The Green Knight [D&D 3.P, Tier 3 Paladin of Nature]

[Ziegander]

http://i43.servimg.com/u/f43/15/13/64/34/m1002410.jpg

Alignment: Chaotic Good or Neutral Good
Race: A Green Knight must be a living creature.
Hit Die: 1d10

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Aura of Good, Smite the Unnatural 1/day, Wild Empathy|2|—|—|—|—|—

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Aura of Resolve, Zone of Purity|3|0|—|—|—|—

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Font of Vitality, Woodland Stride|3|1|—|—|—|—

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Divine Grace|3|2|0|—|—|—

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Special Companion, Smite the Unnatural 2/day|3|3|1|—|—|—

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Aura of Faith|3|3|2|—|—|—

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Verdant Miracle 1/week|3|3|2|0|—|—

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Divine Health|3|3|3|1|—|—

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Smite the Unnatural 3/day|3|3|3|2|—|—

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Aura of Fecundity|3|3|3|2|0|—

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Verdant Miracle 2/week|3|3|3|3|1|—

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Tongue of the Sun and Moon|3|3|3|3|2|—

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Smite the Unnatural 4/day|3|3|3|3|2|0

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Aura of Healing|4|3|3|3|3|1

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Verdant Miracle 3/week|4|4|3|3|3|2

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|Timeless Body|4|4|4|3|3|2

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Smite the Unnatural 5/day|4|4|4|4|3|3

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Aura of Natural Order|4|4|4|4|4|3

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Verdant Miracle 4/week|4|4|4|4|4|4

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Nature's Champion, Perfect Self|4|4|4|4|4|4
[/table]

Class Skills (4 + Int modifier per level): Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Nature) (Int), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies
A Green Knight is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

Spells
A Green Knight casts divine spells, which are drawn from the Druid, Paladin, and Ranger spell lists. His alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to him moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells. A Green Knight must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below).

To prepare or cast a spell, the Green Knight must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Green Knight’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Green Knight’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a Green Knight can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the table above. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. He does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as a cleric does.

A Green Knight prepares and casts spells the way a Cleric does, and he may lose a prepared spell to cast a cure spell in its place as a Cleric does. A Green Knight may prepare and cast any spell on the Druid, Paladin, or Ranger spell lists, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

Aura of Good (Ex): The power of a Green Knight's aura of good (see the Detect Good spell) is equal to his class level.

Smite the Unnatural (Su): Once per day, a Green Knight may attempt to smite an unnatural creature (aberrations, constructs, magical beasts, outsiders with the extraplanar subtype, and undead are all unnatural) with a single attack. He adds either his Charisma modifier or +4 (whichever is higher) as a sacred bonus to his attack roll and deals 1d6 extra damage to the creature per odd class level (2d6 at 3rd level, 3d6 at 5th level, and so on). If he accidentally smites a creature that is not unnatural, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.

A living unnatural creature successfully struck by a smite attack in this way must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ the Green Knight's level + the Green Knight's Charisma modifier) or become sickened while they remain within 30ft of the Green Knight and for 1 round after. Constructs and undead become staggered instead. A living creature that is killed by this attack crumbles and rots, quickly turning into nutrient rich compost, and cannot be brought back to life except by a Miracle or Wish spell. Constructs and undead destroyed by this attack are turned to a fine dust.

At 5th level, and at every four levels thereafter, the Green Knight may smite the unnatural one additional time per day.

Wild Empathy (Ex): A Green Knight can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check to improve the attitude of a person. He rolls 1d20 and adds his class level and his Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.

To use wild empathy, the Green Knight and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal visibility conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute, but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.

The Green Knight can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but he takes a -4 penalty on the check.

Aura of Resolve (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a Green Knight is immune to compulsion effects. Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against compulsion effects.

This ability functions only while the Green Knight is conscious, not if he is unconscious or dead.

Zone of Purity (Su): A 2nd level Green Knight is able to fend off unnatural creatures with an infusion of pure, natural power. To use this ability, make a Turning check and as a Cleric would to Turn or Rebuke Undead using your Green Knight level to roll turning damage. However, instead of affecting undead within 60ft of you, you affect all unnatural creatures in a 40ft radius centered anywhere within 100ft + 10ft/class level.

