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AttilaTheGeek
2013-10-07, 04:35 PM
You know what's cool? Time magic. Ever seen Madoka Magica, played Braid, or read Homestuck? Pausing time, parallel selves, and stable time loops are all fascinatingly deep mechanics that can't be explored otherwise.

But time mechanics are also difficult to design. Celerity and Time Stop are just basic time manipulation, but they are used to set up nearly unstoppable spell combos.

I'm thinking of building a class that centers around time manipulation in combat. To avoid the balance problems that would come from the combination of time magic and other spells, it would be mostly martial with time-based spell-like abilities.

Do you think the class I'm proposing is feasible? If so, what are time-based mechanics that you think could fit into a 3.P game? The primary mechanics will be stable time loops (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StableTimeLoop) and pausing, and so I'm also looking for preliminary feedback on those.

ArcturusV
2013-10-07, 05:18 PM
Well... the first thing that jumps to mind, and the reason why Celerity and Time Stop work so well is that they're front loaded. They have drawbacks that don't appear until after you accomplish what you already accomplished. Which on a mage powerful enough to cast them is "I win the day"... making penalties like Exhaustion (even if you're not immune for some reason) pointless.

To quote myself when players ask about Flaws: "It's not a flaw if it has no impact at all on the character".

So your Time Based character needs to have the costs front loaded for end loaded effects. Thus something like losing a turn in order to get an extra action next turn. Or making an "attack" now that has no effect until it's later triggered.

Sadly that sort of thing doesn't seem to jive with the Stable Time Loops and Pausing that you want.

The only way I could think of making Pausing legit is to make it total. Thus your Time Fighter will have an ability like:

Stasis Field (Su): The Time Fighter may lock the area around him in stasis with a standard action. This ability is centered on the Time Fighter and extends in 20 feet in all directions. Creatures and objects effected by Stasis Field are time locked. They cannot take any actions (Even free actions), and are not aware of their surroundings. Spells and attacks cast into the Stasis Field are Time Locked as well, as are any creatures which are hapless enough to walk into it. It is impossible to inflict damage, conditions, or otherwise effect targets in the stasis field. The Time Fighter himself is locked while using this ability in his own Stasis Field. The stasis field lasts for Con Modifier Rounds (Minimum 1). When the Stasis Field ends, all creatures resume their previous actions (If interrupted by a Stasis Field), and any attacks/spells launched into the Stasis Field go off.

Zaydos
2013-10-07, 05:37 PM
I think it can be done, you just have to decide exactly what you want to do with it. With Time Stop style pausing you can't really make attacks unless they have a delayed effect (like Homura's bombs) though you could possibly write an ability something like...

Temporal Blink: 1/encounter you may freeze time for a matter of moments as a swift action. Until the end of your current turn time is frozen for all creatures except you. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. You may end this time freeze as part of an attack, if you do so the target is denied their Dexterity bonus as they have no time in which to react.

Or something.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-10-07, 06:45 PM
Stasis Field (Su): The Time Fighter may lock the area around him in stasis with a standard action. This ability is centered on the Time Fighter and extends in 20 feet in all directions. Creatures and objects effected by Stasis Field are time locked. They cannot take any actions (Even free actions), and are not aware of their surroundings. Spells and attacks cast into the Stasis Field are Time Locked as well, as are any creatures which are hapless enough to walk into it. It is impossible to inflict damage, conditions, or otherwise effect targets in the stasis field. The Time Fighter himself is locked while using this ability in his own Stasis Field. The stasis field lasts for Con Modifier Rounds (Minimum 1). When the Stasis Field ends, all creatures resume their previous actions (If interrupted by a Stasis Field), and any attacks/spells launched into the Stasis Field go off.

Good idea! I've incorporated it down below.


I think it can be done, you just have to decide exactly what you want to do with it. With Time Stop style pausing you can't really make attacks unless they have a delayed effect (like Homura's bombs) though you could possibly write an ability something like...

Temporal Blink: snip

Or something.
That's been incorporated too. This is a first draft of some supernatural abilities I'm considering. All the numbers are replaced with X because I want to focus on the mechanics themselves, and numbers can be adjusted later. PEACH, please! And thanks for the feedback you've already written :smallsmile: I realize this won't be an easy homebrew project, but I think I can make it work.

Moments: A chronomancer has a pool of moments equal to [maybe chronomancer level plus Intelligence modifier, or 1/2 * level * intelligence modifier], which she uses to fuel her time manipulation powers. Once each day, she can spend one hour re-attuning herself to the flow of time to completely restore her moments. Each of her powers has a moment cost that must be paid to use the power.

Pause: Pausing time is the most basic of the chronomancer's powers. At 1st level, by spending one moment as a swift action, a chronomancer can stop time until the end of her turn for every object and creature except themselves. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to the chronomancer's attacks and spells and cannot be targeted. Other creatures or objects cannot move or take any actions, even free actions. The chronomancer is still harmed by normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and other environmental hazards. When the time stop ends, everything continues as if it had not stopped at all. Projectiles resume motion, spell duration continues to decrease, and other creatures do not perceive the time stop in any way; a chronomancer who pauses time, moves, and resumes time appears to have teleported.

