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View Full Version : [3.5, Weapon, PEACH] The Barbed Whip



Ripptor
2013-10-26, 02:46 AM
This is an attempt to make a Whip weapon that's more viable and desirable by updating an old whip (the whip-dagger) and adding some realistic functionality and flavor.

Barbed Whip
Exotic One-Handed Melee
Critical: 19-20/◊2
Range Increment: ó
Type: Slashing
Hardness: 2
{table=head]Size|Cost|Damage|Weight|HP
Fine|*|1d2|*|*
Diminutive|*|1d3|*|*
Tiny|*|1d4|*|*
Small|25 gp|1d6|2 lb.|*
Medium|25 gp|1d8|3 lb.|*
Large|50 gp|2d6|4 lb.|*
Huge|*|3d6|*|*
Gargantuan|*|4d6|*|*
Colossal|*|6d6|*|*[/table]

Description

Any character who has proficiency with the whip is also proficient in the barbed whip.

The barbed whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you only threaten the area exactly 15ft away. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

According to the SRD, "Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but canít strike at their natural reach or less." In the case of a whip, which ranges triple the natural reach for a Medium creature, I'm going to rule that it remains triple the reach, and threatens the last 1/3 of the range.

The following are helpful diagrams of threat ranges for different size categories. PC = Player Character, TH = Threatened Square.
{table] |TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|
TH|TH| | | |TH|TH
TH| | | | | |TH
TH| | |PC| | |TH
TH| | | | | |TH
TH|TH| | | |TH|TH
|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH| [/table]{table] | | | |TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH| | | |
| |TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH| |
|TH|TH|TH|TH| | | | |TH|TH|TH|TH|
|TH|TH|TH| | | | | | |TH|TH|TH|
TH|TH|TH| | | | | | | | |TH|TH|TH
TH|TH| | | | | | | | | | |TH|TH
TH|TH| | | | |PC|PC| | | | |TH|TH
TH|TH| | | | |PC|PC| | | | |TH|TH
TH|TH| | | | | | | | | | |TH|TH
TH|TH|TH| | | | | | | | |TH|TH|TH
|TH|TH|TH| | | | | | |TH|TH|TH|
|TH|TH|TH|TH| | | | |TH|TH|TH|TH|
| |TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH| |
| | | |TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH| | | |[/table]{table] | | | |TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH| | | |
| |TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH| |
|TH|TH|TH|TH| | | | | |TH|TH|TH|TH|
|TH|TH|TH| | | | | | | |TH|TH|TH|
TH|TH|TH| | | | | | | | | |TH|TH|TH
TH|TH| | | | | | | | | | | |TH|TH
TH|TH| | | | |PC|PC|PC| | | | |TH|TH
TH|TH| | | | |PC|PC|PC| | | | |TH|TH
TH|TH| | | | |PC|PC|PC| | | | |TH|TH
TH|TH| | | | | | | | | | | |TH|TH
TH|TH|TH| | | | | | | | | |TH|TH|TH
|TH|TH|TH| | | | | | | |TH|TH|TH|
|TH|TH|TH|TH| | | | | |TH|TH|TH|TH|
| |TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH| |
| | | |TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH|TH| | | |[/table]
Using a barbed whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.

You can make trip attacks with a barbed whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the barbed whip to avoid being tripped.

When using a barbed whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails).

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a barbed whip sized for you, even though it isnít a light weapon for you.


Reductions:

None
Additions:
Damage as the 3.0 Whip-Dagger, and increased one category like the whip from 3.0 to 3.5
Removed caveat about armored opponents, as per the 3.0 Whip-Dagger
Limited threatened squares, only 15 ft away, as depicted:
{table]||TH|TH|TH||
|TH||||TH|
TH||||||TH
TH|||PC|||TH
TH||||||TH
|TH||||TH|
||TH|TH|TH||[/table]
This change reflects how whips are actually used. The whip is kept in constant motion, able to lash out at anyone who gets too close. Anyone who gets inside the range of the whip, however, means the wielder has to compensate to hit them. This threat range means the barbed whip keeps enemies at range, or else! (for the attacker AND defender)
Because everything gets compared to the holy grail spiked chain.

