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Lanaya
2013-11-05, 06:08 PM
Paladin

Alignment: Any good.

Starting Gold: 6d4x10 gp (150 gp).

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4t h|5th|6th
1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Aura of good, smite evil 1/day, devotion|2|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Detect evil, divine grace|3|0|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Lay on hands|3|1|-|-|-|-|-
4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Special mount, devotion (Weapon Specialisation)|3|2|0|-|-|-|-
5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Purify, smite evil 2/day|3|3|1|-|-|-|
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Devotion (second domain)|3|3|2|-|-|-|-
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|-|3|3|2|0|-|-|-
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Consecrated aura, devotion (Greater Weapon Focus)|3|3|3|1|-|-|-
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Indomitable|3|3|3|2|-|-|-
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Smite evil 3/day|3|3|3|2|0|-|-
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Castigating gaze|3|3|3|3|1|-|-
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Devotion (third domain, Greater Weapon Specialisation)|3|3|3|3|2|-|-
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|-|3|3|3|3|2|0|-
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Hallowed aura, indomitable|4|3|3|3|3|1|-
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Fight on, smite evil 4/day|4|4|3|3|3|2|-
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|-|4|4|4|3|3|2|0
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Touch of life|4|4|4|4|3|3|1
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Divine intervention|4|4|4|4|4|3|2
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Indomitable|4|4|4|4|4|4|3
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Paragon of virtue, smite evil 5/day|4|4|4|4|4|4|4
[/table]

Hit Die: d10

Class Skills:
The paladinís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis) and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) ◊ 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all armour, and shields (including tower shields).

Spells
A paladin casts divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladinís spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladinís Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on the table above. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score. When a paladin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Charisma score for that spell level.

When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the paladinís spell list. You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time. Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells known list.

Add the following spells to the paladin's spell list:

0 Level: Cure minor wounds, detect poison, guidance, light, purify food and drink, resistance, virtue.

Aura of Good(Ex)
Paladins project an aura of virtue and fundamental goodness which inspires and comforts those around them. The power of a paladinís aura of good when viewed by the spell detect good is equal to her paladin level. Additionally, the paladin and all allies within 10 feet of her gain a +4 morale bonus on saves against fear effects.

At 3rd level, a paladin becomes immune to all fear effects.

Smite Evil (Ex)
With a righteous fury, a paladin destroys all evil in her path. Whenever a paladin makes an attack against an evil creature, that attack deals bonus damage equal to half her class level, to a minimum of 1 point of bonus damage. In addition, any attack made by a paladin is considered good-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Furthermore, once per day a paladin may smite evil with particular zeal. As a free action she may gain a bonus on attack rolls equal to her Charisma bonus, and a further bonus on damage equal to her Charisma bonus, on all attacks made against evil creatures for one round.

At 5th level, and every five levels thereafter, a paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, up to a maximum of five times per day at 20th level.

Devotion (Ex)
Most paladins worship a deity, or are at least granted some portion of divine power by one. A paladinís deity, who must be good-aligned, influences some of her abilities. First, a paladin gains the Weapon Focus feat for their deityís favoured weapon, and proficiency with it if she was not already proficient. She also gains access to one of her deityís domains, adding all spells associated with that domains to her list of known spells. (As the paladin spell list only extends to 4th level, this is usually the only way a paladin can learn 5th and 6th level spells.) She also gains the domain power of her chosen domain.

At 6th level, a paladin gains access to a second domain granted by her deity, and at 12th level she gains access to a third. Furthermore, at 4th level she gains Weapon Specialisation with her deityís favoured weapon as a bonus feat, at 8th level she gains Greater Weapon Focus for it, and at 12th level she gains Greater Weapon Specialisation for it.

Alternatively, a paladin may gain their powers from a source other than a deity. If this option is taken, they instead gain domain powers and a favoured weapon associated with thei alignment, as described below.

Lawful Good Ė Favoured weapon: longsword. Domains: Law, Good, War, Protection.
Neutral Good Ė Favoured weapon: warhammer. Domains: Good, Healing, Protection, Strength.
Chaotic Good Ė Favoured weapon: battleaxe. Domains: Good, Chaos, Protection, Destruction.

Detect Evil (Sp)
At will, a paladin of 2nd level may use detect evil, as the spell.

Divine Grace (Ex)
A paladin of 2nd level gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus on all saving throws. The bonus granted by this ability can never exceed half your paladin level, rounded up.

Lay on Hands (Su)
Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to twice her paladin level multiplied by her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesnít have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action.

Special Mount (Ex)
Upon reaching 4th level, a paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin) that accompanies the paladin on her adventures.

Should the paladinís mount die, it immediately returns to the celestial realm whence it came, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying, but not paladining or other equipment and magic items that it was wearing. The paladin may not summon it again for a full 24 hours after its death. Summoning her special mount is a full-round action and is considered a supernatural ability. When summoned, a paladinís special mount appears next to her in full health.

Purify (Su)
At 5th level, a paladin gains the ability to channel her healing powers into purging poison or disease. Whenever she uses her lay on hands ability, she may sacrifice 5 points of healing to remove the effects of any poison or disease from her target, including curing any damage done by that poison or disease.

Consecrated Aura (Su)
A paladin of 8th level or higher is constantly surrounded by an aura of purity and holiness. This aura is treated as a consecrate spell with a caste level equal to the paladinís level that is centred on and moves with her. The paladinís purity counts as an altar or shrine, doubling the effectiveness of the spell. This aura can be dispelled, but the paladin can create it again as a free action on her next turn.

Indomitable (Ex)
A 9th level paladinís willpower and virtue make her all but impossible to stop. She is immune to death spells and effects, as well as energy drain.

Castigating Gaze (Su)
At 11th level a paladin gains a gaze attack, which only functions against evil creatures. It has a range of 30 feet, and any creature affected by it is blinded until they leave its area unless they succeed on a will save (DC 10 + Ĺ your class level + your Charisma modifier).

Hallowed Aura (Su)
A 14th level paladinís consecrated aura ability improves. First, the radius of the consecrate spell surrounding her is doubled, to 40 feet. Second, a hallow spell is added to the aura. You may add a spell to your aura in the same way as a spell is added to the area of a hallow spell by casting that spell yourself and designating the aura as its target, but it only lasts for 24 hours.

Divine Grace (Ex)
A 15th level paladin gains Diehard as a bonus feat, and dies when she reaches a number of negative hit points equal to her Constitution score plus her Charisma score, rather than -10. For example, a paladin with 17 Charisma and 14 Constitution would die at -31 hit points.

Touch of Life (Sp)
Once per week, a 17th level paladin may restore life to the fallen. This functions as the spell true resurrection, but takes only a full-round action to cast.

Divine Intervention (Sp)
Once per day, a 18th level paladin can use miracle as a spell-like ability. If she uses a function of the spell which would require an XP cost, she must pay that cost.

Paragon of Virtue (Ex)
A paladin of 20th level is infused with a spark of the divine. She is not quite a demigod, but neither is she entirely mortal. She gains 3 additional hit points per hit die, damage reduction 10/epic, and immunity to ability damage. Additionally, she does not automatically fail any rolls on a roll of a 1. Her type changes to outsider, but she may choose to be considered a member of her previous type for the purpose of any spell or effect.