A chronomancer can unpause time as part of an attack. If she does so, the target is denied their Dexterity bonus to AC because they have no time to react to the attack.

Extended Pause: [needs rename] At Xth level, as a full-round action, a chronomancer can pause time for an extended duration. She can choose to pause time for any number of rounds up to half her Intelligence modifier. Doing so requires spending a number of moments equal to three times the number of rounds to pause. [reword] [I'm also considering some prohibition against casting spells under the extended pause, just for balance, but it would read awkwardly because the class

Loop: At Xth level, a chronomancer discovers one of the most advanced temporal powers- the stable time loop. [I haven't written it yet, but basically you go back in time to aid yourself in battle].

Rewind: At Xth level, a chronomancer can lock herself in time, and return to that time and condition later. By spending X moments as a move action, she can "save" her position and status. "Status" includes hit points, condition, and any magical effects affecting the chronomancer [reword]. After that, for a number of rounds equal to [half?] her Intelligence modifier, she can spend a standard action [and an additional X moments?] to return to that position and status.

Stasis: At Xth level, a chronomancer can put herself and one other creature into a temporal stasis. By spending X moments as a standard action, she can pause time for herself and a creature she is touching for a number of rounds up to twice her intelligence modifier.

Bubble: At Xth level, a chronomancer learns to extend her stasis to an area. Instead of only pausing time for herself and one target, she can pause time for all objects and creatures in a radius around her. Doing so costs [constant value] moments per round of stasis per five feet of radius. [That is, some constant times number of rounds times five feet of radius].

Yitzi
2013-10-07, 07:54 PM
Well... the first thing that jumps to mind, and the reason why Celerity and Time Stop work so well is that they're front loaded. They have drawbacks that don't appear until after you accomplish what you already accomplished. Which on a mage powerful enough to cast them is "I win the day"... making penalties like Exhaustion (even if you're not immune for some reason) pointless.

That is because they not only have front-loaded effects and end-loaded costs, but also have "time to win the fight" shorter than the time between the front and the end.

A character with front-loaded effects and end-loaded costs can work, if it's not an offensive powerhouse as well.

ArcturusV
2013-10-07, 09:52 PM
Takin' a shot at a Stable Time Loop idea(s):

So as something like a 10th level ability...
Future Perfect (Su): Once per day the Chronomancer may user their mastery of time to intercede in their own past. A Chronomancer choosing to use this ability pulls a level 20th version of the Chronomancer (Use standard WBL and progression as the Chronomancer intends to progress, ideally stated out before you ever get to the table of course, once a Future Perfect version of the Chronomancer is made, it cannot be changed by any method, and the character is forced to progress in that manner) into their moment in time within 15' of the Chronomancer. The Future version of the Chronomancer remains in the present time frame for Int Modifier + Wisdom Modifier rounds. During that time the Future Perfect Chronomancer may use any of his/her abilities and items to aid the Chronomancer (excluding giving the Chronomancer Items). Any abilities that the Future Perfect Chronomancer uses in the presence of the Present Chronomancer may be used by the Present Chronomancer as if he had that ability, at the Future Chronomancer's level and bonuses, as long as the Future Perfect Chronomancer is there.
When a Chronomancer reaches level 20, they must go back in time to each moment that Future Perfect was used, consecutively, with no pause or rest between encounters.

... the whole implication of that ability kinda makes my head hurt. Which tells me it's probably decent "Time Travel" jargon. :smallbiggrin: And an interesting sort of idea.

Time Egg (Su): The Chronomancer may use their mastery of time to send themselves an item from the future. This may be a single magical or mundane non-artifact item up to (Cronomancer Level x Int Mod x 100) GP value. This item MUST be attained by some method before the Chronomancer reaches the next level, and maintain the possession of it in working order, so you cannot drain all the charges out of a magic item with charges, in order to send it back to the past when he levels up. If the Chronomancer cannot he suffers a cumulative 1 point of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma Damage per day, which cannot be restored by any means, until he does so as the Paradox drives him insane.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-10-08, 05:13 AM
Oh, right, I forgot to say: "chronomancer" is only a temporary name. There have been way too many chronomancers; I'm considering Temporalist instead.


Takin' a shot at a Stable Time Loop idea(s):

So as something like a 10th level ability...
Future Perfect (Su): Once per day the Chronomancer may user their mastery of time to intercede in their own past. A Chronomancer choosing to use this ability pulls a level 20th version of the Chronomancer (Use standard WBL and progression as the Chronomancer intends to progress, ideally stated out before you ever get to the table of course, once a Future Perfect version of the Chronomancer is made, it cannot be changed by any method, and the character is forced to progress in that manner) into their moment in time within 15' of the Chronomancer. The Future version of the Chronomancer remains in the present time frame for Int Modifier + Wisdom Modifier rounds. During that time the Future Perfect Chronomancer may use any of his/her abilities and items to aid the Chronomancer (excluding giving the Chronomancer Items). Any abilities that the Future Perfect Chronomancer uses in the presence of the Present Chronomancer may be used by the Present Chronomancer as if he had that ability, at the Future Chronomancer's level and bonuses, as long as the Future Perfect Chronomancer is there.
When a Chronomancer reaches level 20, they must go back in time to each moment that Future Perfect was used, consecutively, with no pause or rest between encounters.

