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shaka gl
2007-01-03, 07:59 PM
So, i think i heard something about a Feat that lets you do that, somewhere round here. Or maybe a Class Feature. Is it real? Where is it?.

JaronK
2007-01-03, 08:10 PM
There's an elf only PrC, Champion of... whatever the name of that god is whose initials are "CL". Dex to damage at I believe 2nd level, though it has a lot of feat requirements.

JaronK

Jack Mann
2007-01-03, 08:11 PM
It's in Tome of Battle. It requires the use of a stance from the shadow hand school, and you have to use weapons associated with that school.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-03, 08:12 PM
Champion of Corellon Larethian, which has some stringent requirements, lets you add Dex to damage with certain elfy weapons, but it's precision damage (i.e. doesn't work on anything sneak attack doesn't work on).

The newer way is the Shadow Blade feat from Tome of Battle. It grants DEX to damage while in a Shadow Hand stance and wielding a Shadow Hand discipline favored weapon; getting it without taking Swordsage levels requires Martial Study and Martial Stance feats, so that's a three-feat investment. Dipping Swordsage is probably a better idea.

Ramza00
2007-01-03, 08:12 PM
The shadow sun schools weapons are very "ninja" like. Things such as daggers, sai, nunchunks, and even the spiked chain.

This isn't all of them of course, there is one or two more.

TheOOB
2007-01-04, 12:59 AM
It wouldn't be much trouble to make a feat like this though

Graceful Strike[General]
You use skill rather then brawn to damage your enemies
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Base Attack Bonus +1
Benefit: Whenever you attack with a weapon using the Weapon Finesse feat you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. When you do this with a Two-Handed Weapon (such as the spiked chain) you only add 1 times your Dexterity modifier to damage(as opposed to 1.5 times). If you carry a shield it's armor check penealty applies to damage rolls.
Special: A fighter may select Graceful Strike as one of their fighter bonus feats.

Natural Weapons are always considered light weapons

Avicenex
2007-01-04, 01:07 AM
Its easy to make anything that does anything. The question is not "can you make it?" but "will it be balanced?" A two feat dip to completely ignore strength? Doesn't seem balanced to me...

TheOOB
2007-01-04, 01:12 AM
Strength still has it's uses, it still controls carrying and capacity, and in order to get high damage bonuses with two handed weapons you still rely on strength.

Also consider that a rogue, one of the most likely canidates for the feat, can't get the feat until at least level 6, which by then the extra damage is small next to their sneak attack damage. Also keep in mind that rogues only get 7 feats between 1 and 20, and taking an extra feat for a few extra damage probally isn't even worth it.

Skyserpent
2007-01-04, 01:14 AM
Its easy to make anything that does anything. The question is not "can you make it?" but "will it be balanced?" A two feat dip to completely ignore strength? Doesn't seem balanced to me...

But remember, there's carrying capacity, grappling tripping and all that other good stuff that Strength uses. Plus Strength Based skills like Swimming and Climbing!

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-04, 01:14 AM
Its easy to make anything that does anything. The question is not "can you make it?" but "will it be balanced?" A two feat dip to completely ignore strength? Doesn't seem balanced to me...

Strength will still be a better option--1.5x STR to damage with a two-handed weapon, 2:1 power attack...

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-04, 01:19 AM
Unless you're two-weapon fighting, in which case there's no longer any reason to have strength... ever. If encumberance is an issue, get a mount or a bag of holding :P

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-04, 01:26 AM
Yes, unless you have two-weapon fighting... in which case you've spent three to five feats just to be on par with the strength guy.

Gee.
That's horrible. Ban it, ban it now.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-04, 01:45 AM
Hey, that could have really helped my fighter/rogue gestalt game. Imagine a full BAB sneak attacking TWF with Combat Reflexes and those two feats on any AoO. I really would have loved causing mass damage rules to everyone I encounter as soon as I stop hiding.

