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pita
2006-12-31, 01:46 PM
Well, the reason I'm posting it here (and not the wizard's forum, where people are more active) is because the people here are smarter than in Wizards.
Ok, now, I have a problem. I enjoy one class and one race (mostly) in D&D. Changeling(From Keith Baker's setting. You know, the one with the dinosaurs and the really cool robots.) Assassin(From Cityworks, published by Fantasy Flight Games). Now, my DM says that while each one is fair alone(After an hour of argument about each), the two together are insane. I argued with him about this point, but he seems convinced. I also asked him about the rogue to see his response, and it was "Well, the rogue is less combat oriented! The assassin is much better for changelings!"
Can you please explain to him why it is fair, or to me why it isn't? And I'm not looking for the rampant DM hate that runs through the Wizard's forums, but intellegent answers that don't repeat each other.
Tell me, or be smote by :miko:. Because you're evil.

Halcyon_Dax
2006-12-31, 01:51 PM
First of all...

Changling is from Ebberon, and, although you are talking of some other assassin class, assassin is in the DMG as well. The version in the DMG is totally fine, sorry I dont know about the other one.

I wouldnt say either of those is broken, even together.

There... really isnt anything that would make this combonation unfair in my mind... I certainly have had MUCH more powerful character combonations and not screwed up game because 'omguber'.

That being said, it sounds like a fun character anyhoo.

Dark Knight Renee
2006-12-31, 01:59 PM
Changeling is also in the MM3.

Assuming the two are the same, I fail to see your DM's point. I see no way in which Changeling can possibly abuse the Assassin class, which isn't all that impressive to begin with.

Were-Sandwich
2006-12-31, 02:03 PM
Not everyone owns this supplement of which you speak. Care to fill us in on the details of this class?

pita
2006-12-31, 02:08 PM
It is a rogue without the non sneak attack abilities, a weapon mastery for tiny weapons, d8 hit dice, full BAB, and an assassination ability that only works on humanoids that it gets at level 1. at level 10 he can assassinate anything. It's a base class.
Also, he gets only 4 skills per level and only 4 charisma based skills. Diplomacy, Gather Information, Bluff, and Disguise.

Were-Sandwich
2006-12-31, 02:15 PM
How is this broken with changeling exactly?

pita
2006-12-31, 02:17 PM
I used it to change into someone a noble trusted to kill him.... I was a hired assassin who couldn't be tracked... I was generally very creative with my characters.

Halcyon_Dax
2006-12-31, 03:03 PM
Wow, sucky DM.

You are punished because... you are creative?

pita
2006-12-31, 03:11 PM
DM gets sick of trying to find ways that I can get by. He's annoyed at my shapechanging creativities combined with the killer potential.

Marius
2006-12-31, 03:26 PM
Who is that different from a non-changeling assassin that uses a hat of disguise to do the same?

Halcyon_Dax
2006-12-31, 03:27 PM
I would stick with changeling, and adopt the assasin PRC found in the DMG and SRD here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm .

Thats all fair and balanced Im sure. I think most of the other board members would agree that that isnt overpowered in any way.

pita
2006-12-31, 03:55 PM
Who is that different from a non-changeling assassin that uses a hat of disguise to do the same?
To quote my DM: "The non-changeling has to pay for it!"

shaka gl
2006-12-31, 04:03 PM
DM gets sick of trying to find ways that I can get by. He's annoyed at my shapechanging creativities combined with the killer potential.

So, he throws a dragon or something else with True Sight and you are screwed... it wasnt that hard...

Pegasos989
2006-12-31, 04:04 PM
To quote my DM: "The non-changeling has to pay for it!"