... the whole implication of that ability kinda makes my head hurt. Which tells me it's probably decent "Time Travel" jargon. :smallbiggrin: And an interesting sort of idea.

I think I can make it a little simpler without compromising any of its effectiveness by limiting it to two to four rounds and making the player jump back right after. How's this for preliminary wording, originally taken from a spell I wrote to a similar effect?


Temporal Loop: This spell tears the fabric of time itself, calling your own self from the near future to aid you. Throughout this spell's text, the summoned version of yourself is referred to as a duplicate for clarity, but it is a future version of yourself. The duplicate appears anywhere within close range and acts on your initiative count. It can take a full round of actions immediately after it arrives and is under the control of this spell's caster's player.

When the duplicate casts spells, they are expended just as if you had cast them. Keep track of only what spells have been cast, not by whom they were cast. Spell slots expended by the duplicate are not regained after the spell's duration.

If the duplicate takes damage, keep track of it but do not lose that many hit points.

At the end of the spell's 3-round duration, you must jump back in time to where you first summoned yourself. You go back in time three rounds and become the duplicate. Take damage equal to the total damage the duplicate took over the spell's duration. The time stream returns to normal, and you live on as the duplicate.


Time Egg (Su): The Chronomancer may use their mastery of time to send themselves an item from the future. This may be a single magical or mundane non-artifact item up to (Cronomancer Level x Int Mod x 100) GP value. This item MUST be attained by some method before the Chronomancer reaches the next level, and maintain the possession of it in working order, so you cannot drain all the charges out of a magic item with charges, in order to send it back to the past when he levels up. If the Chronomancer cannot he suffers a cumulative 1 point of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma Damage per day, which cannot be restored by any means, until he does so as the Paradox drives him insane.

Ooh, I like it. It means I need separate rules for Paradoxes, though. I'm thinking just INT damage, but 1 per hour, because Paradoxes should be really deadly. I say INT instead of WIS because it's the highest stat, so that should give the chronomancer/temporalist a little bit of time before they really start to suffer.

CombatOwl
2013-10-08, 05:39 AM
You know what's cool? Time magic. Ever seen Madoka Magica, played Braid, or read Homestuck? Pausing time, parallel selves, and stable time loops are all fascinatingly deep mechanics that can't be explored otherwise.

But time mechanics are also difficult to design. Celerity and Time Stop are just basic time manipulation, but they are used to set up nearly unstoppable spell combos.

I'm thinking of building a class that centers around time manipulation in combat. To avoid the balance problems that would come from the combination of time magic and other spells, it would be mostly martial with time-based spell-like abilities.

Do you think the class I'm proposing is feasible? If so, what are time-based mechanics that you think could fit into a 3.P game? The primary mechanics will be stable time loops (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StableTimeLoop) and pausing, and so I'm also looking for preliminary feedback on those.

You know, when I first saw the thread title, I thought this was doing to be a discussion by other people looking to tie mechanics into the actual time players take to figure out what they want a character to do...

The_Final_Stand
2013-10-08, 06:45 AM
One pause type ability I suggest would be to engage in Dio-esque (http://youtu.be/CamPXxfl7Lw) timestop shenanigans (pause time, make X ranged attacks or movements as appropriate, start time again, observe pincushion [road-roller not included]).

The issue I can think of with any hypothetical Summon Future Self ability is that the future self appears ignoring any debilitating effects that may or may not take place on the user in the intervening time. If the Temporalist or whatever gets hit with Hold Person before going back to become himself, the future self either gets retroactively Held (which is complicated to work out the effects of), or the act of calling them back would remove said effects (which renders certain types of attack irrelevant to the Temporalist).

Or, I guess you could call them from sufficiently far in the future that the effects are gone, but then they jump back forward at the end of the duration. Then, of course, the character has Plot Armour up to that later point, and it also ensures that they would eventually get over any long term damage if their future self doesn't have it.

Or, I guess you could say they can (or must) jump back as a free action prematurely as a reaction to incoming debilitating effects (most things that aren't pure damage, and have a longer duration than the time to jump back), which makes the ability even more powerful since it's a free "Dodge anything" card.

In short, great idea conceptually, nightmare to play with unless you actually are a time traveler.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-10-08, 07:28 AM
One pause type ability I suggest would be to engage in Dio-esque (http://youtu.be/CamPXxfl7Lw) timestop shenanigans (pause time, make X ranged attacks or movements as appropriate, start time again, observe pincushion [road-roller not included]).

