic
You may activate this Deed as a non-action when making an Aid Another check. The bonus you grant is equal to the amount which you beat the DC 10, instead of +2.

Legendary
As a move action, you may call out encouragingly to your allies. Any ally who hears you gains temporary hit points equal to your Myth level, and may reduce conditions as though they had just used the Heroic Vitality Deed. Multiple uses of this Deed refill the pool of granted temporary hit points, but do not make it larger.

Mythic
The people know you, and they answer your call. By taking ten minutes to give a rousing speech, you may grant any Helpful NPC with fewer hit die than 1/3 your Myth level (rounded up) into a Warrior of an equal level, who is fanatically (though not suicidally) loyal to you. They possess hit die, feats, and skills as normal for a Warrior of their level, but no equipment. They remain in this state until slain or dismissed.

Myths with large numbers of followers may wish to use military unit templates (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hjp8?Military-Unit-by-template).


Interpose

Heroic
As an immediate action, you may place yourself between an adjacent ally and his attacker, making yourself the new target of the attack.

Legendary
As an immediate action when an ally is attacked, you may move up to your full movement speed. If you can reach the ally's square, you are the new target of that attack.

If you have move-action special powers that allow you to move, such as Legendary Agility, you may use one of those instead of a normal movement, although you must pay any costs associated with that ability.

Alternately, you may used Heroic Interpose as a non-action.

Mythic
As Legendary Interpose, but you may make yourself the new target of effects which do not require attack rolls, such as a finger of death spell. If using this Deed to protect an ally against an area attack, they are considered to have total cover against it.


Investigation

Heroic
You may activate this Deed as a free action when making a Search or Gather Information check. You complete the skill check ten times faster than normal.

Legendary
As a standard action, you may examine a target's clothing and bearing to determine certain facts about him. Make a Search check, with a DC equal to his HD + 10. (Your target may also oppose by a Bluff or Disguise check). On a success, you may determine your target's:

Age
Homeland and current residence
Social status
Class(es) and Prestige Classes
Level
Details about their past life as though you had cast a legend lore spell
Any other details the DM judges reasonable


Mythic
After spending a minute investigating a scene, you may deduce everything that happened in the area in the recent past— up to one day per Myth level. Exact wording and details are lost, but you know all the participants and the highlights of the conversations and events that took place.

If anyone attempted to hide their presence by mundane means, you may must make a Search check, opposed by their Hide or Disguise check, to identify their presence or actions. (Although you may still deduce their absence— you might pick up a murder victim, and the details of the deed, but not the killer's identity)

If anyone was warded by nondetection or a similar spell, you must make an opposed check of your Myth level verses the caster level of the protective spell.


Knowledge

Heroic
You may make a special Knowledge check with a bonus equal to your Myth level plus your Intelligence modifier to see if you know some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, noteworthy places, or monsters. This ability otherwise functions as Bardic Knowledge.

Legendary
If you successfully make a Knowledge check to identify a creature, you may activate this Deed as a swift action. For the remainder of the encounter, all your attacks against that monster deal an additional 1d4 damage per three Myth levels.

Mythic
As a full-round action, make a Knowledge check to predict what a specific creature is doing. The DC is 5 points higher than normal for identifying a creature of that type. If you succeed, you deduce 1d4 statements about the target's current location and activities.

You take all of the following penalties which apply:

-20 if you have no real knowledge of the subject.
-10 if you have only secondhand knowledge of the subject
-10 if you don't have even a rumor of what the target might be doing.
-5 if the target is of a different type than you.
-2 if the subject has a Chaotic alignment.


Even if you succeed at your check, there is a (21-Myth level) percent chance that your deductions are incorrect. You are not aware of whether or not your deductions are correct.


Leaping

Heroic
As a move action, make a Jump check. You jump a number of feet equal to the check result in any direction, and do not take a penalty for not having a running start. You may take your standard action in the middle of the jump. In addition, you have complete control over the jump's trajectory. Finally, you may take a standard action in the middle of your jump, allowing you to do things like jump straight-up to attack a flying dragon.

Legendary
As a standard action, you may make a long jump, carrying you one mile per Myth level. During the course of this jump, you move at a speed of one mile per round. You may take actions during the jump, but any attack roll or physical skill check is made at a -10 penalty due to the speed at which you move. Attempting to cast a spell requires a DC 20 Concentration check.

If there is a ceiling in the way, you may attempt to break through it by making a Strength check, with a bonus equal to your Myth level.

When landing, if you have traveled at least one mile, you may choose to strike the ground like a meteor. If you do so, all creatures and objects within 10 feet per level take 1d6 damage per Myth level and are knocked prone. A successful Reflex save halves the damage and negates being knocked prone.

Mythic
As a standard action, you gather your strength and hurl yourself out of the grasp of gravity and into low-Earth orbit. 1d6 minutes later, you plummet back to earth, anywhere on the surface of the same planet as you began your leap.

If there is a ceiling in the way, you may attempt to break through it by making a Strength check, with a bonus equal to your Myth level.

When landing, you may choose to strike the ground like a meteor. If you do so, all creatures and objects within 100 feet per level take 1d6 damage per Myth level, are stunned for 1d4 rounds and knocked prone. A successful Reflex save halves the damage and negates the stunning. This includes the surface you land on.

If you choose to land without dealing damage, you may still attempt to smash through ceilings by making a Strength check, with a bonus equal to your Myth level.


Mobility

Heroic
For one minute, you may ignore any hindrance caused by the natural world. This ability allows you to, among other things, move through dense undergrowth without being slowed, breathe underwater, and ignore extreme heat and cold as though affected by an endure elements spell. Extreme natural features, such as lava and lightning, can still damage you, however.

Legendary
When faced with a magical effect which would limit your mobility, such as an entangle or solid fog spell, you may make an opposed level check— your Myth level verses the effect's caster level. If you succeed, you may ignore the effects of the magic.

Mythic
For one minute, you gain a perfection bonus to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Swim, and Tumble checks equal to your Myth level times five. In addition, you may take 10 on such checks, even when threatened or distracted.


Parry

Heroic
As an immediate action, when targeted by a melee or ranged attack, you may make an attack roll with any melee weapon, natural attack, or unarmed strike you are currently wielding. Use the higher of your AC or your attack roll as your effective AC against the incoming attack.

This Deed is only effective against physical attacks— weapons, natural weapons, and unarmed strikes.

Legendary
As Heroic Parry; however, you may use it against any attack that requires an attack roll— anything from colossal projectiles to magical rays.

In addition, if you successfully block the attack— that is, it is prevented from hitting you due to AC— you may re-direct it at another target within range of the original attack, using the original attack roll. You may deflect ranged attacks back at the original attacker, but not melee attacks.

Mythic
As Legendary Parry; however, you may use it against any resistible attack that targets you, even if the attack didn't have an attack roll. Use an attack roll in place of a saving throw.

For example, if you are targeted by a finger of death spell and you use this Deed, make an attack roll in place of the Fortitude save. On a success, you may reflect the spell at any other target within Close range of the caster, including the caster himself.

If the effect you use this Deed to counter affects an area, such as a dragon's breath weapon, a successful "saving throw" allows you to re-aim the affected area, potentially protecting other creatures who would have been affected.


Perception

Heroic
For one minute, you gain a perfection bonus to Search, Spot, and Listen checks equal to your Myth level. In addition, you gain low-light vision and scent, if you did not possess them before. You may activate this Deed as a swift action.

Legendary
For one minute, you gain blindsense out to 10 feet per point of you Charisma modifier. In addition, you may see invisible creatures as though under the effect of a see invisibility spell, and may see and hear ten times farther than normal. You may activate this Deed as a swift action.

Mythic
For one minute, you may see as though under the effects of a true seeing spell. In addition, for the duration, you do not take any penalties to Spot and Listen checks, and may see one and hear hundred times farther than normal. You may activate this Deed as a swift action.


Precision

Heroic
You may activate this Deed as a swift action. Ignore all miss chances and external penalties to your next attack, except for those imposed by other Deeds.

Legendary
As a standard action, you may make a single attack against your target's touch AC. If wielding a ranged weapon, you must be within at least one range increment of your target to use this Deed.

Mythic
As a standard action, you may make a single attack which automatically hits, as though you had rolled a natural 20, although it does not threaten a critical hit, and does not activate a vorpal weapon.


Quake

Heroic
As a standard action, you strike the ground hard enough to make it shake. All targets within 10 feet must make a Reflex save or fall prone. Creatures add their size modifier to this save.

Legendary
As a standard action, you strike the ground hard enough to cause a small earthquake. This Deed functions as the spell Earthquake, except that it is an 80ft burst centered on you, and has a duration of Instantaneous. Fissures appear, but do not slam closed at the end of the spell— instead, they are 50 feet deep, requiring a DC 20 Climb check to climb out of. The save DCs are as normal for an Earthquake spell, not a Deed.

Mythic
As a standard action, you strike the ground hard enough to cause a small earthquake. This Deed functions as the spell Earthquake, except that it is a burst centered on you, with a radius of 25 feet per Myth level, and has a duration of 1d4 rounds. The save DCs are as normal for an Earthquake spell, not a Deed; however, you may add your Charisma modifier to the DCs.


Resistance

Heroic
As a swift action, you may grant yourself Damage Reduction X/-- for one minute, where X is equal to your Charisma modifier.

LegendaryAs a swift action, you may grant yourself Spell Resistance equal to your Myth level plus 12 for one minute.

Mythic
When you would be affected by a spell, spell-like, or supernatural ability, you may activate this Deed as an immediate action to completely negate the effect.


Shooting

Heroic
As a swift action, you may ignore all penalties to ranged attacks due to wind and weather, be they magical or mundane, for one minute. In addition, the range increment of any weapon you wield is doubled for the duration of this effect.

Legendary
As a standard action, make a ranged attack that ignores all non-total cover and all concealment. In addition, the projectile can maneuver in-flight as though it had Average maneuverability.

Mythic
What is distance, but a construction of the mind? All places are one place, and all targets are one target. You may take one minute to mediate on your target before making a single ranged attack against him, regardless of the distance between you, intervening walls, or any other such obstacle.

You may take penalties to attack if you do not have a normal line of effect, however. You take all of the following penalties which apply:

-5 if you don't have line of sight to your target, either in person or through a scrying effect.
-5 if the target is more than 100 range increments away from you.
-10 if you do not know the target's location to approximately one hundred feet.
-20 if the target is inside, underground, or otherwise "unlikely" to be reachable with a projectile.
-50 if you do not know the target's location to approximately 10 miles.



Speed

Heroic
For one minute, you gain a bonus to all movement speeds equal to your Charisma modifier times five. You may activate this Deed as a swift action.

Legendary
As a move action, you may move up to twice your base land speed speed, treading on water, walls, and even ceilings as though they were flat, solid surfaces. You must end this movement on flat, solid ground or you will begin to fall.

Mythic
You may activate this Deed as a non-action when you would roll Initiative. Your initiative count is considered to be one point higher than the highest initiative rolled. If two or more Myths both use this Deed, they act in order of Myth level, followed by unmodified Initiative roll.


Strength

Heroic
You may activate this Deed as a non-action when making a Strength or Grapple check. Gain a perfection bonus to your check equal to your Myth level. You may also take 10 on the check.

In addition, add your Strength and Charisma scores and uses the combined number when determining carrying capacity. This is a permanent benefit; you gain it as long as you have any Focus left for the day.

Legendary
You may activate this Deed as a non-action when attempting a combat maneuver which depends on size, such as tripping or grappling. For the duration of the maneuver, treat your opponent as though the two of you were the same size category.

When making a Trip or Bull Rush attempt, you receive a competence bonus to the opposed Strength check equal to that of your opponent minus your own. Thus, a Medium Myth tripping a Large Ogre would receive a +4 bonus, while a small Myth attempting to trip that same ogre would get a +8 bonus.

When attempting to grapple, you gain a bonus to your grapple check equal to your opponent's special size modifier minus your own. For example, if a Medium sized Myth (size modifier +0) attempts to grapple a Storm Giant (size modifier +8), then he would receive a +8 bonus.

Mythic
In one hour, you may do the work of a thousand men laboring for a year.


Stealth

Heroic
For one minute, you receive a perfection bonus to Hide and Move Silently checks equal to one-half your class level, and you do not take penalties for moving quickly while making such checks.

Legendary
As a standard action, when within your normal movement distance of a source of cover or concealment, you may make a Hide check, by anyone who may be watching. If you succeed, you successfully “vanish” and move to the hiding spot.

Mythic
As a standard action, you may make a Hide check, opposed by anyone who may be watching. If you succeed, you "teleport" 10 feet per Myth level, reappearing hidden behind cover or concealment. You must be capable of moving through all intervening space normally, through standard movement modes and skill checks.


Strike

Heroic
As a standard action, make a melee or ranged attack against one target. They must make a Fortitude save or suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks for one minute. In addition, during that time, they move at half speed and may not run or charge.

Legendary
As a standard action, make a melee or ranged attack against one target. They must make a Fortitude save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds.

Mythic
As a standard action, make a melee or ranged attack against a target within one range increment who would be denied their dexterity bonus to AC. They must make a Fortitude save or be instantly killed. A target who successfully saves against this Deed cannot be affected by it again for 24 hours.


Sundering

Heroic
As a swift action, you may cause your next attack to bypass damage reduction and hardness.