The Paladinís Mount
A paladinís mount is superior to others of its kind and has special powers. It gains the Celestial Creature template, as well as the bonuses described below. The standard mount of a medium paladin is a heavy warhorse, and the standard mount for a small paladin is a warpony. Another kind of mount, such as a riding dog or shark, may be allowed as well.

{table=head]Paladin Level|Bonus HD|Natural Amour Adj.|Str Adj.|Int|Special
4th-5th|+4|+4|+1|6|Empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws
6th-8th|+6|+6|+2|7|Improved speed
9th-11th|+8|+8|+3|8|Command creatures, flight
12th-14th |+10|+10|+4|9|Spell resistance
15th-17th |+12|+12|+5|10|Half-celestial
18th-20th |+14|+14|+6|11|Gate
[/table]

Empathic Link (Su)
The paladin has an empathic link with her mount out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The paladin cannot see through the mountís eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Note that even intelligent mounts see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible. Because of this empathic link, the paladin has the same connection to an item or place that her mount does, just as with a master and his familiar.

Improved Evasion (Ex)
When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a mount takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage if the saving throw fails.

Share Spells
At the paladinís option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts on herself also affect her mount. The mount must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the mount if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the mount again even if it returns to the paladin before the duration expires.

Additionally, the paladin may cast a spell with a target of "You" on her mount (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A paladin and her mount can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the mountís type (magical beast).

Share Saving Throws
For each of its saving throws, the mount uses its own base save bonus or the paladinís, whichever is higher. The mount applies its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesnít share any other bonuses on saves that the master might have.

Improved Speed (Ex)
The mountís speed increases by 20 feet.

Command Creatures (Sp)
A mount can use this ability to command other any normal animal of approximately the same kind as itself (for warhorses and warponies, this category includes donkeys, mules, and ponies), as long as the target creature has fewer Hit Dice than the mount. This ability functions like the command spell. Each target may attempt a Will save (DC 10 + Ĺ paladinís level + paladinís Cha modifier) to negate the effect. Additionally, all creatures of the mountís kind are friendly to it by default, unless they would ordinarily be helpful.

Flight (Ex)
The mount gains a fly speed equal to its normal movement speed, with average manoeuverability.

Spell Resistance (Ex)
The mountís spell resistance improves by 5.

Half-Celestial
The mountís connection to the celestial realms increases. It loses the Celestial Creature template and replaces it with the Half-Celestial template.

Gate (Sp)
The mount can use gate as a spell-like ability three times per day (interplanar travel only).

Angelalex242
2013-11-05, 06:36 PM
Where'd our charisma to saves go? Taking the Paladin's best feature away, not a good idea...

Disease Immunity wasn't that awesome, but it's iconic enough that I wonder where it went...

Note Hallow comes with a magic circle vs. evil effect woven into it, with all that entails.

Lanaya
2013-11-05, 09:23 PM
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be of good alignment loses the majority of their paladin abilities. She can no longer cast paladin spells, and loses all paladin class features, except for her special mount, which loses the celestial template but remains a magical beast. If she properly repents for the actions which caused her to lose her good alignment and receives an atonement spell, she regains her class features. However, her patron deity may not be so forgiving, depending on the circumstances and that deityís personal inclinations Ė generally speaking, chaotic deities will be more likely to forgive and forget than lawful deities, for instance. If the paladin had a deity who will not accept her back into the fold, she may either try to find a new patron or gain new domains and a new favoured weapon based on her alignment rather than deity.

Crises of Faith
A paladin who loses her patron deity without losing her good alignment, either because she acted against the wishes of her deity or they lost faith in her former patron, loses her domains and favoured weapon. If she receives an atonement spell, she may gain new ones based on her alignment, regain her old deityís domains and favoured weapon with that deityís permission, or begin worshipping a different deity and gain their domains and favoured weapon, if that new deity is willing to grant her those powers. Note that some deities may not be inclined to take in paladins who abandoned their former patron, and a paladin who makes a habit of doing so will quickly find that no deities will accept them.

Fallen Paladins
An ex-paladin who changes to an evil alignment may choose to fall rather than seek atonement. A fallen paladin is a terrible sight to behold, an agent of evil and darkness, a twisted image of a person who once represented virtue and holiness. Her hatred of good burns more fiercely than that of any being born evil, as she bitterly tries to erase any trace of kindness that once existed in her soul. A fallen paladin immediately becomes a blackguard (see below). A simple atonement spell cannot restore her to her former, holy self if she does see the light once more; direct divine intervention is the only way for a fallen paladin to replace her blackguard abilities with paladin abilities once more.

Blackguards
Some are born to evil, they delight in spreading pain and misery and dedicate their lives to it in the same way that a paladin dedicates their life to spreading good. Others begin as virtuous souls, but are corrupted and become agents of darkness. Whether they were born or made, a blackguard is a twisted mockery of a paladin, and gains many of the same abilities, although they are twisted and evil.

Spells
A blackguard draws spells from the blackguard spell list, rather than the paladin list. Add the following spells to the blackguard's spell list:

0 Level: Daze, guidance, inflict minor wounds, resistance, touch of fatigue.

Aura of Good
A blackguard gains an aura of evil rather than an aura of good. The power of her aura of evil when viewed by the spell detect evil is equal to her blackguard level. The bonuses she grants against fear effects come about through intimidation rather than inspiration.

Smite Evil
A blackguard gains the ability to smite good instead of evil. This ability functions the same way as a paladinís smite evil ability, but functions against good targets.

Devotion
A blackguardís deity must be evil, rather than good. If a blackguard has no deity, their favoured weapon and domains are as follows:

Lawful Evil Ė Favoured weapon: Greatsword. Domains: Evil, Law, Death, Strength.
Neutral Evil Ė Favoured weapon: Scythe. Domains: Evil, Fire, Death, Trickery.
Chaotic Evil Ė Favoured weapon: Heavy flail. Domains: Evil, Chaos, Destruction, Trickery.

Detect Evil
A blackguard gains the ability to use detect good rather than detect evil.

Divine Grace
A blackguard's divine grace is called dark grace.

Lay on Hands
A blackguard gains the deadly touch ability instead of lay on hands. Each day she can deal a total amount of damage equal to twice her blackguard level multiplied by her Charisma bonus by making a touch attack as a standard action. A blackguard may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesnít have to use it all at once. A successful Fortitude save (DC 10 + Ĺ your blackguard level + your Charisma modifier) halves the damage.

Special Mount
A blackguardís special mount gains the fiendish creature template instead of the celestial creature template. At 15th level it loses the fiendish creature template and gains the half-fiend template.

Purify
A blackguard gains the corrupt ability instead of purify. By sacrificing 5 points of deadly touch damage, she can poison the its target. The initial and secondary damage of this poison is 1d4 Strength damage, and the save DC is 10 + Ĺ your blackguard level + your Charisma modifier.

Consecrated Aura
A blackguard gains a desecrated aura instead of a consecrated aura, creating a desecrate spell instead of consecrate. Its effects are doubled as though the blackguard were a permanent altar or shrine, like the paladinís consecrated aura.

Castigating Gaze
A blackguard gains a debilitating gaze in place of a castigating gaze. The save DC is the same for the debilitating gaze, but instead of inflicting blindness on a failed save it makes its victim sickened and deals 1d10 damage to them. Furthermore, it affects neutral and good creatures instead of evil creatures.

