PDA

View Full Version : D&D: Supercantrip, Crappy 1st level, or Good 1st level spell



johnbragg
2013-10-09, 06:22 PM
Spell #1.
School TBD
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft + 5 ft/2 levels)
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Will negates(harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes

The target of the spell gets an attack bonus of +1 per caster level with a maximum of (+5/+10/no maximum) for the next round.
----------------

So is that an overpowered cantrip because it's more powerful than any cantrip in the game, a lousy first level spell because of the duration, or a balanced first-level spell? Or is it an overpowered first level spell?

And yes, Spell #2 and Spell #3 would do the same for damage and AC.

ArcturusV
2013-10-09, 06:32 PM
Well... it's basically strictly worse than True Strike (Lower bonus, no avoidance of miss chances) unless there is no cap on the bonus and you're in Epic Levels. At which point you probably don't need that anyway.

But it's stronger than most Cantrips as they tend to be +1 bonuses.

The boosts are basically all in this weird no man's land between what Cantrips typically can accomplish, and what first level spells can do better. I'd probably peg them at first level spells. cap the bonus to +1/caster level (Max 5). They'll be weak spells, but might be worth a damn at some points. Like having a cleric cast Bless on the party, then you casting the +damage version on someone with flurry like a Sohei to get some extra damage at low levels.

... but very niche.

DeAnno
2013-10-09, 06:41 PM
Better than True Strike in many ways. It can be cast on an ally, at close range no less, and it functions for the whole round and not just one attack. It's definitely a Divination, and definitely a first level spell. A cap of 5 makes it reasonable but slightly weak, a cap of 10 makes it fairly strong (remember it's easily quickened).

EDIT: +5 plus +1 per three caster levels max +10 maybe? It could also be a transmutation.

johnbragg
2013-10-10, 01:09 PM
Better than True Strike in many ways. It can be cast on an ally, at close range no less, and it functions for the whole round and not just one attack. It's definitely a Divination,

You generally can't share Divinations, at least not at that speed.

It could be a Luck bonus for the attack roll version. Damage roll could be


and definitely a first level spell. A cap of 5 makes it reasonable but slightly weak, a cap of 10 makes it fairly strong (remember it's easily quickened).

If we make this spell a cantrip, (a supercantrip?) is it really worth a fourth-level spell slot to boost an attack roll by +CL for one round? If it's your attack roll, you could quicken true strike as a fifth level spell. If you're buffing a melee tank, I'd rather have a stoneskin or a summon monster IV to give me flanking bonuses and attack the bad guy.

If we make this a 1st level spell, then you're using a 5th level spell so that you can give the tank a +CL attack bonus, and still cast another spell.


EDIT: +5 plus +1 per three caster levels max +10 maybe? It could also be a transmutation.
Transmutation is likely, Enchantment is possible (Bless)

Ziegander
2013-10-10, 01:17 PM
If we make this spell a cantrip, (a supercantrip?) is it really worth a fourth-level spell slot to boost an attack roll by +CL for one round? If it's your attack roll, you could quicken true strike as a fifth level spell. If you're buffing a melee tank, I'd rather have a stoneskin or a summon monster IV to give me flanking bonuses and attack the bad guy.

If we make this a 1st level spell, then you're using a 5th level spell so that you can give the tank a +CL attack bonus, and still cast another spell.

What are you getting at? Nothing you've said refutes anything DeAnno stated. This is a 1st level spell, and could be a very strong one with a +10 cap. Have you ever heard of Power Attack? Cast it on your tank, as a 1st level spell, don't even worry about Quickening it, and on the tank's turn that character utterly destroys the creature of his choosing. As stated, the biggest advantages this has over True Strike are a) you can cast it on a friend, and b) it applies to all attack rolls made for one round.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-10, 01:19 PM
You generally can't share Divinations, at least not at that speed.

It could be a Luck bonus for the attack roll version. Damage roll could be
Huh?

I'm with DeAnno on this one.

johnbragg
2013-10-10, 01:52 PM
Huh?

I'm with DeAnno on this one.

If you meant the "+CL to Buddy's Attack Bonus Spell" should be a Divination, I don't know of any Divinations that work that way. Generally they give the caster information. Tongues works that way, so I suppose it's possible...

If you meant "Damage roll could be", yeah, that was posting before editing was done. I still don't know what damage roll could be.


What are you getting at? Nothing you've said refutes anything DeAnno stated. This is a 1st level spell, and could be a very strong one with a +10 cap. Have you ever heard of Power Attack? Cast it on your tank, as a 1st level spell, don't even worry about Quickening it, and on the tank's turn that character utterly destroys the creature of his choosing. As stated, the biggest advantages this has over True Strike are a) you can cast it on a friend, and b) it applies to all attack rolls made for one round.

