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qazzquimby
2013-11-24, 03:00 AM
Transvolution

http://i39.tinypic.com/2w7j0hc.jpg
Image credit to Kyzaro (http://dragoness17.deviantart.com/art/Kyzaro-390856489)


Thanks to Arcanist for scores of advice and suggestions.

Long has science tampered with life, but none so directly and forcefully as the study of Transvolution. Where other domains seek to create mockeries of life, or alter it surgically, Transvolution re-imagines life by unifying two creatures into one image.

Transvolutionists generally use detailed anatomical charts, syringes, and secure bindings while practicing their studies. Most Transvolutionists also use self-designed machines to restructure their subjects. Any specialized equipment like this is treated as a masterwork item and provides a +2 circumstance bonus on the handle animal check to determine a hybrid’s survival. The Trieuson listings is a famed magical document, containing detailed anatomical records of every creature yet discovered.

Key skill: Change Shape

TRNV 101: Intro into Transvolution
Grade: Baccalaureate
Prerequisites: None
Preparation Time: 1 hour
Target: Two creatures

This principle can fuse two creatures of the same type, (hereby referred to as the donors) into a single new creature (hereby referred to as the hybrid). Each unwilling target can make a Fort save against a DC of your Control Shape Check. When you begin preparation, choose a mutability DC. The mutability DC represents how drastically the creature will mutate, and how dangerous the procedure is. A lower mutability DC results in the hybrid being an average of its parts, and missing most of the traits not owned by both parents. A high mutability DC makes the hybrid much more colorful, taking individual traits from either donor.

To determine whether the hybrid creature lives through the process, make a Control Shape check against 10 + the mutability DC + the difference between the donor creature’s size numbers (fine1, diminutive2, tiny3, small4, medium5, large6, huge7, garganuan8, colossal9). Success indicates survival, failure indicates death.

To determine each trait, make an unmodified roll against the mutability DC. If the die rolls higher than the DC, the hybrid’s trait is averaged between the two donor creatures. If the die rolls lower, the hybrid’s trait is a random number between the donor’s scores. Modify each donor creature to medium size, and make size adjustments after all traits are decided.
Go through this process for size, HD, speed (in 5ft intevervals), natural armor, BaB, each ability separately, good/evil alignment (Good1/UsuallyGood2/Neutral3/UsuallyEvil4/Evil5), and law/chaos (Lawful1/UsuallyLawfull2/Neutral3/UsuallyChaotic4/Chaotic5) alignment.

Next list all features of either parent in columns. Only mechanical features such as low light vision, swim speeds, and spell like abilities are required, but a lot of flavor can be created by randomizing traits such as the texture of the creatures skin, what their limbs are shaped like, or any other noteable differences between the donors. In more intelligent creatures it may become important to list the donor's memories and personalities as well. Features include all information about the donor creatures not included in the above statistics. Individual components of their physical descriptions (grey fur) and abilities (blindsight 60 ft) are all features. If the donors have contradicting features, such as a different number of limbs, different memories in intelligent creatures, or a different shape altogether, the features should be written side by side. If the feature describes a feature both donors have (such as limbs, memories, and shape), and it wouldn’t make sense to have neither feature, it probably belongs in this category. Mark which feature is simpler of the two. For instance patterned fur versus plain fur would result in plain fur, six eyes versus two eyes would result in two eyes (DMs discretion if he feels like going through all of this). If neither seems simpler, mark randomly. If the features have no incompatibilities, such as a spell like ability owned by only one donor, it should be left with a blank space next to it.

Make an unmodified roll against the mutability DC for each row of the table. When deciding which feature is kept from a pair, if the roll is above the mutability DC, choose the feature that is marked as simpler. Conversely, choose the more complicated feature if the roll is below the mutability DC.
When rolling for a lone feature, if the roll is above the mutability DC the feature is removed. If the roll is below the mutability DC, the feature remains with the hybrid.