Stephen_E
2007-01-04, 02:11 AM
I don't know about the Tome of Battle ability, but Champion of Corralon has the restriction that the damage is precision, and lost against creatures immune to crit damage.

So your feat should probably have this restriction as well.

Stephen

Ramza00
2007-01-04, 02:21 AM
The TOB feat switches your Dex damage to your Str if your Dex is higher. (Similar to weapon finesse with hit but its damage)

Jack Mann
2007-01-04, 02:25 AM
Incorrect. If you have a strength bonus and a dexterity bonus, you add both to your damage, where weapon finesse makes it a complete substitution. Of course, this isn't a benefit if you have a strength penalty, since you'd have to apply that to your damage (but not your attack, assuming you had both feats).

Ramza00
2007-01-04, 02:31 AM
Incorrect. If you have a strength bonus and a dexterity bonus, you add both to your damage, where weapon finesse makes it a complete substitution. Of course, this isn't a benefit if you have a strength penalty, since you'd have to apply that to your damage (but not your attack, assuming you had both feats).

Actually you are correct and wrong at the same time, due to bad writting on page 30 and 32 of TOB. On page 32 it doesn't say anything about "replacing" Str it says you can add it as a bonus to damage. On page 30 it says specifically you use your Dex modifer instead of your Str modifer on damage rolls. Since you normally add your Str modifer to damage rolls (as a bonus), page 30 says you now use your Dex modifer.

Bad Editing on WOTC part, makes it confusing, and ultimately it is up to your DM :smallwink:

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-04, 02:32 AM
THe rule is that Text Trumps Table. I mean, the Table even says "Shadow Sun", which doesn't exist.

Ramza00
2007-01-04, 02:39 AM
THe rule is that Text Trumps Table. I mean, the Table even says "Shadow Sun", which doesn't exist.
On the optimization boards who put RAW on the pedastal maybe, texts trumpts table. In any real game DMs rule balance and there guess of RAI when the RAW material has multiple interperations.

Or do you believe a Warmage with 10 lvl of Rainbow Servant doesn't loose a caster level and gets the ability to cast all cleric spells spontaneously?

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-04, 02:42 AM
"Add dex to damage" vs. "replace" doesn't make enough of a difference to affect balance.

The warmage thing doesn't, happen, because the latest edition text has the missing caster levels, foreign-language or not.

Jack Mann
2007-01-04, 02:52 AM
On the optimization boards who put RAW on the pedastal maybe, texts trumpts table. In any real game DMs rule balance and there guess of RAI when the RAW material has multiple interperations.

Then it's a house rule. We are discussing the rules as WotC has presented them. Wizards has said that text trumps table. There is no ambiguity there. If the text says something and the table says something different, then, by the rules, the text is correct, not the table. Certainly you can rule differently in your own game, but that has no bearing on what the rules actually are.

Hallavast
2007-01-04, 03:28 AM
If you can add your Dex to damage instead of Str. , then Dex would be more important than strength ever was or will be (assuming you also have weapon finese). Dex would then be the factor for armor class, initiative, reflex saves, att. rolls, and dmg. rolls (not to mention dex based skills like tumble, balance, and escape artist). This coupled with the swordsage's extra damage from maneuvers is what makes the shadow hand swordsage > your typical 2h melee brute. :smalltongue:

Jack Mann
2007-01-04, 03:30 AM
No. It's the fact that the swordsage can do things other than damage that makes him superior to the two-handed melee brute.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-04, 03:32 AM
The melee brute can hit things better and harder. 1.5x STR to damage puts his ability to Power Attack at a 2:1 ratio puts him way ahead damage-wise.

Hallavast
2007-01-04, 03:43 AM
The melee brute can hit things better and harder. 1.5x STR to damage puts his ability to Power Attack at a 2:1 ratio puts him way ahead damage-wise.
I dunno... I've always found it a bit difficult to hit things once you've dumped all your BAB into power attack. And even when the canned meat 2hander does hit, the swordsage's extra damage dice make up for the power attack. And at the same time, he has a potentially higher AC.