Turned creatures immediately flee the area by the best and fastest means available to them until they have moved past the 40ft radius at which point they may act normally except that they cannot re-enter the area while the zone persists. If a turned creature cannot escape the area's radius it will flee to the furthest edge possible. While a turned creature remains in the radius it is confused unless it succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ the Green Knight's level + the Green Knight's Charisma modifier). This save must be made at the start of each round the creature remains in the area.

A Zone of Purity persists for 1 minute (10 rounds). While a Zone of Purity persists, unnatural creatures whose total hit dice do not exceed the highest HD of creatures affected must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ the Green Knight's level + the Green Knight's Charisma modifier) to enter the area. Turned creatures automatically fail this save.

A Green Knight may create a Zone of Purity a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A Green Knight with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (Nature) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks he makes to affect unnatural creatures within a Zone of Purity.

Font of Vitality (Su): Starting at 3rd level, a Green Knight taps into a well of natural power that can regenerate damage dealt to him and can be used to heal others. He has a pool of healing points equal to his class level × his Charisma modifier (minimum 0). Anytime he loses hit points, if he has points of healing left in this pool, he may subtract any number of them rather than lose those hit points.

As a standard action, a Green Knight may sacrifice any number of points of healing from his pool and touch a creature to restore an equal number of lost hit points to the touched creature. This is a positive energy effect and may alternatively be used to damage undead creatures.

In addition, a Green Knight can cure 1 point of ability damage or remove the dazed, fatigued, or sickened condition from one individual at the cost of 5 healing points; or he can remove the exhausted, nauseated, paralyzed, poisoned, or stunned condition from one individual at the cost of 10 healing points; or he can remove a negative level or the blinded, deafened, or diseased condition from one individual at the cost of 20 healing points.

A Green Knight can remove a condition (or more than one condition) and restore hit points with the same touch, so long as he expends the required number of points. For example, if he wished to heal 12 points of damage and remove the blinded and exhausted conditions from a target, he would need to expend 42 healing points (12 hit points restored + 20 points for the blinded condition + 10 points for the exhausted condition). A Green Knight removing conditions from himself is a free action, but it must be done on the Green Knight's turn.

A Green Knight with points of healing left in his pool that is brought to fewer than 0 but greater than -10 hit points automatically stabilizes.

A Green Knight that runs his pool dry can replenish his healing points with 8 hours of rest.

Woodland Stride (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a Green Knight may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect him.

Divine Grace (Su): At 4th level, a Green Knight adds his Charisma bonus (if any) as a sacred bonus to all saving throws.

Special Companion (Su): Upon reaching 5th level, a Green Knight gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal animal companion to aid him in his efforts to preserve the natural world. This ability functions exactly as a Druid's animal companion except that the Green Knight's companion has the Intelligence, share saving throws, improved speed, and spell resistance of a Paladin's special mount (see table below for adjustments).

{table=head]Class Level|Bonus HD|Natural Armor Adj|Str/Dex Adj|Int|Bonus Tricks|Special
5th-7th|
+2|
+2|
+2|
6|
2|Link, Share Saving Throws, Share Spells

8th-10th|
+5|
+5|
+3|
7|
4|Devotion, Evasion, Improved Speed

11th-13th|
+7|
+7|
+4|
8|
5|Multiattack

14th-16th|
+10|
+10|
+5|
9|
6|Improved Evasion

17th-20th|
+12|
+12|
+6|
10|
7|Spell Resistance
[/table]

Aura of Faith (Su): Beginning at 6th level, a Green Knight's weapons are treated as good-aligned for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction. Any attack made against an enemy within 10 feet of him is likewise treated as good-aligned.

This ability functions only while the Green Knight is conscious, not if he is unconscious or dead.

Verdant Miracle (Sp): Starting at 7th level, once each week, a Green Knight is able to call upon phenomenal natural power to cast one of the following spell like abilities—Animal Shapes, Animate Plants, or Control Weather.

A Green Knight may call upon this power an additional time each week at 11th level and every four levels thereafter.