Additions:
Double Critical Threat, from 20 to 19-20
5ft reach, from 10ft to 15ft
Threatens squares 15ft away
Reductions:
Threatens nothing within 10ft, from everything within 10ft
Provokes AoO upon attack
Swaps:
Slashing instead of Piercing type
One-Handed instead of Two-Handed

This means that like the spiked chain, you can attack an enemy before it get's within range. However, unlike the spiked chain, when the opponent is within your range, the wielder is in trouble that a 5ft step can't fix.

10/26: Posted
11/07: Added diagrams for size category changes according to SRD rules, at least as I interpret them..

Looking for feedback, let me know if there are any templating errors or other oversights, especially in wording. I made up some of the wording myself, and it may be improperly done. Also balance issues, anything in place that I may have overlooked that could become a problem under certain circumstances.

Feel free to play with it, and let me know how it goes!

Rizban
2013-10-26, 12:52 PM
Seems like a decent rewrite of the whip-dagger. What do you plan for it to cost? I don't see the price anywhere.

You missed a [/list] tag in the second spoiler.

CinuzIta
2013-10-26, 05:18 PM
the price is listed right after the size and before the damage on the weapon's table:)

Averis Vol
2013-10-26, 05:39 PM
This is an attempt to make a Whip weapon that's more viable and desirable by updating an old whip (the whip-dagger) and adding some realistic functionality and flavor.

Barbed Whip
Exotic One-Handed Melee
Critical: 19-20/◊2
Range Increment: ó
Type: Slashing
Hardness: 2
{table=head]Size|Cost|Damage|Weight|HP
Fine|*|1d2|*|*
Diminutive|*|1d3|*|*
Tiny|*|1d4|*|*
Small|25 gp|1d6|2 lb.|*
Medium|25 gp|1d8|3 lb.|*
Large|50 gp|2d6|4 lb.|*
Huge|*|3d6|*|*
Gargantuan|*|4d6|*|*
Colossal|*|6d6|*|*[/table]

Description

Any character who has proficiency with the whip is also proficient in the barbed whip.

The barbed whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you only threaten the area exactly 15ft away. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

Using a barbed whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.

You can make trip attacks with a barbed whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the barbed whip to avoid being tripped.

When using a barbed whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails).

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a barbed whip sized for you, even though it isnít a light weapon for you.


Reductions:

None
Additions:
Damage as the 3.0 Whip-Dagger, and increased one category like the whip from 3.0 to 3.5
Removed caveat about armored opponents, as per the 3.0 Whip-Dagger
Limited threatened squares, only 15 ft away, as depicted:
{table]||TH|TH|TH||
|TH||||TH|
TH||||||TH
TH|||PC|||TH
TH||||||TH
|TH||||TH|
||TH|TH|TH||[/table]
This change reflects how whips are actually used. The whip is kept in constant motion, able to lash out at anyone who gets too close. Anyone who gets inside the range of the whip, however, means the wielder has to compensate to hit them. This threat range means the barbed whip keeps enemies at range, or else! (for the attacker AND defender)
Because everything gets compared to the holy grail spiked chain.

Additions:
Double Critical Threat, from 20 to 19-20
5ft reach, from 10ft to 15ft
Threatens squares 15ft away
Reductions:
Threatens nothing within 10ft, from everything within 10ft
Provokes AoO upon attack
Swaps:[LIST]
Slashing instead of Piercing type
One-Handed instead of Two-Handed

This means that like the spiked chain, you can attack an enemy before it get's within range. However, unlike the spiked chain, when the opponent is within your range, the wielder is in trouble that a 5ft step can't fix.

10/26: Posted

Looking for feedback, let me know if there are any templating errors or other oversights, especially in wording. I made up some of the wording myself, and it may be improperly done. Also balance issues, anything in place that I may have overlooked that could become a problem under certain circumstances.

Feel free to play with it, and let me know how it goes!

Alright, since you've already started the comparison, lets continue between it and the spiked chain.

The spike chain has less total reach, yes, but it also isn't made obsolete if the enemy decides to close range with you.
spiked chain is two handed, which means better PA returns
Higher average damage


So, those are the differences I see. From a higher optimisation point, the spiked chain still wins, but with that being said, I do see one really strong point on the new whips record.

