PDA

View Full Version : Help! What to do with an errant crown prince?



Altair_the_Vexed
2013-10-12, 01:36 PM
Players in my game should shoo away home, and stop reading here!

I have a dilemma - I want to portray a realistic reaction of a King in my setting, who receives word that his son and heir has committed a capital crime.
I know what I think his options are, and I understand the events that will fall out depending on his decisions - but I think I'm too close to the story to make the realistic decision.
I think I will be more inclined to have the King act according to some preferred plot line I want to pursue, and I think it'd be good to get a crowd-sourced opinion on what actions the King might take instead.

So - please take a look over the set up, and let me know what you would have the King do.

Here's the set up:
(Don't worry about game system - it's a low magic setting, with very rare non-humans. Magic, if available to either side, is not your D&D magic.)

The game is a late medieval, pseudo-European milieu, just beginning to see the sparks of renaissance as the works of the Old Civilisation are rediscovered.
The monarchy rules only so much as the patriarchy permits - the land is in effect, a theocracy, with secular admin, and some military rule by the aristocrats. This state has persisted for dozens of generations, and is reinforced by the state of holy war with a neighbouring "evil" theocracy - the resident Patriarchy are best placed to fight the pagan threat.
The secular and patriarchal forces are about equal in size, both quite large, well trained and well fed, and have been enjoying a lull in the Holy War with the neighbours for a dozen years or so.
The Patriarchy, in rooting out spies of the pagan enemy, have raised an Inquisition. This Inquisition is greatly feared, and if some revolutionary thinkers are to be believed, is rumoured to act cruelly and outside the law, invoking the name of their god while gather loot and spoils.
The country in question is geographically isolated from other influences, except for the pagan enemy.
The King is a good friend of the Patriarch - they meet often to discuss state matters, and as friends. The Patriarch is old enough to be an uncle or father figure to the King, but they are both relatively old men.
The Crown Prince is a military officer, well groomed for his future role as King, but still young enough to be a little headstrong and wanting to prove himself.
The Crown Prince has a younger brother and sister - they are as yet not involved in this event.

The Message:
The King receives a message, written in the Crown Prince's own hand, that says:

Your Majesty, my Father:

In my visits to our lands, I chanced upon a band of Patriarchal Inquisitors, who were in the act of despoiling a rustic festival, flogging and imprisoning our people, and erecting a pyre with which to burn the rural leaders.

I confronted the Sister Inquisitor, and demanded she stop treating our subjects so cruelly. She denied my authority, and bade her soldiers persist. When I pressed my authority, she directed her minions to seize me.

After the Inquisition soldiers were killed and scattered by my bodyguard, I captured the Sister, and have made myself fast and secure in an allied fortress, the location of which I shall not divulge in writing for fear of interception of this letter.

I ask that you intercede with the Patriarch, to preserve our good name.

In fidelity, your loving son,
(signed Crown Prince)

The question:
If you, as King of your land, received such a letter from your son and heir, what would you do?

EDIT: Replied below (link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16208155&postcount=7)) to add some clarification / expansion in answer to questions.

Berenger
2013-10-12, 01:51 PM
The first question in a "medieval" setting has to be: Is there (ingame) precedence for such an occurrence?

How much is your monarchy dominated by the faith? Is it clear who was "in charge" and who was "disobedient", the prince or the inquisitor? Anyway, the reaction depends mostly on the personality of the king and on what the king thinks he can get away.

oudeis
2013-10-12, 02:54 PM
Ooh, neat.

You've explained the balance/allocation of power pretty well, so I think a lot is going to depend on the attitudes of the populace, especially the commoners. Which is more popular, the Throne or the Church? Or, in real world terms, which is less hated/more feared? :smallsmile:

Do the small folk support the order of things or are they clamoring for some change? This will depend in large part on the role that religion plays in the country. Does God make manifest HIS presence, or do the priests simply cast spells and assure the faithful that everything is as it should be? Do they worship/accept the existence of only the one god? Most gameworlds tend to keep deities at a distance, in which case the population will be much more receptive to the notion of change/revolt. For that matter, how dogmatic is the Patriarch? Did he get his position by being the truest of the true believers or by being the most skillful politician? Again, this will depend on how involved God is with earthly matters. Did SHE ordain the way of things or was it conceived by man?

How does the King feel about the distribution of power? How do the other secular lords? If there's resentment/rivalry/hostility between the aristocracy and the Hierarchy- by the way, if you have female inquisitors you might want to use that instead of Patriarchy- there may be some powerful nobles who have been itching for a chance to take the church down, or at least down a few pegs. If you have a devout populace, it's unlikely the King could count on the support of the nobility, some of whom might be fine with the authority of the Hierarchs and all of whom would have to recruit their armies from amongst the population. If the natives are restless, however, the time might be ripe for the King to take matters into his own hand.

This being a fantasy world, the magical powers of the Church are going to present a real problem for any mundane military. Are there Arcane casters in the kingdom? Without some counterbalance to divine spellcasters any attempt to engage the Hierarchs in open warfare would be tantamount to mass suicide.