Divine Health (Ex): At 8th level, a Green Knight gains immunity to all poisons and diseases, including supernatural and magical poisons and diseases.

Aura of Fecundity (Ex): Beginning at 10th level, whenever a Green Knight uses his smite the unnatural class feature he may spend an additional daily use. If he does, each ally within 20ft of him is entitled to make a smite attack against an unnatural creature once before the end of the ally's next turn. These smite attacks have a +4 bonus to hit and deal 1d6 extra damage plus 1d6 damage per two character levels that ally has after 1st, but do not possess the other effects that a Green Knight's smite attacks do.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex): A Green Knight of 12th level or higher can speak with any living creature, even if that creature does not have a language. He may also speak with earth and stone as if affected by a permanent Stone Tell spell. Finally, he gains a sacred bonus to all Diplomacy and Handle Animal checks equal to ½ his class level.

Aura of Healing (Su): Beginning at 14th level the Green Knight and each ally within 20ft of him regain a number of hit points equal to the Green Knight's Charisma modifier at the start of any turn when that creature is below 50% of its maximum hit points. If instead that creature is at maximum hit points, but is poisoned or diseased, that creature is cured of one poison or disease currently afflicting it.

This ability functions only while the Green Knight is conscious, not if he is unconscious or dead.

Timeless Body (Ex): Starting at 16th level, a Green Knight does not age and loses any penalties he has taken from aging to this point.

While conscious, the Green Knight has Regeneration of a value equal to his Constitution modifier, but cures himself of nonlethal damage only once per hour rather than once each round. His regeneration is overcome by acid damage, fire damage, vile damage, or by negative energy.

A Green Knight with a Constitution modifier of +0 or a negative Constitution modifier does not have Regeneration until he has a Constitution modifier of at least +1.

Aura of Natural Order (Ex): Beginning at 18th level, animals, elementals, fey, oozes, plants, and vermin always have an initial attitude of indifferent or better toward the Green Knight.

Furthermore, aberrations, constructs, magical beasts, (extraplanar) outsiders, and undead must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ the Green Knight's level + the Green Knight's Charisma modifier) to attack allies of the Green Knight that remain within 30ft of him. Such creatures may attack the Green Knight normally.

This ability functions only while the Green Knight is conscious, not if he is unconscious or dead.

Nature's Champion (Sp/Su): At 20th level, the Green Knight becomes a conduit through which the raw power of nature flows. He gains Damage Reduction 10/– against the attacks of unnatural creatures and whenever such a creature fails its Will save against his smite attack it permanently loses all spell-like and supernatural abilities, including the ability to cast spells. An extraplanar outsider that fails its save is returned to its home plane as if by a Banishment spell, while an aberration is sent to the Far Plane as if by a Plane Shift spell. A construct that fails this save by 5 or more is rendered permanently inert.

By spending three of his daily uses of Zone of Purity, one of his weekly uses of Verdant Miracle, and 10 minutes in prayer a Green Knight of 20th level may create a permanent Zone of Purity as a spell-like ability with a bonus to his turning check equal to ½ his class level.

Perfect Self (Ex): A Green Knight of 20th level and higher gains the fey creature type in addition to his other creature types and gains the augmented subtype. He is not affected by harmful spells or abilities that rely on creature types or subtypes unless those effects can affect fey. Harmless spells and abilities affect him normally. A Green Knight that already was a fey gains a +2 perfection bonus to his Charisma score.

Calculate each of the Green Knight's ability scores without the benefit (or penalty) of any modifiers aside from inherent and racial modifiers. Any score found to be lower than 20 in this way is increased to 20 before adding other modifiers to it.

[Gnorman]

The second paragraph of Timeless Body has an extraneous "his":


While conscious, the Green Knight has Regeneration of a value equal to his Constitution modifier, but cures himself of nonlethal damage only once per hour rather than once each round. His regeneration is overcome by damage dealt to him by his acid and fire damage, by vile damage, or by negative energy.

Other than that, looks awesome! Evocative, well-designed - feels like a paladin with all those auras, but probably quite a bit better due to improved spellcasting and actual class features beyond 5th level.

[Ziegander]

The second paragraph of Timeless Body has an extraneous "his":

Nice catch!


