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View Full Version : What if Tier 1 and 2 classes required actual study to enter?



paddyfool
2013-10-18, 06:21 AM
I've thought before about making Tier 1 and 2s into prestige classes, and these are the rough ideas of how I'd like to do it:

- At level 1, all characters may choose to take any 1 skill as an origin skill. This skill always counts as a class skill no matter what class the character is. All base classes also get +1 skill point per level.

- Wizard tweak: Now a 17-level prestige class (first 17 levels of Wizard), with a prerequisite of 6 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and the ability to read.

- Cleric tweak: Same, but with a prerequisite of 6 ranks in Knowledge (religion)

- Druid: 6 ranks in Knowledge (nature)

- Sorcerer: 5 ranks in Concentration

- etc. (I haven't spelled out the non-core options due to less familiarity with them; the general idea was to grant level 9 spells or similar at level 20; some classes will require a little more of a tweak, e.g. bumping their capstones down a few levels so characters can still get said abilities at level 20).

Now, if this was done... what tricks could people use for fast entry or for making up for lost time when they entered? What would be the best base classes for entry into each? Would anyone actually want to play this, and if they did, would they actually want to go into a tier 1 at level 4, when it becomes an option?

EDIT: One option for making entry a tiny bit more expensive, especially from less-related classes, would be if the free origin skill and skill point was a level one-only feat option rather than being given away for free...

Morph Bark
2013-10-18, 06:38 AM
Most Tier 1s and 2s are weaker at levels 1-4, and some even up to level 7, after which they start pulling ahead. You'd need to make up for that, otherwise the 3 level delay won't be worth it in actual play for most players if you start at early levels.

Tricks for fast entry aren't there, as there is no way to increase your maximum amount of skill ranks. There might be a higher-leveled way to instantly gain an amount of ranks in a skill, though, but that wouldn't be fast-entry.

I do think that many people would just take a Tier 3 caster, then go into one of these, and then Theurge it up, as that would be better than go straight Wizard/Cleric/Sorcerer/Druid.

Just to Browse
2013-10-18, 06:40 AM
You make casting impossible at levels 1-3, then terribad at levels 4-7, and it continues to be the epic win it was beforehand afterwards.

paddyfool
2013-10-18, 06:46 AM
The biggest way I see to cheat this limitation would be to use Ur-priest, Sublime Chord or other prestige class options for spellcasting power to sidestep the base classes' route to power entirely. (And these would probably have to be either banned, or made correspondingly more difficult to enter).

If this is too much of a nerf in the level 4-7 window, would it help at all to grant more skill points, HP, bonus feats etc., plus having Turn Undead, and Familiars function as if their [respective class level] was 3 higher, do you think? (Not so sure about shapechanging and animal companions, as these could probably do with the nerf anyway).


You make casting impossible at levels 1-3

Almost. Casting in fact becomes the province of partial casters, such as the warmage, duskblade, beguiler, and bard, only at levels 1 to 2 in this system. Tier 2s get in on the action at level 3, and Tier 1s at level 4.


then terribad at levels 4-7

This is where I'm seeing the biggest potential problem. Do you have any idea on how to smooth out this window?


, and it continues to be the epic win it was beforehand afterwards.

If you're taking a cut-off at level 8, the best they'll have are level 2 spells. These are all very well, but epic win may be pushing it. At very high levels, full-casting goes back to being gamebreaking, but I'm hoping it would take a little longer, granting a longer window of play before being anything else becomes kind of pointless.

johnbragg
2013-10-18, 07:38 AM
This would eliminate Wizard dips, which can help a fighter keep up to some extent.

In a low-wealth, centuries-after-the-Cataclysm campaign, my TWF, doubleaxe-wielding fighter realized that taking a level of Wizard at the local academy would make him a much more effective beatstick than the third level of fighter. Sure enough, opening round "I Cast Shield" once per day was worth the hit to BAB and HP. (Not to mention the Will save boost). Then the 4th level feat and stat boost made the suck of Fighter 3 less noticeable.

I don't remember if 3.0 still had the light-armor restrictions, or if we couldn't afford good armor yet anyway, or if I just sucked up the chance of spell failure. But the +4 Shield bonus was a huge boost.

ArcturusV
2013-10-18, 05:36 PM
Honestly I'm thinking that with a system like that one of the better base class entries into caster PrCs would be savage progressions and monster classes. I don't think if you instituted a system like that people are going to go 3 levels of Rogue into Wizard or the like. The stat buffs from some monster classes means that they could help eat some of the weakness at level 4 by having a higher casting stat, which would help, have a source of some basic survival stuff like Natural Attacks, increased Armor, etc.

Other option is to effectively "cheat" with Racial PrCs. If I started the game as an Half Dragon Paragon, when I take Sorcerer at level 3 I'll already have the spellcasting power of a third level sorcerer. Granted, eating the LA from Half-Dragon. But if your game starts at higher level, particularly with LA buy off on the table or the like, I can see that being an option someone might take.

Amnoriath
2013-10-18, 06:09 PM
Then like what was said before you just shift down the exponential curve by 3 levels. Vancian casting's problem is that it isn't reliable at all in the low levels while in the end not putting a higher cost for higher level spells.

