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Halfling_Defender
2007-01-12, 10:44 AM
I'm very interested in knowing how a weapon like this would translate into the d20 system. It seems like a great exotic weapon for a brut-force monk or a Barbarian.

General description: it's a Japanese sword said to have been created in the 18th century to be used against calvary, able to take out horse and rider in one swipe. The blade is about 2 yards in length, thin like a Katana, yet had a wide face (9-12"). The hilt is almost non-exsistant and it has a 15 - 18" long handle. I've seen it in many Anime, Inuyasha, Rurouni Kenshin, Naruto, etc.. and have wanted to make a character that is proficient with it.

any ideas?

ampcptlogic
2007-01-12, 10:51 AM
I did some wiki-research. It appears the zanbato never existed. There's some possibility that it's based on a much older Chinese weapon, the zhan ma dao, if that ever existed. The closest real analogs would appear to be the German zweihander or the Japanese nodachi or odachi. All in all, it's a greatsword.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanbat%C5%8D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhanmadao
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bih%C3%A4nder

Deus Mortus
2007-01-12, 10:54 AM
Indeed the way katana's were forged, a good forged blade of those proportions wouldn't be wieldable due to metal folding...

However if you were to go ahead and say, well this is fantasy, so bit me, I would probably take a greatsword, decrease the hitdice a bit and increase threat and crit multiplier...

Thomas
2007-01-12, 11:02 AM
Big sword = greatsword.

As simple as that.

Deus Mortus
2007-01-12, 11:10 AM
Alright I would make a Zanbato like this:


Two-handed Exotic Weapon
Zanbato, base cost 200 Gp
1d8 (small) 1d10 (medium) 2d6 (Large)
crit 18-20/x3
15 lb. Slashing dmg

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-12, 11:14 AM
I think the threat range is to high it should be 19-20 X3 or 18-20 x2

Pegasos989
2007-01-12, 11:15 AM
Alright I would make a Zanbato like this:


Two-handed Exotic Weapon
Zanbato, base cost 200 Gp
1d8 (small) 1d10 (medium) 2d6 (Large)
crit 17-20/x3
15 lb. Slashing dmg

No 17/x3 weapons. No, no no. Improved crit and you have 13/x3 weapon...

Thomas
2007-01-12, 11:20 AM
20/x2, 20/x3, 19-20/x2, and 18-20/x2 are the options for criticals. Going beyond that is unbalanced.

Behold_the_Void
2007-01-12, 11:21 AM
Large greatsword.

stainboy
2007-01-12, 11:30 AM
20/x2, 20/x3, 19-20/x2, and 18-20/x2 are the options for criticals. Going beyond that is unbalanced.

You forgot 20/x4.

Deus Mortus
2007-01-12, 12:00 PM
No 17/x3 weapons. No, no no. Improved crit and you have 13/x3 weapon...

Typo xD it was supposed to be 18

the_tick_rules
2007-01-12, 12:32 PM
yeah it sounds pretty much like a nodachi to me. in fact i have a book that sells nodachi's and it was called a horse killer itelf. but it's curved aspect would improve it's crit range as the scimitar and falchion indicate. basically to me it sounds like an exotic falchion.(except in oriental settings)

geez3r
2007-01-12, 12:38 PM
Well, in a fan-made naruto d20, they stated the Zanbato as such:

2d12 damage for medium creatures, 20/x3 crit

It required the exotic weapon proficiency, and monkey grip. you still suffered a -3 penalty to attack rolls though. Oh and it was considered a reach weapon.

oriong
2007-01-12, 01:05 PM
probably the closest weapon to it is the fullblade, but that's 3.0.

Otherwise it's pretty much monkey-grip a greatsword if you want to get a weapon that large (or depending on your DM use greatsword stats and just describe it as being ridiculously huge)

Amiria
2007-01-12, 01:19 PM
Another thing might be the Jovar (Planar Handbook). Basically an exotic greatsword with a better crit range (18-20/x2).

Errata
2007-01-12, 01:25 PM
18-20/x3 is overkill. 18-20/x3 has similar expected critical output to 15-20/x2 or 20/x7. Thats just nuts. If you wanted to go one step above the standard critical amounts, you could go with 19-20/x3. That would be similar to 17-20/x2 or 20/x5.

Rebonack
2007-01-12, 01:29 PM
20/x2, 20/x3, 19-20/x2, and 18-20/x2 are the options for criticals. Going beyond that is unbalanced.

Is it now?