Other than that, looks awesome! Evocative, well-designed - feels like a paladin with all those auras, but probably quite a bit better due to improved spellcasting and actual class features beyond 5th level.

Thanks! Yeah, I was hoping that this would turn out to be much better than your run of the mill Paladin. It's more in line with a PF Paladin, but still probably a little stronger or at the very least more versatile. I was aiming for Tier 3 with this guy.

[Gnorman]

I was aiming for Tier 3 with this guy.

I'd say you nailed it. Most of the abilities are passive in nature. He won't have (m)any encounter-ending abilities, but should be able to contribute effectively in most situations, especially those involving unnatural opponents (probably at least 50% of all situations). Between Aura of Natural Order and his various healing abilities, he'll likely make for a decent tank-type, too.

Getting the fey type seems almost like an afterthought, though.

[Ziegander]

Getting the fey type seems almost like an afterthought, though.

It just seemed like the fitting apotheosis type capstone for a Paladin devoted to nature. Added a special clause for Green Knights who already were fey.

[Gnorman]

Maybe it's just me, but I never felt like apotheosis capstones were worth it. Except for the Dread Necromancer, because of Lich-ness.

It's like: "Congratulations on reaching level 20! You are Officially a Fairy."

Granted, you're a pretty awesome fairy with those stat boosts, but still.

[Palanan]

This is extremely cool. No time to give it a thorough read right now, but I love the overall feel of it. A paladin for the natural world: why didn't I think of that?

*smites forehead*



Just one comment for now. The tenth-level ability "Aura of Verdigris" might want a different name, since verdigris is actually a thin layer of corrosion, mainly copper sulfate, that builds up on copper and brass exposed to the air. Since the power as you've written it has nothing to do with metal, I'd suggest another name.

I really like the concept, and I'll try to give it a detailed read later on.

[Ziegander]

This is extremely cool. No time to give it a thorough read right now, but I love the overall feel of it. A paladin for the natural world: why didn't I think of that?

*smites forehead*

The Green Knight was born out of my frustration with trying to multiclass a Druid and Prestige Paladin. It's almost unworkable in D&D 3.5, and so I decided to go ahead and design this class just for fun.


Just one comment for now. The tenth-level ability "Aura of Verdigris" might want a different name, since verdigris is actually a thin layer of corrosion, mainly copper sulfate, that builds up on copper and brass exposed to the air. Since the power as you've written it has nothing to do with metal, I'd suggest another name.

I've changed it to Aura of Fecundity. I know that doesn't work quite right either, but it sounds a lot better than Aura of Sacred Rot, don't you think? I could just change it to Aura of Nature's Wrath I suppose, but that's not quite the feeling I'm trying to convey.


I really like the concept, and I'll try to give it a detailed read later on.

Thank you, I'd appreciate that!

[Prospekt]

I'd say you nailed it. Most of the abilities are passive in nature. He won't have (m)any encounter-ending abilities, but should be able to contribute effectively in most situations, especially those involving unnatural opponents (probably at least 50% of all situations). Between Aura of Natural Order and his various healing abilities, he'll likely make for a decent tank-type, too.

Getting the fey type seems almost like an afterthought, though.

Heheh, passive in nature. Sorry :smallredface:

-

Aside from that, I really like this idea! I'm all about knights, and I'm all about nature. Next time I play a PC, I might ask whoever is DMing if I could try this.

[Ziegander]

Aside from that, I really like this idea! I'm all about knights, and I'm all about nature. Next time I play a PC, I might ask whoever is DMing if I could try this.

I keep going back and forth on whether I want to ask my DM to let me play it instead of the arduous Druid/Prestige Paladin build I'm working on. I think I'll stick with the Druid guy I've got, but I do very much like this class. Lots of interesting mechanics going on.

[Fizban]

Once your Regeneration converts damage to non-lethal it's restored like any other non-lethal damage, so already having Fast Healing means that "regeneration per hour" is moot. Since they both only work when conscious I'd drop the number and just have Regeneration: 0 like a lot of things do.