Like... Next to nothing? Hell, half orc with hat of disguise is propably overpowered, because he doesn't have to pay for +2 str bonus? Maybe most idiotic thing I have heard today. :D

But well... How is that diffrent from normal assassin dipping one level to wizard or sorcerer or something and casting disguise self? Or then, just go rogue, max use magic device and buy a scroll of disguise self. Watch as your DM stares at you blindly.

pita
2006-12-31, 04:13 PM
So, he throws a dragon or something else with True Sight and you are screwed... it wasnt that hard...
And then he says "But I don't want to hose you!" This was after supplying him with a few ideas like detect lies, antimagic zone, detect evil, and of course, Dispel Magic.
And he's right about that. But what were fire elementals made for other than to challenge the wizard who usually uses his Fireballs on basilisks? I mentioned that to him, and he said "Oh, so now you want a dispel magic cast on you every single second? So your changings last one turn?" Also, we play in hebrew, and since mine isn't perfect I couldn't mention to him that dispel magic is not antimagic field and does allow supernatural abilities.
Well, Pegasos, I'm still in shock from an apology made today but the shock is over, and now I'm glad to have made your day! My friend won't appreciate it, though.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2006-12-31, 04:17 PM
personally, I would think that if your DM will allow evil characters, just be a changeling rogue, and go into assassin from the DMG when you can.

pita
2006-12-31, 04:19 PM
The prestige class isn't really what I want... I'm looking for a warrior sneak attacker with bluff on his class list.

Thomas
2006-12-31, 04:53 PM
The prestige class isn't really what I want... I'm looking for a warrior sneak attacker with bluff on his class list.

You mean the Invisible Blade PrC from Complete Warrior? :smalltongue:

Marius
2006-12-31, 06:25 PM
To quote my DM: "The non-changeling has to pay for it!"

But a hat of disguise is only 1800gp! What level are you starting? Humans start with a bonus feat and at level 20 they have 23 more skill points how much is that worth?

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 06:32 PM
Yep. Point out that, say, dwarves get +2 CON--which is worth 4000 GP as a magic item--in addition to a host of other abilities. Humans get a bonus feat and free skill points, which you can't buy.

Really, though, if your DM is unreasonable, he'll probably remain unreasonable. Some DMs have strange ideas, like "changeling assassins are uber" and "Warlocks are overpowered".

Pegasos989
2006-12-31, 06:37 PM
But a hat of disguise is only 1800gp! What level are you starting? Humans start with a bonus feat and at level 20 they have 23 more skill points how much is that worth?


I know you didn't expect an answer but I would say that skillpoints could go with the "enchantment bonus to skill is bonus squared * 100" rule, so 23*23*100 = 52900gp. Sounds reasonable, actuallly. Pricing a feat would be damn hard

knewsom
2006-12-31, 09:08 PM
You could always multiclass with swashbuckler... One of my favorite combos is a Swashbuckler/Rouge with 2 weapon fighting and weapon finesse. Insightful Strike is pretty awesome, as is the full BAB for the few levels you'll take as a SB. Take Rouge for the rest, or something from Complete Adventurer.

I tend to prefer the ring of chameleon power to the hat of disguise due to the rediculous bonus to hide checks. :) wicked.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 09:13 PM
Take Rogue, instead. Rouge is make-up.

pita
2007-01-01, 03:25 AM
You mean the Invisible Blade PrC from Complete Warrior? :smalltongue:
...
I also dislike Prestige Classes and the way they're used. They should be a suggestion made by the DM, not a choice made by the player before the game. Maybe later on when the player wants to specialize in becoming completely beserk he can take levels in Frenzied Rager if the DM wants.

Necomancer
2007-01-01, 03:59 AM
...
I also dislike Prestige Classes and the way they're used. They should be a suggestion made by the DM, not a choice made by the player before the game. Maybe later on when the player wants to specialize in becoming completely beserk he can take levels in Frenzied Rager if the DM wants.

...Wha?

So some decisisions about your character's class and character progress should be up to the DM? I really have to disagree here...I strongly prefer freedom to make my character what I want, and I admit the DM has some say in it, alot depending on the campaign and how he runs it, but not all. The character is yours.