Regardless, the swordsage makes warrior types more playable at high end due to the fact that, as Jackman said, he is more than a mere sword swinger.

Matthew
2007-01-04, 05:28 AM
Adding Dexterity Bonus to Melee Damage? What I would like to see is using Strength Bonus for Ranged AB...

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-04, 05:30 AM
Power Throw; it already exists.

Matthew
2007-01-04, 05:31 AM
That doesn't work with Bows, though.

Leon
2007-01-04, 05:45 AM
There is a Feat that add's Dex to Damage: down side is that you have to be a Nyss & using a Nyss claymore. Its called Winter's Edge and it's in No Quarter 2 (Bi Monthly Mag from Privateteer Press)

Peregrin_Tooc
2007-01-04, 05:51 AM
Well. the talent as it is presented above is certainly a bit unbalanced. But now, we add other prerequisits: Int 13+ (obvious, isn't it?), and "combat expertise", representing the characters ability to "see" what an oponent might do.
And the effect should only work where sneak attacks do.

Yakk
2007-01-04, 01:08 PM
Practically, it takes a hell of alot of Dex to boost your AC against anything other than touch attacks.

Mithril Full Plate and 16 dex is +11 mundane AC.

Someone with 34 dex has +12 mundane AC. No level of dex lower than 34 will grant you better mudane AC than 16 dex in mithril full plate.

And mithril is, quite honestly, the problem -- it is far too good. If you couldn't use mithril, 30 dex would be needed to beat full plate and a mere 12 dex.

High dex does allow you to have a high touch AC.

...

But, in any case, here is a more "balanced" Graceful Strike:

Graceful Strike[General]
You use skill rather then brawn to damage your enemies
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Base Attack Bonus +1
Benefit: Whenever you attack with a weapon using the Weapon Finesse feat you may use 1/2 of your Dexterity bonus (rounded down) instead of your Strength bonus on damage rolls. Strength penalties continue to apply. The bonus for one handed weapons, two handed weapons, light weapons, and offhand weapons is always 1/2 of your dex bonus.
Special: A fighter may select Graceful Strike as one of their fighter bonus feats.

There. A good feat for a high-dex average-strength character.

Hallavast
2007-01-04, 04:57 PM
Practically, it takes a hell of alot of Dex to boost your AC against anything other than touch attacks.

Mithril Full Plate and 16 dex is +11 mundane AC.

Someone with 34 dex has +12 mundane AC. No level of dex lower than 34 will grant you better mudane AC than 16 dex in mithril full plate.

And mithril is, quite honestly, the problem -- it is far too good. If you couldn't use mithril, 30 dex would be needed to beat full plate and a mere 12 dex.

High dex does allow you to have a high touch AC.

...

But, in any case, here is a more "balanced" Graceful Strike:

Graceful Strike[General]
You use skill rather then brawn to damage your enemies
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Base Attack Bonus +1
Benefit: Whenever you attack with a weapon using the Weapon Finesse feat you may use 1/2 of your Dexterity bonus (rounded down) instead of your Strength bonus on damage rolls. Strength penalties continue to apply. The bonus for one handed weapons, two handed weapons, light weapons, and offhand weapons is always 1/2 of your dex bonus.
Special: A fighter may select Graceful Strike as one of their fighter bonus feats.

There. A good feat for a high-dex average-strength character.
Right, but now factor in the fact that Swordsages also add their wisdom to ac while wearing light armor.

Starbuck_II
2007-01-04, 05:22 PM
Right, but now factor in the fact that Swordsages also add their wisdom to ac while wearing light armor.Which seems unfair to the monk and the ninja who lose their wisdom bonus in armor, but not all their abilities.

Monk keeps evasion in light.

But yeah, seems unfair to monk.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-04, 05:24 PM
Sucks to be the monk, then. Which... we already knew. The Swordsage is supposed to be better than the monk.

TheOOB
2007-01-04, 10:09 PM
I don't see whats the problum with using a feat to cover a character weakness, that kinda seems like one of the things feats should do.