Hallowed Aura
A blackguard gains an unhallowed aura instead of a hallowed aura, doubling the area of their personal desecrate spell and creating an unhallow spell. It otherwise functions as a paladinís hallowed aura.

Touch of Life
A blackguard gains the touch of death instead of the touch of life. By touching a creature as a standard action and expending 20 points of deadly touch damage, they can force that creature to make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Ĺ your blackguard level + your Charisma bonus) or die.

Paragon of Virtue
A blackguard becomes a Vile Paragon rather than a Paragon of Virtue. Other than the change of name the ability remains the same.

Ex-Blackguards
A blackguard who ceases to be of evil alignment loses her blackguard class features and spells, except for her special mount, which loses the fiendish template but remains a magical beast. If she redoubles her dedication to spreading evil and suffering, and receives an atonement spell, she regains her class features. However, her patron deity may not be so forgiving, depending on the circumstances and that deityís personal inclinations Ė generally speaking, chaotic deities will be more likely to forgive and forget than lawful deities, for instance. If the blackguard had a deity who will not accept her back into the fold, she may either try to find a new patron or gain new domains and a new favoured weapon based on her alignment rather than deity.

Crises of Faith
A blackguard who loses her patron deity without losing her evil alignment, either because she acted against the wishes of her deity or they lost faith in her former patron, loses her domains and favoured weapon. If she receives an atonement spell, she may gain new ones based on her alignment, regain her old deityís domains and favoured weapon with that deityís permission, or begin worshipping a different deity and gain their domains and favoured weapon, if that new deity is willing to grant her those powers. Note that some deities may not be inclined to take in blackguards who abandoned their former patron, and a blackguard who makes a habit of doing so will quickly find that no deities will accept them.

Redeemed Blackguards
An ex-blackguard who changes to a good alignment may choose to redeem themselves rather than seek atonement. She has eradicated the evil in her soul, and fights all the harder and more effectively for once having been an evildoer. However, good is not always as accepting of new recruits as the forces of evil are. A redeemed blackguard must seek an atonement spell, if she receives one, she immediately becomes a paladin. Sometimes a blackguard may redeem themselves with such conviction and heroism that they do not need an atonement spell, at the DMís discretion. A simple atonement spell cannot restore her to her former, unholy self if she falls again, as the forces of darkness are not likely to trust someone who has betrayed them once; direct divine intervention is the only way for a redeemed to replace her paladin abilities with blackguard abilities once more.

Rebonack
2013-11-05, 09:39 PM
I'll echo the earlier comment and wonder where Cha mod to Saves went. That, Smite, Lay on Hands, and the Mount are sorta the Paladin's calling card abilities.

Though bumping spellcasting from Wis over to Cha makes quite a bit of sense and helps to alleviate the Paladin's MAD a bit. Depending on how the spell list is put together I can see this modified Pally falling into T3, though I'm not sure how effectively they would compete with the Crusader.

I suppose the question to ask is, what is the role this class fulfills? What is their thing that distinguishes them from other martial smashy-healy classes?

toapat
2013-11-05, 10:52 PM
I'll echo the earlier comment and wonder where Cha mod to Saves went. That, Smite, Lay on Hands, and the Mount are sorta the Paladin's calling card abilities.

Though bumping spellcasting from Wis over to Cha makes quite a bit of sense and helps to alleviate the Paladin's MAD a bit. Depending on how the spell list is put together I can see this modified Pally falling into T3, though I'm not sure how effectively they would compete with the Crusader.

I suppose the question to ask is, what is the role this class fulfills? What is their thing that distinguishes them from other martial smashy-healy classes?

id argue that the mount isnt wholly paladins thing, and actually belongs moreso to the Knight/Cavalier. Granted, everyone agrees something BIG should be there, which considering half of the BIGness of the area is lost to the fullcasting and removal of turn undead as a resource, leaving the Only goody one that shoehorns the paladin into a dedicated and specific role

as far as balance, largely bumping up the spellcasting as paladin, regardless of how much you buff the list, doesnt actually help, while making them into spells known casters is detrimental to the point where they are probably middling Tier 4 where as Crusader is Pseudo-Tier 3. The crusader does not meet the criteria of tier 3 (extremely good at one thing + useful elsewhere or never incompetent) however barring limitless and near-limitless optimization will typically outperform anyone else in combat except for warblades.

honestly, to me, atm it only looks like a refined Favored with actual class features as opposed to being a wholly useless spontaineous cleric.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-11-05, 11:41 PM
as far as balance, largely bumping up the spellcasting as paladin, regardless of how much you buff the list, doesnt actually help, while making them into spells known casters is detrimental to the point where they are probably middling Tier 4
Erm. Bard casting (which this essential is) makes for a T3 class. The casting looks fine.

This is a pretty neat fix, all things considered. Solid casting plus neat class features makes for a reliable class. Lack of Divine Grace is a bit odd, but not unbalancing. Really, my only complaint is that Smite Evil is still mediocre. The continual damage bonus is nice, and probably hits all the points you need it to, but... man, it rubs me the wrong way that yelling "SMITE EVIL!" doesn't actually accomplish much. Especially with the "real" smite being so limited.

Rebonack
2013-11-05, 11:53 PM
Hmm...

As a random out of left field concept instead of making Smite Evil a per-day ability of the usual sort why not allow them to instead burn spell slots in order to use Smite Evil? Plus Cha Mod to hit, +2d6 damage per spell level of the slot used. Sort of a more smite-y version of Arcane Strike.

I suspect that would help to distinguish them from the other healy-bopper classes.


Erm. Bard casting (which this essential is) makes for a T3 class. The casting looks fine.

For what it's worth the Bard isn't T3 just because of their casting. It's the casting combined with their nice collection of class skill and general utility.

toapat
2013-11-06, 12:14 AM
Erm. Bard casting (which this essential is) makes for a T3 class. The casting looks fine.

2/3rds caster doesnt actually mean automatic tier 3, the duskblade, for instance, has a total of 25 spells in class which consist of exactly 0 first level spells, and only 4-6 of which are touch spells. as far as i can see, nothing a rogue wouldnt do well in a duskblade could within class only. The adept also has 2/3rds casting and is considered only a tier 4 class. And, as said above, The bard is Tier 3 because they have alot besides the casting

Actually though, the problem is the mentality behind giving paladins lengthened casting is moreso based on miss-perception of the tier system (basically, number of Spell Levels, as you correctly point out, go up with the tier on average). Hell, i know outright my first paladin attempt (which never was published on here) expanded casting and it largely did nothing other then add a layer of clutter, which i admit to having never gone back and dealt with since, however have at least reached a point where id call my own paladin "feature complete" and just in need of Spellcasting Patch 2.0 "Options Overwhelming". which i need to get to at some point:procrastinate:

Yakk
2013-11-06, 12:35 AM
Smite Evil needs rewording. The passive damage bonus should be a different ability. Call the passive ability "slay evil".

The active ability is Smite Evil.

Once per round you can attempt to Smite Evil. To do so, select an unexpended spell slot. Gain a bonus to your attack roll equal to Cha+Spell level. If you hit, you expend the spell slot and deal +1d6+2d6 per level of the spell holy damage. If the target is an evil or undead one reduced to 0 HP, you gain a spell slot 1 level lower than the expended one (min 0).

A 4th level spell slot gives you +cha+4 to hit and +9d6 damage.

Smite Evil should work on any target. However, if the Paladin uses it on a non-evil non-undead target, the expended spell slot cannot be regained until the act is atoned.