Perhaps someone could explain to me then why a x6 critical would be 'unbalanced'. The average damage from critical hits would be the same as 18-20/x2.

Premier
2007-01-12, 01:48 PM
Is it now?

Perhaps someone could explain to me then why a x6 critical would be 'unbalanced'. The average damage from critical hits would be the same as 18-20/x2.

Because on average it would be just as powerful against high-HP enemies, but a LOT more deadly against low and medium-HP enemies, who would be killed off with one hit. In other words, you gained something on one end of the enemy spectrum without sacrificing anything in return.

Rebonack
2007-01-12, 02:01 PM
Because on average it would be just as powerful against high-HP enemies, but a LOT more deadly against low and medium-HP enemies, who would be killed off with one hit. In other words, you gained something on one end of the enemy spectrum without sacrificing anything in return.

Untrue.

You have opted for a higher variance in your damage. Less stable damage is the down side. Sure you might deal 90 points of hp damage (or more depending on the build) every now and again, but that's hardly anything to rely on.

Besides which, a x2 confirmed critical delivered by a well built martial type should be killing off low HP opponents in one hit as well. If anything, a x6 crit would be overkill just about every time it confirms.

TheThan
2007-01-12, 02:03 PM
I rolled up the stats for a zanbato once, please don’t jump on my case about it not being historically accurate, it is inspired off of an anime after all. (plus the weapon doesn’t seem to have ever been real, so meh). I’ll post them below.


Zanbatou
Weapon type: sword
Proficiency: exotic weapon proficiency (Zanbatou)
Damage: 3d8-slashing/ bludgeoning
Range: 10ft (reach only)
Critical range: 20
Critical damage: x2
Requirements: 20 or more strength
Availability: rare
Weight: a lot
Cost: 700 gold
Special
Encumbering weapon
Due to the shear weight of the Zanbatou the wielder is forced to take a –2 penalty to his defense. Also this weapon is so large that it must be held when carried (as in it cannot be placed in a sheathe or scabbard). It also imparts a –2 penalty to balance, hide, tumble, jump and swim checks. Also it cannot be used in confined spaces.
Powerful blow
The zanbatou is such a huge and heavy weapon that when the user attempts to bull rush (see bull rush page 154 PHB) an opponent; he gains a +4 strength bonus to the attack roll. Also the user gains a +4 bonus when attempting to sunder an enemy’s weapon (this stacks with the bonus for using a 2 -handed weapon).
Sweeping strikes
The zanbatou is so big that it allows the user to strike more than one enemy at a time. Any enemies adjacent to the defending enemy provoke an attack of opportunity against the attacker. (See attacks of opportunity page 137 PHB).
Reach
The zanbatou is treated as a reach weapon. You can attack someone up to 10 feet away. You may also strike adjacent enemies with it.

The legendary zanbatou is an oversized sword measuring about 10 feet long. While about a 3rd of this length is taken up by the handle; the sword is extremely heavy and unwieldy. This weapon was designed to level the “playing field” and is excellent when used as an anti Calvary weapon.

elliott20
2007-01-12, 02:19 PM
A Zhan Ma Dao did exist.

But it's nothing like the Zanbatou. It's actually more like a sickle attached to the end of a pole.

JaronK
2007-01-12, 02:26 PM
The best criticals published are 18-20/X2 and 20/X4. Never are increased range and increased damage combined. Ever.

That said, if you want this thing to just be a really freaking big sword, go with the Fullblade or Jovar rules. 2d8 damage, 19-20/X2 critical (Fullblade) or 2d6 damage, 18-20/X2 critical.

JaronK

Rebonack
2007-01-12, 02:44 PM
Better crits have been published. They just got smacked with errata really quickly.

Halfling_Defender
2007-01-12, 02:56 PM
Wow, thanks for the quick replys everyone. I'll definately look into the Naruto RPG and see what their stats say.

This description also sounds good to me...

Two-handed Exotic Weapon(reach weapon)
Zanbato, base cost 200 Gp
2d8 (medium) 3d6 (Large)
crit 18-20/x3
15 lb. Slashing/Bludgening dmg

I mean the character i'm thinking of giving it to is a half-stone giant brawler/monk who'd probably only use it against things bigger than him.

Errata
2007-01-12, 03:21 PM
Is it now?

Perhaps someone could explain to me then why a x6 critical would be 'unbalanced'. The average damage from critical hits would be the same as 18-20/x2.

No, thats wrong. You're forgetting that you hit for x1 damage anyway, even if its not a critical. So thats where your math gets messed up. You always have to subtract 1 from the critical multiplier when making these comparisons. The relative value is calculated with range * (multiplier-1).

