Homebrew Base Class for 3.5e

[CAHaugen]

Greetings! I am new to this board. I've been using it to skim answers while looking for 3.5e answers and I have found the users on this site to be very informative and helpful, so I decided to make an account. :smallsmile:

So, here's my question. I've been playing 3e / 3.5e for years now. Started off with my friend teaching me 1e from his dad's old books, then he taught me 2e-3e and I've been playing 3.5e since about 2009.

While playing 3.5e, I've always created my own things. Monsters, NPCs, weapons, and classes; Both Base and Prestige. In my early stages I was of course "GAIN ALL THE FEATS! -broomstick-", but I've eventually developed a style; "Does it actually pertain to your Class's style; If you can function without it, you don't need it.". This, of course, allows players to build their own custom characters when Bonus Feats come up, rather than being forced into a corner with Feats they may or may not actually like to use (Personally I don't like Cleave, for instance; Very rarely do I find myself dealing a final blow, or enough damage to make Cleave worth while; Meaning Great Cleave is just wasted space for me).

Anywhootianny, here's my overall question;

Just how many Feats is considered "normal" when creating a Base Class (1st - 20th Level)?

I've been working on a few Prestige Classes, and those are simple enough; 1 Feat a Level unless you're really making a powerful Prestige Class. But I don't have nearly enough experience with a Base Class to know what to do.

My general character design is that I wanted to mix Sneak Attack and Skirmish (The adopted version applying to Melee weapons, not just Ranged). I wanted to make sort of an assassin-like guy who doesn't relay on hiding in shadows and using poisons or spells; Rather an assassin who is swift and can jump in, rapidly rip your side to string cheese, and flee. All in all, I have 44 Feats from 1st to 20th Level. When you consider the "Natural Feats" (Not sure what else to call them) that you get at 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, & 18th Level it comes out to 51 Feats.

Of this, five are Sneak Attack, four are Skirmish, one is Improved Skirmish, two or three are overlapping movement-based Feats Fast Movement, and the like, and some Skill-boosting Feats. I was working on cutting out the extra now that the skeleton and muscle of the Class was made, but I wasn't sure just how much to cut out.

When I consider Sneak Attack, for example, yes I am counting this Feat
a total of five times because each time it does more and more damage, however being stated it is not as though it is something NEW. I also have about 5 different Feint Feats that allow you to progressively use Feint at a stronger basis.

Truth be told, the entire Class focuses around those four aspects; Skill-booster, Sneak Attack, Skirmish, and Feint.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

It seems to me that you're confusing feats with class features. Feats don't usually make good class features: the Fighter is the best example of why this is.

As for the number of class features: it's largely dependent on the strength an complexity of those features. For a class without a complex subsystem (I.e. One without spell casting, martial maneuvers, etc) I like to find a balance between 10-15 unique abilities of varying power, with potential improvements to those abilities. Exceptions to this abound.

Of course, this is largely a useless metric. The real test is whether or not the class feels sparse or bloated, and whether or not each of the abilities you've chosen are there for a good reason (and whether or not they're fun, well-balanced abilities).

In short, the only "rule" I'd suggest is this: find a way to give some benefit (however small) at every level, and make sure you're spaced out fun and potent abilities to every 3-4 levels at a minimum. Don't let people get bored with your class: something worth getting and looking forward to should always be around the corner.

[CAHaugen]

Thanks, that was really helpful. The Class is called "Bandersnatch". There is an old poem that depicts a creature who reaches out and rapidly strikes at the head of a banker until his neck snaps and he dies. Just look up Bandersnatch on Wikipedia and you can learn more. I felt it was an appropriate name, as this character is meant to reach out using speed and rapid striking to kill foes.

I have him set upon the Rogue table, however for sake of balancing and editing the Class Features and potential Feats I had to knock the BAB up by +1 (He gets +1 at 1st, not 2nd. So by Level 19th he has 15/10/5 instead of waiting until 20th Level. So no real noticeable difference).

When I was working on him I had him built with only one Class Feature per Level, which I was absolutely happy with. The problem was that although the Class worked in terms of what it was meant to do, the whole idea felt restricted as I didn't have the expansion and freedom of movement I needed; It's one thing to build it damage-wise, but another to build it flexible-wise.

So I spent days skimming through the NBoF (Netbook of Feats; 1,000+ Feats; 1/2 SRD, 1/2 Homebrew) to find the best. Ended up finding over 100 potential Feats to use as Class Features, which I narrowed down to some 54, then again down to 27. From those I further narrowed down to like 24, which is how I cam to the 44 Class Features (20 Level Features + 24 Added Features).

It still feels stocky and too bulky, even though at least half are Class Features that overlap and stack, such as Sneak Attack and Skirmish. I keep trying to justify it in my mind with "Well the SRD: Monk get's 31!" and "Well they overlap, so it's okay." but I'm pretty sure that's just me being stubborn...:annoyed:

[Amnoriath]

Greetings! I am new to this board. I've been using it to skim answers while looking for 3.5e answers and I have found the users on this site to be very informative and helpful, so I decided to make an account. :smallsmile:

So, here's my question. I've been playing 3e / 3.5e for years now. Started off with my friend teaching me 1e from his dad's old books, then he taught me 2e-3e and I've been playing 3.5e since about 2009.

