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View Full Version : Warlord: A war leader done correctly (PEACH)



nonsi
2013-10-20, 03:10 PM
HD: d10
{table=head]Level|
BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Motivation +1, Battle Hardened Commander, Tactical Leader

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Compelling Oratory (1 / day)

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Bonus Feat

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Grant move action (1 / encounter)

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Motivation +2

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Renewed Effort, Leadership

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Bonus Feat, Tactical Opportunity (1 / day)

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Grant move action (2 / encounter)

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Motivation +3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Compelling Oratory (2 / day)

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Bonus Feat

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Grant move action (3 / encounter)

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Motivation +4, Tactical Opportunity (2 / day)

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Indomitable Spirit

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus Feat

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|Grant move action (4 / encounter)

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Motivation +5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Compelling Oratory (3 / day)

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Bonus Feat, Tactical Opportunity (3 / day)

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Grant move action (5 / encounter)

[/table]



Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Warlords are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and all shields (except tower shields).


Class skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Geography, History, Nobility and Royalty, Local), Listen, Perform (Oratory), Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival and Swim.

Skill points per level: 4 + Int-mod



Motivation (Ex)
A warlord is a genius of warfare. He can always find the advantage in combat, and is exceptionally skillful at providing quick combat tips.
A warlord's Motivation modifier is +1 at 1st level and increases every four levels thereafter (at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th . . . and also into epic levels).
A warlord may boost a single effort of a single ally (self included) or hinder a single effort of a single foe vs. an ally (self included) once per round as a free action from the following list:
- Attack roll
- Damage score
- Combat maneuver (e.g. bull rush, trip or sunder)
- Saving throws (choose between Fort/Ref/Will)
- Skill check among: Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Ride
- Physical ability check
- Level check
- Crit confirmation
As a move action, a warlord may augment a second effort.
As a standard action, a warlord may augment a third effort.
Alternatively, as a full round action, a warlord may augment a specific effort for all allies against a single opponent until the beginning of his next turn.
A warlord must be able to perceive a given attempt in order to augment the effort.
The associated ally must be able to see and hear (and understand) the warlord to gain the full benefit of Motivation.
If an ally can see but not hear, or hear but not see the warlord, the warlord’s Motivation modifier takes a -3 reduction for that augmentation.
If one of the two senses is partially hindered (blurred vision or noisy environment), the warlord’s Motivation modifier takes a -1 reduction for that augmentation. If both are hindered, the warlord’s Motivation modifier takes a -2 reduction for that augmentation.
If one sense is inapplicable and the other is hindered, the warlord’s Motivation modifier takes a -4 reduction for that augmentation.

As a move action, a warlord may also augment one of the following, until the beginning of his next turn:
- Damage reduction
- Dodge AC
- Movement increase of 5’ per Motivation modifier
- Spell resistance 10 + twice his Motivation modifier + his Cha-bonus (disregard the base 10 in case of penalties, and if the recipient already has SR, the effects overlap, making only the higher bonus count).
- Temporary HP equal to five times his Motivation modifier (inapplicable for penalties)
As a standard action, a warlord may apply one of the above a second time.

In case of applied penalties, the augmented score cannot be lowered below 0.

No matter the effect, Motivation is always added last, after all calculations are finalized, meaning it is never multiplied by any means.


Battle Hardened Commander (Ex)
A warlord is more accustomed and mentally prepared to the din of battle than most others, and a good leader knows how to convey such notions to his soldiers and allies.
A warlord gains his Cha-bonus to all saves vs. negative emotional conditions and effects.
Furthermore, as long as the warlord is within sight and is not helpless, dead, fascinated, confused or dominated, all allies within line of sight share this benefit with him.


Tactical Leader (Ex)
A warlord excels at teamwork feats; and tactical feats, starting at 7th level (see Bonus Feat below).
At 1st level, a warlord gains a teamwork feat. A warlord must meet all the requirements of a chosen feat.
Furthermore, any adjacent ally (or an ally within you reach) automatically gains the benefits of a single teamwork (or tactical) feat of the warlord’s choice from his feats repertoire (all affected allies gain the benefits of the same feat).


Compelling Oratory (Ex)
Starting at 2nd level, once per day, while you are not in combat, you may give a rousing speech to your allies, inspiring them and convincing them that you will succeed at whatever task you must perform. Each allied creature who can see and/or hear you is cured of Fatigue condition (or has Exhaustion reduced to Fatigued) and gains a number of temporary hit points equal to half your level + your Cha-mod. These temporary hit points remain until they are expended, or until that ally falls asleep.
At 10th level and each 8 levels thereafter, you may use Compelling Oratory once more per day.
A warlord gains the benefits of Compelling Oratory, but may not initiate this power without audience.