Legendary
As a standard action, you may attempt to dispel ongoing magical effects. Make a melee attack against the target of the effect or effects. If you hit, roll a d20 plus your Myth level plus your Charisma modifier. If the result is greater than the caster level of the magic, it is dispelled.

If you choose, your melee attack can deal no damage to the target. You may attack yourself when using this Deed.

This Deed otherwise functions like a targeted dispel magic.

Mythic
As a standard action, make a melee attack against an inanimate object. This attack ignores hardness and damage reduction, and counts as a critical hit if you hit. All damage you deal to part of a large structure (such as a section of wall, which is part of a building) is also dealt to all connected pieces of the structure within ten feet per Myth level.


Surge

Heroic
As a swift action, you may take a move action.

Legendary
You may use Heroic Surge as an immediate action.

As a swift action, you may take a standard action.

Mythic
You may use Legendary Surge as an immediate action.

As a swift action, you may take a full-round action, or a standard action and a move action, or two move actions.


Throw

Heroic
When making a melee attack, you may activate this Deed as a free action. You may throw your weapon with a range increment of 25 feet, and have it bounce back into your hand immediately thereafter. In all other respects, this functions as a melee attack— you add your Strength modifier to your attack roll, do not take penalties for shooting into a melee, and gain the benefits of feats like Power Attack, and so on.

If you activate this Deed while making a full attack, you may make a ranged full attack as your weapon bounces from one target to another before returning to your hand. For the purpose of range increments, measure total distance from the Myth to his target, even if the weapon travels farther during its bouncing.

Legendary
When you have grappled a foe, you may throw him as a standard action. Treat him as a throwing weapon with a range increment of ten feet, dealing 1d6 damage per 100 pounds of weight plus twice your Strength modifier. The thrown foe takes this damage as well.

You must be able to lift the foe over your head to throw him.

Mythic
With a mighty surge of effort, you send an enemy hurling over the horizon.

To use this Deed, you must be already grappling a foe. As a standard action, make an additional grapple check. On a success, you hurl your foe up to one mile per point of your Strength modifier. When he lands, he takes 1d6 damage per Myth level and is stunned for 2d4 rounds. (A successful Reflex save reduces the damage by half, and a successful Fortitude save negates the stunning).

During his flight, the thrown foe moves at a speed of one mile per round. He may take actions during the flight, but any attack roll or physical skill check is made at a -10 penalty due to the speed at which he is moving. Attempting to cast a spell requires a Concentration check with a DC of 15 + Myth level.

Targets with flight speeds may attempt to arrest their flight by making a Fortitude save as a standard action.

Targets with the ability to teleport may teleport out of their flight, but not their momentum— they continue to move in a straight line, and take full damage upon striking a solid object.

You must be able to lift the foe over your head to throw him.


Thrust

Heroic
After damaging a foe with a piercing weapon, you may choose to leave your weapon embedded in the target. Until they can pull it out-- which requires a move action and a Strength check with a DC equal to your Myth level plus your Strength modifier plus any enhancement bonus possessed by the weapon-- they are immobilized.

You may use a ranged weapon with this Deed, but you must be within one range increment of your target to do so.

Legendary
This Deed functions as Heroic Thrust, but in addition to being immobilized, pinned foes are affected as though by a dimension anchor spell, and creatures which were already ethereal or incorporeal are rendered corporeal again until they remove the weapon.

Mythic
This Deed functions as Legendary Thrust, but in addition to the previous effects, the target must make a Fortitude save or be paralyzed until someone else removes the weapon.


Vitality

Heroic
As an immediate action, you may reduce a condition you are currently suffering from to a lesser version, as shown on the table below. You may only do so once per condition.

{table=head]Condition |Reduce to:
Ability Drained|Ability Damaged
Blinded|Dazzled
Confused|Fascinated
Cowering|Dazed
Dazzled|Unaffected
Exhausted|Fatigued
Fascinated|Unaffected
Fatigued|Unaffected
Frightened|Shaken
Immobilized|Entangled
Nauseated|Sickened
Panicked|Frightened
Paralyzed|Stunned
Shaken|Unaffected
Sickened|Unaffected
Stunned|Dazed[/table]

Legendary
As an immediate action, you may attempt a new saving throw against an effect. You may use this Deed even if the effect does not normally allow a saving throw at the time, such as when you are already affected by a slow spell.

Mythic
You may use Legendary Vitality even when suffering from a condition which does not allow you to take actions, such as being stunned or petrified.




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Name

Heroic


Legendary


Mythic

unbeliever536
2013-10-04, 05:18 PM
So deeds would be broken in their own special way, rather than just mimicing spells? :smalltongue:

This is really cool though; a flavorful, serious, tier 1 mundane character is not something you expect to see every day. Not a huge fan of charging xp for more deeds (wizards, after all, don't pay xp for new spells), but otherwise good work. Whether it actually hits tier 1 will of course depend on what the deeds look like, but what's there is promising. That jumping deed especially looks awesome. One thing I would say is that it would be nice if some basic effects were replicated among different deeds (like multiple deeds granting conditional spell resistance, or dispelling under certain conditions), in order to avoid any becoming "required" by virtue of being what is needed for the Myth to win rocket tag/be useful.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-04, 05:35 PM
This is really cool though; a flavorful, serious, tier 1 mundane character is not something you expect to see every day. Not a huge fan of charging xp for more deeds (wizards, after all, don't pay xp for new spells), but otherwise good work. Whether it actually hits tier 1 will of course depend on what the deeds look like, but what's there is promising. That jumping deed especially looks awesome. One thing I would say is that it would be nice if some basic effects were replicated among different deeds (like multiple deeds granting conditional spell resistance, or dispelling under certain conditions), in order to avoid any becoming "required" by virtue of being what is needed for the Myth to win rocket tag/be useful.
Glad you like the look of it so far.

I tried to make the basic chassis include most of the essential defensive and action-economy stuff. At the very least, you've got all good saves, Evasion, Mettle, bonus actions, contingent actions, and a few of the key immunities-- it should leave you on par with a mildly-optimized wizard, even before Deeds.

As for the learning... I had a few ideas, and I wasn't sure which one to use. XP seemed like a happy medium... In increasing order of broken-ness, they were:

A handful of Deeds, with higher levels purchased automatically.
Some limited number of Deeds with no option for expanding.
Some Deeds granted for free, others purchased with XP
Some Deeds granted for free, others purchased with gold
All Deeds known; a limited number "prepared."
All Deeds known and available.

toapat
2013-10-04, 06:22 PM
At 20th level, a Myth gains Divine Rank 0, with all relevant benefits.

is the 20 HD + 20 Class levels an intended side effect of the capstone?

LOTRfan
2013-10-04, 06:27 PM
is the 20 HD + 20 Class levels an intended side effect of the capstone?

I'm pretty sure the SRD states that only Outsiders with a Divine rank have this, and even then the number of class levels vary.

Squark
2013-10-04, 06:32 PM
No, the 20 outsider HD is not a garunteed part of being a deity; Deities who used to be Mortal don't have it.

Corwin Icewolf
2013-10-04, 07:25 PM
Wizards can learn new spells with Spellcraft, so maybe use perform or something? Or make a new skill... I don't know, it's not quite the same as a wizard, since I guess myths don't really study for their abilities? I'm still not fond of the xp cost thing, though...

Realms of Chaos
2013-10-04, 07:32 PM
Well, this class certainly is something. A serious attempt at a tier one class and it does an interesting job at what it set out to do.

Perhaps because it does such a good job, however, this class kind of fails as a class that would actually see use out of hyper-optimized campaigns as it monopolizes a large area of design space.

To put what I mean in perspective, consider the wizard. The wizard is tier 1, certainly, but there are certainly reason for someone trying to be an arcanist to take another class such as bard, dread necromancer, beguiler, or even duskblade.

If someone chooses to not be a caster, meanwhile, there is precious little reason to ever not choose this class. You've got factotum skills, monk saves, barbarian HD and BAB, full proficiencies, bonus feats, immunities, bonus damage, action economy, and a full magic system that allows the myth to accomplish just about any task on top of all of that.

There is no reason to take levels in any other nonmagical class ever when this guy exists, meaning that the game is reduced to several caster classes plus the one-and-only designated non-caster class. This is something I've also noticed with fighter fixes that give tons of skills and rogue fixes that give full BAB and more offensive abilities but the addition of deeds here really pushes this over the top.

To reiterate, I am not saying that I hate this class or that you have failed to make a tier 1 mundane class. Further, I know that it is not in any way your fault that other mundane classes are so weak. All that I'm saying is that using this class causes a real paradigm shift from a game where some classes that cast spells and some that don't to a game where everyone is a spellcaster unless you specifically take the designated noncaster class, which some people may not appreciate.

There is, however, a relatively simple way to make this class tier one without being better than anything else in every condition. To put is simply, all that this class needs to achieve tier 1 are the deeds. Everything else from the tons of skills to the hp to the saves and BAB to any of those other class features just aren't needed to reach tier 1. If you gave out deeds at a faster rate, you could literally take out every single other class feature and tone down the chassis and this class would still reach tier 1 while allowing other classes to theoretically shine in their own ways.

Edit: Also, while many have simply claimed that a tier 1 mundane class is "impossible", do be aware that having one exist does cause some problems for many campaigns. Imagine teleportation that can't be stopped by dimension lock, pseudo-scrying that mind blank doesn't stop, invisibility true sight can't pierce, and other forms of typically magical effects that can't be stopped through anti-magic, dead magic, or through any spell or defense. What I'm saying, I guess, is that you may want to include several deeds and spells created for the purpose of stopping entire sub-categories of deeds.

Razanir
2013-10-04, 08:31 PM
I agree with TPAM about needing Deed-cancelling Deeds and spells. Also, you might consider adding utility deeds. Like some form of shapechanging, some form of diplomancy, some form of travel...

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-04, 08:35 PM
First up, posted a dozen Deeds. I'll make more as I have more ideas; if you have ideas, please toss 'em out. (I know I need to get planar travel in there somewhere, just not sure what to do with the rest of the chain)


is the 20 HD + 20 Class levels an intended side effect of the capstone?
I'm not super-familiar with the rules for divine rank, but my reading of the SRD doesn't turn up any evidence for that... the closest I could find was "Most deities are creatures of the outsider type (usually with 20 outsider Hit Dice)." As far as I can tell, I granted some immunities, SR 32, DR 10/epic, and immortality.


Wizards can learn new spells with Spellcraft, so maybe use perform or something? Or make a new skill... I don't know, it's not quite the same as a wizard, since I guess myths don't really study for their abilities? I'm still not fond of the xp cost thing, though...
Martial Lore? Hmm... I'm not really feeling a skill check anywhere in the process... might just change it to unspecified "gold spent on research..."


If someone chooses to not be a caster, meanwhile, there is precious little reason to ever not choose this class.
I do see your issue here, and it was something I considered when I was designing the thing. Ultimately, though, I decided that I was OK with that. This is a class meant to be used in a T1/T2 campaign, and right now there are no non-casters in that space. A choice of one is still infinitely better than a choice of none. I'd like to make it as versatile as possible within that space, though, so you can have Myths with different enough focuses that they don't feel redundant, though. Just not sure how to do that without making distinct "deed lists," though.


Edit: Also, while many have simply claimed that a tier 1 mundane class is "impossible", do be aware that having one exist does cause some problems for many campaigns. Imagine teleportation that can't be stopped by dimension lock, pseudo-scrying that mind blank doesn't stop, invisibility true sight can't pierce, and other forms of typically magical effects that can't be stopped through anti-magic, dead magic, or through any spell or defense. What I'm saying, I guess, is that you may want to include several deeds and spells created for the purpose of stopping entire sub-categories of deeds.
That's something that I probably hadn't thought about enough. I went back in and added an anti-deed deed, like you suggested. I also tried to write Deeds such that they weren't just "(ex) teleport." Now that they're posted, I'd love to hear what you think on the matter.

Realms of Chaos
2013-10-04, 10:27 PM
I do see your issue here, and it was something I considered when I was designing the thing. Ultimately, though, I decided that I was OK with that. This is a class meant to be used in a T1/T2 campaign, and right now there are no non-casters in that space. A choice of one is still infinitely better than a choice of none. I'd like to make it as versatile as possible within that space, though, so you can have Myths with different enough focuses that they don't feel redundant, though. Just not sure how to do that without making distinct "deed lists," though.

I guess that my complaint was less about you making things tier 1 and more that you really seemed to go overboard in doing so. To reiterate my previous post, all that this class needs to reach tier 1 is the deeds. If you have a system that can be used to accomplish any necessary task and a further mechanic to gain access to all of those capabilities, you are already tier one.

Everything else, from the amazing chassis and skills to the bonus feats to the miscellaneous immunities and features, is completely extra. Take a moment to note that the cleric and wizard both have next to no class features of note.

If you gave this guy a bit more focus to spend and more deeds per level (and maybe twisted some of those defenses from class features into deeds), you could trim off the fat and get a class that would still be perfectly usable in a tier 1/2 game while remaining usable in other campaigns as someone may want skill monkeys and warriors that don't rely on depleting resources.

If there are any more features that Myths really should possess, you could always give them their own forms of feats to match the metamagic and item creation feats of casters (otherwise, what would they really want to spend those feat slots on? :smallconfused:)


That's something that I probably hadn't thought about enough. I went back in and added an anti-deed deed, like you suggested. I also tried to write Deeds such that they weren't just "(ex) teleport." Now that they're posted, I'd love to hear what you think on the matter.