Since I’m sure that sounds hellishly complicated, you can also use my spreadsheet here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtzP0_4rPKjjdHpuRVNvNzM4UVgtUVdFLS1uaTFJU lE&usp=sharing)

TRNV 143: Odious Unifications [Specialist]
Grade: Baccalaureate
Prerequisites: Control Shape 4 ranks
Preparation Time: 1 hour
Target: Two creatures, or two bodies of solid material of no more than 8 cubic ft. and weighing no more than 5,000 lb

This principle works like TRNV 101, but your Transvolution is much more flexible. Donors do not need to be the same type, so long as they are within the same group out of the following.

Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Giant.
Animal, Magical Beast, Vermin.

Hybrids do not use types like normal creatures, instead type determined traits such as hit die are generated randomly. Of the donor's types, one is randomly determined to be the hybrids type, and the second is it's augmented subtype.

In addition, after this principle is learned, you can choose one creature type per 4 ranks in Control Shape. These types can always be hybridized, regardless of the other donor's type.

After this principle is learned, you get a +4 to hybrid's survival checks.


TRNV 231: Equivalent Allocation
Grade: Magisterial
Prerequisites: TRNV 101, Control Shape 8 ranks
Preparation Time: 1 hour
Target: Two creatures

This principle works like TRNV 101, or like TRNV 143 if you have learned it, but you can raise the survival DC by any positive number before rolling for survival. The hybrid gains a number of shift points equal to the amount the survival DC is raised. If the hybrid survives, at the end of the hybrid’s generation you can expend one shift point to subtract one point from one ability to add one point to another ability.

In addition, after this principle is learned, all TRNV priciples can target two bodies of uniform material to hybridize them, much the same way you would a creature with these exceptions.

If the hybrid material would fail their survival check, the materials appear burned, twisted, and crumbly. This new material, often called ash, has no hardness, 1 hit point per inch of thickness, no melting point, floats on any liquid, and emits a thin but unpleasant smell.

When rolling for the hybrids stats, make a row for the materials hardness, hit points per inch of thickness, weight (if known), buoyancy, flammability, and any special traits. The hybrid is always 8 cubic ft, so material is always lost in this fusion.

TRNV 280: Precise Vicissitude [Specialist]
Grade: Magisterial
Prerequisites: TRNV 101, Control Shape 8 ranks
Preparation Time: 1 hour
Target: Two creatures or objects

This principle works like TRNV 231, but before features are generated you can expend three shift points to choose which feature is inherited, or whether a feature is inherited or not, for a single row.

In addition, after this principle is learned, all TRNV priciples can target two objects or weapons to hybridize them, much the same way you would a creature with these exceptions.

If the hybrid object or weapon would fail their survival check, the materials appear burned, twisted, and crumbly. This new material, often called ash, has no hardness, 1 hit point per inch of thickness, no melting point, floats on any liquid, and emits a thin but unpleasant smell.

When rolling for the hybrids stats, make a row for the materials hardness, hit points per inch of thickness, weight (if known), buoyancy, flammability, and any special traits. Objects usually mix features, such as a hat and a lantern becoming a functional hat made of lantern, or a non-functional latern, made of hat. When generating weapon hybrids, roll for its type (simple, martial exotic), size, minimum damage, maximum damage, range increment, critical multiplier, weight, and damage type, as well as any special features. The weapon can have any number of damage dice, of any size, so long as the weapon stays equal to or below its maximum and minimum damage.

TRNV 349: Unbalanced Appropriation
Grade: Doctorate
Prerequisites: Any three TRNV principles, Control Shape 15 ranks
Preparation Time: 1 hour
Target: Two creatures

This principle works like the highest level of TRNV 101, TRNV 231, or TRNV 280 that you have learned, but if the hybrid survives, at the end of the hybrid’s generation you can expend two shift points to add one point to any ability. This principle cannot be used if it was used to create either of the donors. In addition, after this principle is learned, all TRNV principles can be used on shapechangers.