Bonus Feat
At 3rd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a warlord gains a bonus feat. A warlord’s bonus feat must be either a teamwork feat or (starting at 7th level) a tactical feat.
Warlords grasp tactical and teamwork feats better than others.


Grant Move Action (Ex)
Starting at 4th level, once per encounter, a warlord may grant an ally (self included) a move action instead of Motivation.
At 8th level and each 4 levels thereafter, a warlord may grant a move action once more per encounter.


Renewed Effort (Ex)
As a standard action, a 6th level warlord may grant an ally (self included) a renewed saving throw (augmented by the warlord’s Motivation modifier) to thwart an ongoing temporary physical effect or a mental effect (sight & hearing rules are as given for Motivation).
Renewed Effort may only be applied once per effect.


Leadership
At 6th level, a warlord gains Leadership as a bonus feat.


Tactical Opportunity (Ex)
Starting at 7th level, once per day, instead of using Motivation, a warlord may either grant a single ally (self included) an extra standard action or grant all allies an immediate move action.
An extra standard action is only applicable for combat maneuvers on the battlefield. It may not by utilized for
spellcasting or for activation of (Su), (Sp) or (Ps) abilities.
At 13th level and each 6 levels thereafter, a warlord may use this ability once more per day.


Indomitable Spirit (Ex)
A 14th level warlord’s fighting spirit enables him to push himself beyond the normal limits of physical and mental endurance.
The warlord no longer automatically fails a saving throw on a roll of 1. He might still fail the save if his result fails to equal or beat the DC.
Also, the warlord becomes immune to fear.
Finally, the warlord also gains Indomitable Soul as bonus feat, even if he would not normally qualify for taking this feat.

asnys
2013-10-20, 04:31 PM
I've always liked the idea of the Marshal class, but not so much the execution. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one. :smallsmile: A few thoughts:



Class skills: Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival and Swim.

Stylistically, it might make sense to give them Bluff and Diplomacy too. A Warlord needs to be able to negotiate with other rulers as well as lead in battle.



Motivation (Ex)

I like the idea, but I think the implementation is maybe a little too complicated.


Tactical Opportunity (Ex)
Starting at 7th level, once per day, instead of using Motivation, a warlord may either grant a single ally (self included) an extra standard action or grant all allies an immediate move action.

This one worries me, because an extra standard action means an extra spell. I have this vision of an optimizer Wiz-20 dragging around a horde of Warlord-7's to all use Tactical Opportunity simultaneously. At the very least, there should be some restrictions on how often someone can receive its benefits.

It seems like the class should have some Leadership-related abilities, too - maybe even just get the feat for free at 6th level. Maybe also a multiplier on the number of followers, or reducing the level penalties for followers with PC classes.

Also, it could really use a cool 20th-level capstone.

ArcturusV
2013-10-20, 04:57 PM
Just a quick one. I actually think a Warlord could use more skills, and skill points. The class has the charisma based focus. And considering the typical role of Warlords in fiction, it would make sense to have Bluff and Diplomacy, as they tend to be charismatic fellows who can lure the hordes to their side, or glorious bastards of the battlefield who can lie, trick, and outwit their enemies.

Similarly some Knowledges would make sense, Royalty and Nobility, Local, Geography, History, all makes sense.

And oddly almost every character class, ever, has Craft. So it seems weird when a class doesn't have it. Yes it may not be insanely useful. It just seems odd when it's missing.

Similarly with a class focused on oratory and such, not having Perform seems like an odd choice.

nonsi
2013-10-20, 09:42 PM
Stylistically, it might make sense to give them Bluff and Diplomacy too. A Warlord needs to be able to negotiate with other rulers as well as lead in battle.

Definitely.


(Motivation)


I like the idea, but I think the implementation is maybe a little too complicated.

Actually, this ability practically encompasses all possible aura effects, but instead of "radiating" your impact on the battlefield, it comes in the form of combat instructions.
As for the complicated part - it's only really complicated when a recipient is sensorically hindered and the scenario is quite simple once you get the hang of it:
- -1 on partial sight or hearing
- -2 on zero sight or hearing.
- -3 on partial sight and hearing
- -4 on partial sight and zero hearing, or vice versa




This one worries me, because an extra standard action means an extra spell. I have this vision of an optimizer Wiz-20 dragging around a horde of Warlord-7's to all use Tactical Opportunity simultaneously. At the very least, there should be some restrictions on how often someone can receive its benefits.