A couple thoughts on what is out there.

First, the flavor of mind-slice is pretty baffling if you want to maintain mundane flavor. You may want to reflavor as being a concussion-based ability or a fear-based ability.

Leaping is also a bit odd. First of all, does leaping let you break through ceilings to get where you're going (Leaping out of a dungeon, for example)? Secondly, the last stage of the ability may want to state that it drops you anywhere on the same planet rather than on the same plane as the material plane consists of multiple planets last time I checked (at least in most campaign settings). Also, you may want to tweak the first stage so you only fall at the end of your action (so this guy has a way to hit flying creatures in melee)

As far as other abilities, I've been working on a similarly full system so I've got a few suggestions:

Intimidation (maybe ending with some geas-ish effect)

Stealth

Crafting (maybe including something like fabricate)

An ability for perception

A separate ability for finding specific things (ala tracking/discern-location)

An ability about raw endurance

An ability to trap others in mind games (make them admit the truth and eventually "mind control")

Speed ability (incorporate freedom of movement and time stop-esque effect, maybe)

The ability to planeswalk in some shape or form.

Other things to consider are:

Creating spells that end deeds (instead of only the reverse)
Creating a feat to grant one minor deed and 1 point of focus
Creating a few feats that this class would want to invest in.
Perhaps an alternative to magic items in the form of paragon items (stuff that gods would forge), capable of granting numeric bonuses and/or limited use of deeds.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-04, 11:21 PM
If you gave this guy a bit more focus to spend and more deeds per level (and maybe twisted some of those defenses from class features into deeds), you could trim off the fat and get a class that would still be perfectly usable in a tier 1/2 game while remaining usable in other campaigns as someone may want skill monkeys and warriors that don't rely on depleting resources.
Hmm... yeah, OK, you may be right. Hmm, what to cut...

I could write an actual class list, I suppose. Social skills, movement skills, and spot/listen... 4/rank...
Evasion/Good Reflex are relatively expendable...
Bonus feats... could maybe be cut back some...
____ Surge abilities convert easily to Deeds.
Immunities... are kind of weird as Deeds, but are too vital to high-level play for me to want to cut them altogether... maybe some kind of immediate-action-Iron-Heart-Surge Deed instead...
Masterstroke might be able to go as well...


And maybe make a sneaky ACF: swap Armor Mastery and Masterstroke for Trapfinding and Sneak Attack; maybe make this the only version to get good


First, the flavor of mind-slice is pretty baffling if you want to maintain mundane flavor. You may want to reflavor as being a concussion-based ability or a fear-based ability.
Yeah... I first came up with the ability for my New Gods-themed M&M campaign, and what works for evil assassin gods doesn't make so much sense here... concussion-stuff might work, I suppose.


Leaping is also a bit odd. First of all, does leaping let you break through ceilings to get where you're going (Leaping out of a dungeon, for example)? Secondly, the last stage of the ability may want to state that it drops you anywhere on the same planet rather than on the same plane as the material plane consists of multiple planets last time I checked (at least in most campaign settings). Also, you may want to tweak the first stage so you only fall at the end of your action (so this guy has a way to hit flying creatures in melee)
Good points.



As far as other abilities, I've been working on a similarly full system so I've got a few suggestions:
...
Other things to consider are:

Good ideas all.

UPDATE: Made most of the chassis changes mused on above, and shuffled a few other things around to compensate. Now there are all those ugly dead levels, though... need to think of something flavorful to put back in there...

silphael
2013-10-05, 01:11 AM
I think something you should try to find is, basically, dead levels. I know your classe will get deeds at those, and often a feat, but... no real novelties in some levels. So at levels 5 and 13, i think you should add something. Maybe not much, but something to make those levels feels worthwhile. Oh, and... Bonus Feat isn't a class feature. Or at least shouldn't be.

So, about the class :
-skills : no knowledge? what about adding knowledge(pick 3) to let the player customize?
-skill points : nice, the minimal amount for anything except wizards (who should get 0+int anyway)
-HD : of course ^^
-saves : just make them all good. He doesn't have evasion so that's fine.
-features : deeds... well, wait and see here, but i think mythic competence should count as natural 20.
Main issue here : too many thing are condensed at low level. Mettle at fourth level is nice, what about adding improved mettle later? Maybe add a "there is no such thing as no save!" class feature, making it roll on fort/will (whichever is highest, punition for trying such a puny act on a Myth) ^^
Combat King... is a good idea. Maybe change it in "a given AO case works only once"? so basically at 6th level it's highly plausible that you already have encountered all cases, while not outright cancelling things like Robilar's Gambit.
You should probably make the list of the benefits you're thinking about for DVR0.
But yeah, again, bonus feat shouldn't be a class feature.

More on Deeds :
-already talked about competence
-mythic concussive should works on immunes to crits. "I'll strike you so bad you'll forget your dead mother!" oh, wait, and legendary should have something like 50% chance to work. Add that even things immunes to fort saves aren't immunes ^^
-counter and healing are fine ^^
-mythic leaping should allow you to break through planes imo. The heroic is fine, and should even be the new ruling on jump checks...
-legendary parry needs a correction, twice ranged attacks in a row, once accepted, the other refused.
-as written, mythic quake DC is 10 +1/2 lvl + 2*cha. Is it intended? Even if it is, i think it's a nice choice, the class has ways to be MAD.
-resistance : should let you choose to be affected freely, without needing actions to cancel/reactivate your SR
-lower the penalties on shooting, and make them non cumulative. Hell i wanna try to shoot that sneaky wizard hiding in his insane subterran dungeon, or at least make him even more paranoid : YES, it's possible now!
-same as concussive, make all strike bypass fort immunity.
-legendary sundering should have "heroic activation is now a free action", and mythic "heroic activation is now a free action that you can take out of your turn" or something like that.
-surge and vitality are nice too.

After some reading, i think it still lacks action economy to be consiered a true tier 1 mundane : too many deeds are activated in swift/immediate actions.
The contingent actions are a really nice idea, and you're even adding how many of those you can have.

unbeliever536
2013-10-05, 02:58 AM
Discussing some deeds:



Concussive Strike
Mythic
You may only use this Deed on a target if they have already been affected by Heroic or Legendary Concussive Strike three times, and you are wielding a bludgeoning weapon.

As a full-round action, make a melee attack. If you hit, the target must make a Fortitude save. If he fails, the target suffers a concussion bad enough to totally alter his memory or personality.

A greater restoration spell cast within 24 hours can undo the damage, but after that time, only a wish or miracle can cure the target. Anything immune to sneak attack damage is also immune to this Deed.


What does "totally alter his memory or personality" mean?



Parry
Legendary
As Heroic Parry; however, you may use it against any attack that requires an attack roll— anything from colossal projectiles to magical rays.

In addition, if you successfully block the attack— that is, it is prevented from hitting you due to AC— you may re-direct it at another target within range of the original attack, using the original attack roll. You may deflect ranged attacks back at the original attacker, but not ranged attacks.


Awkward contradiction is awkward. However, I like the mythic ability a lot.



Shooting
Mythic
What is distance, but a construction of the mind? All places are one place, and all targets are one target. You may take one minute to mediate on your target before making a single ranged attack against him, regardless of the distance between you, intervening walls, or any other such obstacle.

You may take a penalty to attack; these penalties are cumulative.

-5 if you don't have line of sight to your target, either in person or through a scrying effect.
-5 if the target is more than 100 range increments away from you.
-10 if you do not know the target's location to approximately one hundred feet.
-20 if the target is inside, underground, or otherwise "unlikely" to be reachable with a projectile.
-50 if you do not know the target's location to approximately 10 miles.



This should probably just be "you take any of the following penalties that apply." Neat, though.



Sundering
Mythic
As a standard action, make a melee attack against yourself or one target. If you hit, you may instantly end any spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting the target with a duration of 1 or more rounds.

Effects with a temporary duration, or those which can be dispelled, are instantly ended as though they were dispelled. Effects without duration, such as gravity, are nullified for 2d4 rounds.


What does nullifying gravity do?


And my own entry, trying to bring in some plane shifting:

Subtle Cut(?)

Heroic
You must be wielding a slashing weapon to use this deed.

For the next round, your attacks ignore miss chance due to incorporeality.

Legendary
You must be wielding a slashing weapon to use this deed.

Make an attack roll against AC 20 as a full round action. If you succeed, you slice open a portal to any plane that is coterminous or coexistant with your current plane. The portal is 5 feet wide and 8 feet tall for every five feet of reach you possess (including the increase from wielding a reach weapon, if applicable). It persists for one round, plus one additional round for every 5 points by which your attack roll result 20.

Mythic
You must be wielding a slashing weapon to use this deed.

You may use Legendary Subtle Cut as a standard action.

Also, while you are on the ethereal, shadow, or astral plane, you may make an attack roll against AC 25 as a full round action. If you succeed, you cut a pocket in reality in which you and your allies may rest. You create a portal to a cylindrical demiplane with a height and radius of 100 feet for each five feet of reach you possess. You determine the characteristics of the plane you create at the time that you use this deed, though you cannot create plane where time flows at a rate slower than 1 local hour / 1 material plane round, or faster than 1 local round / 1 material plane hour. However you choose to construct the plane, it lasts for 1 local hour, plus 1 hour for each 5 points by which your attack result exceeds 25. The portal remains open for 1 local round per hour of the plane's duration, or 5 rounds on the material plane (whichever is shorter). However, you may choose to open and close the portal whenever you wish. The portal is the same size as the portal you would create with Legendary Subtle Cut. Another character on your demiplane may attempt to cut their way out by making an attack with a slashing weapon against the edge of your plane. If they beat the attack roll that created the plane, they create their own portal (sized according to their reach), which stays open for one local round.


Because of the levels at which legendary/mythic deeds become accessible, this gives some fairly powerful effects a few levels early. If some deeds get level prereqs, I would definitely delay the mythic and legendary versions of this deed by two levels or more. I'd also like an effect for the heroic version that fits better with the other ones, but I can't think of anything at the moment.

e: also, I think Combat King can be fleshed out into a multi-part, multi-level ability. I could easily see the Myth being able to make attacks of opportunity in response to attacks against him. Also, other myths should be able to counter Combat King (like rogues can counter IUD).

Milo v3
2013-10-05, 03:14 AM
Slightly disappointed there isn't any Unarmed Attack support, sure the Myth can use:
Competence
Counter (Legendary, Mythic)
Quake
Strike
Sundering

But he can't use Concussive Strike or Parry. Cause he isn't wielding a bludgeoning weapon and he doesn't have melee weapon he is currently wielding. Unless the wording of the Improved Unarmed Strike's making you count as armed counts (which I think it doesn't), cause your still not wielding an unarmed strike.

Aside from that, this class is pure awesome. Oh, and smart adding in the gravity thing to specifically remind everyone to use it like Iron Heart Surge. :smalltongue:

ben-zayb
2013-10-05, 04:04 AM
So... Tier 1-2 mundanes. Yes, we've seen the rise of these threads recently in both the RPG and Homebrew forums. Let's do this! :smallamused:


...
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d12

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, and Tumble.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort |Ref |Will |Special
1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Heroic Deeds
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Armor Mastery
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|
4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Mettle, Bonus Feat
5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Combat King
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Legendary Deeds
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Bonus Feat
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Strategic Mind
11th|+11/+6/+6|+7|+3|+7|Accurate Strikes
12th|+12/+7/+7|+8|+4|+8|Bonus Feat
13th|+13/+8/+8|+8|+4|+8|
14th|+14/+9/+9|+9|+4|+9|Mythic Deeds
15th|+15/+10/+10|+9|+5|+9|
16th|+16/+11/+11/+11|+10|+5|+10|Bonus Feat
17th|+17/+12/+12/+12|+10|+5|+10|Hero's Luck
18th|+18/+13/+13/+13|+11|+6|+11|
19th|+19/+14/+14/+14|+11|+6|+11|Unstoppable Hero
20th|+20/+15/+15/+15|+12|+6|+12|Eternal Champion[/table]
...
As for the chassis, it will obviously be far better than your generic T1s sans the cleric. D12 HD, full BAB, 4+Int skill points, two good saves. My questions for you are these:

Fluffwise, do you really see the Myth, as a widely-encompassing archetype/class/template, really needing to have a D12, full BAB, and the two good saves in particular?
Are there not Mythic figures who aren't necessarily known for being tough, combat-oriented, or especially resilient, yet are capable of doing ridiculously mundane things at such epic proportions? (some greek and nordic heroes come to mind)


I'm not necessarily against it, but I'm just contemplating on the term "the Myth" being relegated to a specific heavy-beatdown, tough, resilient person stereotype. I can't imagine Oddyseus, for example, necessarily having a d12 and a good Will Save. This class feels definitely like a "Mythic Warrior", but not necessarily a "Mythic Hero".

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Myth is proficient with all simple, martial, and exotic weapons, and with all armor and shields (including tower shields)
Standard for the combat oriented beast, yeah.
Deeds (Ex): A Myth is not like other men. He is more powerful, more resilient, more real, and capable of actions his lessers would dismiss as impossible. Over the course of his life, he learns special techniques known as Deeds.

There are three levels of Deed. At first level, a Myth is only capable of learning and using Heroic Deeds. At 7th level, he gains access to Legendary Deeds, and at 14th, he may use Mythic Deeds.
Hmm, if I get the power distribution right, this ability would open up the possibility of doing tricks even a T2 caster can't do four levels after. Probably intentional, but whoa!