In addition, after this principle is learned, when creating a hybrid with any principle, you can choose to make multiple hybrids instead of one. Each hybrid is generated separately (making the spreadsheet I made even more useful). Each hybrid's survival DC is multiplied by the number of hybrids being made from that preparation.

TRNV 399: Unhindered Transmorphosis [Specialist]
Grade: Doctorate
Prerequisites: Any three TRNV principles, Control Shape 15 ranks
Preparation Time: 1 hour
Target: Two creatures

This principle works like the highest level of TRNV 101, TRNV 231, TRNV 280, or TRNV 349 that you have learned, but has several dramatic differences. With TRNV 399 you can sculpt a creature in whatever image you choose. This acts as if a single donor creature is being fused with any creature (at DM’s discretion) without its presence being required. During this procedure you can choose which traits will be affected, and which will remain stable from the present donor to the hybrid. Any mechanical changes between the host and the hybrid can be refluffed however you like, and non-mechanical changes can be added freely. The survival DC when using this principle is raised by two times the non-present creature's HD.


Discoveries:
Common Ancestry: Similar morphology? Interesting. You've successfully found gene markers that would denote a common ancestry between all organic life across the cosmos. This Discovery allows you to ignore type restrictions when choosing donors, so long as neither donor is undead or construct.

Inorganic Transvolution: Although inorganic and undead creatures transevolve very differently than living organisms, it is possible to find a perfect balance of animate and inanimate material to create a living hybrid. This allows you to hybridize Construct and Undead creatures with any other types.

Prestructured Genus: Certain traits seem to be common among a huge variety of creatures. You have located the most basic building block of any creatures form, giving you greater control over hybrid creation. When you create a hybrid, you can choose which of its donor's types it inherits, and can choose whether or not to include the second type as an augmented subtype. You may also choose to take all traits from the type normally, instead of generating them randomly.

Geneticular Chunking: Certain traits seem to be connected, and with great care, groups of related traits can be worked upon together, without severing the thread that binds them. You may choose whether or not to carry a template over from a donor onto the hybrid, and at your choice, the hybrid can use the template normally instead of just including its traits in random generation.

Molded Form: With increasing knowledge of creature's internal workings, you can tweak the hybrid's body and mind, just as it's beginning to form. When creating a hybrid you can subtract a number of points from any of the hybrid's ability scores equal to 1/5th your Control Shape check. You can add the same number of points to any of the hybrid's ability scores.

Empowered Form: By adding a little extra push during hybridization, your ensure that your creations are always more than the sum of their parts. When creating a hybrid you can add up to 1/10th your Control Shape check in points to any of the hybrids ability scores. These bonuses never carry over during hybridization. Instead the creature's unmodified scores are used.

Stabilized Form: You've become adept at isolating key areas of a creatures form, granting you increased control over the hybrid's form. When creating a hybrid you can choose a number of traits or features up to 1/15th your Control Shape check. You may decide whether these features are carried over to the hybrid.

Gentle Fusion: Combining two living creatures is an incredibly dangerous process. By locating key problem areas and avoiding conflicting growths, your procedures have a greater survival rate. When creating a hybrid, you may make one reroll to determine whether or not the hybrid survives.


Theories:

Theory of Divine Enervation: When creating a hybrid, you may supply it with faith, as you would a platinum transformer. If the hybrid receives the equivalent of 20 x the creature's HD ebbs in faith, you may choose to give it the all the traits of an Abomination (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm).

Theory of Compatible Forms: By deactivating parts of a donor's form, you can keep them stable and intact in the hybrid. Any hybrid you make after this theory is learned can change one of its features or traits to the feature or trait that would have been granted by the opposite donor as a full round action, or when triggered by a heuretical circuit, if the hybrid is a creature. If they hybrid is a material or object, a trait can be changed by making a full round action and touching the object, or a circuit connected to the object, and making a Control Shape check higher than the initial check.