[Ziegander]

Once your Regeneration converts damage to non-lethal it's restored like any other non-lethal damage, so already having Fast Healing means that "regeneration per hour" is moot. Since they both only work when conscious I'd drop the number and just have Regeneration: 0 like a lot of things do.

Well, I suppose it is incredibly redundant, but the fast healing only works if he's below 50% health.

[Blueiji]

This is really cool. Very evocative of classic sword and sorcery. I absolutely love the picture. :smallsmile:

Any chance that you're going to make adaptations of this for different "colors"? If not, then with your permission, I might try to whip up some ACFs to represent those variants.

[Ziegander]

This is really cool. Very evocative of classic sword and sorcery. I absolutely love the picture. :smallsmile:

That is great to hear! :smallbiggrin:


Any chance that you're going to make adaptations of this for different "colors"? If not, then with your permission, I might try to whip up some ACFs to represent those variants.

I have no such plans, but you have my full permission to do so.

[nonsi]

Nice job. Very Solid.
This is as powerful as I've ever seen from a T3 class.
My only issue with it is that it'll probably make things too easy and give DMs nightmares in figuring challenging encounters for their parties.

[Just to Browse]

Why are magical beasts smite-able? When I think magical beast, I think owlbears and unicorns, which seem very natural.

[toapat]

Maybe it's just me, but I never felt like apotheosis capstones were worth it. Except for the Dread Necromancer, because of Lich-ness.

It's like: "Congratulations on reaching level 20! You are Officially a Fairy."

Granted, you're a pretty awesome fairy with those stat boosts, but still.

I agree, Apotheosis capstones rarely contribute positively to the feel of a class. Like why as a PF paladin would i want to become an angel? i care about providing hope for the people through being a divine badass, beating the tides of hell to death with my bare fists if necessary to protect them, not leading them in some organized religion focused on spreading good.

This is a very cool class though.

[Ziegander]

Nice job. Very Solid.
This is as powerful as I've ever seen from a T3 class.
My only issue with it is that it'll probably make things too easy and give DMs nightmares in figuring challenging encounters for their parties.

Is it really all that powerful? I mean, it's powerful, I know, I designed it, and it's definitely got a ton of out-of-combat utility. In combat though it's really just hard as hell to kill with moderate damage output. Paladin and Ranger spells give it some additional tactical options in combat, but not terribly many and nothing hugely powerful.

I would think that in a standard campaign, with a DM that plays smart, by-the-book, and doesn't pull punches, this class would be strong but not overwhelmingly so. It shouldn't be difficult to challenge with stock MM1 monsters and creative DM-ing. What sticks out for you that makes you find it to be so nightmare-inducing?


Why are magical beasts smite-able? When I think magical beast, I think owlbears and unicorns, which seem very natural.

Really? When I think of unicorn, sure, I think nature, but when I think owlbear, I think, "a wizard did it." That a Green Knight is able to smite unicorns however is no different than a good-aligned Crusader being able to smite some good-aligned NPC. He can do it, but he isn't very likely to.


I agree, Apotheosis capstones rarely contribute positively to the feel of a class. Like why as a PF paladin would i want to become an angel? [...] leading them in some organized religion focused on spreading good.

The class does have a rigid code of conduct and a Lawful Good alignment, remember? The highlighted text seems like something that would definitely be right up a high level Paladin's alley.


This is a very cool class though.

Thank you! My only regret is that it has absolutely no mechanics to distinguish one player's Green Knight from another.

[Gnorman]

Well, if you think the statement "When an owl and a bear love each other very much..." is a NATURAL one, then perhaps I understand the objection.

[Just to Browse]

You could apply the same argument for other things the Green Knight can smite, like boguns (animated by druids, still a construct) or perhaps a delver (it's a big burrowing monster, not some sort of tentacular beast) but those are tiny minorities. Magical beasts seem to be predominantly "natural" things. The owlbear is supposed to be a naturally-occuring and breeding creature.

Going through the d20srd monster filter, I'd peg 85-90% of magical beasts as natural. Darkmantle, Digester, Gorgon, Lamia, and Hellwasp Swarm are pretty much the only ones I don't think fit. Heck, there are monsters in there that are basically animals: Giant Owls, Sea Cats, Krenshar...

