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DwarfInTheFlask
2013-10-29, 10:09 PM
Has anyone ever done something like this?

Give the Swordsage the Flurry, Unarmed Damage, AC Bonus, Speed Movement, etc

Maybe give them a Maneuver book that lets them learn maneuvers and they can ready as many as a Warblade each day of their level, the same stance as well per day.

So for a lvl 1 it would be 3 Maneuvers readied and 1 stance known/readied every day but he could know half a dozen maneuvers just ready a specific amount each day.

Use the Swordsage Discipline list, and either a unique recovery method or use Warblade?

Monk (PF) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk)

Swordsage (3.5) (http://dndtools.eu/classes/swordsage/)

Warblade (3.5) (http://dndtools.eu/classes/warblade/)

Rizban
2013-10-30, 08:49 AM
I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're asking.

Are you asking if anyone has posted a swordsage//monk gestalt as a single class?

DwarfInTheFlask
2013-10-30, 09:24 AM
Yes in a way, more if someone has ever combined them more then just saying (Give it Unarmed Damage Progression and Flurry)

Rizban
2013-10-30, 10:09 AM
I saw something like that awhile back, but I can't remember who posted it. I guess my real question is this. What do you hope to get out of this? Are you wanting to play a monk that's actually decent? Are you just wanting Moar Powah? Are you just curious?

Amnoriath
2013-10-30, 10:09 AM
Yes in a way, more if someone has ever combined them more then just saying (Give it Unarmed Damage Progression and Flurry)
Are you asking it to be for Pathfinder? If so there is an easy solution that can really help out the Swordsage be a little more interesting while making up feats. You could give a specialist flavor to the Swordsage giving them a slight initiator level boost and list of free bonus feats for each discipline like the monk has.

DwarfInTheFlask
2013-10-30, 10:36 AM
I just want to see a monk with a seriously good design and powerful. I noticed in all the tier 1 challenge threads in the pages here none of them have a monk so I feel one of my favor classes get no love.

A Class that uses Monk Saves (All three good) gives AC if your armored or unarmored. Flurry of blows or flurry of Maneuvers style. Advancing Damage progression up to 2d10 at 20. Increases to base AC and base Speed making him move at 90 feet at level 20. But also give him access to special techniques and almost magical feel of the maneuvers and just the epic style of attacks. We have all heard lore about how powerful and deadly monks are.

Five finger exploding heart technique anyone?

So give them a manuever book that they can study and record techniques that they focus on each day and can change out from day to day. At lvl 20 he can ready 7 maneuvers per day and 4 stances that he can switch between. He can recover if he uses some type of recovery technique. Like a full round action to recover all his maneuvers for the day or something akin to that.

But the Maneuver book would allow me to act like a Wizard or Archivist in that he records new techniques in his quest for betterment of his technique and to learn so it can work fluff wise.

Or would this be to much?

DwarfInTheFlask
2013-10-30, 11:53 AM
Please remember I am a Noob, this is my first ever attempt at anything like this.

I am aware this class is very powerful, especially in comparison with other Martial Classes, What Tier would it qualify for and how best to balance it while still keeping the idea and feel of it.

Sage Monk

Adventures: In their constant pursuit of inner perfection the Sage Monk travels a lot, adventuring to test both her technique and her inner self.

Characteristics: WIP

Alignment: Any Neutral

Religion: Any, but mostly Neutral Deities.

Background: WIP

Races: WIP

Other Classes: WIP

Role: A Martial combatant with a verity of maneuvers and techniques.

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Sage Monk's have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Strength, Dex, and Wisdom are the Sage Monk's primary stats
Alignment: Any Neutral
Hit Die: d8
Starting Age: As Monk
Starting Gold: As Monk

Class Skills
The CLASS NAME's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) Balance
(Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy
(Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge
(arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Move
Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis),
Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier
{table=head]
Level|
Base Attack Bonus|
Fort Save|
Ref Save|
Will Save|
Special|
Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus|
Unarmed Damage|
AC Bonus|
Maneuvers Readied|
Stances Readied

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+2|
Bonus Feat, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus), Quick to Act +1|
1/1|
1d6|
+0|
3|
1

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3|
Bonus Feat, Evasion|
+0/+0|
1d6|
+0|
3|
2

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|
Fast Movement (+10ft), Combat Maneuver Training, Still Mind|
+1/+1|
1d6|
+0|
3|
2

4th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+4|
Ki Pool (Magic), Slow fall (20ft), Discipline Focus (Insightful Strike)|
+2/+2|
1d8|
+1|
4|
2