It can greatly assist bards who use snowflake wardance. They get the proficiency for free, and being inherently squishy, they get to stay at a range, like attacking from the other side of a grease spell. Other then that it is, essentially, a longsword with a 15 foot reach, which isn't bad.

Can it be used two handed? the prospect sounds silly, but if it can, it definitely raises the quality of it (Bonus points if you can keep finesse with it two handed).

All in all, for a free proficiency, I don't see any reason not to have one of these if you're a bard, and it would be a strong contender for a niche two weapon fighter with a good front line to stay behind.

Coidzor
2013-10-30, 07:19 PM
As I believe Rizban indicated, in your spoiler for "Comparison to Spiked Chain," the line "Reductions: Threatens nothing within 10ft, from everything within 10ft Provokes AoO upon attack" should have an end-list (["/list"]) tag on it.

On the whole, seems pretty good, though you may want to consider making it clear how the threatened squares work with a large-size user and how it scales up from there*, as well as touch upon how it works for Tiny characters and smaller**.

*Do they have reach 30' and closer and threaten 25-30 feet away as a Large creature? Just reach out to 30' and threaten 30' only? Or is their reach 25' with a barbed whip?

**[LIST] Do Tiny characters gain 10' reach, and only threaten 10' away, but can attack adjacent and within their square without penalty?

Do Diminuitive creatures gain the ability to attack and threaten adjacent squares?

Can Fine creatures threaten within their square and gain attacks of opportunity against creatures if they enter the square the Fine creature is in? Could they do that anyway without a barbed whip?


Wish I could recall how you're supposed to price them for larger and smaller creatures though. IIRC, you just halve or double the weight for each size category past Small or Large, but I can't find a source to back my memory up on that.

I can get you the formula for changing the HP for the item based upon its size though.
The hp value given is for Medium armor, weapons, and shields.

Divide by 2 for each size category of the item smaller than Medium, or multiply it by 2 for each size category larger than Medium. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#hitPoints)

Ripptor
2013-10-30, 09:46 PM
As I believe Rizban indicated, in your spoiler for "Comparison to Spiked Chain," the line "Reductions: Threatens nothing within 10ft, from everything within 10ft Provokes AoO upon attack" should have an end-list (["/list"]) tag on it.

On the whole, seems pretty good, though you may want to consider making it clear how the threatened squares work with a large-size user and how it scales up from there*, as well as touch upon how it works for Tiny characters and smaller**.

*Do they have reach 30' and closer and threaten 25-30 feet away as a Large creature? Just reach out to 30' and threaten 30' only? Or is their reach 25' with a barbed whip?

**[LIST] Do Tiny characters gain 10' reach, and only threaten 10' away, but can attack adjacent and within their square without penalty?

Do Diminuitive creatures gain the ability to attack and threaten adjacent squares?

Can Fine creatures threaten within their square and gain attacks of opportunity against creatures if they enter the square the Fine creature is in? Could they do that anyway without a barbed whip?


Wish I could recall how you're supposed to price them for larger and smaller creatures though. IIRC, you just halve or double the weight for each size category past Small or Large, but I can't find a source to back my memory up on that.

I can get you the formula for changing the HP for the item based upon its size though.

It seems I'm going to need to research exactly how size scaling works with weapons.. I'm unfamiliar with the really little races rules...

As for your theories per category, that's basically what I was thinking for the most of them, and what I'd adopt as a starting point for the others :) I'll have to return with exact specs after looking into the full explanations for different sizings...

Coidzor
2013-10-31, 01:32 AM
It seems I'm going to need to research exactly how size scaling works with weapons.. I'm unfamiliar with the really little races rules...

As for your theories per category, that's basically what I was thinking for the most of them, and what I'd adopt as a starting point for the others :) I'll have to return with exact specs after looking into the full explanations for different sizings...

I was trying to find those rules myself so I could nudge you towards them so you'd know what they were so you could conform to them or deliberately depart from them, but I couldn't recall for the life of me where they were, so if you're able to find them, I'd be interested to know where they are myself. :smallbiggrin:

Rizban
2013-10-31, 02:17 AM
Rules are on PHB pages 113 and 114.
The issues concerning reach are within the creature size category information.