Yes, guess I should ban spellcasting and the use of (Su), (Sp) and (Ps) abilities.




It seems like the class should have some Leadership-related abilities, too - maybe even just get the feat for free at 6th level. Maybe also a multiplier on the number of followers, or reducing the level penalties for followers with PC classes.

I'll put Leadership for now, and would welcome suggestions by how much to expand the number of followers.




Also, it could really use a cool 20th-level capstone.

I thought of it as well, but didn't have anything appropriate in mind.

nonsi
2013-10-20, 09:50 PM
Just a quick one. I actually think a Warlord could use more skills, and skill points.

More skills - yes. More skill points - no.
6 skill points per levels are reserved for skillmonkeys. I don't envision the warlord as such (even if Int is a dump stat... with so many class skills, maybe not).




The class has the charisma based focus. And considering the typical role of Warlords in fiction, it would make sense to have Bluff and Diplomacy, as they tend to be charismatic fellows who can lure the hordes to their side, or glorious bastards of the battlefield who can lie, trick, and outwit their enemies.

Bluff and Diplomacy are on.




Similarly some Knowledges would make sense, Royalty and Nobility, Local, Geography, History, all makes sense.

Added those too.




And oddly almost every character class, ever, has Craft. So it seems weird when a class doesn't have it. Yes it may not be insanely useful. It just seems odd when it's missing.

Craft is on as well.




Similarly with a class focused on oratory and such, not having Perform seems like an odd choice.

Added Perform (Oratory).
Other than that, I don't see any other type of performance as relevant for a warlord, but I could be mistaken on this one.

Vadskye
2013-10-20, 10:02 PM
For a capstone idea:
Rename "Indomitable Warmaster" to "Indomitable Spirit" or "Battle-Hardened".
New ability at 10th:
Warmaster
The warlord may affect two allies when using his Motivation ability. All allies must receive the same benefit.

New ability at 20th:
Grand Warmaster
The warlord may affect a number of allies equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier (mimum 3) when using his Motivation ability.

You might spread this out out these benefits through the levels a bit more - perhaps at 8th (two allies), 14th (three allies), 20th (3+Cha alllies).

I'd also dramatically simplify the Motivation mechanic. It's more complicated than it needs to be.

Just to Browse
2013-10-20, 10:12 PM
This class is very weak and empty. The bonuses don't get interesting or useful till +3, and at that point the people you want to buff are probably power attacking for full anyhow. The one thing that makes it useful is Leadership, which you could just take as a feat anyways (no, saving 1 feat does not make the class useful).

I peg it at Tier 5. Not much reason to use this over the marshal.

Vadskye
2013-10-20, 10:27 PM
This class is very weak and empty. The bonuses don't get interesting or useful till +3, and at that point the people you want to buff are probably power attacking for full anyhow. The one thing that makes it useful is Leadership, which you could just take as a feat anyways (no, saving 1 feat does not make the class useful).

I peg it at Tier 5. Not much reason to use this over the marshal.
This is also true.

nonsi
2013-10-21, 03:40 AM
This class is very weak and empty. The bonuses don't get interesting or useful till +3, and at that point the people you want to buff are probably power attacking for full anyhow. The one thing that makes it useful is Leadership, which you could just take as a feat anyways (no, saving 1 feat does not make the class useful).

I peg it at Tier 5. Not much reason to use this over the marshal.

What if the Motivation bonuses applied to all allies until the beginning of the warlord's next turn ?

nonsi
2013-10-21, 04:24 AM
Also, what if the bonus feats were any Fighter bonus feats and the warlord could share any feat with allies within reach ?

Just to Browse
2013-10-21, 10:32 AM
Then you approximately have a spell-less bard that with a slightly better to-hit bonus that can't be optimized.