What are the in-game precedents for conflicts of authority between the Church and the Nobles (edit- rats, beaten by Berenger)? Any longstanding arrangement such as the one you propose would almost certainly have encountered and dealt with similar situations in the past (though perhaps not with the heir to the kingdom) or anticipated such matters and established a framework for dealing with them. Does the Hierarchy own any of the land, or does it consider the entire country to be at least nominally under their rule? If they own discrete tracts of land than their authority would be absolute in those areas and subject to contravention in the fiefdoms; if they think that their laws hold sway over the whole of the land then any challenge to their authority would be considered heresy, even if it's the King.

Sorry to answer your questions with more questions, but as the saying goes the devil is in the details (though that might be a bad way to put it in game :smallsmile:).

Berenger
2013-10-12, 03:07 PM
I forgot the "What would you do?" part.

1. I'd consult my friend, the Patriarch, to hear both his opinion and the probable opinions amongst the clergy (I assume there are different factions in such a large institution).

2. a) If "Burn the heretic!" is the only, non-negotiable outcome, I'd secretly arrange to sneak my son out of country into exile. Otherwise I'd risk to see my child burn on the stake or my country burn in a civil war.


or

2. b) If there is social and legal wiggle room, I'd try to locate my son and send a large cavalry escort to accompany him and the Sister Inquisitor safely to my court to hear them both. If they still accuse each other (And didn't fall in love or something, hey, this is fantasy!) there would have to be some proper trial to clear my sons name. When the risk of an unfair or too harsh punishment for my son arises, I'd try to pull strings.

TriForce
2013-10-12, 03:09 PM
there are several things to consider here. firstly of all, the king himself. does he know about the upcoming changes the renaisance might bring? does he fear his position if that happens? how high does he value his position vs the patriach vs the son vs his people? how high does he think the chances are to cover all this up ? does he think he can change the way of thinking his son has? is he the type to use the situation in order to grab more power? (by rallying the people vs the patriach and installing him or his son as a hero of the people) what ARE the dangers of a short time of instability of his nation? (would the pagan nation attack?) how much of a believer is the king?

Malimar
2013-10-12, 04:50 PM
If they still accuse each other [...] there would have to be some proper trial to clear my sons name.

And, as we all know from from reading A Song Of Ice And Fire, the best way to clear a person's name, regardless of actual guilt, is trial by combat. If I were the king, this is what I would demand (presuming I have a suitably skilled warrior to serve as my son's champion, or he's skilled enough that he can champion himself).

One can do trial by combat as a primarily religious trial -- overseen by a priest, who prays for the relevant deities to protect the innocent's champion and guide the guilty's champion's blade, etc. -- so it could make the church happy, too. (Unless the deities are known to actually intercede in these sorts of things, in which case this may be a bad idea.)

Bonus points if a PC is one of the champions. Double bonus points if both champions are PCs.

Altair_the_Vexed
2013-10-13, 02:29 AM
Thanks for all the replies so far! Plenty of food for thought there.

To clear up a couple of questions:

Power of the god(s)
Neither the god of the Patriarchy, nor the pagan gods, ever clearly manifest their power. Miracles are rumoured, and reported in scripture, but few have ever seen one.

Authority:
Nominally, the Patriarchy has power over the Monarchy - their authority comes direct from the One True God, which is supposed to be the only faith of the land.

Precedent:
The Monarchy was once supreme, but the Patriarchy seized power in a crisis, some centuries past.
At the start of the Holy War with the Pagan Enemy, the Queen of that time died in battle, without issue, and the Patriarchy took power, ruling over the noble houses and ordering that phase of the Holy War.
When a new heir was found and all the noble houses were brought into agreement, the Patriarch did not give up his position at the top.

Support among the populace
Split - the commoners are not particularly fussed who orders them around,
The Patriarchy offers hope and salvation, and protection from evil - but the brutality of the Inquisition is a great source of fear and hatred. Of course, there are some commoners who get swept up in a mob frenzy by priests.

Support among the nobility
Somewhat split - there are a few nobles who would side with the Patriarchy immediately (they would hope to gain higher status after the dust settles), but most nobles are loyal to their King.
Some nobles may be actively plotting reform and the return of Monarchical supremacy - but this is not well known. The King's spies will only have heard unconfirmed rumours of this.

Feo
2013-10-13, 03:47 AM
The Patriarch, in routing out spies of the pagan enemy, have raised and Inquisition. This Inquisition is greatly feared, and if some revolutionary thinkers are to be believed, is rumoured to act cruelly and outside the law, invoking the name of their god while gather loot and spoils.



IŽd say it depends on how evil the Inquisition really is (or how evil the king believes them to be).IF the "evil" acts are really just rumors (or are perceived by the king as such) he would most likely intercede for his son and against the "fallen" inquisitor.

oudeis
2013-10-13, 04:29 AM
To answer the question you raised at the beginning of all this, I'm not sure what I would do if I were king, but then I'm not convinced that he is going to have a lot of choice in the matter.