...

I would include the +Cha to saves, maybe (Paladin level or Cha, whichever is less) to saves?

silphael
2013-11-06, 06:18 AM
First, as said earlier, I kinda think you should keep cha to saves. Making it harder to dip isn't a bad idea, though, so around 5-7th level could be nice.

Second, the mount is far too much a concept thing than a class thing : imo it shouldn't be the only option for the paly. Maybe using PF divine bound? Furthermore, your mount has no written progression above 14th level. Is that intended? It's at those levels that something like a mount will die really easily. If you're looking for mount features, adding the template half-celestial could do a lot for it (and make it far more intelligent than our poor paly-boy, but we usually don't care...).

Lastly (I think) if you make casting Cha based... why not making it spontaneous with access to whole paly list? I mean, paly should be easy to play, and having to choose few spells in a very short list can just make that daily list full of mistakes. That would mean more slots per level, too, and keeping in mind that the paly won't skyrocket his cha as high as a primary caster he'll need it to do more than just casting one spell once.
The idea behind domain casting is nice, but... why not giving them access to casting all domains from their god/source?

BWR
2013-11-06, 06:30 AM
I'll say waht I always say to people trying to fix the paladin: check out the Pathfinder pally (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/paladin.html#_paladin).
Between the core class and the archetypes you get a pretty solid and varied paladin.

toapat
2013-11-06, 08:20 AM
I'll say waht I always say to people trying to fix the paladin: check out the Pathfinder pally (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/paladin.html#_paladin).
Between the core class and the archetypes you get a pretty solid and varied paladin.

neither of your claims in relation to what the PF paladin is, are actually correct in relation to the factual options and power it has in relation to the 3.5 Paladin.

The 3.5 Paladin, with enough refferences, is the class in core that is strengthened the most (bard is a close second with their buffs being moreso reinforcing the one weakpoint of the class.)

the actual mandatory read for paladin homebrewing is this Handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html). i cant tell you what to take from it but it, but knowing how a class works is more important.

Lanaya
2013-11-06, 05:35 PM
I myself never saw the Charisma to saves effect as being a particularly iconic part of a paladin - probably the most powerful ability they had, but not the most iconic, in the same way that ice assassin may be a better spell than, say, meteor swarm, but the latter is more important to the concept of a wizard. But it seems that I'm in the minority here, so I'll look for a good place to put it back in.

Angelalex242: I got rid of the disease immunity class feature because lay on hands can get rid of diseases or poisons many times each day. It seemed a bit redundant at that point. The constant magic circle was intentional, but I did forget that it grants immunity to mind controlling effects, so the indomitable ability that gives immunity to mind-affecting isn't as useful as I thought. I'll rework it.

Rebonack: To be honest, I didn't have any strong idea of a role in mind, I'm just in the process of converting various interesting or iconic classes to tier 3 status. My only thought in that regard was that it should be a different type of holy warrior than the crusader - still a martial class who heals people and has a divine element, or at least strong convictions, but a more overtly magical one.

toapat: It is indeed a different spin in the favoured soul concept, as part of my plot to make the paladin more overtly divine I decided to mix the paladin and FS together. But I disagree on your assessment of its tier. This paladin can fight well, heal, socialise, and cast all kinds of spells thanks to domain access, they have access to mobility in the form of a fast, flying mount, throws around passive boosts from the auras and weakens enemies with gaze, can still detect evil at will. Compare that to the beguiler, a pretty solid tier 3 class, who can use enchantment and illusions and little else.

Grod the Giant: The active SMITE EVIL effect is a little underwhelming in the damage department. I don't really want to just pile up more damage until it becomes strong enough, but I was considering having a choice of additional effects tied to it, might be a good idea to do that.

silphael: Whoops, it should indeed have progression after 14th level, I'll fix that. My reasoning behind limiting them to 3 domains is that some deities only have three, while others get four (might even be some with more than that, I'm not sure), and I didn't want to make a clear imbalance between paladins of different deities. Spontaneous access to all paladin spells might be a good idea, I'll check it out.

Mount: I agree that not every paladin needs to have a mount, I was planning on making a few ACFs which trade it out for something else.

Edit: Original post is updated. Cha to saves is back, capped at half your paladin level, the mind-affecting immunity is out and the other two indomitable effects are gained at fixed levels, mount has scaling beyond level 14.

toapat
2013-11-06, 06:25 PM
toapat: It is indeed a different spin in the favoured soul concept, as part of my plot to make the paladin more overtly divine I decided to mix the paladin and FS together. But I disagree on your assessment of its tier. This paladin can fight well, heal, socialise, and cast all kinds of spells thanks to domain access, they have access to mobility in the form of a fast, flying mount, throws around passive boosts from the auras and weakens enemies with gaze, can still detect evil at will. Compare that to the beguiler, a pretty solid tier 3 class, who can use enchantment and illusions and little else.

I think you are putting too much faith in exactly how strong domains are (barring the rare exception such as Spell or Knowledge, they are near, universally, useless.), which is to say vastly too much. as well as too much faith in the inherent strength of paladin mechanics beyond the Horse (which itself is worthless because of being a CR0 creature with no scaling until you start hammering it with templates that give it weapons or spells)

and, as i correctly assessed, you actually provided literally no increase in power with the spellcasting over other paladin homebrews (See, any of Grods, any of mine, TG Oskar's project Heretica).

You did NOT improve the paladin's healing abilities, their class skills do not include the full set of Interaction or Movement skills

Your smite Evil change is interesting, but creates a situation wherein the paladin while using smite evil is not actually better then the fighter, something that at least core paladin can achieve

your Evasion+mettle Divine Grace is so outdated by the point that you get it, that if it wasnt both, it would be worthless, as is its extremely underpowered.

edit: one thing i did miss, This class Removes Undead from the campaign entirely, because of the permanent hallow aura and that hallow's negation of the ability to create undead/undead rising on their own is permanent and Not even stopped by Unhallow

Grod_The_Giant
2013-11-06, 09:28 PM
and, as i correctly assessed, you actually provided literally no increase in power with the spellcasting over other paladin homebrews (See, any of Grods, any of mine, TG Oskar's project Heretica).
Did you not notice that... actually, wait a tic. Lanaya, one table goes up to 6th level spells, and the other only goes up to 4th. Which is correct?

Also, domains are pretty useful, toapat-- especially since you trade crappy powers out for Devotion feats. Three extra spells known/level is not to be sneezed at.


You did NOT improve the paladin's healing abilities, their class skills do not include the full set of Interaction or Movement skills
Bluff isn't very Paladin-y, but you can pick it back up via the Trickery domain, if you want it. Intimidate is a bit of an odd lack, but let's be honest-- that's a pretty decent skill list.

Your smite Evil change is interesting, but creates a situation wherein the paladin while using smite evil is not actually better then the fighter, something that at least core paladin can achieve


your Evasion+mettle Divine Grace is so outdated by the point that you get it, that if it wasnt both, it would be worthless, as is its extremely underpowered.
What are you talking about? I don't see anything of either sort...


edit: one thing i did miss, This class Removes Undead from the campaign entirely, because of the permanent hallow aura and that hallow's negation of the ability to create undead/undead rising on their own is permanent and Not even stopped by Unhallow
I don't think that's the correct reading. The hallow effect is tied to your aura-- as soon as you walk away, undead can be raised again.