Instead of just adding things to the class to try and make it good, I suggest figuring out what you want it to do in the first place.

asnys
2013-10-21, 11:36 AM
(Motivation)

Actually, this ability practically encompasses all possible aura effects, but instead of "radiating" your impact on the battlefield, it comes in the form of combat instructions.
As for the complicated part - it's only really complicated when a recipient is sensorically hindered and the scenario is quite simple once you get the hang of it:
- -1 on partial sight or hearing
- -2 on zero sight or hearing.
- -3 on partial sight and hearing
- -4 on partial sight and zero hearing, or vice versa

It's not just whether they're sensorily hindered. It's also: how many targets am I going to effect? What type of action does this require? It just seems like keeping all this in mind would bog things down. I would simplify it by making motivation require only one kind of action for all of its standard effects - probably a free action, like the Marshal's auras - and effect either all allies who can perceive you or all enemies who can perceive you. Should probably make it mind-effecting as well.

Should probably give higher bonuses, too. I understand the reluctance to just make it grant your Charisma mod, given the history of people taking exactly one level of Marshal, but it's at least a worth-while amount of bonus.


I'll put Leadership for now, and would welcome suggestions by how much to expand the number of followers.

One of the tricky things with followers is all the book-keeping it requires. Thinking about it, unless you want to make up some simplified mass-combat rules to go with it, I think it would be better to design it to have better followers rather than more of them.

One obvious buff would be to let your followers have PC class levels without penalties. I forget exactly how it worked - and they may have changed this in 3.5, it's been years since I checked this - but ordinarily your followers can only have NPC classes, and if they pick up a PC class they count as some levels higher.

Similarly, some kind of automatic bonuses if they're fighting where they can see the warlord, in addition to the Motivate effect. Maybe, as a higher-level ability, shift all columns in the follower table one space to the right - so if before you could have, say, 10 3rd-level followers and 2 4th, now you can have 10 4th and 2 5th.

It would still take a lot of book-keeping, but that's probably inevitable for any kind of "leader of armies" character unless they abstract out a lot.


I thought of it as well, but didn't have anything appropriate in mind.

Maybe some kind of "Last Stand" effect, where your allies/followers can keep fighting even after dropping into the negatives? Not sure that's good enough for a capstone.

nonsi
2013-10-21, 01:24 PM
It's not just whether they're sensorily hindered. It's also: how many targets am I going to effect? What type of action does this require? It just seems like keeping all this in mind would bog things down. I would simplify it by making motivation require only one kind of action for all of its standard effects - probably a free action, like the Marshal's auras - and effect either all allies who can perceive you or all enemies who can perceive you. Should probably make it mind-effecting as well.

You're right. I'm working on simplified mechanics and a lot more significant bonuses - something similar to the Marshal's auras only way better.




Should probably give higher bonuses, too. I understand the reluctance to just make it grant your Charisma mod, given the history of people taking exactly one level of Marshal, but it's at least a worth-while amount of bonus.

My current worry is cherry-picking and empty levels, but I have several ideas running in my head.
I think this would be mitigated by capping Motivation bonus to 1/2 level rounded up (i.e. +1 per odd level).




One of the tricky things with followers is all the book-keeping it requires. Thinking about it, unless you want to make up some simplified mass-combat rules to go with it, I think it would be better to design it to have better followers rather than more of them.

One obvious buff would be to let your followers have PC class levels without penalties. I forget exactly how it worked - and they may have changed this in 3.5, it's been years since I checked this - but ordinarily your followers can only have NPC classes, and if they pick up a PC class they count as some levels higher.

PC classes over NPC classes. Definitely.
I'm also considering moving all numeric values of #followers 3 levels up according to a warlord's Leadership score and allowing up to 9th level followers.




Similarly, some kind of automatic bonuses if they're fighting where they can see the warlord, in addition to the Motivate effect. Maybe, as a higher-level ability, shift all columns in the follower table one space to the right - so if before you could have, say, 10 3rd-level followers and 2 4th, now you can have 10 4th and 2 5th.

Yes. If I make a special exception for the Warlord to gain Leadership at 5th level, things would add up.




It would still take a lot of book-keeping, but that's probably inevitable for any kind of "leader of armies" character unless they abstract out a lot.

I don't have simplified mass combat rules on my agenda at current.




Maybe some kind of "Last Stand" effect, where your allies/followers can keep fighting even after dropping into the negatives? Not sure that's good enough for a capstone.

Absolutely.
Mass Diehard seems solid to me.

nonsi
2013-10-21, 01:27 PM
Then you approximately have a spell-less bard that with a slightly better to-hit bonus that can't be optimized.

Instead of just adding things to the class to try and make it good, I suggest figuring out what you want it to do in the first place.

I was over cautious. I tend to do that every now and then.
It's a lot clearer to me now what I want of this class.
I'll return with a new and improved version the first opportunity I get (hopefully no later than 2 days).