As stated above Graceful Strike as I orginally wrote it won't add a huge amount of damage on an average basis, and even with the feat you can still get more net damage with a high strength score then a high dex score, as the feat restricts primarly to light weapons and doesn't allow you to benefit from the very nice 2h weapon damage multiplier.

Sure dex becomes you most important stat (but still not more important then say int is a wizard), but remember that dex suffers diminishing returns at high numbers as it's hard to wear good armor (heck any armor) with insanely high dex scores and still get your full dex bonus to AC.

Think of it like this, the average 6th level character will probally only get 3-4 extra damage per attack with this feat (as it would be rare for a character of that level to more then 6 to 8 more dex then str), which isn't much better then weapon spec(which, I might add, is a horribly underpowered feat), though it only works with smallish weapons.

Yakk
2007-01-05, 05:11 PM
Get the feats that let you dual-wield rapiers.

Now you can power attack for 1 damage on each weapon (total of 2), the same as with two-handed weapons.

The problem with two-handed vs dual-wield is that two-handed doesn't require nearly as many feats to pull off. But the feats are required because you can use dual-wield to very effectively deliver damage bonus dice.

It is a pretty classic D&D problem. The scimitar sucks at low levels because you can leverage high crit chance into massive damage once you get a boatload of +damage abilities and keen weapons. So before you get that, your scimitar sucks compared to the long sword.

Same with dual-wielding or two-weapon-fighting -- because it can be used to deliver bonus dice and/or ranger damage bonus and/or weapon spec damage, it is gimpy unless you use it optimally.

The same roughly with this -- unless dual-wielding is supposed to be complete crap compared to two-weapon fighting, your feat is rather powerful. A high level rogue dual-wielding is doing about 20 more damage per two-weapon attack round for the cost of one feat.

Weapon Spec applies to one weapon.
Weapon Spec is a fighter-only perk.
Weapon Spec doesn't scale well.

Adding dex to damage applies to all light weapons, and some medium/large weapons.
Adding dex to damage isn't a class restricted perk.
Adding dex to damage scales very well with character power.

Another idea:
You get to add up to 1/2 of your dex to your strength bonus to damage, but can add no more than your dex bonus.

This makes strength still matter.

Mitth'raw'nuruo
2009-07-10, 01:53 PM
for ranged attacks go with the Dead eye feat.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dead-Eye_(DnD_Feat)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-10, 01:55 PM
You've been around long enough to know better.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-10, 02:07 PM
Crossbow Sniper lets you add your DEX bonus to damage.

Riffington
2009-07-10, 04:27 PM
If you can add your Dex to damage instead of Str. , then Dex would be more important than strength ever was or will be (assuming you also have weapon finese). Dex would then be the factor for armor class, initiative, reflex saves, att. rolls, and dmg. rolls (not to mention dex based skills like tumble, balance, and escape artist). This coupled with the swordsage's extra damage from maneuvers is what makes the shadow hand swordsage > your typical 2h melee brute. :smalltongue:

Clearly we all agree that maneuvers are good.
But I think you are underestimating Power Attack, Disarm, Trip, and (at lower levels) Grapple. Having a high damage output isn't much good if your opponents can shut you out with their combat options. Even if you read the feat in the most favorable way possible (replace Str to damage with Dex, including 1.5x damage with a two-hander) you're still behind on feats, BAB, or both... and a lot of combat options depend on Strength. Maneuvers can make up for that, but that's a whole different story.

/imagining a halfling fighter making ineffectual stabbing motions as he tries to close the distance on an orc, who is keeping said halfling at arm's length by pushing his head back.

//really just posting for the mental image.

Gralamin
2009-07-10, 04:33 PM
http://media.photobucket.com/image/Thread%20necromancy%20image/lonewolf_achaea/Thread_Necromancy.jpg
Let it die.

Roland St. Jude
2009-07-10, 04:40 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Thread necromancy = no.