Yes. I definitely look forward to the temporalist being able to do that.


The issue I can think of with any hypothetical Summon Future Self ability is that the future self appears ignoring any debilitating effects that may or may not take place on the user in the intervening time. If the Temporalist or whatever gets hit with Hold Person before going back to become himself, the future self either gets retroactively Held (which is complicated to work out the effects of), or the act of calling them back would remove said effects (which renders certain types of attack irrelevant to the Temporalist).

Or, I guess you could call them from sufficiently far in the future that the effects are gone, but then they jump back forward at the end of the duration. Then, of course, the character has Plot Armour up to that later point, and it also ensures that they would eventually get over any long term damage if their future self doesn't have it.

Or, I guess you could say they can (or must) jump back as a free action prematurely as a reaction to incoming debilitating effects (most things that aren't pure damage, and have a longer duration than the time to jump back), which makes the ability even more powerful since it's a free "Dodge anything" card.

I'm thinking about just saying "if you don't get over it by the time you would jump back, then that causes a Paradox, and paradoxes are bad". It's going to be difficult to stop a player from being able to create paradoxes without cutting this ability, and I really like this ability, so all I need to do is scare players away from creating paradoxes.


In short, great idea conceptually, nightmare to play with unless you actually are a time traveler.

:smallsigh: If I add in a clause that says "you take lots of INT damage whenever you create a paradox", do you think that would make it workable?

The_Final_Stand
2013-10-08, 07:40 AM
:smallsigh: If I add in a clause that says "you take lots of INT damage whenever you create a paradox", do you think that would make it workable?

Maybe. Depends how much they require INT. If that's their main stat that their abilities run off (Uses of ability = 3 + INT mod per day or something), then that could be a handy tool. Could be that causing a paradox, or too many of them (WIS mod?) robs them of certain time travel abilities for, say, 24 hours. I dunno. This is your class, and I'm mostly here cause I like stable time loops as a theme.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-10-08, 08:12 AM
I'm mostly here cause I like stable time loops as a theme.

So am I :smalltongue:

And the resources, called "moments", that the temporalist uses for their powers scale off INT.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-10-08, 11:23 AM
Two of those examples, you should note, use time travel and manipulation as a narrative conceit. Time travel creates connections, in a narrative way, between things that should not be connected.

D&D doesn't work like that; D&D is more like "fantasy physics". And that more closely hews to how Braid uses time travel: bits of physics that work in a particular way that you exploit to do the impossible.

Just realize that Braid does so within some very tight constraints, so that "exploiting time manipulation" doesn't do anything far beyond "I beat the level". There's also the problem that it's a game centered on the time-manipulating character, who would be overpowered next to the others.

ArcturusV
2013-10-08, 04:04 PM
The Paradoxical issues were one of the reasons why in Future Perfect I referenced a level 20 version of yourself. Either A) You're already level 20(+) and you're pulling your past self out of a time and place where it won't really impact you Paradoxically, or B) You're not yet level 20 and it's far enough into the future that any problems can be possibly restored by then.

I'm a bit worried about the time frame of the Paradoxes myself. Just something to be aware of. Say that... you're off on an Adventure, you use Time Egg... you suffer some misfortune, lose your item, have it sundered or something. You're weeks away from a town and possibly replacing it. You're dead. Well, effectively dead from 0/negative Int, and helpless, unable to ever fix it.

Which might be a balance point you want. It was just the reason I mentioned it on the days scale as, worse case scenario you might still be able to fix it with a few points of Int left, just barely above Drooling Animal before you get another version of the item.

Jormengand
2013-10-08, 04:16 PM
Maybe an ability which allows you to make all your attacks "delayed blast," for example you throw a knife and it stays in one location until it needs to fly off and hit something, or you swing your sword into an empty square, and someone who enters the square later is hit by it.

Maybe steal some things from time thief. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/time-thief)

Helping_Head
2013-10-09, 12:51 AM
I like that "delayed" idea. IT should be limited to a number of rounds = your level. Or INT mod.

It looks like the paradox thing hasn't been settled yet so I have a group of ideas for it.

What if paradoxes are just happen when ever you use your active abilities. But then due to the experience you have gained over learning and experimenting with time you subconsciously heal the damage done redirecting or healing the causality effects.

I suggest giving the class a Threshold that they can stand. Perhaps level + INT mod. Both can be increased throughout play.

Now the healing part can go a couple ways. Passive mending. "When ever you don't use an abillity that uses 'Moments' you paradoxes are reduced by one." This ability can be improved a few times later in the class.
OR
Perhaps the healing needs an Full round action to cleanse all(or a certain number)of the paradoxes
OR
A combination of the 2. Make the passive healing slower. 1 paradox/minute with the ability to concentrate and actively cleanse 5/round.

As to fearing the paradoxes. What if you take the mental damage for the amount of paradoxes that go over your Threshold? That means you can choose which would be more beneficial at the time. Keep using minor abilities to and slowly damage your Int. Or try to do some greater good in a crucial moment and suffer the huge drawback.