18-20/x2 is mathematically similar in expected damage output to 20/x4 (both have the range*(multiplier-1) value of 3). A 20/x6 critical would be equivalent to 16-20/x2

Errata
2007-01-12, 03:27 PM
Wow, thanks for the quick replys everyone. I'll definately look into the Naruto RPG and see what their stats say.

This description also sounds good to me...

Two-handed Exotic Weapon(reach weapon)
Zanbato, base cost 200 Gp
2d8 (medium) 3d6 (Large)
crit 18-20/x3
15 lb. Slashing/Bludgening dmg

I mean the character i'm thinking of giving it to is a half-stone giant brawler/monk who'd probably only use it against things bigger than him.

Well obviously its not in line with any base weapon type. If it were possible to make a mundane weapon so much better than any other, why would anyone in your universe not be using that instead? So why persist in considering it a regular weapon type, rather than just making it a specific magic weapon with whatever stats you want? Its clearly got to be magical to be so much better in every way than everything else.

But you're the DM. You don't have to justify yourself to us.

Rebonack
2007-01-12, 03:39 PM
*blink*

*face-palm*

Yes, you're right.

elliott20
2007-01-12, 03:43 PM
Don't forget, the weapon that the OP just described usually requires that TWO people wield it together. (At least, according to the anime sources they stem from)

In all honesty, I think the concept of a weapon used to take down mounts is a good one. but the very idea that it's basically just a really big Great sword, but without the penalties of one, is just stupid, both from a design perspective and a balance perspective.

I mean, seriously, a weapon of that kind of size would just be extremely unwieldly and would be highly impractical. Might as well just stick with a nodachi or a pole-arm

Gamebird
2007-01-12, 05:16 PM
In all honesty, I think the concept of a weapon used to take down mounts is a good one.

They're called caltrops and spears.

One thing I think the system needs is a weapon that prevents people from closing. Say, something like this:

Boarspear
Reach weapon
d8 (Medium), 20/x3
Whenever an enemy provokes an attack of opportunity while closing to attack you, including during a charge, this weapons has a special effect. On a successful attack of opportunity on such an enemy, the enemy is stopped and ends their action. You get no further attacks of opportunity for one round.


but the very idea that it's basically just a really big Great sword, but without the penalties of one, is just stupid, both from a design perspective and a balance perspective.

I agree.

ampcptlogic
2007-01-12, 05:47 PM
All things considered, I vote for The Than's write-up. The boarspear is also a cool idea.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-01-12, 06:24 PM
I made a Dragonslayer sword (zanryuto? I'm feeling to lazy to check my Japanese right now) ages ago on this board. Probably buried beneath piles of junk now.

The Zanbattou has no real justification for 18-20 crit. Giving unwieldyness a bonus to precise strikes seems bonkers. If anything it would be x3.

In fact I'd probably say that a Zanbattou is either a Greatsword or a Nagamaki. Possible a large version of one of those.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-01-12, 08:23 PM
Two-handed Exotic Weapon(reach weapon)
Zanbato, base cost 200 Gp
2d6 (medium) 3d6 (Large)
crit 18-20/x2
15 lb. Slashing/Bludgening dmg

Fixed. Anything beyond this is far too overpowered.

Jack Mann
2007-01-12, 09:03 PM
I'd be willing to go as high as 3d6 on the weapon, with a 20x3 critical. If it's exotic, they're paying a feat for it. It should be better than a martial weapon.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-01-12, 09:11 PM
It is better than a martial weapon. Show me a reach martial weapon that deals 2d6 damage and crits on 18-20. 3d6 is way overpowered, for a Medium weapon.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-12, 09:35 PM
I had a BBEG that wielded a colossal +10 keen ghost touch unholy power greatsword once (he was human). He utilized some powerful artifact gauntlets and the blessing of a war god to do it, but the result was a truly devastating mega-warrior.

But I would NEVER let a PC get ahold of something that insane. The gauntlets disintegrated as soon as he died, just to be on the safe side.

Magnus_Samma
2007-01-13, 01:12 AM
probably the closest weapon to it is the fullblade, but that's 3.0.



Knowing I'm going to get rocks thrown at me for this, but is it really that hard to just use the weapon in 3.5? The system didn't change so much that it isn't pretty obvious how it would work. The weapon doesn't seem at all unbalanced to me if you allow, say, spiked chains...