Being somewhat informed about human history and pretty immersed in current politics, I am naturally a complete cynic about human nature, so I'm proceeding from the premise that war is inevitable in this situation. I'm sure that much was readily apparent in my previous post :smallredface:. It's also hard for me to credit that the Patriarchy would ever have ceded anything but the most ceremonial authority back to anybody without a bloody war. Like Mel Brooks said, 'It's good to be the King'. Now the Crown Prince has openly broken the law, murdered faithful servants of the Patriarch in lawful furtherance of their sacred duties, and defied the authority of the Church? Off with his head!

With the circumstances you have laid out, though, the outcome will largely depend on the religious devotion of the King and the Patriarch, as others have pointed out. If the King loves his son and the Patriarch loves his friend/protege they are going to try to find some way to resolve this without bloodshed. The question then becomes do they have that option? If religious doctrine doesn't admit of exceptions and if the king is unwilling or unable to withstand the prerogative of the church then the prince is dead. Have you written out the specific law he violated? There has to have been previous incidents where secular and religious authority were in conflict, by the way you've set things up. Once you've made things more explicit it might help in further clarifiying the issue. It wouldn't hurt to come up with a rough version of the Faith's principal doctrines as well.

Are there are other players in the realm powerful enough to tip the scales one way or the other? A loyal counselor to the king, an ambitious noble chafing at the arrogance of the church, an absolutist rival of the Patriarch, the Prince's boyhood friend/secret girlfriend (or boyfriend) now high in the ranks of the church, etc? All of these could have an impact. They would also make things a lot more complicated, and that could turn creating a campaign background into writing a novel, so I would be wholly in sympathy if you were to avoid such complications.

You've left out any mention of arcane magic here. Are they the pagan forces the church is working so hard to destroy? I believe that war is the likely outcome but without some magical support the secular nobles would need much bigger armies than the Patriarchs to avoid being wiped from the field.

As I was writing this a 'Coriolanus'-type story suggested itself to me. The Prince flees to the pagan lands and allies with the enemies of the Patriarchy to bring them down. Or how about Prince Nuada from 'Hellboy II', who struck down the father he loved and respected for what he saw as the survival of his people?

I think that ultimately you are going to have to simply choose the outcome here. The situation would support bloodless and bloody resolutions equally. If you think that things would be solved peacefully that would be entirely in keeping with what you've set forth. If you feel that this a darker world then he gets put to death and the King becomes a shell of a man broken by grief and a figurehead. If you want to keep the character you put a lot of effort into creating alive for future use then the setting gives you the latitude to simply decide that he lives. It would also create dramatic tension and/or the stage for a sea-change in the game if the Prince stays in his fortress and forces allied and opposed to him start to coalesce around his position, both politically and literally. These are all equally canonical, in my opinion, so it comes down to what you want to happen. Personally, I'm hoping he lives and brings justice and freedom to the realm.

Let us know what you decide.

hymer
2013-10-13, 05:37 AM
I would start looking for facts. What actually happened? Is someone being influenced or impersonated? Is someone ill?
I'd also be straight up with my patriarchal friend/mentor about what is going on, and adamant (as I would expect him to be) that we get to the bottom of this incident - and quickly.
I would also be worried that this is the prelude to renewed war. Striking at the crown prince in a subtle way could well be the doing of the pagans. A rift between the patriarchy and the monarchy is a serious weakening of the state, whether caused by the enemy or not.

If I was particularly mystically/religiously inclined, I would be looking particularly into evil magic from the pagans, demonic mindscrewing/temptation/possession and look to what prophecies might be around.
If I was particularly agnostically inclined, my working hypothesis would be that the inquisition had finally been caught in the act, and expect my patriarchic mentor/friend to support me in finding out if that is the case.

In either case, I would be an old king having led my nation in war and peace for a long time, not likely to let my emotions or initial gut instinct stand in the way of good evidence.

PS: Nifty situation, btw. Cudos.

erikun
2013-10-13, 06:58 AM
Well, the first thing I'd do it to consider which side is "Correct, by the eyes of the law." While the patriachy might be the ruling power, this doesn't necessarily mean that an inquisitor could casually ignore the demands of the prince. For that matter, with all the inquisitors dead, the "witness testimony" could be limited to what the prince himself has to say, which pretty much means that he would get off without a problem.

How are issues and conflicts resolved in this setting? If there is a trial by combat or some other trial to determine guilt, the prince could take that to prove his innocence.

If either of the above are the case, then the king would likely set up such a trial with the patriach and encourage the prince to attend. If that isn't the case, or in the patriachy insists on total control of the situation, then you'd probably have a power struggle between the two. How the king handles it depends on the relative strength of the two - if the king can easily overpower the patriach, then he's likely to make demands. If the patriach can easily overpower the king, then he's likely to make shadow provisions for the prince while publicly supporting the patriach.

Remember, though, that nothing is true in a campaign until the players encounter it. Feel free to pick the scenario that results in the most interesting direction the campaign can take, unless that scenario has already been ruled out by facts the PCs have already encountered.

mig el pig
2013-10-13, 10:29 AM
Another option is forcing the prince to undergo a penance like Henry IV of the holy roman empire or Henry II of England who even received lashes for the death of Thomas Becket.