Zaydos
2013-10-09, 06:59 AM
A time loop ability I thought of is:

Free action,you create a duplicate of yourself which fights alongside you but lacks a swift action. Any effects active on you are active on the duplicate with 1 less round of duration. Any damage dealt/effects placed on you during this round apply to your duplicate as well.

At the start of your next turn the duplicate remains but you must spend a swift action to travel back in time 1 round.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-10-09, 10:04 AM
A time loop ability I thought of is:

Free action,you create a duplicate of yourself which fights alongside you but lacks a swift action. Any effects active on you are active on the duplicate with 1 less round of duration. Any damage dealt/effects placed on you during this round apply to your duplicate as well.

At the start of your next turn the duplicate remains but you must spend a swift action to travel back in time 1 round.

Something like that. The loop ability will definitely be the hardest to write.


I like that "delayed" idea. IT should be limited to a number of rounds = your level. Or INT mod.

I'm thinking half int mod, tops. It only really works with ranged attacks, but I don't want a temporalist to be able to pause time for two minutes, make 60 ranged attacks, and win fights before they start.


It looks like the paradox thing hasn't been settled yet so I have a group of ideas for it...

I don't want paradoxes to be a major component of gameplay; on the contrary, paradoxes are when you mess something up really badly. It's an interesting idea, but doesn't fit with what I'm going for.


Maybe an ability which allows you to make all your attacks "delayed blast," for example you throw a knife and it stays in one location until it needs to fly off and hit something,

That's the delayed idea that was proposed before. I can see there's a lot of support for it! I'll make sure it features prominently.


or you swing your sword into an empty square, and someone who enters the square later is hit by it.

I like that a lot. Or, better yet, someone who was there last round! That could get really complicated if it lasted more than one round, but I think being able to attack where someone was is really cool.


Maybe steal some things from time thief. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/time-thief)

Eh, I don't really like the time thief. It feels like a rogue with some small miscellaneous bonuses to rolls as its class features.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-10-09, 01:16 PM
New mechanics! I think this might be the last batch, then I'll work on distributing them across the levels and balancing Moment costs.

Temporal Mastery (Su): [needs rename] At 20th level, a temporalist attains ultimate mastery over the temporal flow. The temporalist sees the past, the present, and the future with every gaze. Any attacks the temporalist makes can strike an enemy passing through that space up to one minute in the future or one minute in the past, in addition to striking an enemy in the space in the present.

Pause: (updated!) Pausing time is the most basic of the temporalist's powers. At 1st level, by spending one moment as a swift action, a temporalist can take an additional move or standard action, which does not count towards her actions for the turn.

While time is paused, other creatures are invulnerable to the chronomancer's attacks and spells and cannot be targeted. Other creatures or objects cannot move or take any actions, even free actions. The temporalist is still harmed by normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and other environmental hazards. When the time stop ends, everything continues as if it had not stopped at all. Projectiles resume motion, spell duration continues to decrease, and other creatures do not perceive the time stop in any way; a temporalist who pauses time, moves, and resumes time appears to have teleported.

A temporalist can unpause time as part of an attack. If she does so, the target is denied their Dexterity bonus to AC because they have no time to react to the attack.

Freeze: At Xth level, as a full-round action, a temporalist can pause time for an extended duration. She can choose to freeze time for any number of rounds, up to half her Intelligence modifier. Doing so requires spending three moments per round of frozen time. A temporalist cannot cast spells while time is frozen. Any ranged attacks a temporalist makes while time is frozen remain in the air until time is unfrozen, at which point the attacks are all resolved at the same time against their targets' flat-footed AC.

Leap: At Xth level, the temporalist learns to leap forward in the time stream. By spending X moments as a move action, the temporalist can leap forward any amount of time up to her Intelligence modifier in minutes, but she must choose how far to go before making the jump. After that long, she leaps back into the space she left, having perceived only a moment's passage.

I've decided that being able to go back to aid yourself causes more problems than it's worth. Yeah, rule of cool, but rule of cool's not worth violating causality over.

ArcturusV
2013-10-09, 04:33 PM
Hmm, the wording on Temporal Master gave me another idea to throw out there...

Eyes of the True Predator (Su): A Temporalist gains a gaze attack that they can activate as a move equivalent action. The Temporalist stares at a single target within 60', forcing them to make a saving throw with DC 10+Temporalist Level+Intelligence Modifier against Will.
If successful, the Temporalist can read the immediate future of the target as long as the Temporalist can maintain line of sight upon the target. While this gaze is activated the Temporalist gets a Dodge Bonus to AC and an untyped bonus to saving throws equal to the Temporalist's Int Modifier.
At Level X, a Temporalist may spend a Moment to gain an additional immediate action that can be used during the target's turn.
At Level Y, A Temporalist may spend two moments to use a Movement Action as an immediate action during the target's turn.
At Level Z, a Temporalist may spend three moments to use a Standard Action as an immediate action during the target's turn.
A Temporalist may only have one instance of Eyes of the True Predator up at a time, if they use this ability on a different target, the effect ends on the first target. A Temporalist may choose to end this ability at any time.

