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Indoril
2007-01-01, 12:18 AM
Would the "Wild" armor enchantment (3.5DMG pg 219) work for a lycanthrope? I know it says wild shape, but they don't say if it works for lycanthropes or not.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-01, 12:28 AM
Wild Shape is an ability distinct from Alternate Form. It does not work for a lycanthrope unless that lycanthrope is using Wild Shape as gained through Druid levels or other sources.

Indoril
2007-01-01, 12:32 AM
Aww, oh well. Thanks.

NEO|Phyte
2007-01-01, 12:46 AM
Personally, I would say that it can be used for Lycanthropes.

Wizardry

This special ring comes in four kinds (ring of wizardry I, ring of wizardry II, ring of wizardry III, and ring of wizardry IV), all of them useful only to arcane spellcasters. The wearer’s arcane spells per day are doubled for one specific spell level. A ring of wizardry I doubles 1st-level spells, a ring of wizardry II doubles 2nd-level spells, a ring of wizardry III doubles 3rd-level spells, and a ring of wizardry IV doubles 4th-level spells. Bonus spells from high ability scores or school specialization are not doubled.

Moderate (wizardry I) or strong (wizardry II-IV) (no school); CL 11th (I), 14th (II), 17th (III), 20th (IV); Forge Ring, limited wish; Price 20,000 gp (I), 40,000 gp (II), 70,000 gp (III), 100,000 gp (IV).
Skin of the Claw

This psychoactive skin benefits only a wearer who has levels in psychic warrior. If such a character wears this skin, he can activate the claws of the beast power at will, as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. He can also dismiss the claws equally quickly.

Faint psychometabolism; ML 4th; Craft Universal Item, claws of the beast; Price 16,000 gp; Weight 2 lb. Complete Adventurer possesses the 'Beastskin' armor enchantment, which explicitly requires the Wild Shape class ability to use.

A ring of wizardry is only useful to arcane casters. A psychoactive skin of the claw is only useful to psychic warriors. Beastskin armor is only useful to druids. Who can benefit from Wild armor?

Wild

The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be made covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.

Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, baleful polymorph; Price +3 bonus. Anyone that is capable of entering 'a wild shape'. Unless there is a FAQ/Errata clarification, what a wild shape is is up to the DM. I know how I'd rule it.

Toliudar
2007-01-01, 05:16 AM
Personally, I would say that it can be used for Lycanthropes.

Anyone that is capable of entering 'a wild shape'. Unless there is a FAQ/Errata clarification, what a wild shape is is up to the DM. I know how I'd rule it.

I would argue the opposite: that unless there is a good reason to assume that the reference to "a" wild shape refers to anything other than the druid ability of the so-nearly-identical name, the ability should be narrowly focused on druids using wildshape.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-01, 06:18 AM
It should work for any ability that allows one to qualify for feats "as though they had Wild Shape".

VoxPVoxD@gmail.com
2007-01-01, 07:01 AM
Well, considering Wild Shape was errata'd to function as Alternate Form, it's a very reasonable houserule, but unless you really stretch the semantics I don't think that's what the RAW say.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-01, 12:18 PM
That strikes me a bit like saying a potion of alter self should allow you to duplicate polymorph because polymorph is based off of alter self "except as noted here" (same phrase appears in both polymorph and Wild Shape).

One of the places that Wild Shape varies from Alternate form is the following:

Wild Shape (Su): ... Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.

vs.


Alternate Form (Su): ... Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

This is the most telling reason wild armor does not work with a lycanthrope. Any armor the lycanthrope wears will fall to the ground when it takes its animal form.

Remember, the wild has nothing to do with the armor merging into the druid's new form. That's all from the Wild Shape ability. All wild does is allow the armor to be functional rather than nonfunctional.

Zincorium
2007-01-01, 01:26 PM
Best solution: come up with a new enchantment that costs exactly the same as wild and lets lycanthropes keep it's bonus. Anyone see a problem with that?

TheOOB
2007-01-01, 02:25 PM
I've never had problums with lycanthrope eq, most magical eq resizes to fit the wearer, so when shapeshifting it will resize.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-01, 05:50 PM
Best solution: come up with a new enchantment that costs exactly the same as wild and lets lycanthropes keep it's bonus. Anyone see a problem with that?
Since you have to also add the "melds with an inappropriate form" ability, I'd suggesting making it more expensive. That ability alone would be useful regardless of what happens to the armor bonus.


I've never had problums with lycanthrope eq, most magical eq resizes to fit the wearer, so when shapeshifting it will resize.
Remember, it's not just about resizing. It's also about having an appropriate body. A werewolf in wolf form will have trouble wearing human-shaped leather armor regardless of its size.

Winged One
2007-01-01, 06:20 PM
I probably got the price wrong, but this should be what you want. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30861)

Zherog
2007-01-01, 09:48 PM
That strikes me a bit like saying a potion of alter self should allow you to duplicate polymorph...

Poor example, though, because it's against the rules to make a potion of alter self. :smallwink:

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-02, 11:59 AM
And you find this... where?

Rigeld2
2007-01-02, 12:26 PM
ignore this post

Thomas
2007-01-02, 12:30 PM
And you find this... where?

The rules?


CREATING POTIONSThe creator of a potion needs a level working surface and at least a few containers in which to mix liquids, as well as a source of heat to boil the brew. In addition, he needs ingredients. The costs for materials and ingredients are subsumed in the cost for brewing the potion—25 gp x the level of the spell x the level of the caster. All ingredients and materials used to brew a potion must be fresh and unused. The character must pay the full cost for brewing each potion. (Economies of scale do not apply.)
The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.