A Myth begins play knowing one Deed, and learns one additional Deed every time he gains another level of Myth. In addition, he may seek out and learn new deeds, either from other Myths, or from songs, stories, legends, and so on. Learning a new deed in this manner costs experience— 100 xp to learn a new Heroic deed, 500 to learn a new Legendary deed, and 1000 to learn a new Mythic deed. In addition, seeking out evidence of a deed in song and story take time— one week for a Heroic deed, two weeks for a Legendary Deed, and three weeks for a Mythic deed.
So I suppose this is the part where being T1 will happen, comparable to the Wizard scribing all spells using gold instead. I like this since it still fits flavorwise, while such non-scaling costs, like the wizard scribing, are merely token inconveniences at mid-high levels.
To use a Deed, a Myth must expend focus— one point of focus for a Heroic Deed, two points for a Legendary Deed, and three for a Mythic Deed. Myths begin each day with a number of focus points equal to their class level plus their Charisma modifier. To refresh this pool, they must spend one hour practicing or meditating.
What I get from this is that the Myth's resource system is better than other T1s in terms of flexibility, since it's more or less renewable every encounter. At level 14, unlike a psion, the Myth could nova his best abilities (maybe to the tune of L9 effects?) a minimum of 4/encounter, without worrying much about further combat/RP/puzzle encounters. I guess in a high powered game, this is just about average. But I think other T1s in contrast would need far higher optimizing to do to even reach this level or resource-spending flexibility.
Armor Mastery (Ex): Beginning at second level, a Myth may ignore the speed reductions from medium and heavy armor. In addition, he may reduce the armor check penalty from any armor he wears by an amount equal to his Myth level, to a minimum of zero.
My only critique is that this feature is heavily biased on the Armored legend archetype, which may or may not be the case for every mythical figure (like the barbarian-types). If this isn't the intention, may I suggest also giving benefits for all kinds of "armored-ness". (I've seen some fighter fixes here that have such class benefits)
Mettle (Ex): Beginning at 4th level, a Myth can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping Myth does not gain the benefit of mettle.
Yep, the good 'ol "fighter fix" stand-by feature, parallel to a rogue's evasion. As someone already asked, why no Improved Mettle?
Bonus Feats: At 4th level, and at each subsequent fourth level, a Myth gains a bonus feat of his choice. He must meet all prerequisites for this feat, apart from two: he may use his Charisma score in place of any ability score requirements, and he may substitute his Myth legend for any Fighter level requirement.
Reinforces the Cha SADness. Maybe not every Mythic figure relies on Cha, so what makes the Myth unable to rely on other mental stats the way The Legend does?
Combat King (Ex): Beginning at 6th level, a Myth no longer provokes attacks of opportunity for any reason.
I like this ability, but for some reason I find it to be "too absolute, too soon".
Strategic Mind (Ex): Beginning at 10th level, a Myth may ready "contingent actions." These contingent actions work exactly like readied actions, except they remain readied indefinitely, without requiring the Myth to take any special actions, and his initiative count doesn't change.

To ready a contingent action, the Myth must spend one minute meditating, and expend one Focus point. He may not recover this focus point until he either uses the readied action or dismisses it (a free action).

A Myth may have up to one contingent action per four class levels readied.
Another usual classic "fighter fix" feature that I like for mundanes. Question, how does readying a Deed work? Do we spend the Focus at the time of preparing, and if so does this mean we also can't recover those Focus yet? Can a spellcaster/myth ready spells too?:smalleek:
Accurate Strike (Ex): Beginning at 11th level, when making a full attack, a Myth makes all iterative attacks at his full base attack bonus minus five, as shown on the table above.
Another Legend shout-out that I'm thinking may be too much, but that's just me.
Unstoppable Hero (Ex): Beginning at 19th level, when reduced to zero or fewer hit points, a Myth may spend Focus to keep from dying. He must spend one point immediately. At the beginning of each subsequent turn, or whenever he takes more damage, he must spend more focus, with the amount doubling each time— first two points, then four points, then eight, and so on, until he either runs out of focus or is healed.
Does "whenever he takes more damage" take into account multiple attacks, and multiple layers of spells that deal piddly damage? Does "healed" mean "healed back to positive HP", or does a cantrip heal reset the focus costs to 1? :smallamused:
Eternal Hero (Ex): You've spent years traveling, fighting, doing great deeds. At what seems to be the pinnacle of your career, you turn back to look at the path you have walked, the world you have shaped, and you see yourself, as if in a mirror.… At 20th level, a Myth gains Divine Rank 0, with all relevant benefits.Nice capstone!

So basically, it has far more class features too, arguably comparable to the Druid's. In contrast to other T1s who would be severely crippled in an Antimagic Field, being a mundane class (and having no such thing as Anti-Ex or Antideed Zone) obviously makes him immune to the possibility of being in such a bad situation.

A general question about deeds: Does Improved Mettle affect them? (i.e. only taking damage everytime) A clarification might be stated if this wasn't the intention.

Concussive Strike: The wording implies, but not explicitly rules, that the melee attack made must be from the held Bludgeoning weapon (so someone with Imp. Unarmed Strike, sap offhand, or Animated Shield might wack someone with a Spiked Chain and trigger this). Also, is the Mythic Deed a Level 14 Mind Rape?
Healing: Do realize that this is 1d20+mod heal in combat, and a 20+mod heal OOC, which is far better than the best servants of Pelor could do at first level. Personally, flavorwise, I'm not digging the first-aid feel too (how can a first aid be better than a dedicated, specialized healer anyway?). The later abilities feels too much like a profession than a combat skill, so much that it's akin to making a Master-Chef deed to make uber-buffing cuisines or uber-curative herbal teas.
Leaping: Does the long jump require that you take the full range, or not? If it is, do you think it's balanced to give it a CL-d6 damage on a mininum 70ft. area radius per turn by virtue of hopping 5ft. to and fro?
Resistance: OMG. Too much, Too soon, if not just plain out of balance. The irony is that one problem is solved by the Myth in not making the mundanes totally outclassed by the caster, but in turn presented a new problem of making the magicians not only outclassed, but rendered irrelevant. If the Range deed is the answer to Wind Wall and Stormrage to overcome difficulties, what is the non-buffer caster's answer to this? A parallel effect would be nothing short of an indispellable "protection from all attacks and attack damage, and then reflect all damage back" spell.
Strike: The Mythic (L14) ability is a plain Save or Die with no catch, no immunities, no answers.

Training: something like temporarily granting Deed effects of varying strengths
Motivation/Inspiration: buff effects like temp HP, attack/damage/AC/save/skill bonus
Adapt Techniques: temporarily copying observed (fighter) feat/s that may be permanently learn later, if qualified in exchange for something
Severing Strike: for Slashing Weapon, something that especializes on denying mobility (paralysis/immobilization, action limitation/reduction like "slow" effect, speed reduction, or Dim.Lock effects by temp. rending magical link to other planes, sever soul to make rezzing harder/impossible)



Overall, it's a great class in that it can hold it's own when partied with T1s, while still retaining the Badass Normal feel, but it definitely could use some balancing IMHO.

Durazno
2013-10-05, 09:26 AM
That might be an idea for a feat that this class could use, though: one that lets you use your hands as a variety of weapon-types, bludgeoning with your fists, slashing with the edge of your hand and piercing with your fingertips.

silphael
2013-10-05, 09:30 AM
Oh, and i forgot this morning... you should maybe add a surge-type class feature, like 1/day, maybe 2-3 times per day at lvl 20, to make it different from the rest of the features that are "hourly"

Cheiromancer
2013-10-05, 10:16 AM
In what way is this character class "mundane"? The stock examples of mundane abilities (swinging a sword, using a skill check) are at will, and are similar to what real world humans can accomplish. Even if only an Olympic athlete (or equivalent) can accomplish them, they are still mundane. Another feature of mundane abilities is that any character can get them provided they have high ability scores and enough skill points and feat slots. Some characters could get them early (with the right class skills and bonus feats or whatever), but anyone could, with training, gain any mundane ability.

In the Myth class, "deeds" are similar to spells or powers, albeit with a power pool of "focus points". And only this class gets access to them. I have trouble seeing how any ability that is paid for with power points (or, for that matter, a vancian mechanic) is mundane. Nor how an ability to jump for miles could possibly be mundane.

I guess what I'm looking for is a conception of "mundane" that the Myth satisfies, one that is the ballpark of what people mean when they say "mundane". I expect that it will not satisfy the criteria I am using (similar to real world exploits; accessible to any character; usable at will), but maybe my criteria are flawed.

Oh, and I am supposing that the abilities of a Tier 1 character are internal to that character. You could give a commoner a ring of infinite wishes and it could meet any challenge (the definition of tier 1), but that seems a lame way of meeting the tier 1 mundane challenge. Or give them a cohort with such a ring. Or allow them to diplomance a creature that gives infinite wishes. Etc. These are all lame ways of meeting the challenge.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-05, 10:26 AM
I expect that it will not satisfy the criteria I am using (similar to real world exploits; accessible to any character; usable at will), but maybe my criteria are flawed.
In many ways, your criteria are OK, but... not for high-level D&D. Not if we want anything resembling balance in a game where magicians can teleport across the world as a standard action and create new planes with a single spell.

In other news, I added a skillmonkey ACF, like I was considering. I thank the rest of you for your feedback; I'll address it as soon as I have time.

Cheiromancer
2013-10-05, 11:01 AM
In many ways, your criteria are OK, but... not for high-level D&D. Not if we want anything resembling balance in a game where magicians can teleport across the world as a standard action and create new planes with a single spell.

In other news, I added a skillmonkey ACF, like I was considering. I thank the rest of you for your feedback; I'll address it as soon as I have time.

Let's narrow the question to whether there can be a mundane character that is tier 1 at low levels (level 5, say). I would tend to say "No." There are low CR challenges that can only be handled with magic (allips and what not), and that is outside of a mundane character's purview. So a mundane character can at best be tier 3, even at low levels.

It gets worse. I would also say that an effective high level character cannot be entirely mundane. There needs to be some sort of phlebotinum that is the source of its power. Ki energy, or access to the akashic record, or latent psychic ability, or divine blood, or exposure to magic radiation or something. It is just too hard to suspend disbelief otherwise. But if such power sources mean that the character is no longer mundane (as I use the word, anyway).

I suppose I would count external sources of magic as an acceptable kind of phlebotinum. A rogue can find magic items, crank up their UMD skill and have party members buff them, nerf enemies and use battlefield control. You can count the rogue as mundane since none of the magic is internal. But such a character is clearly dependent on non-mundane classes to make magic items and cast spells. I don't think it is fair to count it as both mundane and high tier, though. High tier characters are supposed to solve problems on their own, not with equipment and effects generated by members of different classes.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-05, 11:50 AM
I think something you should try to find is, basically, dead levels.
I'm aware of the issue... right now, I'm trying to find something interesting to put in there that doesn't increase the power level too much-- I originally had features in all 20 levels, but I turned a lot of them into Deeds to improve balance.


-features : deeds... well, wait and see here, but i think mythic competence should count as natural 20.
Mythic Competence + Vorpal Weapon = everything dies forever, no save. No thank you.


Main issue here : too many thing are condensed at low level. Mettle at fourth level is nice, what about adding improved mettle later? Maybe add a "there is no such thing as no save!" class feature, making it roll on fort/will (whichever is highest, punition for trying such a puny act on a Myth) ^^
Mettle is good. Improved Mettle is astoundingly broken, providing you with near-immunity to all of the best spells in the game. No thank you.


Combat King... is a good idea. Maybe change it in "a given AO case works only once"? so basically at 6th level it's highly plausible that you already have encountered all cases, while not outright cancelling things like Robilar's Gambit.
Good thought about Robilar's; the other thing would probably be too much bookkeeping for too little benefit.


You should probably make the list of the benefits you're thinking about for DVR0.
Yeah, good idea.


-mythic leaping should allow you to break through planes imo. The heroic is fine, and should even be the new ruling on jump checks...
Planes will be another Deed.


-legendary parry needs a correction, twice ranged attacks in a row, once accepted, the other refused.
-as written, mythic quake DC is 10 +1/2 lvl + 2*cha. Is it intended? Even if it is, i think it's a nice choice, the class has ways to be MAD.
Whoops. (Also, the class is actually very SAD, thanks to Heroic Competence.)


-resistance : should let you choose to be affected freely, without needing actions to cancel/reactivate your SR
Right now, the only thing balancing those abilities is the fact that they also shut off friendly stuff. They're not permanent, so it's not the huge issue that, say, the monk's SR is.


-lower the penalties on shooting, and make them non cumulative. Hell i wanna try to shoot that sneaky wizard hiding in his insane subterran dungeon, or at least make him even more paranoid : YES, it's possible now!
Come on, you got this. BAB 20 + all the Competence Deeds gives you an attack roll of 60+2*Charisma+Dex+everything else you have boosting your attack rolls.


-same as concussive, make all strike bypass fort immunity.
Balance says "aurghohgodwhy?"


-legendary sundering should have "heroic activation is now a free action", and mythic "heroic activation is now a free action that you can take out of your turn" or something like that.
Hmm... eh, I don't think so. You can do so through Surge and Strategic Mind if you want it.