Which again kinda hits into the Pausing sort of theme, when it comes into play. Just being able to lock onto someone and go "Umm... nope" and choose to do something. Though of course also ties into Future Sight and Fate. "I know what you're going to do so I can plan to counter it before you even do it".

DedWards
2013-10-10, 06:32 AM
It's been a VERY long time since I played D&D, but my group's been playing Mutants and Masterminds for a long time now. One thing I learned from creating characters in M&M is to make powers that replicate the end result. I find freezing time (and granting the character 'free' turns) potentially boring for the other players, so just replicating the end result makes sense (to me at least). Just use fluff in the power's description to explain how it happens.

Eg: a teleport power can be excused as the character stopping time, moving, then resuming time. Another one is allowing the character to make a melee attack on an opponent at range and in line of site (with some cost involved, moments?) With the excuse that the character froze time, moved and made the attack, then returned.

I really like the Moment's resource idea. As for paradoxes, how about having the character immediatly resist damage to Int just for trying to use powers that pull stuff from the future (like the Temporal Loop and Time Egg powers). Who says time is liniar, and who says it has to affect the character in the future? The character / item pulled from the "future" could be from a different time line.

Realms of Chaos
2013-10-10, 08:30 AM
Would anyone mind if I took my own shot at making a time-based class. This sounds really quite fun! :smallbiggrin:

AttilaTheGeek
2013-10-10, 12:09 PM
Would anyone mind if I took my own shot at making a time-based class. This sounds really quite fun! :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, sure, just give credit if you take mechanics you haven't written.

Realms of Chaos
2013-10-10, 03:55 PM
Here's my shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308317)

AttilaTheGeek
2013-10-10, 05:16 PM
Okay, here we go! This is almost a full class, but since it's not, I'm posting it here instead of in its own thread. I've still got a few dead levels at 5, 8, 14, and 17. There are a couple things I need to go back to, marked in red. The class has 3/4 BAB, good fort and ref, and bad will. Other than that, have at it!

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The temporalist is proficient in light armor and all simple and martial weapons, plus the buckler. If the temporalist wears medium or heavy armor, each of her powers suffer a chance to fail equal to the armor's arcane spell failure chance. Note that the Medium Armor and Heavy Armor talents allow a temporalist to use her powers without fail while wearing bulkier armor.

Moments: A temporalist has a pool of moments equal to her temporalist level plus twice her Intelligence modifier, which she uses to fuel her time manipulation powers. Once each day, she can spend one hour re-attuning herself to the flow of time to completely restore her moments. Each of her powers has a moment cost that must be paid to use the power.

Pause: Pausing time is the most basic of a temporalist's powers. At 1st level, by spending one moment as a swift action, a temporalist can take an additional move or standard action, which does not count towards her actions for the turn.

While time is paused, other creatures are invulnerable to the temporalist's attacks and spells and cannot be targeted. Other creatures or objects cannot move or take any actions, even free actions. The temporalist is still harmed by normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and other environmental hazards. When the time stop ends, everything continues as if it had not stopped at all. Projectiles resume motion, spell duration continues to decrease, and other creatures do not perceive the time stop in any way; a temporalist who pauses time, moves, and resumes time appears to have teleported. A temporalist cannot cast spells while time is paused. A temporalist can leave time unpaused for other creatures, but only by touching them.

A temporalist can unpause time as part of an attack. If she does so, the target is denied their Dexterity bonus to AC because they have no time to react to the attack. Any ranged attacks a temporalist makes while time is paused remain in the air until time is unpaused, at which point all the attacks are resolved at the same time against their targets' flat-footed AC.

Powers: A temporalist learns a variety of powers she can use to manipulate time. All powers are active supernatural abilities, so they do not provoke attacks of opportunity and cannot be dispelled, but they cease to function in an Antimagic Field. A temporalist learns one power at 2nd level, one power at 3rd level, and an additional power every 3 levels thereafter.I'm working on some more powers. All the powers are active abilities that manipulate time, and almost all of them affect only the temporalist. Those that do affect enemies affect the temporalist as well.
Freeze: You can stop time for an extended duration. As a move action, you can choose to pause time for any number of rounds, up to half your Intelligence modifier. Doing so requires spending 2 moments per round of frozen time.

Leap: You learn how to leap forward in the time stream. By spending 2 moments as a move action, you can leap forward any amount of time up to your Intelligence modifier in minutes, but you must choose how far to go before making the jump. After that long, you leap back into the space you left, having perceived only a moment's passage. You can take other creatures with you by touching them, but they can make a Will save to resist leaping through time with you.

Lock: You can lock yourself in time, and return to that time and condition later. By spending 3 moments as a move action, you can "lock" your position and status, which includes hit points, condition, and any magical effects affecting you. After that, for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence modifier, you can spend a move action and an additional 1 moment to return to that position and status.