Honestly I like the idea of just being a rogue. If you want to be a warrior as well you can always take some fighter levels. Maby even not bother with a PrC. You don't need the assassin PrC to be a assassin in game. You just need to kill stuff for money.

pita
2007-01-01, 04:16 AM
I don't like the way one of the players overuses prestige classes. Every time he makes a character he looks in splatbook X for a prestige class that combines with the feat from splatbook Y.

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-01, 04:19 AM
So, just because you used your racial shapechanging power to get close to a target, you're broken. Guess what- THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ABILITY!

It replicates a Disguise Self. You can get it for 1800gp in a Hat of Disguise. To get this ability you gave:(choose one) +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Str, A bonus feat and skill points, Racial Power Points etc. I think your DM has a screwed sense of balance. Either that or he's one of these "My players are solving challenges by thinkin and being creative rather than just beating things up. THEY'RE DOING IOTN WRONG" DMs.

Oh, and on the PrC thing: The idea is that you shoot for them from character creation. Thats the only way you can actually expect to get in to one.

pita
2007-01-01, 05:23 AM
Maybe one like Weaponmaster. But if you want to take Assassin or Warhulk it's easy.

pita
2007-01-01, 10:35 AM
His main problem is with the assassin. He thinks both are unfair, but the assassin is the main perpetrator.
My DM's words exactly about why the assassin is unfair.

The assassin is too much of a fighting class. The whole point of the rogue was that because of the sneak attack, he would always try to catch his enemies flat footed. As a response to that, his BAB was lower than a fighter, and so were his hit dice. When compared to that, the Assassin has
A) More life.
B)A full BAB and sneak attack, which gives him an unfair advantage to hit and damage in battle.
C) The insane ability Death Attack, which he gets at level one (Pita's note: only to humanoids), without any cost attached, is not reasonable.

Dragor
2007-01-01, 10:42 AM
DM gets sick of trying to find ways that I can get by. He's annoyed at my shapechanging creativities combined with the killer potential.

Exactly the same with my friend. He plays a Fey'Ri. (shape-changing + chaotic alignment = one annoying mother trucker.)

Pegasos989
2007-01-01, 10:42 AM
His main problem is with the assassin. He thinks both are unfair, but the assassin is the main perpetrator.
My DM's words exactly about why the assassin is unfair.

Ask him about the fighter variant class (not the thug one but the one at the end) http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm

It is generally seen as balanced or even weak. It is like fighter but gains sneak attack instead of bonus feats.

Peregrin_Tooc
2007-01-01, 11:08 AM
OK, I don't see a prob either with the balancing, but a word abeout PrCs:
IMHO you definitely should choose one before getting to many levels (because it will be far to diffiucult to get one if you don't) if you want one. But is has to fit in regard to the Roleplaying-component (not the Hack'n Slay component), so it is up to the DM to grant a prestige class when you level-up. So, my point is, the secondary prerequisits (e.g. being member of a guild) are far more important than skills and or feats.

pita
2007-01-01, 11:10 AM
Both me and him think that one is completely weak. It's like saying "No thanks for that sniper rifle. I have skills with the musket."
It just won't work.

Beleriphon
2007-01-01, 11:17 AM
DM gets sick of trying to find ways that I can get by. He's annoyed at my shapechanging creativities combined with the killer potential.

I should point out that a changeling doesn't have shapechange, they have a +10 to disguise checks. That means you take all the normal penalties for using the skill Disguise. Different race then changeling -2, different gener -2, and a different age category -2 per step difference. Thus if you go from adult to venerable you're looking at an additional -6 to the check. If the NPC is intimate with the details of the person you're disguising yourself as then the NPC gets a +10 bonus to the spot check. Thus you could actually completely negate the bonus from the changelings natural abilities. The would still have their invested ranks and charisma bonus, but still not that powerful.

Beyond your ability to do a disguise check a standard action instead of 1d310 minutes the changelings ability isn't that powerful. Useful certainly, but broken in any way? Hardly.