After some reading, i think it still lacks action economy to be consiered a true tier 1 mundane : too many deeds are activated in swift/immediate actions.
Don't forget Strategic Mind. There was an element of balance in making everything require actions, though. (I am considering granting an extra swift action/round, though)



What does "totally alter his memory or personality" mean?
Will clarify.


What does nullifying gravity do?
DM adjudicates. The ability is deliberately open-ended.


And my own entry, trying to bring in some plane shifting:
Hmm...


e: also, I think Combat King can be fleshed out into a multi-part, multi-level ability. I could easily see the Myth being able to make attacks of opportunity in response to attacks against him. Also, other myths should be able to counter Combat King (like rogues can counter IUD).
Maybe, and yes, good point.


Slightly disappointed there isn't any Unarmed Attack support
Whoops. (I'm pretty sure unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning damage, but yes, good idea).


<stuff lost due to double-quoting>
I've added a 'trickster' ACF, which should address the "only a brute" issue.
Good point about focus refilling... maybe switch it to 2/level+Cha, which can only be refilled after 8 hours of rest. (I dropped the option to become immune to fatigue, so that should be OK).
I thought a Cha focus made the most sense for a larger-than-life character. But how 'bout some feats to shift that?
Combat King will probably get spread out some, aye.
I'll clarify Strategic Mind some.
Accurate Strike is as much for simplicity as for power.
I'll clarify Unstoppable Hero a bit more.


A general question about deeds: Does Improved Mettle affect them? (i.e. only taking damage everytime) A clarification might be stated if this wasn't the intention.
I'm sorry, I don't follow.


Concussive Strike: The wording implies, but not explicitly rules, that the melee attack made must be from the held Bludgeoning weapon (so someone with Imp. Unarmed Strike, sap offhand, or Animated Shield might wack someone with a Spiked Chain and trigger this). Also, is the Mythic Deed a Level 14 Mind Rape?
Will address, and... yeah, little bit. But you have to fail four saves which involve punching people-- it's a little harder to use subtly. I might go back to the "just making people forget" aspect, though...


Leaping: Does the long jump require that you take the full range, or not? If it is, do you think it's balanced to give it a CL-d6 damage on a mininum 70ft. area radius per turn by virtue of hopping 5ft. to and fro?
The damage is fine, but the area is a bit much, I admit... maybe the area should be based on distance traveled, rather than level.


Resistance: OMG. Too much, Too soon, if not just plain out of balance. The irony is that one problem is solved by the Myth in not making the mundanes totally outclassed by the caster, but in turn presented a new problem of making the magicians not only outclassed, but rendered irrelevant. If the Range deed is the answer to Wind Wall and Stormrage to overcome difficulties, what is the non-buffer caster's answer to this? A parallel effect would be nothing short of an indispellable "protection from all attacks and attack damage, and then reflect all damage back" spell.
Yeah, fair enough. I'll cut those back.


Strike: The Mythic (L14) ability is a plain Save or Die with no catch, no immunities, no answers.
They do need some save-or-lose abilities to keep up... any suggestions for how to make this a bit more balanced? Only 1/target/24 hours, or something?


As for Deed suggestions, I have
Thanks!


Oh, and i forgot this morning... you should maybe add a surge-type class feature, like 1/day, maybe 2-3 times per day at lvl 20, to make it different from the rest of the features that are "hourly"
What do you mean?

Belial_the_Leveler
2013-10-05, 11:51 AM
A rogue can find magic items, crank up their UMD skill and have party members buff them, nerf enemies and use battlefield control. You can count the rogue as mundane since none of the magic is internal. But such a character is clearly dependent on non-mundane classes to make magic items and cast spells. I don't think it is fair to count it as both mundane and high tier, though. High tier characters are supposed to solve problems on their own, not with equipment and effects generated by members of different classes.


A legendary rogue should be able to shoot someone in the eye from a thousand feet away to blind them. Or to stab exactly at the right place in your spine to induce permanent extraordinary paralysis or hit your head the right way to knock you out.
They should have the reaction time to take a 5-foot step after the spellcaster aims his spell but before the spell lands, instantly dodging targeted spells, or perform actions with their hands faster than the reaction times of other people so that nobody could take readied or immediate actions against them.
They should be able to take multiple mundane actions per round - even real-world people can draw a gun and accurately shoot in under a fifth of a second so how about a Rogue 20 being able to aim and shoot or take comparable actions 20 times per round?
They should have enough experience with microexpressions to know exactly when you're lying or what you're feeling, and enough imagination and mental focus to display false thoughts to your divinations.
They should have enough experience to be able to disguise themselves exactly as someone else so when a wizard tries to use any spells that require a description -such as scry spells- they'd fail because they'd be finding two or more identical people in different places.
They should know to build their lair with the exact same architecture as a public place so when a wizard tries to teleport, they would go to the public place, not the lair.
They should know that there's no spell that sees through mist -especially at a distance- so a meeting in a medieval sauna equivalent is kinda hard to scry upon.
They should know how to make unusual poisons. I.e. mix beholder eye extract with black lotus so the poison is also naturally antimagic and can't be protected from or cured magically.




Should I go on? Mundane does not mean "impossible to compete with magic".

Belial_the_Leveler
2013-10-05, 11:56 AM
BTW, from Pathfinder;



Planar Leap

A hekatonkheires traverses the planes by physically smashing through planar boundaries and crashing devastatingly into the target plane itself. Once per year as a full-round action, a hekatonkheires can, as part of a jump, plane shift to any other plane (as per the spell of the same name). It can only bring itself and its gear when it travels in this manner. When the hekatonkheires reaches its destination plane, it falls from the sky and crashes to the ground, creating a devastating explosion of thunder and fire. Any creature within 300 feet of the point where the hekatonkheires lands (including the titan itself) takes 20d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 20d6 points of sonic damage (Reflex DC 38 for half). The save DC is Constitution-based.


That would be a pretty nifty deed, wouldn't it?

Carl
2013-10-05, 12:09 PM
@Cheiromancer: Given what high level skill checks can do even the most mundane class break's the Olympic level pretty rapidly.

Corwin Icewolf
2013-10-05, 12:32 PM
@Cheiromancer: Given what high level skill checks can do even the most mundane class break's the Olympic level pretty rapidly.

Definitely. Too bad combat doesn't do the same. There's something weird about the guy who can climb on the ceiling with his toes being limited to the same range categories with his bow as everyone else.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-05, 12:40 PM
OK, all changes mentioned in my last post have been made.

Zweisteine
2013-10-05, 01:32 PM
Strategic Mind (Ex): Beginning at 9th level, a Myth may ready "contingent actions." These contingent actions work exactly like readied actions, except they remain readied indefinitely, without requiring the Myth to take any special actions, and his initiative count doesn't change.

A readied action may be any action which a Myth may normally take. He may ready a Deed, or a spell, if he has the ability to cast one. In cases such as these, where resources must be expended to activate the readied ability, they are used at the time the readied action is triggered, not when it was prepared. If the Myth no longer has the resources to use the readied action, it is instantly un-readied.

Combat Prince (Ex): Beginning at 10th level, once per round, a Myth does not provoke attacks of opportunity unless he wishes to. This ability does not function against characters with at least four more Myth levels than the user does.

(To ready a contingent action, the Myth must spend one minute meditating, and expend one Focus point. He may not recover this focus point until he either uses the readied action or dismisses it (a free action).

A Myth may have up to one contingent action per four class levels readied.)

I think some of the text for Strategic Mind (marked with parentheses) ended up under Combat Prince.

I think the section starting with "A readied action may be..." needs some clarification, mostly in the first two sentences. I assume that it is simply stating what may be readied as a contingent action, but the phrasing makes it sounds like readying an action is unique to Myths, or that they ready actions differently. Perhaps "a Myth may ready any action..." or something similar would be more clear.

Where you mention resource requirements for certain actions, it might be simpler to state "If a contingent action requires the use of expendable resources, the resources are consumed when the contingent action is triggered, not when it is readied."

Also, if the required components are not in the Myth's possession, is the contingency immediately lost, or is it just wasted when it would have activated?

You might want to clarify how that would work for a spell that requires a focus rather than material components.

I also think that the ordering of the text for Strategic Mind could be made more organized (see last spoiler).

Combat Prince's text is a bit awkward (though perfectly understandable). The wording of "A Myth does not provoke attacks of opportunity" somewhat contradicts the preceding "once per round." While the intent is not truly unclear, it is a bit vague. I would suggest something alone the lines of "Once per round, when a Myth of 10th level or higher takes an action that would provoke one or more attacks of opportunity, he may choose not to provoke those attacks."

Based on everything I said above, this is how I might word the section I quoted (with a few small grammar/clarification edits):


Strategic Mind (Ex): Beginning at 9th level, a Myth may ready contingent actions. These contingent actions work exactly like readied actions, except that they remain readied indefinitely (without requiring the Myth to take any additional actions), they do not change the Myth's initiative order, and they are prepared differently.

To ready a contingent action, the Myth must spend one minute meditating, and expend one Focus point. He may not recover this focus point until he either uses the readied action or dismisses it (a free action).

A Myth may ready any action he could ready using the standard ready action. When the specified conditions occur, the contingent action activates immediately.

If a contingent action requires the use of expendable resources, the resources are consumed when the contingent action is triggered, not when it is readied. If the resources are unavailable when the contingent action would trigger, the contingency is lost and the focus point expended.

A Myth may have up to one contingent action readied per four class levels.

Combat Prince (Ex): Once per round, when a Myth of 10th level or higher takes an action that would provoke one or more attacks of opportunity, he may choose not to provoke those attacks.



*This would be more similar to the original text, but I feel that it makes less sense: "If at any time the Myth lacks the required resources to use the contingent action, the action is lost as if dismissed."

I apologize if this post is a bit pretentious. I am still working on my polite/proper reviewing skills.

unbeliever536
2013-10-05, 02:12 PM
Big fan of these changes, but Combat Prince landed right in the middle of the description for Strategic Mind. Also, I would suggest that "You've probably heard of me" should give a Diplomacy buff too. Not all PCs are scary scary murderhobos, after all.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-05, 02:39 PM
Yay, typos! Zweisteine, thanks for the wording advice. Unbeliever536, good idea.

Ziegander
2013-10-05, 03:10 PM
I guess that my complaint was less about you making things tier 1 and more that you really seemed to go overboard in doing so. To reiterate my previous post, all that this class needs to reach tier 1 is the deeds. If you have a system that can be used to accomplish any necessary task and a further mechanic to gain access to all of those capabilities, you are already tier one.

Okay, so, given that RoC has a solid criticism in this, how could we take the challenge to the furthest level of difficulty and produce multiple, different mundane Tier 1 classes such that they each have a unique list of incredibly versatile and powerful abilities able to rival spells and still occupy their own design space?

In the PHB we have Clerics, Druids, and Wizards, all Tier 1s, all with different conceptual space as well as different class features and spell lists. Is it possible then to imagine multiple mundane classes that all make it to Tier 1 but with an equal amount of uniqueness as those big three? I can see this being a fun challenge. :smallsmile:

EDIT: The only "mundane" classes in the PHB are the Barbarian, Fighter, and Rogue. Of those three, only the Rogue really seems like it has the breadth of concept to be able to make it to Tier 1 with some imagination on our part. Or am I wrong? The Monk, Paladin, and Ranger all feel like they have enough design space to blow up to Tier 1, but of course, none of them are normally fully mundane.

unbeliever536
2013-10-05, 04:41 PM
Okay, so, given that RoC has a solid criticism in this, how could we take the challenge to the furthest level of difficulty and produce multiple, different mundane Tier 1 classes such that they each have a unique list of incredibly versatile and powerful abilities able to rival spells and still occupy their own design space?

In the PHB we have Clerics, Druids, and Wizards, all Tier 1s, all with different conceptual space as well as different class features and spell lists. Is it possible then to imagine multiple mundane classes that all make it to Tier 1 but with an equal amount of uniqueness as those big three? I can see this being a fun challenge. :smallsmile:

EDIT: The only "mundane" classes in the PHB are the Barbarian, Fighter, and Rogue. Of those three, only the Rogue really seems like it has the breadth of concept to be able to make it to Tier 1 with some imagination on our part. Or am I wrong? The Monk, Paladin, and Ranger all feel like they have enough design space to blow up to Tier 1, but of course, none of them are normally fully mundane.

The Myth pretty thoroughly covers the Fighter's role...I'm thinking some kind of Trickster for the rogue's spot, and an NPC Crafter class (because the blacksmith of the gods should be tier 1, even if he's boring to play). I'll see what I can whip up for the Trickster tomorrow.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-05, 05:23 PM
A tier 1 blacksmith exists-- it's called the artificer.

A tier 1 trickster could be interesting, though. Sort of a "stole fire from the gods" type deal... maybe take inspiration from that one PrC that's all about pretending to be a caster?

IronFist
2013-10-05, 05:55 PM
This looks really interesting, but it doesn't feel mundane to me.

ben-zayb
2013-10-05, 06:32 PM
I'm sorry, I don't follow.
What I meant was that some Deeds follow the logical syntax: <On a successful attack, target is affected by something. A successful save negates the effect, but still takes the damage>

Sort of the thing that Mettle/Improved Mettle might affect (not sure though).