Stasis: You can put herself and creatures around you into a temporal stasis. As a standard action, you can pause time for yourself and all creatures within 10 feet of you, and they do not receive a save to resist. Creatures farther than 10 feet from you are unaffected. Doing so costs 3 moments per round, and you can unpause time at any time as a free action.

Dilate: You can slow down time, but only in a limited radius. By spending 2 moments as a move action, you can slow time to half speed within a radius of 20 feet for up to one hour per temporalist level. Since time itself is being slowed, not just creatures themselves, creatures within the effect perceive no change in the flow of time, even as two minutes pass for the outside world for every minute within. To one inside the radius, it merely appears that the outside world is moving twice as fast. In combat, every creature outside the radius can take twice as many actions per round. Creatures receive no save to resist the effects, but can return themselves to normal time by leaving the radius.

Compress: You can speed up time, but only in a limited radius. By spending 2 moments as a move action, you can accelerate time to double speed within a radius of 20 feet of you for up to one hour per temporalist level. Since time itself is moving faster, not just creatures themselves, creatures within the effect perceive no change in the flow of time, even as one minute passes for the outside world for every two minutes within. To one inside the radius, it merely appears that the outside world is moving at half speed. In combat, every creature inside the radius can take twice as many actions per round, but if every creature in combat is within the radius, then they all perceive time to be equal, so the effects of compression can be omitted for simplicity. Creatures receive no save to resist the effects, but can return themselves to normal time by leaving the radius.

Double Time: You can jump into your own future, coexisting with you future self for a few moments to provide crucial aid. By spending 3 moments as a swift action at the beginning of your turn, you can jump forward in the time stream to your next turn, and you reappear at the end of this turn in the same space.

At the beginning of your next turn, your past self arrives in your square. Your past self is you from one round ago, and can take a move and standard action, but no swift action. It acts at the same time as you, during your turn. During this turn, you coexist with your past self, but it must jump back in time six seconds at the end of this turn. If it takes any damage during its turn (for example, for an attack of opportunity), you take that damage as well. Prerequisite: Leap. I might cut it, because it can cause small paradoxes, but the class needs more powers.

Reverse: You learn how to travel back to your own past. By spending 4 moments as a swift action, you can go back one round in your personal time. You returns to your position, hit points, and status of exactly one round before. Time is not affected for others.

Rewind: You discover how to turn back the clock, not only for yourself, but for the rest of the world as well. By spending 5 moments as a standard action, you can rewind time for the entire world by just a moment. Everything becomes just as it was one round ago, and only you remembers what happened in that round. It is the beginning of your turn one round before you rewound, and you can take a full round of actions. Prerequisite: Reverse.

Bonus Feats: At 3rd level, and every four levels thereafter, a temporalist gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats). She must meet the prerequisites for these feats as normal.

Talents: At 4th level, and every three levels thereafter, a temporalist discovers a secret that improves her time manipulation skills. Unlike powers, which are all active abilities, talents are all passive abilities that enhance the temporalist's abilities. Some grant additional moments, give bonuses, or enhance powers. Like powers, talents are also all supernatural abilities.

Extended Pause: Your pause lasts long enough for you to take a full round of actions. May be too strong.

Medium Armor: You gain Medium Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. You can now wear medium armor without suffering a chance for your powers to fail.

Heavy Armor: You gain Heavy Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. You can now wear heavy armor without suffering a chance for your powers to fail. Prerequisite: Medium Armor.

Premeditation: Your skill in time manipulation grants you brief glimpses of the future. You receive the lower of your Intelligence modifier or your temporalist level as a permanent insight bonus to initiative.

Insight: Your extensive work with time travel gives you flashes of insight into what is about to happen. You receive your Intelligence modifier as a permanent insight bonus to Reflex saves and Perception checks.

Foresight: You can see a split second into the future, just enough to know the location of a blade or arrow. You receive the lower of your Intelligence modifier or your temporalist level as a permanent insight bonus to AC.

Momentum: After an extensive burst of time travel, you become attuned to the temporal energies you have been manipulating. At the beginning of each turn, if you have spent 6 or more moments in the last two rounds (perceived rounds, not necessarily real rounds), then you recover 1 moment.

Quickened Pause: You have honed your reflexes, and now can pause time as a reaction to another's action. You can Pause time as an immediate action rather than a swift action, but doing so costs 2 moments instead of 1.

Power Specialization: Extensively practicing one power makes it easier in the future. When you learn this talent, choose a power. That power costs 1 fewer moment each time you use it.

Extra Moments: Use of time travel has strengthened your mental reserves. Your maximum number of moments is increased by your Intelligence modifier. I'm considering cutting this, because I don't want a temporalist to wind up with so many moments that they can use powers left and right, but I'm not sure. Only time will tell!