My primary thought of "natural" v "unnatural" is decided by "Would a green knight ride it?" I honestly see all sorts of green knights riding pegasi, manticores, or purple worms, and its dissonant to me that the green knight would ride something that his code of conduct is against.

Also, there is no listed code of conduct here despite you referencing it--anything planned there?

[Ziegander]

You could apply the same argument for other things the Green Knight can smite, like boguns (animated by druids, still a construct) or perhaps a delver (it's a big burrowing monster, not some sort of tentacular beast) but those are tiny minorities.

Yes, you can apply the argument widely. I don't see a big problem there. Think of it this way: animals just do things as nature intended. Magical beasts, though? Not only are most of them intelligent, often they have unnatural "evolutionary traits," let's call them. Magical beasts can be thought of then as occasions when nature has gone awry, and the Green Knight is equipped to set things right, when he needs to.


The owlbear is supposed to be a naturally-occuring and breeding creature.

I know that's technically the case, but how "naturally-occuring" are we talking here? Are they common in non-magical areas, or just areas with an uncommon, perhaps "unnatural" suffusion with magic? Obviously there are no rules or guidelines on the ecology of magical beasts.


Going through the d20srd monster filter, I'd peg 85-90% of magical beasts as natural. Darkmantle, Digester, Gorgon, Lamia, and Hellwasp Swarm are pretty much the only ones I don't think fit.

I disagree. I wouldn't consider Aranea, Basilisks, Behir, Blink Dogs, Chimera, Cockatrices, Krakens, Lammasu, Manticores, Owlbears, Pegasi, Remorhaz, Ropers, Sphinxes, Spider Eaters, or Yrthaks to be very natural either.


Heck, there are monsters in there that are basically animals: Giant Owls, Sea Cats, Krenshar...

Arguably "unnatural" versions of animals.


My primary thought of "natural" v "unnatural" is decided by "Would a green knight ride it?" I honestly see all sorts of green knights riding pegasi, manticores, or purple worms, and its dissonant to me that the green knight would ride something that his code of conduct is against.

Also, there is no listed code of conduct here despite you referencing it--anything planned there?

I made mention of a Paladin's code of conduct, not the Green Knight's. However, the Green Knight should have a code of conduct, you're right. At the moment I do not have the inclination to write one though. If someone else wants to take a stab at it, do feel free.

[nonsi]

What sticks out for you that makes you find it to be so nightmare-inducing?


- With level progression, its tools of shutting down unnaturals are too effective.
- It befriends many not-unnaturals too easily.
- It has multiple auras active simultaneously (couldn't find an interchangeability clause), all of which are very effective.
- It has a very wide range of spells to choose from each day.
- Up until level 15, it has the spell output of a full fledged Bard.
- It's packed with quite a lot of other goodies.

It's simply too good an option to even consider any other T3 class I've ever seen . . . even classes that could take it one-on-one, like my Warrior or Monk, because its contribution to total party power & options is unparalleled.
All a 10th level GT needs to do is make a single smite attack and the entire party gains Smite for the next two rounds (heck, with its auras, it could just stand there poking its nose until then and still its contribution would be awesome).
And then there's Font of Vitality that practically negates two or three strikes on each day's first encounter.
And then it has a Familiar-Mount combo companion.

No matter where you're put me, with this dude I'd probably make every other player in the party feel non-contributive until level 13 or so.
With a single Rogue level and Able Learner, I could make it step on the toes of all T3 classes out there combined.
Maybe in a party of Sublime-Ur-Lyrist grade characters I'd actually have to break a sweat not to lag behind.


And I haven't even touched character build options.

[toapat]

The class does have a rigid code of conduct and a Lawful Good alignment, remember? The highlighted text seems like something that would definitely be right up a high level Paladin's alley.

this is a problem of presentation that also ignores the fact that only Lawful Neutral devolves into Hivemind at absolute most extreme. No alignment is a single big happy family.

paladins are knights, they own land and care for the subjects they rule over. Their perspective of what they do is intended to be measured from the bottom up, dealing with injustice in single steps as opposed to massive chunks

an Angel is, first and foremost, involved in mortal affairs from the top of the mountain. a Paladin would strive to personally educate each bandit in their domain and find them a place in society, an Angel would instead task a small force to deal with the bandit because they want to spread as much as they can, as far as they can, and their lack of mortal nature results in them having a severe degree of emotional detachment from Dennis the constitutional peasant. this degree of detachment is similar in scale to the one between the High lords of Terra or Cephias Cain/Ibram Gaunt are to the imperial guardsmen on the front lines.