Lanaya
2013-11-06, 09:42 PM
Grod: I originally changed divine grace to be evasion + mettle, but enough people said that they preferred the Cha to saves that I changed it back. As for the spell tables clashing, the spells known table doesn't extend to 6th level because you don't learn any 5th or 6th level paladin spells and the spells you pick up from domains aren't included in the spells known table. I originally had it extend to 5th and 6th levels and had a note pointing out that you don't gain any spells of these levels by default, but it looked messy so I dropped them.

And yes, the hallow's effect ends the moment you're not standing there any more, so undead can't be created in your presence, but once you leave they can freely be raised.

toapat
2013-11-06, 09:47 PM
Did you not notice that... actually, wait a tic. Lanaya, one table goes up to 6th level spells, and the other only goes up to 4th. Which is correct?

Also, domains are pretty useful, toapat-- especially since you trade crappy powers out for Devotion feats. Three extra spells known/level is not to be sneezed at.

Bluff isn't very Paladin-y, but you can pick it back up via the Trickery domain, if you want it. Intimidate is a bit of an odd lack, but let's be honest-- that's a pretty decent skill list.

What are you talking about? I don't see anything of either sort...

I don't think that's the correct reading. The hallow effect is tied to your aura-- as soon as you walk away, undead can be raised again.

1: the only 5+6 level spells are the domain spells, That means Spell domain is a manditory grab
1b: Domain feats do not need domain pools

2: There are times it is better to lie then tell someone the brutal truth. otherwise it is the same skill list as base paladin. as for the rest of the added skills, i was just pointing out that its not all of social or mobility options given, diplomacy is not necessarily the uberskill

3: Smite evil Passive: +1/2 Paladin level to damage. The weapon mastery line? +10 damage. then +Cha to hit+damage on one attack.
Divine grace while i was posting was Evasion + Mettle (any Fort/Reflex for half negated entirely or Wisdom partial negated entirely on pass) at level 15.

4: sure, but anywhere touched by a hallow spell permanently negates undead creation even after the effect has expired, and only wish/miracle can allow for undead afterwards


And yes, the hallow's effect ends the moment you're not standing there any more, so undead can't be created in your presence, but once you leave they can freely be raised.

actually, Hallow lasts 1 year, and the undead negation is until the end of time.

Lanaya
2013-11-06, 09:59 PM
4: sure, but anywhere touched by a hallow spell permanently negates undead creation even after the effect has expired, and only wish/miracle can allow for undead afterwards

Where does it say that?

Also, the activated part of smite evil applies to all attacks made for one round, not just one attack.

toapat
2013-11-06, 10:06 PM
Where does it say that?

Also, the activated part of smite evil applies to all attacks made for one round, not just one attack.

"Third, any dead body interred in a hallowed site cannot be turned into an undead creature."

while logically this should only be in the 1 year of the effects of Hallow, hallowed does not reference that the site itself has to be actively under the effects of the Hallow spell. Litterally anywhere within 40' of the casting of the Hallow spell is incapable of providing raisable corpses. And removing the corpses doesnt work. Simply being in the AoE of Hallow permanently seals the corpse and soul.

the cha bonus to attack and damage for a round still doesnt outdo what a fighter can do. The reason why Smite evil is strong is it is so much damage boost over and above what Barbarian or Fighter gets

Lanaya
2013-11-06, 10:13 PM
"Third, any dead body interred in a hallowed site cannot be turned into an undead creature."

I can see two logical interpretations of that statement:

A - If a body is interred in a site which is hallowed at the time of interrment, that body can never be raised as an undead, no matter what.
B - If a body is interred in a site which is currently hallowed, it cannot be raised as an undead.

Under interpretation A, you would need a paladin of 14th level or higher overseeing every single burial, in which case you should probably stop playing in Faerun. Furthermore, every single corpse in the world would need to be buried - if a hermit dies, or a merchant caravan is ambushed by orcs and slaughtered, chances are no internment will occur. Either way, a cleric of 9th level can accomplish the same thing by simply casting hallow. It costs a bit of money, but money tends to be more readily available than 14th level characters. Under interpretation B, you would need a paladin standing on top of every grave in existence, which is not particularly realistic.

toapat
2013-11-06, 10:40 PM
*falacy*

Hallow actually does not Define Hallowed as a term, it defines Holy Site as a term, and connects the first and fourth effects to such, while the second and third are linked to the casting of hallow.

the actual mistake i made is that the Spell Effect of hallow is what last 1 year, not Hallow itself. Hallow is instantaneous meaning the effects are permanent and non-dispelable unless stated (which it is not) or reversed with Wish/Miracle

Lanaya
2013-11-06, 10:54 PM
Hallow actually does not Define Hallowed as a term, it defines Holy Site as a term, and connects the first and fourth effects to such, while the second and third are linked to the casting of hallow.

the actual mistake i made is that the Spell Effect of hallow is what last 1 year, not Hallow itself. Hallow is instantaneous meaning the effects are permanent and non-dispelable unless stated (which it is not) or reversed with Wish/Miracle

I don't know what point you're trying to make, but I can say with some certainty that you aren't using the word fallacy correctly.

toapat
2013-11-06, 11:19 PM
I don't know what point you're trying to make, but I can say with some certainty that you aren't using the word fallacy correctly.

"An informal fallacy is an error in reasoning that does not originate in improper logical form."

nope, Entirely correct. Your assumption is that hallowed means something in relation to the rules. It doesnt. We say that a creature is Hasted when it is under the effects of the haste spell, but Hasted is that, a conjecture of an idea without meaning in the actual rules as far as rules go.

Lanaya
2013-11-06, 11:28 PM
"An informal fallacy is an error in reasoning that does not originate in improper logical form."

nope, Entirely correct. Your assumption is that hallowed means something in relation to the rules. It doesnt. We say that a creature is Hasted when it is under the effects of the haste spell, but Hasted is that, a conjecture of an idea without meaning in the actual rules as far as rules go.

You clearly understood that what I meant by 'hallowed' was 'currently under the effects of hallow'. All you're doing is utterly irrelevant nitpicking.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-11-06, 11:37 PM
You clearly understood that what I meant by 'hallowed' was 'currently under the effects of hallow'. All you're doing is utterly irrelevant nitpicking.
It is the internet. Just add a few lines to clarify how the aura interacts with an instantaneous-duration spell and call it a day. Don't stress too much about what one person is saying-- at the end of the day, it's your class, not his.

Also, on the subject of spells known-- my fault for not reading closely enough. If I might suggest a slight alteration to the "spells known" table... have each entry take the form of "2+D" or some such, to indicate the domain spells/known. That way you can still have an entry for 5th and 6th level spells and help avert future reading errors.

toapat
2013-11-06, 11:45 PM
You clearly understood that what I meant by 'hallowed' was 'currently under the effects of hallow'. All you're doing is utterly irrelevant nitpicking.

incorrect

Nitpicking in 3rd is the highest Artform of Making sure something is Working As Intended.

Lanaya
2013-11-07, 04:11 PM
Made a couple changes, paladins now know all paladin spells plus their domain spells. Also gave them level 0 spells, previously they could learn and cast them but there weren't any level 0 spells on the paladin or domain lists. Whoops.

Yakk
2013-11-08, 11:36 AM
Smite Evil (Ex)
Remains horribly worded. Split it into two abilities, one always-on, the other activated.