5th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+4|
High Jump, Purity of Body, Quick to Act +2|
+3/+3|
1d8|
+1|
4|
3

6th|
+4|
+5|
+5|
+5|
Bonus Feat, Slow Fall (30ft), Fast Movement (+20ft)|
+4+4/-1|
1d8|
+1|
4|
3

7th|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+5|
Ki Pool (Cold Iron/Silver), Wholeness of Body, Sense Magic|
+5/+5/+0|
1d8|
+1|
4|
3

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+6|
Discipline Focus (Defensive Stance), Slow Fall (40 ft)|
+6/+6/+1/+1|
1d10|
+2|
4|
3

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+6|
Improved Evasion, Fast Movement (+30ft)|
+7/+7/+2/+2|
1d10|
+2|
4|
4

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+7|
+7|
Bonus Feat, Ki Pool (Lawful/Chaotic), Slow Fall (50 ft), Quick to Act +3|
+8/+8/+3/+3|
1d10|
+2|
5|
4

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+7|
+7|
Diamond Body|
+9/+9/+4/+4/-1|
1d10|
+2|
5|
4

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+8|
+8|
Abundant Step, Slow Fall (60 ft), Discipline Focus (Insightful Strike), Fast Movement (+40ft)|
+10/+10/+5/+5/+0|
2d6|
+3|
5|
4

13th|
+10/+5|
+8|
+8|
+8|
Diamond Soul|
+11/+11/+6/+6/+1|
2d6|
+3|
5|
4

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+9|
Bonus Feat, Slow Fall (70 ft)|
+12/+12/+7/+7/+2|
2d6|
+3|
5|
5

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+9|
+9|
Quivering Palm, Quick to Act +4, Fast Movement (+50ft)|
+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3|
2d6|
+3|
6|
5

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+10|
Ki Pool (Adamantine), Slow Fall (80 Ft), Discipline Focus (Defensive Stance)|
+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/1|
2d8|
+4|
6|
5

17th|
+13/+8/+3|
+10|
+10|
+10|
Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon|
+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0|
2d8|
+4|
6|
5

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+11|
Bonus Feat, Slow Fall (90 ft), Fast Movement (+60ft)|
+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1|
2d8|
+4|
6|
5

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|
Empty Body|
+17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2|
2d8|
+4|
6|
5

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12|
Perfect Self, Slow Fall (Any Distance), Dual Boost 3/day, Quick to Act +5|
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3|
2d10|
+5|
7|
6[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the CLASS NAME.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: As a Sage Monk you are proficient with all Simple Weapons, Monk Weapons, And Light Armor but not with any shield.

Class Features:
[Same As Both Monk (Pathfinder), and Swordsage (ToB 3.5)]
Noteworthy Difference:
AC Bonus: At Level 1 the Sage Monk adds her Wis to her AC so long as she is unarmored or wearing Light Armor, The Light Armor cannot be made of anything mostly comprised of metal (Treat as Druid)
Flurry of Blows: The Sage Monk can intersperse their Flurry of Blows with not only unarmed attacks and weapon damage but also with maneuvers (Strike).
Maneuver Book: The Sage Monk carries with her a small tome in which she records techniques, stances, counters, etc (Maneuvers and Stances) that she learns along her journey. At every level the Sage Monk can add 2 new maneuvers to her Maneuver Book from a level in which she can perform the technique.

Amnoriath
2013-10-30, 12:01 PM
I just want to see a monk with a seriously good design and powerful. I noticed in all the tier 1 challenge threads in the pages here none of them have a monk so I feel one of my favor classes get no love.

A Class that uses Monk Saves (All three good) gives AC if your armored or unarmored. Flurry of blows or flurry of Maneuvers style. Advancing Damage progression up to 2d10 at 20. Increases to base AC and base Speed making him move at 90 feet at level 20. But also give him access to special techniques and almost magical feel of the maneuvers and just the epic style of attacks. We have all heard lore about how powerful and deadly monks are.

Five finger exploding heart technique anyone?

So give them a manuever book that they can study and record techniques that they focus on each day and can change out from day to day. At lvl 20 he can ready 7 maneuvers per day and 4 stances that he can switch between. He can recover if he uses some type of recovery technique. Like a full round action to recover all his maneuvers for the day or something akin to that.

But the Maneuver book would allow me to act like a Wizard or Archivist in that he records new techniques in his quest for betterment of his technique and to learn so it can work fluff wise.

Or would this be to much?

A blade scholar does this but I really don't think the monk should naturally be an academic. They ought to have other techniques that they learn innately.
http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1143716

DwarfInTheFlask
2013-10-30, 12:08 PM
How do you get that a Monk should spontaneously come about their techniques?
They spend their lives learning and honing skills and techniques, mostly through the effort put into physical and mental perfection pursuits.

Amnoriath
2013-10-30, 12:18 PM
How do you get that a Monk should spontaneously come about their techniques?
They spend their lives learning and honing skills and techniques, mostly through the effort put into physical and mental perfection pursuits.

Because monks don't run around with pages of maneuvers they just jotted down. Besides many of eastern monastics often perfected specific techniques or styles within their monasteries. Their dedication should be relfected in their ability stretch the limits of their body, not the spines of a text book.

DwarfInTheFlask
2013-10-30, 12:21 PM
My idea is a mix of Eastern and Western Monks. Monks in the West did indeed spread the spines of books quite a bit.

Also in the Eastern beliefs that is true they kept their techniques hidden and under strict control. But they did indeed have them written down. They did not just wake up with the knowledge of how to perform those techniques.

So while it is not perfect it is at least close to a mixture of both. Remember Monks where also philosophers as well, they where not just punch things till it falls down. Instead they perfected combat techniques to protect themselves while outside their walls, inside they studied.

~Corvus~
2013-10-30, 12:47 PM
Has anyone ever done something like this?

Give the Swordsage the Flurry, Unarmed Damage, AC Bonus, Speed Movement, etc


Absolutely!

ADAPTATION
...To create a monklike [sic] character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency....

DwarfInTheFlask
2013-10-30, 01:02 PM
I am aware of this notation but that hardly makes it monk-like just gives you two monk abilities and the rest is Swordsage posing as a monk. I am aware I should have worded that better but I mean give it more like the monk, the saves as MUCH better, the Flurry's rule on BAB = Class Level as well as some of the other class abilities.

This is more of a blending of the two. I do have ToB but I do not want to use that very vague adaptation, not to mention that also mentions the arcane variant which no one is sure of.

While I am aware most of the monk's class features are deemed worthless by most but they are required for Archetypes such as Qinggong

~Corvus~
2013-10-30, 01:05 PM
I am aware of this notation but that hardly makes it monk-like just gives you two monk abilities and the rest is Swordsage posing as a monk. I am aware I should have worded that better but I mean give it more like the monk, the saves as MUCH better, the Flurry's rule on BAB = Class Level as well as some of the other class abilities.

This is more of a blending of the two. I do have ToB but I do not want to use that very vague adaptation, not to mention that also mentions the arcane variant which no one is sure of.

While I am aware most of the monk's class features are deemed worthless by most but they are required for Archetypes such as Qinggong

I know others have done this; i'll reply later when I have access to the bookmarks on my laptop.

DwarfInTheFlask
2013-10-30, 01:07 PM
Well I posted my interpretation of what I would like to see, or something close to it.

Amnoriath
2013-10-30, 01:08 PM
My idea is a mix of Eastern and Western Monks. Monks in the West did indeed spread the spines of books quite a bit.

Also in the Eastern beliefs that is true they kept their techniques hidden and under strict control. But they did indeed have them written down. They did not just wake up with the knowledge of how to perform those techniques.

So while it is not perfect it is at least close to a mixture of both. Remember Monks where also philosophers as well, they where not just punch things till it falls down. Instead they perfected combat techniques to protect themselves while outside their walls, inside they studied.

Yes, but that doesn't mean they had access to every discipline. You admitted they didn't. It isn't that I believe they just woke up with it at all but training your body produces constant effects or abilities outside the end result of interpretting some text of others. Their life and code is their library and quill, books were merely a supplement. Mechanically it really comes down to whether you want a generalist or a specialist who can stretch beyond what their focus would normally do. The flavor and idea of the monk would seem to point to the latter. However if you really want a true tier 1 monk then it really isn't choice but you will need to look into more than just Tome of Battle disciplines and a simple theurge/gestalt.

DwarfInTheFlask
2013-10-30, 01:20 PM
A Tier 1 Monk is virtually impossible to produce while still keeping it indeed any feel of a monk (No spell casting for instance)
Although a Qinggong with this class above would do well to get me to tier 3.

Your idea of the monk is fine for one type of monk, the kung fu Monk. The problem is people really do think thats all monks did was practice martial arts and nothing more. Monks did far more then that, they held many religious views and where deep thinkers as well. So a Tome that they would scribe things down to is not out of the question. Yes they would have a master over them who would teach them the hands on approach but they also learned and studied from scrolls and books to learn techniques and insights to both meditation and the like.

Monks are more then just men who punch things till they fall down, they are intelligent beings who look for deeper meaning in their own lives and to further their quest for spiritual, mental, and physical perfect to find enlightenment.

So yes my idea is to cross the Western and Eastern Monk to make a monk who is a little more bookish but does not stray wildly from the true nature of the monk.

Western Monks where Scholars, they wrote the books that have lasted for ages, almost all old works of writing are products of a monk scribing down a copy at the very least. Their life was one of quite contemplation and journeying to understand.

Eastern Monks where much the same, but the divergent is that they did not have a church or the like to send armored and armed guards to watch them in their travels (I know most western monks did not either, my point is still valid) they had to train themselves physically to end a threat to themselves and their allies so they could continue on their way. Monks of this type where always defensive and would not attack first but they would be sure their technique was the last thing you would see.

Both sides had enemies, just look what the Anglo-Saxons did to the monasteries on the coast of England and the rest of Europe when they would raid them for gold and the like. Eastern Monks had the same problem, highwaymen and bandits attacking them to try and get to their precious relics that happened to be made of gold or had precious gems inlaid in them. While the Western Monk had people like Knights and the like to try and protect them and they themselves are more like the cleric that evolved from those monks the Eastern Monks would defend themselves as they did not align themselves solely with the body of government or a religious institution that had things like Knights or Paladins.

~Corvus~
2013-10-30, 01:36 PM
hnnrg. Monks are just....disgustingly bad as written in the SRD. Pathfinder took a horrible class and improved it to just bad. Tacking on the swordsage won't redeem them.

At low levels it would dip into the tier 5 range because it only knows 2-6 maneuvers--strictly worse than a Swordsage, and with the Swordsage's recovery mechanic--and will have significant trouble finding reliably usable maneuvers around levels 5-9, due to only gaining 2 maneuvers a level and being open to all schools. It could shift to mid-to-high tier 3 levels 13 onward, as it receives more than enough maneuvers at higher levels to reasonably last a single encounter. This class can pick up every level 9 maneuver if chosen intelligently. Without Adaptable Recovery, though, this class is doomed to stay a tier 4 class because of its abominable amount of maneuvers readied.

So this class trades 2 skillpoints/level and the potential to wear Mithral medium armor later on for good fortitude and Wis to AC at level 1 instead of level 2. And as already stated, access to a max of 40 maneuvers of any discipline for a substantial tradeoff of maneuvers readied. None of these tradeoffs appeal to me in the slightest.

Edit: your appeals based on your knowledge of history, while impressive, are somewhat irrelevant :smallconfused:

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-30, 01:36 PM
You could make a reasonably T1 monk-y thing by using my Myth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307285)class and changing out Charisma for Wisdom. For a more balanced interpretation, I wrote a ToB monk class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14783115) here.

Amnoriath
2013-10-30, 01:39 PM
A Tier 1 Monk is virtually impossible to produce while still keeping it indeed any feel of a monk (No spell casting for instance)
Although a Qinggong with this class above would do well to get me to tier 3.

Your idea of the monk is fine for one type of monk, the kung fu Monk. The problem is people really do think thats all monks did was practice martial arts and nothing more. Monks did far more then that, they held many religious views and where deep thinkers as well. So a Tome that they would scribe things down to is not out of the question. Yes they would have a master over them who would teach them the hands on approach but they also learned and studied from scrolls and books to learn techniques and insights to both meditation and the like.

Monks are more then just men who punch things till they fall down, they are intelligent beings who look for deeper meaning in their own lives and to further their quest for spiritual, mental, and physical perfect to find enlightenment.

So yes my idea is to cross the Western and Eastern Monk to make a monk who is a little more bookish but does not stray wildly from the true nature of the monk.

Western Monks where Scholars, they wrote the books that have lasted for ages, almost all old works of writing are products of a monk scribing down a copy at the very least. Their life was one of quite contemplation and journeying to understand.

Eastern Monks where much the same, but the divergent is that they did not have a church or the like to send armored and armed guards to watch them in their travels (I know most western monks did not either, my point is still valid) they had to train themselves physically to end a threat to themselves and their allies so they could continue on their way. Monks of this type where always defensive and would not attack first but they would be sure their technique was the last thing you would see.