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-01, 11:23 AM
Most DMs will only call for a disguise check in cisumstances where its appropriate. Just walking down the street shouldn't call for a bajillion opposed Discuise checks from all the peasants.

Beleriphon
2007-01-01, 11:32 AM
Most DMs will only call for a disguise check in cisumstances where its appropriate. Just walking down the street shouldn't call for a bajillion opposed Discuise checks from all the peasants.

Thats true, but anything that draws attention to yourself should. Add in playing a changeling, presumably Eberron, and people will be watching out for them. If you act like Lord Bob's best friend then you should be incurring a check from everybody you meet that knows this person in any way. The specifics of each check would change but they should be happening.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-01-01, 11:38 AM
I'm still wondering how the DMG Assasin is underpowered. Sure, saving throws v.s. poison is too specific but he has Hide in Plain Sight and his spell casting is as good as a Ranger or Paladins. Plus, since he's in the DMG, every new sourcebook has spells for him, which is more than you can say for a lot of other Prcs that get minor spellcasting. If you want to Assasinate people very well, taking the Assasin class is a good idea.

stainboy
2007-01-01, 11:55 AM
Sounds like your DM just doesn't want you playing that style of character.

I've disallowed more than one shapeshifting assassin PC. (Yes, it's come up more than once. By the same guy, but it was more than once.) I've even gone so far as to disallow the Hat of Disguise in one game. I simply don't want to run a game with an amoral PC with a magical ability that lets him get away with anything he wants, barring ridiculous magical countermeasures that I can't reasonably give to every critical NPC the character might want to kill and impersonate. A character like that is a solo operator, and running a solo mission while the rest of the group sits around bored isn't fun for anyone but that one player. Beyond that, that MO is so different from how normal D&D characters operate that I have to build the entire game around that style of play, which (1) isn't the type of game I want to run and (2) leaves out the rest of the party.

Peregrin_Tooc
2007-01-01, 03:30 PM
and these are the only "sense-making" reasons not to allow such character. It doesen't fit in the Party - no way! D&D is a Party-Game, excuse the pun, so no "Han Solo", please (another one - forgive, I plead!).
Ask the other players how they want it. No way they can forbid you to play a shapeshifter-assassin, but maybe they don't want one in their party - an if that is so, you shouldn't spoil their fun but rather leave theit group.
in my Grop we had a player who had an "ego-trip" , no offense meant, and after a (short) while we loathed him so much we got his character killed. Which was a mean thing to do, but he didn't listen to reason....

Toliudar
2007-01-01, 03:57 PM
So, if his main problem is with the Assassin variant that you're proposing, just stay rogue. From what you're describing, your tactics (use disguise to catch people unawares and then stab them) don't change. If he fears the death attack from level 1...well, so would I. I can't think of any first-level character that has a save-or-die ANYTHING. Even one that, presumably, is easy to save against.

Or you could suggest the thug:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug

Like your assassin type, it's full BAB, 4 skill points. You're trading off sneak attack and the death attack for a better hit die and feats.

Munchy
2007-01-01, 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by DM
The assassin is too much of a fighting class. The whole point of the rogue was that because of the sneak attack, he would always try to catch his enemies flat footed. As a response to that, his BAB was lower than a fighter, and so were his hit dice. When compared to that, the Assassin has
A) More life.
B)A full BAB and sneak attack, which gives him an unfair advantage to hit and damage in battle.
C) The insane ability Death Attack, which he gets at level one (Pita's note: only to humanoids), without any cost attached, is not reasonable.


Corrections :

1. Assasins have d6 HD, just like rogues.

2. Assasins have 3/4 BAB progression, just like rogues.

3. The Death Attack is hardly "insane" if applied correctly :

You have to be lvl 5 to enter the PrC.

You must first spend 3 rounds "studying" the target. That means the target has at least 3 rounds to detect the assasin or to move out of range. You must then land a sneak attack with a MELEE weapon and do damange.