Zeal (Ex) can be the half her class level (min 1) bonus damage against evil creatures she hits.

Smite Evil (Ex) would then be the activated ability. This makes "an additional use" and the like far easier to write. Oh, and how about a smite every odd level? :)

Divine Grace (Ex) -- make capped by at least your Paladin level. At level 20, having more than 30 Charisma is quite possible! And +2 to all saves is not worth a 2 level dip.

Lay on Hands (Su) -- how about (Charisma)*(Paladin level) healed per use, and 1 use per 2 Paladin levels? It does make it worse (in that you cannot efficiently heal 1 point of damage), but total amount healed now grows quadradically, so it scales better. And "lay on hands" is not "pool of extra HP you have to keep track of", but rather "boom, full health sucka".

Then "uses of lay on hands" and "uses of smite" can both be resources we can spend on other abilities.

Special Mount (Ex) -- We could split this into a whole host of abilities which involves summoning Holy Implements to aid in her quest. A Holy Mount could be one such element -- Holy Swords, Holy Armor, Holy Advisors could also be added.

Purify (Su) -- So, someone is hit by a poison, and is reduced to -5 HP by it. Purify then removes the damage? What if the target died by poison?

If we go with "Lay on Hands" is X/day thing, Purify could read "expend an extra use of Lay on Hands"?

We should also make the Paladin immune to all diseases and poisons at some point.

Consecrated Aura (Su) -- Make it a standard action and a use of Lay on Hands instead of a free action to recreated: then you can have a Paladin and an Evil Cleric fighting against each other with raw holy energy...

Castigating Gaze (Su) -- so a Paladin walking through a town will blind a non-trivial percentage of people?

Touch of Life (Sp) -- while nice, gaining the ability to cast a 9th level spell at 17th level is far weaker of a class feature than a spellcaster gains. Being able to do it once per week...

If you changed it to "as a standard action", now we are talking awesome.

Angelalex242
2013-11-08, 01:21 PM
I don't agree with capped by Paladin Level. Aasimar Paladins with maxed charisma really want to get full use of their 20 Charisma...immediately.

~Corvus~
2013-11-08, 04:53 PM
Hey, this is really cool! A paladin i'd love to play. First of all, the eternal smiting capacity is fantastic. I disagree with Yakk here: it is worded in no uncertain terms. I understand it just fine.

Devotion: Yes, yes, yes!! And Weapon Spec chain from fighters, free. booya. One question, though: let's say that a Deity only has two domains (for some strange reason). What would you allow at 12th then for the third domain?

Purify: for 5 HP i can heal poisons, disease, and any ability damage, too? Heck yes, its like Restoration =D. Limited by the Cha bonus, I think this is just fine as is.

Hallowed Aura: Oh man, we get freely persisted buff spells? This gets better and better! To be honest, I think this is neither a problem nor a balance issue: at level 14 its right on time.

Touch of Life (Sp) 1/week True Rez is nice. No XP cost, no material cost, and hey, it's only 1/week but it's MUCH better than paying five arms and seven legs to cast it. Also much better than remove disease per week. lawl.

What are your thoughts on not making her immune to diseases or poisons if she can also cure them (or did I answer my own question =3)

Divine Grace: Kind of a mixed feeling here. Diehard is a feat usually chosen ~ 6th level or so. On the other hand, having 20+ extra HP is *really* nice. Maybe you could give Diehard as a level 2 class feature and have this be the (eventual) upgrade?

Spells: What's the dealio with 5th and 6th level spells? Are they only going to be domain-available spells? Are you considering the addition to any cleric/Druid spells (say, Regeneration, Holy Word, or perhaps Wind Walk) to the list?

Blackguard Purify: This just may be me, but I think it would be wicked cool if you could just apply any type of disease they want (www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#typesofDiseases) or even just flat Con damage. The way I see it, there's little point to spend time inflicting Con damage on something unless it's a Wizard or a Rogue that isn't very strong to begin with.

Keep up the good work :smallsmile:

Lanaya
2013-11-09, 01:51 AM
Yakk: I don't think anybody's had trouble understanding how smite evil works, if that changes I'll split it into two abilities. Extra uses per day would be nice, right now I'm feeling that smite isn't quite good enough, I'm torn as to whether I should boost daily uses or make each smite more powerful.

Divine grace isn't really supposed to be giving more than +10 to all saves, especially since pumping charisma is much more useful in this iteration of the paladin and you'll quite likely have enough for that. And yeah, +2 isn't enough to justify a 2 level dip, which was my plan all along. The paladin should be a mighty holy warrior, not a 2 level class which charisma-based characters dip to boost their saves.

I really like the special mount idea, right now I'm thinking of bringing in the dungeonscape divine spirit ACF, only a bit more interactive and with some utility abilities (commune would be an obvious one), so more of a divine spirit guide than just a nifty combat trick. And, going with the holy armaments idea, another option could be a scaling intelligent magic weapon, or perhaps some other kind of magic item.

I can't think of any poisons which deal HP damage, but if someone were to take HP damage from one then yes, purify would remove it. If they're already dead, though, purify won't fix them any more than the cure or restoration spell lines will. I've been considering putting in disease and poison immunity alongside purify, so you're flat-out immune and can spend lay on hands points to remove it from others.

Paladins can walk through a town blinding people, but gaze attacks can be switched off by default, so unless they subscribe to the Miko Miyazaki school of paladining they won't.

Touch of life is a weaker class feature than what tier 1 and 2 casters get, but that's fine with me. Plus you don't need to use the expensive material component and really, any party that lived to hit level 17 shouldn't have party members dying more than once a week. Still, turning it into a standard action is a cool idea.

~Corvus~: If a deity doesn't have a third domain I would probably suggest taking a third from the domains specific to your alignment. I don't think any such deities exist though.

At the moment, 5th and 6th level spells are domain spells only, yeah. I don't want the paladin to become too much of a spellcaster, and having your most powerful spells come from domains just feels better to me. A high level paladin worshipping a god of fire is going to be throwing around powerful fire spells like they're going out of style, whereas a high level cleric, with their expansive spell list, tends to just spam miracles and gates and such whether they serve the god of life, death, nature, law, chaos, whatever.

I was going to let the blackguard throw around the diseases and poisons of their choice, but I'm worried that there's some stupidly powerful disease in some obscure splatbook which they could use to instakill everything they find. Open-ended abilities are really fun, but hard to balance with a game as big as 3.5.

~Corvus~
2013-11-09, 03:22 AM
Yakk: I don't think anybody's had trouble understanding how smite evil works, if that changes I'll split it into two abilities. Extra uses per day would be nice, right now I'm feeling that smite isn't quite good enough, I'm torn as to whether I should boost daily uses or make each smite more powerful.

I stand by my evaluation: I think it's just fine as written. It's powerful, but not a solution to every situation. Against any non-evil creature (which a paladin can detect), it's still not useful. Keep it :smallsmile:


~Corvus~:At the moment, 5th and 6th level spells are domain spells only, yeah. I don't want the paladin to become too much of a spellcaster, and having your most powerful spells come from domains just feels better to me. A high level paladin worshipping a god of fire is going to be throwing around powerful fire spells like they're going out of style, whereas a high level cleric, with their expansive spell list, tends to just spam miracles and gates and such whether they serve the god of life, death, nature, law, chaos, whatever.