Both sides had enemies, just look what the Anglo-Saxons did to the monasteries on the coast of England and the rest of Europe when they would raid them for gold and the like. Eastern Monks had the same problem, highwaymen and bandits attacking them to try and get to their precious relics that happened to be made of gold or had precious gems inlaid in them. While the Western Monk had people like Knights and the like to try and protect them and they themselves are more like the cleric that evolved from those monks the Eastern Monks would defend themselves as they did not align themselves solely with the body of government or a religious institution that had things like Knights or Paladins.

The western monk though is best replicated in the Cloistered Cleric or the Archivist. In actuality you could tweak the Shaman from Oriental Adventures however tier 1 isn't a goal here, correct? It isn't that I think the monk is only the one kind. The problem is that trying to incorporate the other part as an actual class mechanic along with the other mechanic and constant abilities can quickly lead to outclassing others that are actually good classes.

DwarfInTheFlask
2013-10-30, 01:44 PM
I do like those classes of yours Grod I would probably have used those had I happened upon them lol.

Now I know its best represented in those other classes as solely those types.

The problem is that D&D seems like they have made the Monk an Unarmed Fighter and that feel just doesn't show respect to what the Monk could be.

And no Tier 1 is not a Goal. I just want it to get the respect it deserves.

NosferatuZodd
2013-10-30, 07:05 PM
I am aware of this notation but that hardly makes it monk-like just gives you two monk abilities and the rest is Swordsage posing as a monk. I am aware I should have worded that better but I mean give it more like the monk, the saves as MUCH better, the Flurry's rule on BAB = Class Level as well as some of the other class abilities.

This is more of a blending of the two. I do have ToB but I do not want to use that very vague adaptation, not to mention that also mentions the arcane variant which no one is sure of.

While I am aware most of the monk's class features are deemed worthless by most but they are required for Archetypes such as Qinggong

How are they vague of the monk-style variant and how is no one sure of the arcane style variant when the instructions are right there in the book?

Like honestly, I don't see how a Swordsage couldn't work as a monk if you just did that variation, at least then you'd have 'Martial Arts' moves instead of just hitting really fast or just trying to smash two classes together.

DwarfInTheFlask
2013-10-30, 08:03 PM
Have you read that paragraph? Its one small section that says "Oh just replace this and that and give this and that and sure you sorta have a monk" Is kinda lame. And the Arcane just says switch your maneuvers for spells that you cast as maneuvers and that is vague do you learn them in the same rate, do you recover them as easily? Can you imagine something from level 9 Arcane spell list being recast over and over again with just a single round between them to recover them?

~Corvus~
2013-10-30, 08:12 PM
Regarding the spells re-write, Dwarf has a point: they are vague. Even so, they're more guidelines for a DM to mix a martial class with spells like a pseudo-gish.


I know others have done this; i'll reply later when I have access to the bookmarks on my laptop.

Following up on what I said I'd do: This new monk fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192781) and this classic monk fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122) are by far my favorites even though they do not feature ToB. Grod's remixes of standard classes into ToB are well-thought out though they generally have too few maneuvers readied for my taste.

TBH, I think the Swordsage and its monk-like fix in the ToB are excellent: Maneuvers can cover weak spots, you gain superior mobility via Tiger Claw, Shadow hand and Desert Wind. With Shadow Hand stances and Shadow Blade feat you can go Dex/Wis build and never give Str a second notice. Your base damage increases respectably, and you can even use the feat support to get damage of a monk 4 levels higher, effectively increasing your damage by a size category. Who needs a flurry of attacks when you have a +1 Shadow Hand Amulet of Natural Attacks? As long as you are in a Shadow Hand stance, that's a +4 to hit for an effective +2 weapon. Not bad at all, I say.

DwarfInTheFlask
2013-10-30, 08:15 PM
What about the table I posted earlier?

~Corvus~
2013-10-30, 08:20 PM
What about the table I posted earlier?

Refer to this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16322248&postcount=18). TL;DR: Dislike.

DwarfInTheFlask
2013-10-30, 08:22 PM
Must have missed the post, thank you. Have a good day.

~Corvus~
2013-10-30, 08:23 PM
Totally unrelated, but on a positive note, YESS ANOTHER FELLOW FMA FAN WOOO

DwarfInTheFlask
2013-10-30, 08:38 PM
Indeed, btw anyway for me to keep my title as Dwarf in the playground the same? It fits so dang well.

Rizban
2013-10-30, 10:17 PM
Indeed, btw anyway for me to keep my title as Dwarf in the playground the same? It fits so dang well.

No, unfortunately there isn't.