Will address, and... yeah, little bit. But you have to fail four saves which involve punching people-- it's a little harder to use subtly. I might go back to the "just making people forget" aspect, though...
Hmm.. didn't see that balancing measure. The problem I have is that it does seem weird to beat up a sleeping person and somehow he wakes up and starts following your orders. Maybe have him "forget" some feats/spells/maneuvers/invocations/etc. (effectively just suppressing from the "known" list) until he gains a level or got a greater resto? The memory wipe I could see being permanent as it has not much mechanical gimping.
The damage is fine, but the area is a bit much, I admit... maybe the area should be based on distance traveled, rather than level.With the 1 mile jump minimum? It's definitely conceivable to affect an area that big(10ft/CL). I just don't think bunny hopping should be able to achieve the same effect, mostly for mechanical and balance reasons. :smalltongue:
Yeah, fair enough. I'll cut those back.Those fixes are more balanced, and more versatile IMO.
They do need some save-or-lose abilities to keep up... any suggestions for how to make this a bit more balanced? Only 1/target/24 hours, or something?Maybe still make it a death effect, but you could enforce some CL check for Death Ward effects against 15 + Myth class level + Cha or something so they could at least have an answer for it.1
Okay, so, given that RoC has a solid criticism in this, how could we take the challenge to the furthest level of difficulty and produce multiple, different mundane Tier 1 classes such that they each have a unique list of incredibly versatile and powerful abilities able to rival spells and still occupy their own design space?

In the PHB we have Clerics, Druids, and Wizards, all Tier 1s, all with different conceptual space as well as different class features and spell lists. Is it possible then to imagine multiple mundane classes that all make it to Tier 1 but with an equal amount of uniqueness as those big three? I can see this being a fun challenge. :smallsmile:

EDIT: The only "mundane" classes in the PHB are the Barbarian, Fighter, and Rogue. Of those three, only the Rogue really seems like it has the breadth of concept to be able to make it to Tier 1 with some imagination on our part. Or am I wrong? The Monk, Paladin, and Ranger all feel like they have enough design space to blow up to Tier 1, but of course, none of them are normally fully mundane.

Hmm... I'm pretty sure we already have a "T2 Barbarian" class in the form of the Teramach (though I thought Xefas was aiming for T1, too).

As for actually being T1s, I'm still not sold on the Myth being such, probably because it still has plenty of those unfinished Deeds like planar travel, etc. The class right now is easily a badass mundane combat breaker (it's got some of the "power" part of tiering down), but is far from being a campaign breaker yet.

Now, if there's an archetype that could possibly break the T3 ceiling for mundanes, that definitely is the rogue. A properly-made skill-based class could be made to matchup in power to casters, and just the wealth of different skills should offer good enough versatility.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-05, 10:16 PM
What I meant was that some Deeds follow the logical syntax: <On a successful attack, target is affected by something. A successful save negates the effect, but still takes the damage>

Sort of the thing that Mettle/Improved Mettle might affect (not sure though).
I... think I follow? In which case, none of the deeds I have yet written qualify for Mettle, since they don't have lesser effects on a successful save-- the damage is separate.


The problem I have is that it does seem weird to beat up a sleeping person and somehow he wakes up and starts following your orders.
Bump-your-head-and-lose-memory is a thing. Bump-your-head-and-change-personality is established in bad soap operas, at least...


As for actually being T1s, I'm still not sold on the Myth being such, probably because it still has plenty of those unfinished Deeds like planar travel, etc.
I'm working on it, OK? We're not done yet.

Ghost Nappa
2013-10-05, 10:58 PM
1) Is there a way to increase the maximum dexterity bonus allowed when wearing some form of armor (either feat or deed)?

2) I think the penalty to Disguise should be moved to Hide. Imposters and fan-boys/fan-girls and such are really common I feel like, it makes more sense to make it harder to hide than blend in.

3)Does someone get a fluff bonus if we pair Myths and Bards together on a team?

ben-zayb
2013-10-06, 02:30 AM
I'm working on it, OK? We're not done yet.
Yup. I'm sorry if the critiquing came off more whiny and less constructive. The parts that I left off the critique IMO were already done well so I can't say anything more helpful to those. :smallfrown:

But so far, I applaud the effort and the cojones for even attempting such a challenge. :smallbiggrin:

Fizban
2013-10-06, 04:32 AM
Lookin pretty effective from what I've read so far. I see you have invalidating any skill check in there, as well as punching facts out of people's heads, nice. Well done in letting them break their "deeds known" limit, as that's one of the wizard's main shticks. The only problem I'd have is that the majority of people aren't actually prepared to play full tier 1 and couldn't actually pull it off: actually doing so takes some serious player skill or basically dictating the whole game to the DM. In my experience prepared casters are never prepared no matter how hard they try, but since the Myth is more of a Psion with it's spontaneous flexible pool and all known Deeds ready at all times, it's a lot easier to play, and for anyone not fully prepared with maximum invincibility buffs he'll kill them without trying. But that's for the group to decide, the class itself does its job nicely.

As for making multiple classes, there aren't *really* multiple tier 1's, if you think about it the right way. They're all spellcasters, they can do mostly the same things. The main separation is that arcanists have more direct effects, clerics get the best healing and question answering divinations, and druids get a pet and shapeshifting at the cost of some mild restrictions (a few of the better spells only work outside, whoopie). So you can just do the same thing: take healing off the main combat guy's list and put it on another guy's list with some Sherlock level deduction Deeds, then make a third guy with pets/shapeshifting and a more restricted Deed list.

Yakk
2013-10-06, 07:01 AM
The teleport (jumps) is by far the least mundane of the abilities.

Some kind of buffing mechanics could fill some dead levels, and maybe open up more variation. If we gave the class points to spend on perma buffs, and points to spend on short term (daily) buffs? Not deed points.

More reputation effects, even an entire system, might be justified. As an idea, inspiring loyalty from NPCs you do quests for and/or interact with.

Raw bonuses to skills, even 1-2 points per level, feels mundane, yet a +40 to a skill check can be useful.

Deeds that require a focus, even a magical one, might help with keeping the class mundane. Any keen weapon enabling planar travel as you cut between the planes. Or an ability to find the weak points. Or an ability to find the natural, pre existing paths.

Teleportation is basically the ability to go somewhere skipping the encounters I. between. Some kind of 'prepared travel' that is not instant would rival it?

Maethirion
2013-10-06, 07:48 AM
This is an awesome idea, I really like it. It hits that line of being brilliant and powerful while still feeling mundane fairly perfectly in my eyes.

Small nitpick:
Under Bonus Feats, it says "he may substitute his Myth legend for any Fighter level requirement"
Is that meant to read levels, or is the implication that there's some kind of mechanical component to the backstory?

Amechra
2013-10-06, 08:13 AM
Some feats require a "Fighter Level" to qualify. You're thinking of "levels in the Fighter class."

ben-zayb
2013-10-06, 08:37 AM
Some feats require a "Fighter Level" to qualify. You're thinking of "levels in the Fighter class."

I think he was referring to the "Myth legend" as possible typo for "Myth level". Would substituting like this also imply that it's a level replacement instead of a level stacking effect?

Amechra
2013-10-06, 08:40 AM
Ah, gotcha.

unbeliever536
2013-10-06, 02:13 PM
What does Hero's Luck do? It's listed on the table at level 17, but there's no description of the ability in the class.

Realms of Chaos
2013-10-06, 04:25 PM
Okay, so, given that RoC has a solid criticism in this, how could we take the challenge to the furthest level of difficulty and produce multiple, different mundane Tier 1 classes such that they each have a unique list of incredibly versatile and powerful abilities able to rival spells and still occupy their own design space?

In the PHB we have Clerics, Druids, and Wizards, all Tier 1s, all with different conceptual space as well as different class features and spell lists. Is it possible then to imagine multiple mundane classes that all make it to Tier 1 but with an equal amount of uniqueness as those big three? I can see this being a fun challenge. :smallsmile:

Before this line of thought gets too far, just wanted to give my two cents.

I've noticed something about making multiple tier 1 classes that is pretty darn unintuitive. To make multiple classes each capable of doing everything, the key is to make sure that they can't do everything... directly.

As I said, this is pretty unintuitive, though it seems to be how real tier 1 classes have worked so far. When you think about things, I'd hope that it makes some sort of sense. If everyone was equally capable of doing everything, your choice of class would be nothing more than a thin coat of paint, which I doubt is true even in tier 1 games. Rather, each tier 1 class, despite having access to everything by definition, has some stuff that "it doesn't do".

First, you could grant delayed, imperfect, and indirect access to certain abilities for each class. For an example of what I mean, think of wizards and healing. A wizard can make a clone or get temp hp through necromancy, heal a bit of hp through transmutation (polymorph), or summon/call/charm monsters with more direct healing abilities but the actual ability of the wizard to heal is always pretty sub-par when compared to a cleric or druid.

As another example, consider how UMD or an equivalent skill might help you patch up weaknesses in your specific skillset or how a miracle/wish equivalent may allow you to imitate those abilities you don't possess at the highest levels, albeit as a high cost.

But, yeah, I do feel that each separate tier 1 class in a system needs a set of relative deficiencies that it might be able to technically overcome but that a member of another class would really be good at.

As far as what different classes could exist, I'm thinking of one wilderness-focused class, one urbane-focused class, and one battlefield-focused class. If you are willing to compliment deeds with supernatural abilities, perhaps a divine-focused class and a mageslayer/spellthief of some sort.

Ziegander
2013-10-06, 05:31 PM
As for making multiple classes [...] So you can just do the same thing: take healing off the main combat guy's list and put it on another guy's list with some Sherlock level deduction Deeds, then make a third guy with pets/shapeshifting and a more restricted Deed list.

Absolutely, and along the lines of what I was thinking.


First, you could grant delayed, imperfect, and indirect access to certain abilities for each class. For an example of what I mean, think of wizards and healing. A wizard can make a clone or get temp hp through necromancy, heal a bit of hp through transmutation (polymorph), or summon/call/charm monsters with more direct healing abilities but the actual ability of the wizard to heal is always pretty sub-par when compared to a cleric or druid.

But, yeah, I do feel that each separate tier 1 class in a system needs a set of relative deficiencies that it might be able to technically overcome but that a member of another class would really be good at.

Yep, those were also my thoughts on how to do it right.


As far as what different classes could exist, I'm thinking of one wilderness-focused class, one urbane-focused class, and one battlefield-focused class. If you are willing to compliment deeds with supernatural abilities, perhaps a divine-focused class and a mageslayer/spellthief of some sort.

It's like you know me! The "Ranger" would be my pick as wilderness-focused, and The Bard or Expert or Rogue would be the "urbane" class. I do worry that "battlefield-focused" is indeed too focused to offer a wide-enough spectrum of conceptual space to facilitate the design of a Tier 1 power list. Suggestions?

Realms of Chaos
2013-10-06, 06:20 PM
I do worry that "battlefield-focused" is indeed too focused to offer a wide-enough spectrum of conceptual space to facilitate the design of a Tier 1 power list. Suggestions?

Quite to the contrary, I'm viewing the battlefield-focus as being the generalist of the three (or something close). All three classes will have some amount of offense just to be relevant but the battlefield class will get a wide swath of offense plus some delayed and/or weakened utility both urbane and wild.

Think of those fighter fixes you've made where a fighter could enlist soldiers into his forces and perform other such broad acts. :smallwink:

Ziegander
2013-10-06, 08:53 PM
Quite to the contrary, I'm viewing the battlefield-focus as being the generalist of the three (or something close). All three classes will have some amount of offense just to be relevant but the battlefield class will get a wide swath of offense plus some delayed and/or weakened utility both urbane and wild.

Well, it is important to remember that, while they each occupy their own niche of conceptual and design space, part of the challenge, part of what makes Tier 1s what they are, is they are all generalists to some rather large degree. So, sure, the battlefield-focused guy can have some delayed and/or weakened utility in both urban/wild, but by that same token, the Urbane gets delayed weakened utility in both the battlefield and wild, while the wilderness guy gets delayed/weakened utility in both the battlefield and urban settings.

EDIT: But almost just as important to remember is that "delayed/weakened" in this context doesn't mean what it would if we were talking about Tier 3s. A Cleric might not have as much obvious blasting power as a Wizard, for example, but the options it does have are still quite powerful.


Think of those fighter fixes you've made where a fighter could enlist soldiers into his forces and perform other such broad acts. :smallwink:

Yes, but, really, this needs to be tackled as, almost, a completely separate project. While those were exercises in trying to pound the game mechanics into submission to produce a fighter-themed, omni-mundane, Tier 1 class, this is a different animal altogether.

Morph Bark
2013-10-07, 07:28 AM
Aren't Combat Lord and Combat Prince the exact same thing the way they work? :smallconfused:

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-07, 08:07 AM
Aren't Combat Lord and Combat Prince the exact same thing the way they work? :smallconfused:
...no, not at all... a Myth does not make mistakes... <shifty eyes>

Ziegander
2013-10-07, 11:01 AM
Would you prefer that I start a new thread to discuss a new group of Tier 1 mundane classes?

Douglas
2013-10-07, 11:36 AM
With what you've got so far, I think this is a very strong tier 3. It is an extremely powerful combat monster, but that alone is never sufficient for tier 2.

To break into tier 2 and above, you need a lot more non-combat utility, with some outright campaign-breaking potential. You have a few deeds that help along these lines, but not enough.

To reach tier 1, you further need the ability to, on short notice, acquire the deed necessary to do the specific campaign breaking you want. 3 weeks, plus more if you still need the lower ranking versions, to learn a new mythic deed is far too long to satisfy tier 1's turnaround time on switching to different game-breaking modes.