Out Of Time: Even when you have no moments remaining, you can pull some spare time from your future into the present. You can continue to spend, even when you have none remaining. As long as the number of moments you have is less than zero, you are slowed (http://paizo.com/prd/spells/slow.html), as the spell. The slow effect cannot be removed or dispelled by any means until your moment count becomes positive again. If the number of moments you have is below zero by more than your Intelligence modifier (unclear?), you must make a Will save at a DC of 10 + 3 times your negative moment count each round or vanish completely from existence. If you fail the save, you cannot be returned by any means short of a carefully worded Wish or Miracle.

Efficiency: You recover moments 50% faster. Each hour, you recover 1d2 moments, instead of just one.

Temporal Mastery (Su): At 20th level, a temporalist attains ultimate control over the temporal flow. She sees the past, the present, and the future with every gaze. Any attacks the temporalist makes can strike an enemy passing through that space up to one minute in the future or one minute in the past. Attacks directed at an enemy's past self target flat-footed AC, but deal damage in the present instead of dealing damage retroactively. Attacks directed at an enemy's future self have no effect if the enemy does not pass through that square up to one minute in the future, but are resolved against their flat-footed AC if they do.

Owrtho
2013-10-12, 03:40 AM
Man, all this talk of time travel and time manipulation is inspiring me to put the finish up a time manipulation subsystem I came up with for 3.p a few months back and never quite got done. It isn't quite the same as what seems to be the goal here, as it doesn't really allow time loops (well, from a technical semantic level it does, but not in the manner spoken of here). It also is more so designed to take place in a setting where time is already a little wonky compared to normal. Still, I'll try to get the core mechanics wrapped up this weekend, and post them. Then, I'll likely look into adding some PRCs and maybe even ACFs or classes that use it.

Owrtho

Phelix-Mu
2013-10-12, 01:44 PM
Let me just put in a kudos as this is a good use of creative intellect. While time stuff is probably not good in my personal setting, it's pure gold in some variations that I've been working with lately. As a fan of time travel since the old Doctor Who, I confess that this all makes my heart go pitter patter.

Let me add my thought: Int-based classes are cool. In fact, I'm rather partial to them. But, there are a metric ton of them. Consider a feat or ACF in the vein of Kung-fu Genius or something like that, that allows the temporalist to work off of a different stat.

For fluff, consider that the Int-based Temporalist is a scientist manipulating quanta of time stuff or some such in a highly analytical manner, planning strategic advantage, and operating on a truly "next-level" of intellect (as non-linear time mechanics usually give lesser minds minor aneurysms).

But, perhaps there is a different type of Temporalist (or, indeed, a different class using similar mechanics). Consider the Wis-based time manipulator. "I feel time." Or, to the cliche, "I SEE TIME." This character would operate intuitively, bending time out of a strange instinct (I'm feeling a Haruhi reference coming on) for survival or benefit. By sensing the weak spots, the divergent timelines, and the flux inherent in reality, the character can determine how to allocate their class features. Not as intellectual, but still a very interesting concept, somewhat more mystical or meta. Or something.

I could come up with some compelling fluff for a Cha-based one, too. And someone earlier mentioned one based off of Con. It could be done. And I've always liked classes that didn't restrict players to one or two fairly obvious stat arrays (as it tends to restrict the types of characters that can be made following that concept...no idiot wizards, for example).

Anyway, I highly like the concept. Will look forward to reading the class itself when I get some more time.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-10-13, 07:36 AM
The class is up! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16202421) I'd appreciate if any discussion could be moved to that thread instead.

AlexanderRM
2013-11-26, 11:11 PM
Ooh, I like it. It means I need separate rules for Paradoxes, though. I'm thinking just INT damage, but 1 per hour, because Paradoxes should be really deadly. I say INT instead of WIS because it's the highest stat, so that should give the chronomancer/temporalist a little bit of time before they really start to suffer.

One important note here: If you use ability damage as the price of using an ability, you need to include terms to prevent players from just being immune to that price- not only by immunity to ability damage but also by the fast healing ability from binding Naberius, which only requires 1 level of binder. There's also magical methods of healing ability damage; I suppose it could still work somewhat as a disincentive with those, although at higher levels it gets easier and easier.
With Paradoxes it would be easy enough to say that in addition to it being impossible to make yourself immune to it, you can't start healing the ability damage until after you stop taking it, I suppose. Similar to the rule for things like cold weather damage.

ianzb
2013-12-19, 12:33 PM
I'd like to steal a few mechanics discussed here for a homebrew of my own if that's ok. Speciffically the "moments" pool idea.

DracoDei
2013-12-20, 12:25 PM
One important note here: If you use ability damage as the price of using an ability, you need to include terms to prevent players from just being immune to that price- not only by immunity to ability damage but also by the fast healing ability from binding Naberius, which only requires 1 level of binder.
Well, if that 1 level dip isn't enough of a price on its own. I wouldn't know in this case.

There's also magical methods of healing ability damage; I suppose it could still work somewhat as a disincentive with those, although at higher levels it gets easier and easier.
A lot of this is fixed by making it Burn, rather than Damage.