It allows a Fort save throw with a DC of 10 + levels in assasin PrC + Int modifier. Unless you have a pimped out Int stat or are real high level this is going to be a fairly low DC. Even then, it is inferior to what a cleric/wizard/druid could do.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-01-01, 06:24 PM
Corrections :

1. Assasins have d6 HD, just like rogues.

2. Assasins have 3/4 BAB progression, just like rogues.

3. The Death Attack is hardly "insane" if applied correctly :

You have to be lvl 5 to enter the PrC.

You must first spend 3 rounds "studying" the target. That means the target has at least 3 rounds to detect the assasin or to move out of range. You must then land a sneak attack with a MELEE weapon and do damange.

It allows a Fort save throw with a DC of 10 + levels in assasin PrC + Int modifier. Unless you have a pimped out Int stat or are real high level this is going to be a fairly low DC. Even then, it is inferior to what a cleric/wizard/druid could do.

He's already mentioned that he's not using that class.

Munchy
2007-01-01, 07:16 PM
He's already mentioned that he's not using that class.

Ah. So he is mixing some D&D stuff with some non-D&D stuff. In that case, without having both sources as well as an understanding of how they are being mixed by the DM, it is fairly hard to provide the answers he wants.

Matthew
2007-01-01, 08:36 PM
Seems to me that if the DM doesn't want to allow this Character, that's up to him. Maybe you could play it for a trial period or try another Character?

Diggorian
2007-01-01, 10:01 PM
Now, my DM says that while each one is fair alone(After an hour of argument about each), the two together are insane. I argued with him about this point, but he seems convinced.

If your DM allows this class and that race, it's foolish for him to disallow your changeling assasin. If I allow Half Ogres and I allow Warblades from the Tome of Battle, I'm allowing the possibility of Half Ogre Warblades in my game.

What he should have done is stuck up for his opinion in the beginning. His game, his right. Now he's retreated to an weaker postion. This base class assasin doesnt sound like anything I'd allow, but my opinion is irrelevant.

Give him a link to this thread and keep up the pressure; he'll likely fold. Beleriphon has some good ideas about checking the changeling powers.

If the DM manages to stick to his guns, bite the bullet and make a rogue/fighter.

Bloodred
2007-01-01, 10:24 PM
DM gets sick of trying to find ways that I can get by. He's annoyed at my shapechanging creativities combined with the killer potential.
Has he ever heard of Divination effects?? Particualrly by people who dont apprecate un-lawful violence(Such as the po-po)?? Or perhaps vengfull members of the persons family??

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-01-01, 10:53 PM
I haven't looked at it in a while. But if you don't want to go with any PrC's, then it looks like a ninja might be your best bet. I think it's in complete adventurer. That, and I don't think i've ever come across someone before that doesn't like PrC's.

stainboy
2007-01-02, 09:05 AM
To clarify: the Assassin class being discussed here isn't the one in the DMG. It's a class from... well, I can't remember, but it's 3rd-party, a core class, and a much more martial take on the concept (full BAB and fewer skill points). I played in a game with one once. They're pretty cool and well balanced.

Like I said, pita, since you've said the DM gets frustrated with your tactics, I'm guessing he just isn't the DM for the character you want to play. I'd just shelve the changeling assassin idea and go for a character with a more traditional MO.

pita
2007-01-03, 02:31 AM
Yeah... I settled with a half ogre barbarian, going warhulk...
It's way more powerful than the assassin.
He's basically a collector of things. He has four daggers (Stingy, Bitey, Stabby, and Smally), a shovel, a jaw breaker (torture instrument from BoVD), a sledge (Smashy), an axe, and studded leather armor (he's planning on using the axe and replacing the armor when he gets his first 120 gp. I gave him ranks in use rope and intimidate, thinking he'd be a group information specialist, or, sadist, as it is usually known). I have plans for him to be Elan-like in behavior.

Diggorian
2007-01-03, 07:07 PM
Funny, in my example earlier I was gonna say barbarian, but thought "Who doesnt allow Barbarians". you got the Half Ogre though :smallwink: