Warlock Fix idea, Need advice

[Perpetr8r]

Ok I had a few ideas for a fix for the Warlock. I need to see if they are good ideas.

Give the Warlock Invocations known as the Swordsage's Maneuvers known. Now for the shapes and essences they are learned and known the same as the Swordsage's Stances known.

Imbue Item moved to 5th level but leave it unchanged.

Make the Warlock capable of retraining his invocations at each level he learns a new rank of invocations up to his unaltered CHA modifier (ability score enhancements gained through levels are not counted as altered)

What do you guys think?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think just granting the 20-some maneuvers via Swordsage should be enough on that front, although more retraining is nice. You're still going to have trouble with damage, though, at least without the traditional eldrich glaive/claws and/or hellfire warlock routes. Perhaps add the ability to full attack with your blast?

[Perpetr8r]

That is not a bad idea actually. But what do you think of the moving the imbue item down to 5 where I feel it becomes at least useful when at 12 it feels like it comes to little to late.

[ngilop]

I feel that a simple Warlock fix is 2 fold.

1) you need to give it a sperate invocation progression


by that I mean he should get invocations as usual (knowing up to 12) but also give him a seperate progression that srats from level 3 onwards and give him maybe 7 or 8 blast shape/essence invocations

SO he gets to spend those 12 on any invocations he wants to and has a small selection of invocation that are specificlly for improving and expanding upon his eldritch blast.

2) Eldritch blast needs its damage bumped up, follow sneak attack so its 1D6 every off level up to 10d6 at 19th and at some point allow them to fire off more than one as a standard action

i guess if you wanna turn it into a swors sage who also has invocations that would be cool too. not something I would like but it would make them better thna standard Warlock.

[Perpetr8r]

Who is talking about making the Warlock a swordsage?

I said the swordsage progression as in 25 invocations at level 20; 6 stances at level 20. Giving them a large progression following at path that is easy to point too does not make it the swordsage.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That is not a bad idea actually. But what do you think of the moving the imbue item down to 5 where I feel it becomes at least useful when at 12 it feels like it comes to little to late.
It's not a bad touch.

[nonsi]

Take a look at my Warlock Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14528524).
It's got everything a warlock will ever need.

Add to that some of the feats proposed for my DFA Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15976126) (bottom-most spoiler) and you're golden.

[ngilop]

Who is talking about making the Warlock a swordsage?

I said the swordsage progression as in 25 invocations at level 20; 6 stances at level 20. Giving them a large progression following at path that is easy to point too does not make it the swordsage.

Oh.. my bad I mis understood. why call it swordsage progression whne all you are doing is giving more Invocations.. thats what confused me instead of just saying " give the warlock more invocations over his 20 levels) you said " give it sword sage progression and stances" to me that means you are going to give it swordsage progression and stances, NOT that you are increasing the number of invocations the warlock may know.

SO bascially you are doing teh exact same thing I suggested with differing progressions for blast/essence invocations and other invocations. LOL

You are still going to have to up teh warlocks damage output though

5th level for Imbue might be a bit too early, prob 8th or 9th would be better I think still early but not so early that you are getting free nice things.

[Amnoriath]

Who is talking about making the Warlock a swordsage?

I said the swordsage progression as in 25 invocations at level 20; 6 stances at level 20. Giving them a large progression following at path that is easy to point too does not make it the swordsage.

Well, if you are giving them stances you are making them a martial initiator except you would need to specify what disciplines they can choose from and justify not giving them boosts or strikes.
Really 25 invocations are quite a lot considering the fact they have no limit or cooldown/retrieval mechanisms and doesn't really fix the problems Warlocks have. You first need to find a way to make sense of the flavor in its mechanics. Many people made bloodline options that give various abilities when you level in the class. You also need to find a way to give it a bit of strategy that it can offer the group as a whole and can use through out its career to accomodate its feats that it could choose from. As of now it has a couple good low-level play debuff's(do not scale well), one high damage blast shape, maybe two nasty mid-high level field controls, and high level eclectic crafting which the artificer beat it 12 levels ago.

[Perpetr8r]

Ok to be clear no maneuvers will be added
i am using the progressions listed under Maneuvers known and Stances known for the Warlock's invocations known and Shape/Essence Known

So at lvl 20 he would have 25 invocations and 6 Shape/essences

I might also bring over the Readied list so he can select which ones to use each day or treat them like the erudites upd run down.

As for the Imbue item that is why I want it earlier because Artificer can do it earlier and better through the run so either make it earlier or drop it seems to be the idea.

Also granting it access to the DFA's invocations as well maybe even including its breath invocations to be treated as Shape/essences.

[lunar2]

warlock is actually pretty easy to fix. change eldritch blast to 1d6/level, and change invocations known to 1/level. so at level 20 it's doing 20d6 damage with its eldritch blast and it knows 20 invocations. that's all that needs to be changed.

[Perpetr8r]

True enough but 20d6 as an at will power might make people nervous.

[Grod_The_Giant]

True enough but 20d6 as an at will power might make people nervous.
Point out that it's an average of 70 damage. At level 20.

[Perpetr8r]

I suppose that is true. Max its 120 damage a round but it never runs out unlike spell slots.

Hmm would you allow a Warlock to use DFA invocations and Breath Effects as Essenses or Shapes on their EB?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sure, why not?

[ngilop]

I made a few Invocation using classes in my campaign world, and one thing I did with them was allow Warlocsk to learn the other invocations but not vice versa ( so a Warlock COULD learn a Primal's invocations but not the other way around) and excepting the ultimate invocations ( so a Warlock could not get teh highest tier of invocations from the other classes but they could get least and lesser )

SO I see nothing wrong with letting a warlock nab DFA invocations.. though im not too sure that the breath effectsa are much different than the blast shape/essencesces teh warlock has already.. or I could be getting MY warlock confused with the actual one LOL)

[Just to Browse]

That's a good fix. Damage still sucks, but it's a tier 3 BFC guy now.

[Amnoriath]

Ok to be clear no maneuvers will be added
i am using the progressions listed under Maneuvers known and Stances known for the Warlock's invocations known and Shape/Essence Known

So at lvl 20 he would have 25 invocations and 6 Shape/essences

I might also bring over the Readied list so he can select which ones to use each day or treat them like the erudites upd run down.

As for the Imbue item that is why I want it earlier because Artificer can do it earlier and better through the run so either make it earlier or drop it seems to be the idea.

Also granting it access to the DFA's invocations as well maybe even including its breath invocations to be treated as Shape/essences.

Why don't you give them Vestiges or Soulmelds while you are at it? I know I am being sardonic here but you really aren't fixing the overall problem. Invocations don't scale unless they reference a spell that would. Almost all essences can be easily thwarted by decent saves, resistances, or fairly easy immunities. Only a couple of shapes are actually worth taking. Then the rest of the invocations either get quickly relegated to something outside of combat and/or stand alone too much for a Warlock to bother with making it better at doing it.

[Perpetr8r]

Not a bad idea but I don't get the incarnum mechanics at all. The Binder is also something kinda new to me so I might have to do some reading but can someone give me an idiots rundown?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Not a bad idea but I don't get the incarnum mechanics at all. The Binder is also something kinda new to me so I might have to do some reading but can someone give me an idiots rundown?
Incarnum: You create sort of semi-real magic items, and have a reservoir of power you can freely allocate between the items. You can make a limited number more "real," so they get more powerful but take up the actual magic item slot.

Binding: You make pacts with barely-existent beings called vestiges. Each vestige gives you a small set of different abilities, sort of like taking a few levels in a class. Some vestiges have requirements you have to meet before you can form a pact with them. At higher levels, you can bind multiple vestiges simultaneously.

But I wouldn't worry too much about it-- Warlocks really suffer from lack of damage more than anything else. Make invocation DCs scale with Warlock level, grant enough invocations known to have some variety, and you'll be fine.

[Perpetr8r]

So the Warlokc and the DFA invocations are all that exist?

[ngilop]

Yes, officially warlock and DFA are the only invocation using classes in D&D.

