Thought Experiment: 3.5 Wizard buys Schools with Feats

[TheDarkSaint]

This is an idea that came to me recently on balancing out wizard and cleric.

What if you started with just one school of magic at level one and to unlock another school of magic or domain, you'd need to use a feat?

What are the long term ramifications of this?

In my minds eye, I see wizards either choosing to become specialists in which they could meta-magic this spells, or becoming generalists.

Would this have any major impact on scaling back the versatility of a tier 1 class?

[BWR]

Roughly:
Everyone would buy Transmutation and Conjuration and we'd have mostly the same problem. Transform into a creature that can do what you want or summon a creature that can do what you want.

[Rizban]

I think it's a very interesting concept. Unfortunately, what BWR said is valid. The only viable way to bring down the power levels full casters is to seriously pare their spell lists. Just limiting access to the list has the potential to leave casual players screwed over while optimizers just pick the best stuff like they already do anyway.

[Vadskye]

This limits caster customization dramatically, and doesn't work unless you use a rigorously rebalanced school system.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

A few problem emerge.

As mentioned, spell schools are not created equal. Hence why we have that awkward list of "how many schools you must ban to specialize in this type of magic," and even then we get some schools that are strictly more versatile or more powerful.

Secondly, this effectively creates a feat tax, which is a classic example of poor design. Since having access to X new spells (where X is up to maybe a hundred or more, depending on the school and splatbooks in question) is far more powerful than literally any existing feat that a Wizard might be interested in, you've basically given Wizards a non-choice in their feat selection.

If you want to do something like this, I'd suggest the following:

Firstly, rebalance, remove, or add spells until all schools of magic are roughly balanced (Yes, it's a huge task. But it's a necessary first step).

Then, have a Wizard choose a specialty school (or two) at first level. At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter (or whatever rate you choose to set) they gain access to a new school of magic...with a twist. Their maximum spell level for spells of subsequent schools is equal to the spells they'd cast if the were a wizard of a level equal to (their wizard caster level - the level at which the accessed the school). So a 12th level Wizard might look something like this:

Evocation and Conjuration -- 0th-6th level spells, caster level 12th.
Transmutation -- 0th-4th level spells, caster level 12th. (as an 8th level Wizard for maximum spell level)
Illusion -- 0th-2nd level spells, caster level 12th. (as an 4th level Wizard for maximum spell level)
Enchantment -- 0th level spells, caster level 12th. (as an 1st level Wizard for maximum spell level)

Does that make sense?

It doesn't have a mandatory feat tax, it allows customization short of outright bans on schools (as some lower level spells can be a lot of fun), and, perhaps most importantly, it nerfs Wizards while still allowing them to feel like masters of magic. Just not ALL magic ALL the time. :smallbiggrin:

[Rebonack]

The inherent issue with this idea has already been pointed out.

If you want balanced casters by far the best solution is to flat out ban all the Core full-casters and use the actually decently balanced specialist casters instead. The Warmage, the Beguiler, the Dread Necromancer, and even Saph's Teleporter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168948) are all nice.

Factotum works really well for the concept of a generalist wizardish person. Smiting the Druid's spell list down to Summon Nature's Ally 1-9 results in a solid pet class.

[NichG]

I would probably just say instead restrict them to one or two schools, period, no way around it. While its true that some schools are going to be better than others with this approach, it does serve to at least increase the degree of op-fu needed to fully exploit the power of the class.

That is to say, while you can do everything with Conjuration, it requires a lot of messing around with specific summoned creatures in order to 'fill in' the spell gaps, which is knowledge that fewer players will simply have at hand ready to go. While you can do everything with Transmutation eventually via Shapechange shenanigans, it comes in at much higher level than before and again requires more player knowledge to fully exploit.

What I'd focus on as the 'second step' after limiting to one school would be to remove omnispells like Shadow Conjuration, Limited Wish, and the like, and work to limit spells that 'effectively' allow you to get access to other spells such as Shapechange, Planar Ally, and Gate.

[Lord of Shadows]

So a 12th level Wizard might look something like this:

Evocation and Conjuration -- 0th-6th level spells, caster level 12th.
Transmutation -- 0th-4th level spells, caster level 12th. (as an 8th level Wizard for maximum spell level)
Illusion -- 0th-2nd level spells, caster level 12th. (as an 4th level Wizard for maximum spell level)
Enchantment -- 0th level spells, caster level 12th. (as an 1st level Wizard for maximum spell level)

Does that make sense?

It doesn't have a mandatory feat tax, it allows customization short of outright bans on schools (as some lower level spells can be a lot of fun), and, perhaps most importantly, it nerfs Wizards while still allowing them to feel like masters of magic. Just not ALL magic ALL the time.
Taking this out to its logical progression, 8th level spells come online at 16th level, and 9th level spells at 20th level?

When would this caster gain access to the odd level spells: 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th? Do they jump two spell levels every four caster levels, or would they get the odd numbered ones at 2nd, 6th, 10th, and 14th? What about 18th?

Interesting idea... just trying to wrap my head around it.
.

[XionUnborn01]

Taking this out to its logical progression, 8th level spells come online at 16th level, and 9th level spells at 20th level?

When would this caster gain access to the odd level spells: 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th? Do they jump two spell levels every four caster levels, or would they get the odd numbered ones at 2nd, 6th, 10th, and 14th? What about 18th?

Interesting idea... just trying to wrap my head around it.
.


He's saying that at 20th level, the wizard would access
Evocation and Conjuration as a 20th level wizard
Transmutation as a 16th level
Illusion as a 12th level
Enchantment as an 8th level

and so on. Think of it like the druid companion. The early schools get the benefit of more goodies like a wolf for the druid, and the later ones are treated as you were a wizard of a lower level, like a t-rex for the druid.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

He's saying that at 20th level, the wizard would access
Evocation and Conjuration as a 20th level wizard
Transmutation as a 16th level
Illusion as a 12th level
Enchantment as an 8th level

and so on. Think of it like the druid companion. The early schools get the benefit of more goodies like a wolf for the druid, and the later ones are treated as you were a wizard of a lower level, like a t-rex for the druid.

+1 for getting it dead on. The only catch is that under my suggested system you do use your full caster level. A 9th level Wizard who selected Evocation as his level 4 school can learn Evocation spells of up to 3rd level (4,5,6,7,8,9 = effective caster level 6), but casts them at caster level 9.