Morph Bark
2013-10-07, 01:42 PM
Would you prefer that I start a new thread to discuss a new group of Tier 1 mundane classes?

I await it eagerly.


With what you've got so far, I think this is a very strong tier 3. It is an extremely powerful combat monster, but that alone is never sufficient for tier 2.

To break into tier 2 and above, you need a lot more non-combat utility, with some outright campaign-breaking potential. You have a few deeds that help along these lines, but not enough.

To reach tier 1, you further need the ability to, on short notice, acquire the deed necessary to do the specific campaign breaking you want. 3 weeks, plus more if you still need the lower ranking versions, to learn a new mythic deed is far too long to satisfy tier 1's turnaround time on switching to different game-breaking modes.

This is certainly true. To be Tier 1, it will either need to be capable of switching things per day to suit the encounters ahead (and know what lies ahead, so Knowledge/Gather Information instead of divination, or perhaps acquire clues during dreams, as dreaming is a natural ability) or have it all at once. 20 Deeds is mighty good (though I'd suggest starting with 2 rather than 1, making the end count 21), but probably not enough for Tier 1 unless they're all slowly gaining in "brokenness" over the course of the class.

Also, "You must learn the lower-level versions of a Deed before you can learn the higher level ones"? Get rid of that. Make the new level instantly acquired at levels 7 and 14 if you really want to lift this baby up higher than Tier 3, instead of making it suffer from potentially poor player planning.

Yakk
2013-10-07, 04:05 PM
I'd also think about making the Deed tiers be level 1/6/12/18.

That opens you up to getting ridiculous epic-level deeds on par with (say) time stop and wish.

A fast reaction that starts with a dodge (spend a point to get +10 bonus to your AC?), nullifies surprise (spend a deed to not be surprised), proceeds through to insane initiative (+100 initiative? Auto-win initiative? Gain a surprise round if you win initiative natively? Sure!) and extra turns per round at level 18 (which is on par with time stop).

Just to Browse
2013-10-07, 07:15 PM
He appears to not have a means of sustained flight (and no, jumping does not cover that) and no long range attacks. It also looks like he's still getting screwed by BFC-style terrain disruption and walls.

All of his cool abilities (Combat Prince, Accurate Strike, Mythic Action, Combat King, I Am Who I Am, Unstoppable Hero) need to come sooner. Seriously, reducing CC to one round is not a thing I care about when 1 round is all it takes to cast time stop and conjure enough iron to turn someone into red mist or seal them in rock.

Ziegander
2013-10-07, 11:10 PM
I await it eagerly.

On the way. :smallamused:

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-08, 11:35 AM
To reach tier 1, you further need the ability to, on short notice, acquire the deed necessary to do the specific campaign breaking you want. 3 weeks, plus more if you still need the lower ranking versions, to learn a new mythic deed is far too long to satisfy tier 1's turnaround time on switching to different game-breaking modes.
On the other hand, once you have learned a Deed, you can use it on a moment's notice. I feel like "can eventually learn all deeds" is pretty on-par with "can pick from all spells."


He appears to not have a means of sustained flight (and no, jumping does not cover that) and no long range attacks. It also looks like he's still getting screwed by BFC-style terrain disruption and walls.
Sustained flight is both almost impossible to fluff as mundane-- however over-the-top-- and isn't difficult to get through other means. The biggest issues of not having it is being screwed over by flying enemies and terrain obstacles like giant canyons, and leaping does do a lot to cover those. Walls can be leaped over, no problem.


All of his cool abilities (Combat Prince, Accurate Strike, Mythic Action, Combat King, I Am Who I Am, Unstoppable Hero) need to come sooner. Seriously, reducing CC to one round is not a thing I care about when 1 round is all it takes to cast time stop and conjure enough iron to turn someone into red mist or seal them in rock.
CC?

Also, more Deeds on the way soon. The list of things in the works (ie, at least one tier written) includes: Cut (chop down walls! Through planes!), Thrust (pin incorporeal creatures to reality!), Throw (throw your weapon! Hurl enemies into the next kingdom!), Mobility, Perception, Strength (win ALL the grapples! dig ALL the rivers!), Speed, and Inspiration.

ShadowFireLance
2013-10-08, 11:39 AM
CC?

Crowd Control.

This is actually pretty cool, I like it

Just to Browse
2013-10-08, 03:40 PM
Well either you find a way to fluff flight as mundane or you've lost the Tier 1 mundane challenge. The breadth of enemies that use 'flight and kite' as a capability makes the Myth fall flat.

Flight covers three things:
Win the kiting game.
Get across big pits
Get through areas surrounded by danger (like person-sized hole in a wall of fire)


If you gave it anti-flight abilities and allowed the Myth to map his jumps (so his height wasn't correlated to distance like a normal jump) then he could probably keep up.

ben-zayb
2013-10-08, 08:15 PM
Sustained flight is both almost impossible to fluff as mundane-- however over-the-top-- and isn't difficult to get through other means. The biggest issues of not having it is being screwed over by flying enemies and terrain obstacles like giant canyons, and leaping does do a lot to cover those. Walls can be leaped over, no problem.

Balancing on Air is a mundane epic skill check. I'm sure the fluff for at least having some awesome footing-establishment, or stepping on air can be made with the same logic. :smallwink:

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-08, 10:56 PM
Added eight complete new deeds and one fragment of one: Comprehension, Cut, Mobility, Perception, Speed, Strength, Throw, and Thrust. A bit more out-of-combat stuff this time-- more to come in future updates. I also updated Leaping a bit to better fit your criterion, Just to Browse. (Also, Mythic Mobility will totally let you hit those epic Balance checks, though that'll only get you clouds)

EDIT: also considering tweaking the Deeds known thing a bit. What if we had a limited number of unique Deeds per day, sort of like the Erudite? Say, only Charisma Mod different Deeds per day-- any more, and the universe/narrative power starts to go all "WTF, mate?" (obviously, I'd ditch the different-levels-count-as-different-Deeds thing if I did this). I kind of like the idea, but it also sort of stretches the fluff, such as it is...

Morph Bark
2013-10-09, 01:52 AM
EDIT: also considering tweaking the Deeds known thing a bit. What if we had a limited number of unique Deeds per day, sort of like the Erudite? Say, only Charisma Mod different Deeds per day-- any more, and the universe/narrative power starts to go all "WTF, mate?" (obviously, I'd ditch the different-levels-count-as-different-Deeds thing if I did this). I kind of like the idea, but it also sort of stretches the fluff, such as it is...

I think it sounds good. Also, rather than the universe/narrative force going "WTF", it could simply be that even the Myth's epic body and mind couldn't take the strain of doing a lot of different things so quickly in succession.

Making it Charisma mod related sounds good, but maybe with a slight increase in the amount every few levels? (Or simply increase Cha by 2 every few levels.) Like, every 5?

Fizban
2013-10-09, 07:04 PM
Something I didn't notice when I posted before was the "must learn lower version before the higher." That definitely needs to go if you want full tier 1: no tier 1 that I know of has that restriction. While the low level deeds scale well enough to compare or outshine psionic powers, having the spend limited known slots on low level versions you don't want is against the tier 1 creed.

I'd support a "unique deeds per day," but I wouldn't tie it to an ability score. Too easy for it to be low or exceedingly high. Just make it a fixed progression like the erudite did.

Milo v3
2013-10-09, 07:18 PM
Something I didn't notice when I posted before was the "must learn lower version before the higher." That definitely needs to go if you want full tier 1: no tier 1 that I know of has that restriction. While the low level deeds scale well enough to compare or outshine psionic powers, having the spend limited known slots on low level versions you don't want is against the tier 1 creed.

I'd support a "unique deeds per day," but I wouldn't tie it to an ability score. Too easy for it to be low or exceedingly high. Just make it a fixed progression like the erudite did.

Just a minor thing. There is no limited known slots.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-09, 09:39 PM
Just a minor thing. There is no limited known slots.
A fairly major thing, really. It's the difference between the wizard and the sorcerer.

EDIT:
I'd support a "unique deeds per day," but I wouldn't tie it to an ability score. Too easy for it to be low or exceedingly high. Just make it a fixed progression like the erudite did.
To be fair, thanks to Heroic Competence, the class is borderline SAD for Charisma-- your score will be high.




How do we feel about, oh, 1/4 level + Charisma modifier unique deeds/day, minimum 1?

EDIT 2: Added a Crafting deed-- fast crafting (with no tools), magic crafting, instant crafting (with no materials, potentially)

Fizban
2013-10-10, 01:15 AM
There are limited known slots when you don't have weeks to learn more, but I think I'd get farther sticking with the Eruidite comparison: Erudites don't have to learn powers in sequence after all. Hadn't noticed how SAD the class had got but I still dislike having "balancing" limits based on something you can increase. It's just too easy to combo one ability score into ridiculous. harrumph

unbeliever536
2013-10-10, 03:04 PM
Legendary Cut should probably note that full attack cuts stack their thickness (presumably this is the intent, otherwise what's the point of using it on a full attack?)

Mythic Cut should have a duration for the long slice, even if it's days per myth level. I'm pretty sure casters don't have a way to create permanent portals between planes. (cue 5 citations to the contrary...)

When you land after Mythic Leaping, can you choose to break through the floor, or does it just happen automatically if you deal enough damage?

Heroic Perception talks about your Legend level.

How does Legendary Strength work? Say a medium myth is attempting to trip a huge foe: does the myth gain the benifits of being huge, then a +2 bonus for being two sizes smaller? Or does he just get the +2 bonus? Is that bonus only for tripping/bull rushing smaller foes?

I love how open-ended Mythic Strength is.

How do bounces from the ranged version of Heroic Throwing interact with ranged increments? Do they measure from the bounce or the Myth?

Does teleporting out of a Mythic Throw require concentration?

Edit: In my head, Mythic Crafting works by creating a forge hot enough for fusion (thus allowing atomic-level material synthesis).

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-10, 03:54 PM
Legendary Cut should probably note that full attack cuts stack their thickness (presumably this is the intent, otherwise what's the point of using it on a full attack?)[QUOTE]
The idea is that you can make several cuts to hack a doorway into of a wall without having to pay for the Deed multiple times.

[QUOTE]Mythic Cut should have a duration for the long slice, even if it's days per myth level. I'm pretty sure casters don't have a way to create permanent portals between planes. (cue 5 citations to the contrary...)
Mmm. Yeah, probably.


When you land after Mythic Leaping, can you choose to break through the floor, or does it just happen automatically if you deal enough damage?
Good point-- I'll make a note about it.


Heroic Perception talks about your Legend level.
Yay copypasta!


How does Legendary Strength work? Say a medium myth is attempting to trip a huge foe: does the myth gain the benifits of being huge, then a +2 bonus for being two sizes smaller? Or does he just get the +2 bonus? Is that bonus only for tripping/bull rushing smaller foes?
The idea is that it puts the two of you on an equal footing. If you're medium (+0 size modifier) and he's huge (+8), then you'd get a +8 competence bonus. If he's large (+4) and you're small (-4), the bonus is the same (4-(-4)).


I love how open-ended Mythic Strength is.
Thanks!


How do bounces from the ranged version of Heroic Throwing interact with ranged increments? Do they measure from the bounce or the Myth?
Ooh, good catch. From the myth-- I'll note it.


Does teleporting out of a Mythic Throw require concentration?
You'd have to make a normal Concentration check, I suppose.



In other news, I sketched out another ~7 Deeds during class today. I'll write 'em up and post 'em when I have time.

Pangaea
2013-10-10, 09:50 PM
This class is seriously the greatest idea for a homebrew I have ever seen. Reading the description of the mythic leaping and mythic strength litterally brought a smile to my face. Keep up the good work.

Ps there is no plausable *cough* way to get mundane flight, so how about a Intercept Deed, that lets you tackle flying creature in mid air, or even jump between flying creatures as you kill them. Just an idea.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-10, 11:10 PM
This class is seriously the greatest idea for a homebrew I have ever seen. Reading the description of the mythic leaping and mythic strength litterally brought a smile to my face. Keep up the good work.
Aww, thanks! :smallredface:


Ps there is no plausable *cough* way to get mundane flight, so how about a Intercept Deed, that lets you tackle flying creature in mid air, or even jump between flying creatures as you kill them. Just an idea.
Those are... some quite awesome ideas. Yes. I like. Yes. In fact, added a bit of that to...

The newest set of deeds! Agility, Brawling, Charm, Grappling, Investigation, Knowledge, Precision, and Stealth. Highlights include doing the Sherlock Holmes thing, deduction-based postcognition, turning commoners into armies with inspiring speeches, and doing the Batman thing where you blink and he's practically teleported away.

EDIT: wait, crap. Mythic Charm should be Mythic Inspiration. Now I just need a Mythic Charm and a Legendary Inspiration. Doable.

EDIT EDIT: So. Idea. "Meta-Deed" feats. Yay or nay?

3WhiteFox3
2013-10-11, 09:06 AM
Aww, thanks! :smallredface:


Those are... some quite awesome ideas. Yes. I like. Yes. In fact, added a bit of that to...

The newest set of deeds! Agility, Brawling, Charm, Grappling, Investigation, Knowledge, Precision, and Stealth. Highlights include doing the Sherlock Holmes thing, deduction-based postcognition, turning commoners into armies with inspiring speeches, and doing the Batman thing where you blink and he's practically teleported away.

EDIT: wait, crap. Mythic Charm should be Mythic Inspiration. Now I just need a Mythic Charm and a Legendary Inspiration. Doable.