While playing 3.5e, I've always created my own things. Monsters, NPCs, weapons, and classes; Both Base and Prestige. In my early stages I was of course "GAIN ALL THE FEATS! -broomstick-", but I've eventually developed a style; "Does it actually pertain to your Class's style; If you can function without it, you don't need it.". This, of course, allows players to build their own custom characters when Bonus Feats come up, rather than being forced into a corner with Feats they may or may not actually like to use (Personally I don't like Cleave, for instance; Very rarely do I find myself dealing a final blow, or enough damage to make Cleave worth while; Meaning Great Cleave is just wasted space for me).

Anywhootianny, here's my overall question;

Just how many Feats is considered "normal" when creating a Base Class (1st - 20th Level)?

I've been working on a few Prestige Classes, and those are simple enough; 1 Feat a Level unless you're really making a powerful Prestige Class. But I don't have nearly enough experience with a Base Class to know what to do.

My general character design is that I wanted to mix Sneak Attack and Skirmish (The adopted version applying to Melee weapons, not just Ranged). I wanted to make sort of an assassin-like guy who doesn't relay on hiding in shadows and using poisons or spells; Rather an assassin who is swift and can jump in, rapidly rip your side to string cheese, and flee. All in all, I have 44 Feats from 1st to 20th Level. When you consider the "Natural Feats" (Not sure what else to call them) that you get at 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, & 18th Level it comes out to 51 Feats.


As Djinn in Tonic said having a lot of bonus feats doesn't necessarily do you much good. It really is annoying because of actually having to qualify for them not only with other feats but skills and attributes is what really stretches the limit of a what a character can get. Also most feats do one thing or give a flat bonus. In general class mechanics is what you need to make a good character. In general though 4 bonus feats often fit in very nicely with most builds.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Thanks, that was really helpful. The Class is called "Bandersnatch". There is an old poem that depicts a creature who reaches out and rapidly strikes at the head of a banker until his neck snaps and he dies. Just look up Bandersnatch on Wikipedia and you can learn more. I felt it was an appropriate name, as this character is meant to reach out using speed and rapid striking to kill foes.

I'm quite familiar with the Bandersnatch. :smallbiggrin:


I have him set upon the Rogue table, however for sake of balancing and editing the Class Features and potential Feats I had to knock the BAB up by +1 (He gets +1 at 1st, not 2nd. So by Level 19th he has 15/10/5 instead of waiting until 20th Level. So no real noticeable difference).

I understand the desire to do something like this, but here's a handy tip for homebrewers everywhere who want to mess with the core structure of the class framework (BaB, save progressions, hit dice mechanics, skill points, etc): don't.

To elaborate: these systems are the core mechanics of the game, and are designed to work a certain way. Unless you have an exceedingly good reason to do so (and that reason is required to make your concept work), find another solution.

Let's look at two examples: the Warhulk prestige class and your class here.

The Warhulk gains +0 Base Attack Bonus over the course of 10 levels. Uniquely, it also gives +2 Strength at every level. The concept is of a huge juggernaut of a character who punishes people with brute strength.

This is an acceptable place to break the rules, and an acceptable way to do it. By giving +0 BaB, the huge bonuses from Strength are offset. Additionally, they're offset in a way that fits the class: while it still gets a +10 bonus to physical melee attacks, it's ability to land touch attacks, hit at range, or make multiple attacks suffers. By breaking this standard rule you actually reinforce the idea of a powerful character who lands a few truly staggering blows rather than a barrage of lighter, more accurate ones.

The Bandersnatch gains an additional +1 BaB over 20 levels, pushing it slightly outside the standard range. With only a 5% difference on a d20, players will be hard pressed to actually feel the difference in a tangible way. It doesn't really reinforce the concept of the class, so breaking a core rule (BaB at 1/2, 3/4, or 1) is not a good approach. If you must give them that extra +1 for some reason, you'd be better off tying it to a class feature (+1 to attack rolls) than to the base mechanic. I'd still recommend against having it at all though, unless you have a truly compelling reason.


So I spent days skimming through the NBoF (Netbook of Feats; 1,000+ Feats; 1/2 SRD, 1/2 Homebrew) to find the best. Ended up finding over 100 potential Feats to use as Class Features, which I narrowed down to some 54, then again down to 27. From those I further narrowed down to like 24, which is how I cam to the 44 Class Features (20 Level Features + 24 Added Features).

This worries me. Feats are not substitutes for class features, and to many feats makes a class bloated, clunky, and complicated (as you have so many moving parts to remember).

Could I ask you to post the class? It would be much easier to analyze if I can see the actual class itself.

[Just to Browse]

To show what Djinn is going for, using this once per encounter (http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/moment-alacrity--3631/) is an appropriate ability at level 11, but is totally inaccessible with feats.

[Rizban]

Speaking from experience, Netbook of Feats is not a good source. The power levels are all over the place in a bad way, and some portions of it are simply unworkable in actual play.

It's not a bad thing to look over when you're starting to homebrew some things yourself, and it's actually got some good work put into compiling and editing it. I would suggest, however, that you do your own thing rather than just copy/pasting what someone else has done into your own work.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

To show what Djinn is going for, using this once per encounter (http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/moment-alacrity--3631/) is an appropriate ability at level 11, but is totally inaccessible with feats.

This is sort of what I was going for, but not precisely helpful.

The reason it's a problem is because feats are a subsystem in D&D meant to do a particular thing: grant minor bonuses and tricks to your character, at the rate of 1 every 3 levels.

Class features, on the other hand, are meant to comprise the bulk of what your character is capable of doing.

Now imagine if everything you do can be summed up as "minor bonuses and tricks." See the issue? There's no real meat to your class: it's just an amalgamation of tiny tricks.