Malachite
2007-01-13, 10:37 AM
As a complement to TheThan's write-up, how about saying that since it's so heavy, the wielder always counts as using the Whirlwind Attack feat? That means the weight carries it around to hit everyone next to him, but it's too heavy to bring to bear against a single enemy more than once in a round. That could balance out some of the high damage output issues.

Thomas
2007-01-13, 10:57 AM
I'd be willing to go as high as 3d6 on the weapon, with a 20x3 critical. If it's exotic, they're paying a feat for it. It should be better than a martial weapon.

Sure, but the amount of "better" is pretty precise. 20/x3 is fine (since a greatsword is 19-20/x2), and the damage would go up to 2d8.

Tor the Fallen
2007-01-13, 03:35 PM
If it's for killing horses, give a penalty for making attacks on non-equines.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-01-13, 05:33 PM
If it's for killing horses, give a penalty for making attacks on non-equines.

Makes no real sense. Apart from magic bane weapons, the idea that a weapon should only work on a particular creature doesn't work. It's better to give it a bonus that will work on the thing it's supposed to be good against but also on other similar things.

Roderick_BR
2007-01-13, 06:04 PM
Just a little nitpicking: according to D20's rules, no weapon can have a threat ranger higher than 1 and a damage multiplier higher than x2 at the same time, save magical effects/feats, or fire arms.
So, no, or your meelee weapon is 19-20/x2, or 20/x3. You can't have 19-20/x3

Premier
2007-01-13, 06:36 PM
If you're about to houserule in a new weapon, why fret about houseruling a related rule out of existence?

jono
2007-01-13, 07:26 PM
Erm, this all seems overly complicated. It's obvioulsy up to you how you write it up for your own campaign, but is there really any need to create a whole new weapon just because you saw it in an anime?

Enchanted Greatsword of Mount-Bane.
Dmg(s) 1d10.
Dmg(m) 2d6.
Crit. threat: 19-20/*2
Weight(m/s) 8lbs/4lbs.
Special:
+1 Enhancement bonus.
+2 Enhancement Vs. Horses, Warhorses, Ponies, Warponies & Riding Dogs.

Magnus_Samma
2007-01-13, 09:32 PM
is there really any need to create a whole new weapon just because you saw it in an anime?


Need? No, not really. Do you NEED to play D&D at all? No. You play D&D because it's fun. And sometimes, some people just want to carry around a really huge freaking sword and bisect horses with it, because it's fun.

Wehrkind
2007-01-13, 09:37 PM
Why are we fixated on making it a sword? All of the similar weapons I have seen seem to be more of a glaive with a short handle than a sword with a long one. Most swords are not that terribly tip heavy in design, so it seems that a glaive would be a good base. Make it exotic to be sure, and perhaps put a permanant penalty to hit, like a -1 or 2, since something that heavy would be awkward to use without extensive training or strength (I am thinking of a kwon dao when typing this, which is REALLY wierd to use since 80% of the weight is in the last foot of it.) Then use a 20 crit and a higher multiplier. Also, I would use a very tight damage range, since assuming you can make it connect, it is going to hurt a lot every time, even on a glance.

Horse Cutting Blade
Exotic Weapon
Dmg: 4d4 +1 (Average 10.5, same as 3d6)
Crit: 20x4
Hit Penalty -1
-1 to initiative
Reach

Tor the Fallen
2007-01-14, 01:25 AM
Makes no real sense. Apart from magic bane weapons, the idea that a weapon should only work on a particular creature doesn't work. It's better to give it a bonus that will work on the thing it's supposed to be good against but also on other similar things.

Did you know kevlar only works against bullets? Absolutely useless against knives.

Magnus_Samma
2007-01-14, 02:47 AM
Did you know kevlar only works against bullets? Absolutely useless against knives.

And as we all know, horses make a habit of wearing kevlar.

If your point is that different weapons could deal damage differently to different creatures based on how they're built or how thick their hide is, I'll grant you that, but as I understand it the only real specialization the zanbato had against horses was that it was big enough to chop them up- and the sword just being really big is an adaptation that would work equally well against just about whatever creature you intend to swing it at.

SDF
2007-01-14, 02:53 AM
I say make it a fullblade or greatsword you can set against a charge. Against a charge because that is the whole point of the weapon.