Still...Windwalk, for example, adds excellent mobility to the Paladin. Regeneration adds not a miracle, but a potential for a person to re-grow wounds. Do consider.


I was going to let the blackguard throw around the diseases and poisons of their choice, but I'm worried that there's some stupidly powerful disease in some obscure splatbook which they could use to instakill everything they find. Open-ended abilities are really fun, but hard to balance with a game as big as 3.5.

Ah, yes, the eternal abuse potential. Good point there.

toapat
2013-11-09, 09:43 AM
[b]*snip*

number correlate to sections

1: Its wordy is the point, and its not 1 ability

2: if you want to balance Divine grace against dipping, have it provide 1 less to each save for each additional non-paladin base class level.

3: if you take DS, dont do anything to it

4+8: there are a few that deal HP damage, but when it comes down to it, the only poison to worry about for players (and players will not be the ones throwing around the best fort saves by a long shot) is Black Lotus Extract, and the Only Diseases worth worrying about are the members of the Mummyrot family. The only other disease worth mentioning is the one that inflicts +2 str/-2 con each day.

7: one thing i did not explain is why having domains is bad: you are investing power (something that base paladin has in very little reserve already) into a classfeature which mandates the paladin into a specific set of play options (because even a non-optimal paladin wants Anyspell) based around 4 dieties (all of whome have spell domain). most other domains which are strong are barred within class because you feel Divine = Deific plaything.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-11-09, 11:09 AM
1: Its wordy is the point, and its not 1 ability
I do kind of agree on this point. You've really got two things going on with the Smite; even though it's clear, you probably should split them for simplicity's sake. Maybe move the constant damage back to 7 to fill in that dead level. +Cha to attack and damage probably ought to be per-encounter, a la factotum.

I kind of like the current take on Divine Grace... though I might bump it up to [paladin level.] Having good saves never really broke anything.


7: one thing i did not explain is why having domains is bad: you are investing power (something that base paladin has in very little reserve already) into a classfeature which mandates the paladin into a specific set of play options (because even a non-optimal paladin wants Anyspell) based around 4 dieties (all of whome have spell domain). most other domains which are strong are barred within class because you feel Divine = Deific plaything.
So... having choices is bad, because "even a non-optimal" player will only pick the best ones? :smallconfused: And I don't quite understand what you mean by the second part of your quote there.

toapat
2013-11-09, 11:51 AM
So... having choices is bad, because "even a non-optimal" player will only pick the best ones? :smallconfused: And I don't quite understand what you mean by the second part of your quote there.

Even in the PHB the paladin isnt presented as a divine servant along the lines of the Cleric. They are Hope given a class and a lifetime calling.

As far as domains go, you have two real choices and everything, even to those who have no real idea how to build a character, feel bad because you are not getting the big splashy spells, or the interesting/new stuff you want.

most domain abilities dont feel good at that, +4 to a turning check? +2 to a skill? or a skill you cant afford as a class skill?

Yakk
2013-11-09, 08:55 PM
I agree: leave domains to the Clerics as their niche.

Paladins should have Virtues, which can be like domains.

Another option I always like for spontaneous casters is (no extra time required) metamagic type abilities, or otherwise infuse spells with extra spell levels of power.

As examples:
Cast a spell using your Paladin level as your caster level (+1)
Cast a non-harmless ranged touch, touch, non-ranged area, or ranged non-area spell on someone you hit with a smite (+1, 1/round, do not need to roll the touch attack)
Cast a harmless ranged touch, touch, non-ranged area or ranged non-area spell on someone you lay on hands (+1, 1/round, do not need to roll the touch attack)

With both of these, you can burn 6th level slots to cast 4th level spells at full caster level (+1) and on the target you smited (+1).

Lanaya
2013-11-10, 03:25 PM
Alternate Class Feature - Sacred Relic
Rather than a special mount, some paladins may summon forth a holy weapon from the celestial realms.

Level: 4th
Replaces: If you take this class feature, you do not gain a special mount.

A paladinís sacred relic is an intelligent magic weapon, which can take the form of any weapon of her choice. At 4th level, the sacred relic has a +1 enhancement bonus and has two mental ability scores at 12 and one at 10. As the paladin increases in level, her sacred relic gains bonuses to its mental ability scores and various special abilities. Additionally, its bonus increases. Whenever this happens, you may choose whether to increase its enhancement bonus or add special abilities which add up to its new bonus. Once per week, a paladin may meditate for an hour in order to reshape her sacred relic, allowing her to transform it into a different weapon and reassign its enhancement bonus and special abilities. If her sacred relic has been destroyed, she may also reform it after performing this meditation.

A sacred relic is a paladinís companion, not a competitor. Its alignment is always the same as the paladinís, and it will never attempt to oppose her actions. If her alignment changes, the alignment of her sacred weapon will change appropriately. It may have different views and opinions, but its general outlook will always match the paladinís. In the hands of any creature except the paladin, her sacred relic counts as a simple masterwork weapon.

{table=head]Paladin Level|Bonus|Mental Ability Scores|Special
4th-5th|+1|12, 12, 10|Empathy, 60 ft vision and hearing, bless allies
6th-8th|+2|14, 14, 10|Telepathy
9th-11th|+4|16, 14, 12|Lesser globe of invulnerability
12th-14th |+6|18, 16, 12|Vicious smiting
15th-17th |+8|20, 18, 12|Holy Avenger
18th-20th |+10|20, 20, 14|Mighty smiting
[/table]

Empathy (Su)
The paladin and her sacred relic can communicate empathically as long as they are within 1 mile. Note that the sacred relic can hear sounds within 60 feet, so the paladin can speak to it while they are nearby if she wishes to communicate with it more precisely.

Bless Allies (Sp)
Three times per day, the sacred relic can use bless as a standard action, at a caster level equal to the paladinís class level.

Telepathy (Su)
The sacred relic can communicate telepathically with any creature within 60 feet.

Lesser Globe of Invulnerability (Sp)
Once per day, the sacred relic may use lesser globe of invulnerability as a spell-like ability, at a caster level equal to the paladin's class level.

Vicious Smiting (Ex)
Whenever the paladin expends a daily use of smite evil, all attacks she makes that round with her sacred relic deal 2d6 bonus damage against evil creatures.

Holy Avenger (Su)
The sacred relic bypasses damage reduction as though it were made from cold iron. As long the paladin wields it, she gains spell resistance equal to 5 + her level and all allies adjacent to her, and can use greater dispel magic at will as a spell-like ability (area dispel only).

Mighty Smiting (Ex)
Whenever the paladin expends a daily use of smite evil, any evil creature she damages with her sacred relic that round must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Ĺ paladinís class level + paladinís Charisma modifier) or be stunned for one round.

Blackguards
A blackguard may exchange their special mount for a profane relic. A profane relic functions in the same way as a sacred relic, with the following exceptions:

Bless Allies
A profane relic instead gains the Curse Enemies ability, allowing it to use bane three times per day at a caster level equal to the blackguard's level.

Vicious Smiting, Mighty Smiting
These abilities trigger when the blackguard uses smite good, and function against good creatures.

Holy Avenger
A profane relic's Holy Avenger ability is instead named Unholy Avenger, and it counts as being forged from adamantine instead of cold iron.

~Corvus~
2013-11-10, 04:49 PM
[suggestions]

Virtues are too close for Pathfinder, IMO.