[Just to Browse]

You don't imagine Green Knights from the mountains riding yrthaks?

Or aquatic green knights working with krakens?

That stuff makes about as much sense as dragons or fey to me. But I suppose I can't change your mind.

And I'm on the fence about the tier 3 thing. The green knight can do well in multi-monster fights against 'unnatural' creatures, but pair him against a dragon and he's lost several of his strong class features.

The real powerhouse here is his access to druid spells (flight at level 2, epic BFC) because his auras are only decent and his smiting is condition. He definitely doesn't have the flexibility of a sorcerer or anything, but he can probably contribute like a beguiler. And I'm cool with that, it's just a lot.

[Ziegander]

All a 10th level GT needs to do is make a single smite attack and the entire party gains Smite for the next two rounds (heck, with its auras, it could just stand there poking its nose until then and still its contribution would be awesome).

While the original Aura of Fecundity only allowed one smite attack for 1 round, I have toned it down, realizing that it was pretty ridiculous.


And then there's Font of Vitality that practically negates two or three strikes on each day's first encounter.

Standard-issue Lay on Hands can do the same. I just made it more versatile. EDIT: Well, admittedly, the free-action, even not on your turn, self-heal makes it much more user-friendly.


No matter where you're put me, with this dude I'd probably make every other player in the party feel non-contributive until level 13 or so.

It is important to consider the level of MAD required for a Green Knight to be as massively effective as you're suggesting.


With a single Rogue level and Able Learner, I could make it step on the toes of all T3 classes out there combined.

A few extra skill points are really going to give the Green Knight so much of a leg up on guys like Beguilers and Dread Necromancers?


this is a problem of presentation that also ignores the fact that only Lawful Neutral devolves into Hivemind at absolute most extreme. No alignment is a single big happy family.

paladins are knights, they own land and care for the subjects they rule over. Their perspective of what they do is intended to be measured from the bottom up, dealing with injustice in single steps as opposed to massive chunks

an Angel is, first and foremost, involved in mortal affairs from the top of the mountain. a Paladin would strive to personally educate each bandit in their domain and find them a place in society, an Angel would instead task a small force to deal with the bandit because they want to spread as much as they can, as far as they can, and their lack of mortal nature results in them having a severe degree of emotional detachment from Dennis the constitutional peasant. this degree of detachment is similar in scale to the one between the High lords of Terra or Cephias Cain/Ibram Gaunt are to the imperial guardsmen on the front lines.

Honestly, I don't see the disconnect so strongly as you do. Nor was suggesting that all Paladins should aspire to be angels, I was merely reflecting that it's not out of the realm of possibility that some Paladins would totally think that's a rad thing to do.


You don't imagine Green Knights from the mountains riding yrthaks?

Or aquatic green knights working with krakens?

It's not that I can't see either of those things, it's that the fact that some Green Knights might doesn't preclude that other Green Knights could come into conflict against those creatures.

While magical beasts aren't anathema to nature as most of the other creature types listed are, they can in many ways still be considered a perversion or undesired alteration of nature. In that sense, I felt giving the Green Knight the tools to take care of such threats, if he must, was appropriate.


And I'm on the fence about the tier 3 thing. The green knight can do well in multi-monster fights against 'unnatural' creatures, but pair him against a dragon and he's lost several of his strong class features.

The real powerhouse here is his access to druid spells (flight at level 2, epic BFC) because his auras are only decent and his smiting is condition. He definitely doesn't have the flexibility of a sorcerer or anything, but he can probably contribute like a beguiler. And I'm cool with that, it's just a lot.

Well, if he has the contribution power of a Beguiler then, I think we're good, right? That's where Tier 3 is supposed to be.