I was just arguing that Quickening it was a poor option. It's definitely reasonable to put it as a 1st level spell, when you combine it with Power Attack. And yeah, casting it on your tank is what the spell's for.

ArcturusV
2013-10-10, 02:16 PM
Though I'd point out that 'Buffing a melee tank' is not something I'd typically do in any of my games. You use stuff like Stoneskin on squishies like Rogues, Sorcerers, Familiars, Animal Companions, etc, so they don't get smacked hard and taken out by a single shot. That guy rocking the plate armor carrying the big ass sword and such isn't there to "take hits" (Though he can on his own fairly well), he's there to be one of the best sources of HP damage. Even the flanking isn't really that important unless you're talking about something like a Thug Variant fighter or Standard Rogue.

So I'm looking at it in those terms. Not so much in terms of there being Tanks and such.

So my thoughts tend towards things like... with its duration, it's an in combat spell. Nothing else you can say about it. If I'm a low level caster (Possible exception for a Cleric), I don't want to be within 25' of the melee if I can help it. I'd rather be 100 feet away, out of melee danger, cast true strike then crossbow snipe someone. Or if I'm a divine caster cast Bless on the party instead, where at low levels it will outperform this spell in terms of results.

Though probably the bigger low level killer for this is, at level 1-3 I'd probably rather cast a Magic Weapon spell on an ally's gear before battle. Yes, at level 3 you'd be looking at a +1 Attack and Damage bonus over a +3 Attack bonus. But also one that would last all fight (Important) versus one that lasts for a single attack (Maybe two if you got a Flurry Monk/Sohei), and won't necessarily guarantee a hit.

If you're talking about a sort of scaling where at level 5 or 10 it becomes "worth it" more.... you have to keep in mind scaling at that point. Yes, as a level 1 spell slot it's low resource cost. But would you really want to give a fighter a +5 to hit in a round when you could polymorph him into something with +10 strength (comparatively to his native form), for an entire fight, giving him the same +5 to hit, +5 to damage, and probably other bonuses, taking up the same slot your Quickened Supercantrip would take?

It'd probably have to be a level 1. But a weak level 1. I'd put it on the same power tier as something like Burning Hands. At low level its power pales compared to other low level spells that do similar things. But it's decidedly better than Cantrips. And even at high levels it just runs afoul of a lot of scaling spell probably, like burning hands might be respectable damage at 5d4 when you're level 5. But it's still a spell you don't see anyone use unless they're desperate, as they much rather just chuck that fireball for 5d6 at longer range and better AoE. Or use Scorching Rays, etc.

Note that I'd think the Damage version would be better. There's lots of ways to boost attack scores, both mundane and supernatural. But fewer pure damage boosts. So having a level 1 spell that can add something like +6 damage at level 6 on a hit might actually see good use if you have something like a Sohei in the party.

DeAnno
2013-10-10, 03:23 PM
So after sleeping and looking at comments, this seems pretty reasonable:

Magic Strikes
Level: Bard 1, Cleric 1, Druid 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Transmutation
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft + 5 ft/2 levels)
Duration: 1 round (see text)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes

A brief spell burns brightly.

The target of the spell gets a +5 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls for one round. If you cast this spell on yourself, the effect lasts until the end of your next turn.


Since it's a first level spell it doesn't necessarily need to scale (though straight damage spells should), and the main two things we can compare with are True Strike and Magic Weapon. Unlike True Strike it can be cast on an ally at range close, and provides a damage bonus, and can work on multiple attacks and even AoOs. Comparing to Magic Weapon it is five times as powerful, and doesn't only target one weapon, but only lasts a round.

The spell essentially has negative scaling due to people slowly getting actual enhancement bonuses, but it's slow negative scaling, enhancement is appropriate for Transmutation, and it gives the additional bonus of breaking DR. This is a great spell to cast on a Monk or TWF Rogue, both character types that have multiple hits but lowish damage per hit at low levels.

Ziegander
2013-10-10, 03:44 PM
Seems a bit much to me. I would nix the damage bonus and allow it to be cast from Medium range.

johnbragg
2013-10-10, 03:54 PM
I do appreciate everyone who's posted. And I do like the Magic Strikes spell.

ArcturusV said he'd rather be 100 feet away. I was looking at semi-related buffs, and they were almost all Touch, so I didn't even consider Long range. But on second thought, I don't want my low-level wizard to be _that_ far away from his beefy fighter and cleric friends, because then one semi-smart party of orcs + one set of blown Spot and Listen checks = one dead wizard.