I made a few, Primal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264875) and Samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278499)

and its simple enough to follow the (Semi) formula for Invocations to create new ones.

[Amnoriath]

Not a bad idea but I don't get the incarnum mechanics at all. The Binder is also something kinda new to me so I might have to do some reading but can someone give me an idiots rundown?

I really wasn't being serious. The point is giving them a whole bunch of other stuff in which that stuff isn't made for Warlocks(ie what are the breath effect's grade of invocation?) doesn't really fix the Warlock. It really just ends up annoying the other classes they steal from. Lets give an example of something good a Warlock can do. The Eldritch Glaive is an amazing attack to drain in a bunch of Power Attack outside of Ubercharging. There is a couple problem's that the Warlock doesn't really overcome well. One, its action is a full-round action so even if the DM houserule's it as a full-attack it means you are left with a morningstar any time you are left with a standard action, it gets worse if they don't because it means pounce can't even save you. The Warlock has no means to increase actions outside of items. Two, you only have d6 hit die with no means to make yourself hardier outside of items. I can sight some others and I am not saying you need to make the Warlock a melee powerhouse. All I am doing is pointing out the dilemma a Warlock has with optimizing its invocations, even with its good ones on top of what I pointed out before with how they almost need to change their character depending on the level of the campaign.

[Perpetr8r]

So you're saying the problem is not how many invocations its that most are just not useful. Since he can only cast them as Standard actions and the like correct?

[Amnoriath]

So you're saying the problem is not how many invocations its that most are just not useful. Since he can only cast them as Standard actions and the like correct?

I wouldn't say not useful, just very little ways in actually making them better at whatever invocation/s through out the levels. Also I wouldn't standard action uses are the issue, it is an issue with the glaive as it only can be used in a full-round action. As Grod said they don't scale, but even worse some of the strategies offered in the lower grades of invocations don't really even get better as you ascend levels. As such you end up trying optimize penalties and save DC's one grade(baleful utterance..etc), the next you try to find some way to buff minions or yourself(dead walk, eldritch glaive), the next you are trying to widen crowd control effects(chilling tentacles, nightmares made real), and finally you are trying to stick in a few crafting feats just so you can maybe use a couple invocations better. Since they don't have any bonus feats or very little ways to buff invocations they don't end up taking any certain strategy with any seriousness because it may very well not be optimal or even applicable anymore.

[Amnoriath]

Point out that it's an average of 70 damage. At level 20.

With no feats or items, it is easy to get quicken. Also Fell Flight can give flyby attack if you find a way to change your body. So, on average it is actually 210.

[Grod_The_Giant]

With no feats or items, it is easy to get quicken. Also Fell Flight can give flyby attack if you find a way to change your body. So, on average it is actually 210.
How are you quickening the blast? It counts as an SLA with a level of 1/2 your warlock level. Quicken SLA can only be used on SLAs of 1/2 your CL -4, so Eldrich Blast will never qualify. Also, what does flyby attack have to do with anything?

[Zaydos]

How are you quickening the blast? It counts as an SLA with a level of 1/2 your warlock level. Quicken SLA can only be used on SLAs of 1/2 your CL -4, so Eldrich Blast will never qualify. Also, what does flyby attack have to do with anything?

Errata made it a 1st level SLA unless modified with Eldritch Essences or Blast Shapes (though that has always left me wondering how Quicken SLA [Eldritch Blast] and those worked together). As for the other I am as confused as you are. How does Flyby Attack give you extra attacks?

Also Quicken SLA is only 3/day and being able to deal 140 damage 3/day isn't much to write home about.

[Amnoriath]

How are you quickening the blast? It counts as an SLA with a level of 1/2 your warlock level. Quicken SLA can only be used on SLAs of 1/2 your CL -4, so Eldrich Blast will never qualify. Also, what does flyby attack have to do with anything?

As Zaydos has said, well I was remembering Pathfinder Flyby Attack which allows another standard action during the move, but they are different. Sorry However 3.5 still has a better Warlock though than their 3rd party material so its still possible.