EDIT EDIT: So. Idea. "Meta-Deed" feats. Yay or nay?

Yay; casters have plenty of feats designed exclusively for them, and those feats are often much better than the equivalent melee feats. I think that The Myth should have powerful feat options as well.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-11, 11:24 PM
Officially changed over to a unique Deeds/day system, added an Interpose deed, and filled in Legendary Inspiration.

Clarkson
2013-10-13, 11:40 AM
One quick question. In the competence tree the final level says you may take 20 on a damage roll. Is this intentional?

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-13, 11:53 AM
One quick question. In the competence tree the final level says you may take 20 on a damage roll. Is this intentional?
No, it is not. Thank you.

Sho
2013-10-13, 05:48 PM
I feel it should have a good progression for its reflex save, and I agree with a fourth tier to grant early epic abilities, following the 1/6/12/18 or 1/6/11/16 route. It could be labelled thusly: Mortal, Heroic, Renown, and Mythical.

Here's a list as to what I would do and then put into graph form:

Unrelenting could be moved as early as 4th level.
I Am Who I Am could be moved to 8th level.
Hero's Luck needs to be put into the first post. Not everyone is going to look through the thread to see what it is, if it's posted. (I didn't look.)



{TABLE=HEAD]Class Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Mortal Deeds
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Uncanny Dodge
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|Armor Mastery
4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat, Relentless
5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|Adept of Combat
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+5|Heroic Deeds
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+5|Evasion
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat, True Unto the Myth
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|Plotted Deed
10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|Master of Combat
11th|
+11/+6/+6|
+7|
+7|
+7|Sublime Style
12th|
+12/+7/+7|
+8|
+8|
+8|Bonus Feat, Renown Deeds
13th|
+13/+8/+8|
+8|
+8|
+8|Mythic Action
14th|
+14/+9/+9|
+9|
+9|
+9|Mettle
15th|
+15/+10/+10|
+9|
+9|
+9|Lord of Combat
16th|
+16/+11/+11/+11|
+10|
+10|
+10|Bonus Feat
17th|
+17/+12/+12/+12|
+10|
+10|
+10|"?" (Hero's Luck)
18th|
+18/+13/+13/+13|
+11|
+11|
+11|Mythical Deeds
19th|
+19/+14/+14/+14|
+11|
+11|
+11|"?"
20th|
+20/+15/+15/+15|
+12|
+12|
+12|Bonus Feat, Eternal Myth[/TABLE]

Some features have been renamed to suit a fancy:

The Combat Line (Prince, Lord, King) have been renamed (Adept, Master, Lord).
Strategic Mind is now Plotted Deed; It suits a connection to fairy-tale-like elements, concerning a great act being "plotted out" or "made a plot".
Unrelenting is now Relentless
I Am Who I Am is now True Unto the Myth.
Accurate Strikes is now Sublime Style.
Eternal Champion is now Eternal Myth.
Mettle has been moved, and Evasion has been added to suit the increased reflex save progression.


Take it how you wish.

ben-zayb
2013-10-13, 10:56 PM
I feel it should have a good progression for its reflex save, and I agree with a fourth tier to grant early epic abilities, following the 1/6/12/18 or 1/6/11/16 route. It could be labelled thusly: Mortal, Heroic, Renown, and Mythical.

I fail to see the logic, from a mechanical perspective, for having a Nigh-perfect chassis for a Tier 1 Class. Even the cleric (a T1 with nearly no class features) and the druid only had two good saves and average BAB.

I'm afraid this class is slowly heading down the "I am the only class you'll ever need, the perfect class", instead of the "I can still be a big badass that goes toe to toe with magical opponents despite being mundane" direction.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-13, 11:31 PM
I'm afraid this class is slowly heading down the "I am the only class you'll ever need, the perfect class", instead of the "I can still be a big badass that goes toe to toe with magical opponents despite being mundane" direction.
That's... kind of the point of a T1 class. They can do everything, and do it well. A wizard will do everything in a slightly different way than a cleric will, who will play somewhat differently than a StP Erudite, but... I set out to make a T1. If he can't do everything at least moderately well, I failed.

Good Reflex is a no, though

As for the "make a new tier of Deeds"... well, I'm reluctant for a few reasons.

Firstly, that's a fairly major work commitment, and I already strained to get some of the Deeds as high as I did. For a lot of them, I'm really not sure where to go and still have them be "balanced." (Total magic immunity? Auto-succeed/crit?)
Secondly, the three levels of Deed were sort of supposed to correspond to the three "tiers" of magic power, as I saw 'em: strong-but-balanced, dominating, and world-breaking. Each matches up to about three spell levels.


@Sho: thanks for catching the lack of Hero's Luck. I Am Who I Am could probably come earlier, but it was largely a "fill in a dead level" ability. I don't know what you mean by Unrelenting.

ben-zayb
2013-10-14, 09:32 AM
That's... kind of the point of a T1 class. They can do everything, and do it well. A wizard will do everything in a slightly different way than a cleric will, who will play somewhat differently than a StP Erudite, but... I set out to make a T1. If he can't do everything at least moderately well, I failed.
Oh, yeah I get that. I actually liked everything so far with the current Deeds, and I'm all for flexibility. I'm just saying I don't see the point in giving a T1 class the perfect chassis with the addition of Good Reflex save, but you already addressed that.:smallsmile:

I'm curious as to why some of the really awesome deeds from the Legend aren't ported (yet?) for the Myth. If it's just about grouping it to a new scaling set of other deed abilities, I suppose I could try helping.:smallamused:

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-14, 11:37 AM
I'm curious as to why some of the really awesome deeds from the Legend aren't ported (yet?) for the Myth. If it's just about grouping it to a new scaling set of other deed abilities, I suppose I could try helping.:smallamused:
What kinds of things are you thinking of?

Morph Bark
2013-10-17, 08:05 AM
Say Grod, when you feel you're done with the class, could you drop me a line in the Homebrew Tier Compendium? I'd love to Tier the Tier 1 Mundanes that are being worked on currently, and I'd prefer to do so when the creators feel they're actually done, to Tier them at their full extent. :smallsmile:

ben-zayb
2013-10-17, 10:03 PM
What kinds of things are you thinking of?

What I meant was that you had other great concepts, such as the Skill over Size myth, which has a capstone that enables Pixies to trip-lock Tarrasques. So translating it into a Myth Deed would be something like

Heroic
You may activate this deed as a free action when making an opposed check, an opposed skill check, or an attack roll. You may ignore up to one size category worth of bonus from your opponent, plus one more size category per five Myth levels, for that particular roll. If you succeed on that roll, you may continue ignoring the same amount of size category's worth of bonus against that same type of roll (i.e. to grapple checks, on a successful grapple roll) on that particular opponent for the rest of the encounter.

Legendary
For one minute, you may treat yourself as though you were of a specific Size, for the purposes of gaining both the benefits and penalties associated with two of these options (chosen by you):
reach
unarmed strikes and natural weapon damage
numerical modifiers (attack, AC, combat maneuvers, skills, etc.)
combat maneuver restrictions (grapple, bull-rush, etc.)
special abilities size restriction (Swallow Whole, Crush, etc.)
movement and occupation of spaces (squares)

The chosen Size may be up to one size category smaller or larger per four Myth levels from your regular size (to a minimum of Fine and a maximum of Colossal). Any size bonuses, penalties, benefits, or restrictions from your normal size is temporarily ignored.

Alternatively, you may use Heroic Skill over Size such that on a successful roll, you begin ignoring the determined amount of size bonus for the same type of roll from everyone for the rest of the encounter. On a failed roll, you still begin ignoring the determined amount of size bonus for the same type of roll from your opponent for the rest of the encounter.

Mythic
For one minute, you may treat yourself as though you were of a specific Size, for the purposes of gaining all the benefits (but not the penalties) associated with all of those options enumerated in Legendary Skill over Size. The chosen Size may be up to one size category smaller or larger per four Myth levels from your regular size (to a minimum of Fine and a maximum of Colossal). Any size bonuses and benefits your normal size is temporarily ignored.

Alternatively, you may use Heroic Skill over Size such that the amount you ignore is the opponent's size bonus minus your own size bonus. On a successful roll, you begin ignoring that same amount of size bonus for all those types of roll from everyone for the rest of encounter. On a failed roll, you still begin ignoring the same amount of size bonus for the same type of roll from everyone for the rest of encounter.

Alternatively, you may use Legendary Skill over Size such that it lasts ten minutes per Myth level, and that you may choose three instead of two options. Furthermore, once per round as a free action, you may change your choice of Options (for benefits and penalties) and Size.
I'm not really that good with wording but the idea is like that. You might also want to adjust the balance if you feel it's too strong or to weak.

Basically, the point is that there are Legend's Deeds that can be expanded on.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-17, 10:09 PM
What I meant was that you had other great concepts, such as the Skill over Size myth
See: Legendary Strength.

I did mine a whole bunch of stuff from him, and a lot of what I didn't take didn't really fit nicely into the three-level format I've been using. Still, I'll take another look back and see if there's anything cool I missed.

@Morph Bark: It's kind of hard to say what "done" is. I think everything that's left is writing more Deeds, but that's kind of a never-ending process.

ben-zayb
2013-10-17, 10:17 PM
See: Legendary Strength.

I did mine a whole bunch of stuff from him, and a lot of what I didn't take didn't really fit nicely into the three-level format I've been using. Still, I'll take another look back and see if there's anything cool I missed.

Must have missed that. Carry on then.

Fiery Diamond
2013-10-17, 10:37 PM
It gets worse. I would also say that an effective high level character cannot be entirely mundane. There needs to be some sort of phlebotinum that is the source of its power. Ki energy, or access to the akashic record, or latent psychic ability, or divine blood, or exposure to magic radiation or something. It is just too hard to suspend disbelief otherwise. But if such power sources mean that the character is no longer mundane (as I use the word, anyway).



For you, maybe. Realize that leaping a mountain in a single bound just because you're that awesome is "mundane" in the sense that people playing D&D use the term, and that this is exactly what's trying to be achieved. It's a good thing.

Porthos
2013-10-17, 11:39 PM
On the whole Mundane/Not Mundane thing, I'd point out the characters in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (and, of course, all of the similar wire fu stories that can be found in Asian media) were all but flying. They were also very mundane, IMO. As D&D uses the term, at least.

There were no powerups. No meditation/Let's Get Dangerous moments. No wavy sources of power. Just people who had refined their martial arts styles to such a degree that they were all but flying.

So it's not as if we have to look hard for examples in storytelling for this sort of thing.

Morph Bark
2013-10-18, 03:59 AM
@Morph Bark: It's kind of hard to say what "done" is. I think everything that's left is writing more Deeds, but that's kind of a never-ending process.

I figured, hence the "when you feel". You may also just drop me a line when you think you're not going to further work on it anymore and/or it's reached a point where it could possibly be considered Tier 1. :smalltongue:

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-18, 03:12 PM
I figured, hence the "when you feel". You may also just drop me a line when you think you're not going to further work on it anymore and/or it's reached a point where it could possibly be considered Tier 1. :smalltongue:
mmm.

One last check, then: Playground, what's missing?

toapat
2013-10-18, 09:43 PM
mmm.

One last check, then: Playground, what's missing?

just checking to see if this is in here, i posted it in Zeigander's


Unstoppable Determination
Impossible deed

Effect: As long as you are performing this deed by having action points invested in it, you may take a full round worth of actions while below 1 hp. You do not die for reaching -10 hp, nor do you bleed for 1 point of hp whenever you take an action while at negative hp.

While below -10 HP, once per round, you must make a DC 10 fortitude save or you stop maintaining this deed. For every 10 points of HP below -10, the save DC increases by +1. You do not automatically fail this save by rolling a 1. If you fail the save, you stop maintaining this deed and die.


Formatting to be adjusted.

ben-zayb
2013-10-19, 09:17 AM
mmm.

One last check, then: Playground, what's missing?

I'm not sure how you're going to fit some of these in Deed forms, but off the top of my head there's a lack in general scry and die (Knowledge is sort of just like Metafaculty), terrain manipulation, "summoning"/"calling" versatility, dungeon-skipping teleportation, offensive buffs, and distraction/misdirection for the party

Nonetheless, this is a very, very powerful Tier 3. Maybe with some more deeds that cover those stuff above will bump this directly to Tier 1.

Lastly, no non-Deed counter for Deeds for balance purposes yet... Even the poorly designed monk has SR defense against many spells. And unlike maneuvers, which are barely comparable in terms of power to the top spells, deeds really carry quite a punch.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-19, 09:57 AM
I'm not sure how you're going to fit some of these in Deed forms, but off the top of my head there's a lack in general scry and die (Knowledge is sort of just like Metafaculty), terrain manipulation, "summoning"/"calling" versatility, dungeon-skipping teleportation, offensive buffs, and distraction/misdirection for the party

Nonetheless, this is a very, very powerful Tier 3. Maybe with some more deeds that cover those stuff above will bump this directly to Tier 1.

Lastly, no non-Deed counter for Deeds for balance purposes yet... Even the poorly designed monk has SR defense against many spells. And unlike maneuvers, which are barely comparable in terms of power to the top spells, deeds really carry quite a punch.
Hmm... <cracks knuckles> let's see what we can do.

infinitetech
2014-10-09, 12:42 AM
this will be a great resource for quick one-shots haha (gesalt with other classes=woot woot) or as a bbg class/gestalt to make things tougher