So what you mean is the Heighten Spell feat for free? (seems reasonable)

Logic
2013-11-11, 10:12 AM
One thing I personally find needs addressing, is Weapon Specialization gained at Paladin level 4.
Because normally it is a Fighter only feat, if you are giving it to the Paladin, it should be obtainable only after the Fighter already has it. Even a 1 level delay is acceptable in my book.

~Corvus~
2013-11-11, 01:04 PM
One thing I personally find needs addressing, is Weapon Specialization gained at Paladin level 4.
Because normally it is a Fighter only feat, if you are giving it to the Paladin, it should be obtainable only after the Fighter already has it. Even a 1 level delay is acceptable in my book.

Disagree. Fighters are terrible classes as published, and allowing a terrible class' rules to rule this class' features is just silly.

toapat
2013-11-11, 01:13 PM
Disagree. Fighters are terrible classes as published, and allowing a terrible class' rules to rule this class' features is just silly.

incorrect: Fighter is a terrible class because fighter was an Open Ended class. Also they lack anything really worth picking up after level 6 but that doesnt matter in this point.

their impact on the design philosophy involved with combat feats is what made them bad, because anything designed for combat was available to them, causing the dispersion of techniques for the mundanes across many feats instead of small batches of feats.

Lanaya
2013-11-11, 02:01 PM
One thing I personally find needs addressing, is Weapon Specialization gained at Paladin level 4.
Because normally it is a Fighter only feat, if you are giving it to the Paladin, it should be obtainable only after the Fighter already has it. Even a 1 level delay is acceptable in my book.

How about I just give them +2 damage when using their favoured weapon at level 4? That's still a pretty small boost, but at least it's no longer treading on the fighter's toes.

Really, weapon specialisation is awful, and the fact that it's one of the fighter's few unique tricks says a lot about how terrible the fighter is (as a full class as opposed to a dip). Any martial class that's genuinely useful beyond level 6 or so is already going to overshadow the fighter in every regard, whether they have a few really weak fighter-exclusive feats or not. If anything, I might give the paladin access to those feats before the fighter gets them, because getting a feat at level 4 which gives +2 damage with one weapon is pathetic, and getting another +2 damage at level 12 is just embarrassing.

~Corvus~
2013-11-11, 02:18 PM
How about I just give them +2 damage when using their favoured weapon at level 4? That's still a pretty small boost, but at least it's no longer treading on the fighter's toes.

That sounds really good. Effectively WS, but not the feat in name.

Yakk
2013-11-11, 02:20 PM
Virtues are too close for Pathfinder, IMO.
Passions then. Invert the Jedi thing.

So what you mean is the Heighten Spell feat for free? (seems reasonable)
Not the spell level, but I'm saying "for 1 metamagic level, your caster level becomes your paladin level, instead of half your paladin level". Basically ways to turbo-charge your existing paladin spells,

The core idea was burning extra spell levels to being able to break the action economy (cast self buffs while attacking, or attack spells when you smite someone). One central problem of the hybrid is that you only have one set of actions: if you are half a spellcaster and half a melee type, you can only cast a spell or swing your sword on a given turn, so you are half as effective regardless of what you do.

If you can do both on the same round, you can reduce that problem somewhat.

Looking over the paladin spell list, there are a few categories of spell
1) Weapon buffs. Being able to cast one of these as part of a smite attack would be flavorful.
2) Healing and cleansing effects (restoration, poison, remove curse/blindness/etc). Doing this when you lay on hands would be flavorful.
3) Area/group buffs and protection (circle of protection, prayer)
4) Single target buffs (Virtue, Bless, Death Ward)
5) ... other

(2) and (4) would work well in combo with lay on hands.

(1) and (3) would work well in combo with smite. As in, smite a foe, pop up a circle of protection against evil.

Logic
2013-11-11, 05:24 PM
I know how poor the Fighter and Paladin are as written. They are still my favorite two classes. Lackluster and/or marginally uninteresting but a great place to start if you want a blank slate (for the Fighter at least.)

My main problem (and I think few will disagree) with the fighter is that when 3rd edition invented feats, they made the Fighter's only class features this new interesting tack-on ability! But it seems they needed to tack them on to everyone else, so the fighter got MORE! And then the feat chains don't do that much anyway.

Xerlith
2013-11-12, 04:20 AM
Yes, Logic. This is the base problem with the Fighter class. Empty chassis with nothing to fill it.

As for the class... This is probably a high tier 3. Seems powerful on paper, I'm curious how it fares in actual play.

toapat
2013-11-13, 03:20 PM
Yes, Logic. This is the base problem with the Fighter class. Empty chassis with nothing to fill it.

As for the class... This is probably a high tier 3. Seems powerful on paper, I'm curious how it fares in actual play.

again, Fighter isnt bad in and of itself. its bad because it was a base class at the beginning of third that set the idea of how combat feats would be balanced.

as far as class balance? This is not in any aspect a stronger class then base paladin in any area where paladin was weak beyond the dumping of wisdom.

Lanaya
2013-11-13, 05:08 PM
as far as class balance? This is not in any aspect a stronger class then base paladin in any area where paladin was weak beyond the dumping of wisdom.

Hang on, I feel a Monty Python reference coming on...

"But apart from better base saves, spell progression, class skills, skill points, proficiencies, earlier aura of courage, passive damage bonuses, free feats, expanded spell list, domain powers, twice as many lay on hands points, earlier and stronger special mount, better disease curing plus poison curing thrown in, free auras, immunity to death effects, a gaze attack, super Diehard, free true resurrections, miracle once per day and a fairly decent capstone ability, what did the Romans ever do for us?"

toapat
2013-11-13, 06:19 PM
"But apart from better base saves, spell progression, class skills, skill points, proficiencies, earlier aura of courage, passive damage bonuses, free feats, expanded spell list, domain powers, twice as many lay on hands points, earlier and stronger special mount, better disease curing plus poison curing thrown in, free auras, immunity to death effects, a gaze attack, super Diehard, free true resurrections, miracle once per day and a fairly decent capstone ability, what did the Romans ever do for us?"

Saves: A small nudge with no real virticallity. Paladins already had the best saves anyway.
Spell Progression: Doesnt matter because you didnt give battle blessing to make the spells worth anything while removing turn undead. you also did not expand the list beyond the 20 some options it already is.
Proficiencies: Mean nothing except on monks, because monk proficiencies are required for flurry of misses to be usable.
Domains: Blow.
Class Skills and Skillpoints: Go ask Rogue why its crying in the corner of T4
Aura of Courage: Woo, Phantasmal Killer cant eat me. id rather have the aura from CG paladin which makes me immune to Illusions and Phantasmal Killer.
Free Feats: That only offset what you removed from Smite Evil AND will NEVER be granted to a paladin's inherently prefered weapon.
Lay on Hands: and the first DS spirit also does that, and its the one that isnt cared for particularly
Mount: Why when Truenamer gets Gate at Will is it only T4 when operational. also Its still a CR1 at base with no advancement potential at all.
Condition Negation: Is it A disease other then mummy rot? Heal. Is it a Poison other then Black Lotus Extract? its not even likely going to tick once.
Miracle, Capstone, and True Resurection: Too little, too late, and your Capstone doesnt even give the paladin HP when they get it, they have to take epic levels in order to do anything.
"Uber"diehard: diehard matters for no more then 5 levels. The effect doesnt matter after that because it doesnt provide a boost in HP worth mentioning.