Kaiisaxo
2013-10-18, 06:37 PM
I just say that requiring study for sorcerers and favored souls defeats the whole point of them as classes (something you are instead of something you choose to be).

Rainbownaga
2013-10-18, 07:22 PM
Honestly I'm thinking that with a system like that one of the better base class entries into caster PrCs would be savage progressions and monster classes. I don't think if you instituted a system like that people are going to go 3 levels of Rogue into Wizard or the like. The stat buffs from some monster classes means that they could help eat some of the weakness at level 4 by having a higher casting stat, which would help, have a source of some basic survival stuff like Natural Attacks, increased Armor, etc


La doesnt come with skills; taking la is no better than normal unless there is another way to cheat or you are using homebrew monster classes

edit: I see the RHD is going to suck less, but LA is still the same and you need a class with 3 or less hd since you generally cant leave early.

ArcturusV
2013-10-18, 08:01 PM
Well take something like.... the Vampire Spawn monster class. I can still enter Sorcerer PrC at level 4 off it (instead of three). I get d12 HD for life (And other undead traits), free feat, slam attack, Natural Armor +2, blood drain, skill bonus (On top of whatever race I was prior in life), +4 Cha and +2 Str and Dex (On top of prior racials), spider climb at will, +2 Turn resistance, and +1 Natural Armor.

Which strikes me as not a bad deal for a PrC entry if you wanted to run as a Sorcerer.

johnbragg
2013-10-18, 08:15 PM
I just say that requiring study for sorcerers and favored souls defeats the whole point of them as classes (something you are instead of something you choose to be).

You could always fluff that as being chosen later in life. (I'm assuming the version of the idea Tier 1/2 Caster is a prestige class, so you're a Fighter or an Expert or a Rogue or whatever for the first few levels.)

Oh, looking back at the OP's original question, for an Arcane Caster, I'd ask if I could play an Adept. I'd have cantrips to play with, I could still cast Sleep or Command once a day. I'd have my familiar at second level. If you're starting at a level where 2 more 1st level spells is a big deal, I'd say Adept.

Another very good option is Rogue--you get skill points, you're not dependent on armor that you have to dump to cast arcane spells. And since you have Sneak Attack dice anyway, you can tailor your spell lists--stack your Sneak Attack dice with Shocking Grasp, maybe.

For Cleric, Rogue for 1st level (skill points, sneak attack), fighter for 2nd and 3rd.

Druid doesn't really need the fighter bonus feats, or much of anything off the ranger list. So probably 1st level, a wilderness-oriented rogue for the skill points and Sneak Attack. Then, why not a Barbarian level to get Rage? Rage and Wildshape has some possibilities. For the third level, either Rogue 2 to get Evasion, or maybe Monk to get the Wisdom bonus to AC.

Pyromancer999
2013-10-18, 11:33 PM
It would seem Welknair's NPC Prestige Classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10951428&postcount=115) are what you're wanting.

Basically, they're low-level, 5- level prestige classes that NPCs should have to take before being allowed to take levels in an associated tier 1 or 2 class. Change this to being required for PCs, and you've met your goal.

IronFist
2013-10-19, 01:16 AM
There is a variant for this in Complete Warrior. It even uses 3rd level as an entry point.

Eldan
2013-10-19, 05:57 AM
Could work. I thought about doing something similar. One thing I'd definitely do is start level 1 casters, i.e. X3/Caster 1 off with more spell slots. I'd say about four level 1 spells per day, before bonus spells. Otherwise, if you expect a campaign to go to level 8 or 10, maybe, as many do, it's just not worth it to go out of your normal class to cast two first level spell per day. Only for first and maybe second level spells, though.

Cantrips would be an interesting question, in this. How about making them available from level 1, perhaps via a feat or trait? They aren't remotely as gamebreaking as proper spells, for hte most part, but fun to play around with.

Just to Browse
2013-10-19, 07:28 PM
Ah, if you're cutting them off at 2nd level spells then they will always be pretty terrible and you might as well not include them.

If you want to make casters a viable t3-4 option, you need to rewrite them. There are no other options.

Kaiisaxo
2013-10-21, 05:09 PM
You could always fluff that as being chosen later in life. (I'm assuming the version of the idea Tier 1/2 Caster is a prestige class, so you're a Fighter or an Expert or a Rogue or whatever for the first few levels.)


But what do I do to express the fluff then? I'm not against this for tier 1s which are very learned and practiced classes anyway, but by refflufing sorcerers and FSs to be other thing, their original fluff becomes orphaned (How do you express them then???). Moreover they are already very slow to get on their feet at low levels (Favored soul 2 is a very empty level, so is Sorcerer 3)

johnbragg
2013-10-21, 05:56 PM
But what do I do to express the fluff then? I'm not against this for tier 1s which are very learned and practiced classes anyway, but by refflufing sorcerers and FSs to be other thing, their original fluff becomes orphaned (How do you express them then???). Moreover they are already very slow to get on their feet at low levels (Favored soul 2 is a very empty level, so is Sorcerer 3)

Sorcerers powers just manifest later. The have Dragon or Fey or Aasmiar or whatever blood, but that only starts coming into play after they gain a few levels.

The powers who choose Favored Souls do their choosing after a few levels.

Has no one in your campaigns ever taken a dip in Sorcerer or Favored Soul?