Alter Self
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal

squishycube
2007-01-02, 12:34 PM
You can have potions of alter self:
d20SRD - Brew Potion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#brewPotion)

You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures
Ah! You mean like Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm)?


EDIT, see Thomas' post.

Doh, that's the second time today I found contradicting rules in the PHB!

I'd go with the rule in Brew Potion, it seems closer to "primary source" even though there is officially no such thing within one book.

Thomas
2007-01-02, 12:38 PM
That's from "Creating Magic Items" in the DMG. You know, the bit of the book that actually has the RULES for creating magic items? The ones you'd refer to when actually doing it? The PHB and the Brew Potion feat don't detail the limitations and other rules of actually creating magic items.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-02, 12:49 PM
That's certainly not a line I've ever noticed before.

And it makes little sense from a conceptual standpoint. A spell inside a potion effectively becomes a "Personal" range spell anyway. As such, it seems Personal spells should be the primary source for potions.

All this seems to be geared at is keeping Personal Range spells out of the hands of non-spellcasters (unless maybe you have an appropriate scroll and ranks in Use Magic Device. :smallyuk:).

Shazzbaa
2007-01-02, 01:08 PM
This is the most telling reason wild armor does not work with a lycanthrope. Any armor the lycanthrope wears will fall to the ground when it takes its animal form.

Remember, the wild has nothing to do with the armor merging into the druid's new form. That's all from the Wild Shape ability. All wild does is allow the armor to be functional rather than nonfunctional.

Ahhh. Okay, I follow -- "Wild" enchantment doesn't help lycanthropes. That makes sense. I'll spend the money on something else then. :smalltongue:


Best solution: come up with a new enchantment that costs exactly the same as wild and lets lycanthropes keep its bonus. Anyone see a problem with that?
"Hello, shopkeeper. I'd like to buy armour specifically made for lycanthropes. Why? Uh..... no reason...."

Shazzbaa
2007-01-02, 02:42 PM
I've never had problums with lycanthrope eq, most magical eq resizes to fit the wearer, so when shapeshifting it will resize.

Changing to animal or hybrid form ruins the character's armour and clothing (including any items worn) if the new form is larger than the character's natural form. (...) Magic armour survives the change if it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

So I'm not sure that the resizing applies. I'd guess lycanthropy involves a more violent shape-change than others, but you could stick whatever flavour you wanted on that. All the same, I'd think that equipment always runs the risk of breaking.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thomas
2007-01-02, 02:43 PM
That's certainly not a line I've ever noticed before.

And it makes little sense from a conceptual standpoint. A spell inside a potion effectively becomes a "Personal" range spell anyway. As such, it seems Personal spells should be the primary source for potions.

All this seems to be geared at is keeping Personal Range spells out of the hands of non-spellcasters (unless maybe you have an appropriate scroll and ranks in Use Magic Device. :smallyuk:).

You can houserule it however you want. I'm just telling you what the real rules are, and the fact that you haven't read them seems pretty irrelevant. If you do houserule it, that's great, but it's still not a useful example in discussions about the game in general.

Zincorium
2007-01-02, 03:09 PM
"Hello, shopkeeper. I'd like to buy armour specifically made for lycanthropes. Why? Uh..... no reason...."

Well, usually in the games I've been in there are very few NPCs who make magic items, and almost none of them are purely mercenary/mercantile. We can occasionally persuade the mages guild to try something if it sounds interesting, but even then it's expensive. Mostly my suggestion would be if you have an artificer or a spellcaster in the party that makes magic items, who you could bargain with, and probably wouldn't be surprised you're a lycanthrope.

On the other hand, what you said would be incredibly funny.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-02, 05:06 PM
I'm just telling you what the real rules are, and the fact that you haven't read them seems pretty irrelevant.
Oh, I've read the rules. Just seems I read the wrong paragraphs. As has pointed out, they do conflict. :smallyuk:

Tokiko Mima
2007-01-02, 05:47 PM
Yeah, I chalk it up to poorly designed rules, much like the one that prevents you from shapechanging into a ghost, but lets you turn into almost any other incorporeal undead (wraith, spectres, allips) just fine, because ghosts are a template. Something magical about templated creatures prevents you from copying them, I suppose, at least according to RAW.

Thomas
2007-01-02, 07:30 PM
The section dealing with the specific subject (creating potions) gives additional detail compared to the sections covering the existence of potions and the feat that allows you to use the rules for creating potions. That's not a conflict.

It almost certainly exists for play balance reasons, and to maintain the simple consistency that Personal spell effects can't be given to someone else. (Except familiars, since they can share it so long as they stay close.)

Zherog
2007-01-02, 07:46 PM
Oh, I've read the rules. Just seems I read the wrong paragraphs. As has pointed out, they do conflict. :smallyuk:

Sweet! Thomas saved me from most of the work on this! :biggrin:

Anyway... they don't conflict. The complete rules for creating magic items can be found in the DMG. The Player's Handbook contains the descriptions of the feats that are needed as part of the item creation process.

Thomas
2007-01-02, 08:02 PM
Anyway... they don't conflict. The complete rules for creating magic items can be found in the DMG. The Player's Handbook contains the descriptions of the feats that are needed as part of the item creation process.

Yeah. I'd like to see anyone creating magic items using just the PHB. The Brew Potion feat just refers to and describes, in abridged form, the actual rules in the DMG.