[Just to Browse]

It's the upper end of T3 in output. Sort of like how a beguiler steps on the toes of the bard (as an attack caster) and the rogue (as a skillmonkey / stealth master), this steps on the toes of the paladin (as the divine armored gish) and the theoretically low-op druid (how do i wildhsape kind of druid).

Honestly I'm fine with that. It's my favorite level of balance. And it's not all that much crowding IMO. The only thing I'm really worried about is the access to druid spells (early fly speed with master air, killer SoD with blinding spittle), but I don't know about quality control there because I've only played a core druid and a healbot druid.

It honestly looks like it would play nicely with a red mage or mageknight.

EDIT: Oh yeah I'd honestly like this to be a total neutral or nonlawful class, because neutral is how druids do it and it either way opens the alignments up a lot more. Paladin alignment restriction was ridiculous and this is definitely nicer, but I totally want to play an evil tiger-riding green knight, or a true neutral green knight preaching about "survival" and "balance" and whatnot. The detectable aura would need some changing though, especially to accommodate neutrality.

[Legendxp]

Been looking around for some neat images and I found one which I think suits your class perfectly. Looks like some guy riding a giant lizard, or something, but it seemed neat.

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/197/1/1/forest_rider_by_yonaz-d3uq8kj.jpg

Here's the url
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/197/1/1/forest_rider_by_yonaz-d3uq8kj.jpg

[Perseus]

This is really cool. Very evocative of classic sword and sorcery. I absolutely love the picture. :smallsmile:

Any chance that you're going to make adaptations of this for different "colors"? If not, then with your permission, I might try to whip up some ACFs to represent those variants.

And here I wanted to play the Green Lantern...

However I like this, very nice. You gave smite unnatural a boost over smite evil which is always needed.

I'll probably always think of this as a Warden, it feels a lot like my favorite 4e class.

*edit, in my next d&d game I'm going to try and use this. If possible. I'll post any experiences but I'm joining a new group so I'm not sure how open they are to homebrew.

[Ziegander]

And here I wanted to play the Green Lantern...

However I like this, very nice. You gave smite unnatural a boost over smite evil which is always needed.

I'll probably always think of this as a Warden, it feels a lot like my favorite 4e class.

I always liked the concept for 4e's Warden.


*edit, in my next d&d game I'm going to try and use this. If possible. I'll post any experiences but I'm joining a new group so I'm not sure how open they are to homebrew.

I would GREATLY appreciate it, man. I almost never get to playtest my own material.

[Perseus]

I always liked the concept for 4e's Warden.



I would GREATLY appreciate it, man. I almost never get to playtest my own material.

I can't make to many promises, a pal said he would run a one shot but he is also a grad student sooo... Yeah there is that.

Though this page is saved for when I get the chance.

[LordErebus12]

I think this is definitely more powerful/versatile than the paladin, as per 3.5.

[toapat]

I think this is definitely more powerful/versatile than the paladin, as per 3.5.

thats because its technically built from the PF paladin.

and 3.5 Paladin is burdened down severely by underpowered mechanics

[Perseus]

thats because its technically built from the PF paladin.

and 3.5 Paladin is burdened down severely by underpowered mechanics

Really? Totally didn't get that impression from just reading the class. Actually the PF Paladin was furthest from my mind that the 4e Warden came to mind before it. I like the PF paladin but it didn't really come to mind with this (I didn't read the thread btw, I didn't want it to bias my thoughts on the class itself ).

Totally feels more like the 3.5 Paladin but you know, done correctly. With a splash of druid of course.

[Xerlith]

One of my players expressed a desire to play this class after he stumbled upon it. I'm a bit afraid of the broad spell list, but I guess MADness balances it out...

[toapat]

One of my players expressed a desire to play this class after he stumbled upon it. I'm a bit afraid of the broad spell list, but I guess MADness balances it out...

its not a great list, the ranger is only bringing a tiny hint of spells to a list dominated primarily by Druid with the gems of paladin.

if you let druids already, it wont be any more powerful

[123456789blaaa]

I don't suppose you're familiar with the Iron Chef Optimization Competitions? A competitor actually made a Green Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8580412&postcount=115)of his own and it won! Just thought it was a funny coincidence :smallbiggrin:.