JaronK
2007-01-14, 03:04 AM
There's a very basic system for how to generate weapons, that pretty much all of them follow. It is as follows, and you can check by looking in your PHB:

The base weapons are as follows:

Light Weapon: 1d4, 20/X2
One Handed Weapon: 1d6, 20/X2
Two Handed Weapon: 1d10, 20/X2

Now, you may add a certain number of points to the weapon. Each point can increase the damage by one step (1d4->1d6->1d8->1d10->1d12... there are some exceptions, like sometimes 2d6 is used instead of 1d12, this makes a weapon more expensive). Points can also be used to give a weapon 5' of reach, to increase the critical threat range by one (but never more than 18-20), to increase the critical multiplier by one (but never more than X4, and never combine a multiplier increase with a threat range increase), to allow a weapon to hit closer than it's natural reach (such as the spiked chain, which has 10' reach but can hit at 5'), or to add one of various abilities.

Note that the ability to use a weapon with Weapon Finesse does not take up a point.

Simple weapons have one point (for example, a dagger is just the base weapon, plus one increase in threat range). Martial weapons have two points (for example, a longsword is the base one handed weapon, with one point for higher damage, and one point for greater threat range). Exotic Weapons have three points (a broadsword uses the same points as a longsword, but then increases the damage one more time).

Rarely are all the points used for one thing... especially for exotic weapons. Thus, you do not see exotic weapons with 1d10 20/X5, because that would be all three points spent on increasing critical multiplier.

Now, that's basically it. Note that you can "earn" more points by losing things. For example, the Spiked Chain loses damage (going from 1d10 to 2d4), thus giving it four points to spend, which it then spends on critical range, reach, hitting close, and tripping.

Using this system, we can see what's balanced. Both the Fullblade (2d8, 19-20/X2) and the Jovar (2d6, 18-20/X2) are just greatswords with one extra point spent and exotic status... this seems very reasonable for your purposes (and the Jovar is even 3.5 standard, though the Fullblade is 3.0). Also available from 3.0 is the Mercurial Greatsword (2d6, 20/X4), which is also balanced, though some complain about the realism (but this is a world where you can make potions that casts spells. Deal!).

So yeah, take your pick of any of those three. If you want reach and hitting close, you'll run out of points... it would have to be 1d10 19-20/X2, with the ability to hit close and reach.

Either that or you could decide this thing can't be used up close, but because it's for felling cavalry it can trip. Then it might be 1d10 19-20/X2, Reach, and Can Make Trip Attempts with the weapon. That would also be fine.

JaronK

Tor the Fallen
2007-01-14, 03:11 AM
And as we all know, horses make a habit of wearing kevlar.

If your point is that different weapons could deal damage differently to different creatures based on how they're built or how thick their hide is, I'll grant you that, but as I understand it the only real specialization the zanbato had against horses was that it was big enough to chop them up- and the sword just being really big is an adaptation that would work equally well against just about whatever creature you intend to swing it at.

Not presicely "deal damage differently," but deliver that damage at a different time, and in a different place. Hammers, for instance, are great at putting nails in wood, but as a weapon, per RAW, aren't so hot.

Horses are big, easy, unnimble targets, compared to a human. Especially a horse ridden straight down on you.

I'd say keep it a martial weapon, just treat it as an improvised weapon vs. non-horses.

Wehrkind
2007-01-14, 05:12 AM
That makes sense to me. It is going to do a lot of damage to whatever it hits, just anything smaller than a horse is going to be a little awkward to hit since it is designed to be big and powerful, with little regard to finesse.

Catharsis
2007-01-14, 07:56 AM
Zweihänders are the largest swords that made enough sense to be used in real life wars. Even so, they were mainly used to breach walls of pikes, and their wielders required bodyguards with shorter swords because swinging such a heavy sword left you wide open to attacks. Something like a zanbato would be even clumsier, rather a mobile horse-trap than an actual carried weapon.

Monkey-gripped Large greatsword is probably the perfect translation of that concept to D&D. It sucks, so people don't use it.

(Frankly, I don't see the fun in ridiculously oversized swords and other such manga-isms. But, meh, to each his own.)

jono
2007-01-14, 11:07 AM
Need? No, not really. Do you NEED to play D&D at all? No. You play D&D because it's fun. And sometimes, some people just want to carry around a really huge freaking sword and bisect horses with it, because it's fun.

You're missing my point. I know it might be fun to run around and have a big fricking sword that does in peoples mounts. But you can just as easily say "Before you sits a big fricking sword <Craft Weapon check DC: 15> "It appears to be designed for use against charging cavalry." and just clone the stats for a magic greatsword, and add some additional bonuses against mounted animals

Keen vs. mounted animals, +1 EB vs. mounts, Vorpal Vs. mounted animals, Readying Vs. a charging mount does double damage. Something along those lines.