Volthawk
2013-11-24, 09:04 AM
I don't get your complex/simple thing, eg how you judge giraffe eyes to be more complex. I also don't get why the giraffe's herbivore nature is a feature but the cat's carnivorous diet isn't. Also, why is BAB rolled for separately when it's determined purely by HD and type? Also, for 143, when you use two different types, what type is the hybrid?

Initially, I didn't see the point of raising your handle animal (since you set the DC), but reading the shift point stuff I can see why you'd want it now, so that's not really a complaint anymore.

Corwin Icewolf
2013-11-24, 11:48 AM
Thought 1: that's really awesome.

Thought 2: it doesn't quite feel distinct from biollurgy. Seeing as biollurgy (partially) involves creating new life, and this is about altering life. Don't get me wrong here it's still cool, and I definitely like the idea of being able to screw around with existing animals.

And the oddities in your spreadsheet have been mentioned.

qazzquimby
2013-11-24, 11:57 AM
The spreadsheet doesn't work with complex/simple features, it just chooses one at random. You're right about the cats carnivorous nature being a feature, I have not enough experience with cats, so I left the space empty with neither being chosen leading to a cattish diet. I did the same thing with the spotty pattern and long neck, because it works out to be functionally the same as including a simple/complicated version of features. If it does not select long neck, I know the simpler cat neck is inherited.

You're right though. How I've laid it out now (and this only works easily with the spreadsheet, I don't want to make hybridization more complicated than it already is) is filled the average feature space, so the hybrid could be carnivore, omnivore, or herbivore.

As for rolling BaB and determining type, I might be stepping on unhallowed ground, but I was considering the hybrid to a blend of the two types, or without a distinct type. If you combine an ooze with an undead, the hybrid will get a mixture of the oozes form and the undeads immunity, and will inherit somebodies BaB. If it's important I could add a roll for type, or I could make some table showing which type is dominant in any fusion.

It is similar to Biollurgy. It's kind of a mixture of Biollurgy and Xenosalchemy. It doesn't fit all that well with existing disciplines because most disciplines interact very well, and allow you to make increasingly complex machines by combining them. Transvolution is more separated except for the small ability in TRNV 101 allowing you to breed implants.

Thanks for the comments, those are all very good points.

EdroGrimshell
2013-11-24, 11:10 PM
Was this based on Encyclopedia Arcane: Magical Crossbreeding? Because this is extremely similar to the idea.

If not, I can give you some ideas from the book to refine this concept and make it more streamlined.

qazzquimby
2013-11-24, 11:23 PM
I read the book a while ago, and it was probably the inspiration, but I had forgotten about it. What would your advice be? I'm a little scared to ask, as I'd risk making it even more extremely similar.

EdroGrimshell
2013-11-24, 11:49 PM
I read the book a while ago, and it was probably the inspiration, but I had forgotten about it. What would your advice be? I'm a little scared to ask, as I'd risk making it even more extremely similar.

Actually I like the idea of it being similar, because it's a 3.0 book that needs updating, this just makes it so much better/easier to accomplish.

First, I'd actually use the type chart in the book, with the same modifiers to the Mutability DC (possibly rebalanced slightly). Use that to determine BAB, Saves, HD size and the like. It makes it more streamlined.

Make it so later principles let you alter the type to one of the types of its donor or even another type. Like one that lets you perform pseudo-necromancy by turning the hybrid into an undead or applying a template. On that note, give an option to apply certain templates, like Winged, Reptilian, Skeleton, the Half templates, etc.

I'd also change the associated skill to Craft (Alchemy), Control Shape (that skill for inflicted lycanthropes), or even Use Rope (like you take strands of essence and tie them into special knots to get the hybrid just right with each principle being new knots you can use) or Appraise (determining the "value" of each trait and trying to adjust the value appropriately).

And lastly, give it some synergy by allowing it to fuse materials as well as creatures, so you could say, have a suit of mithril/adamantine armor that is both as light as mithril and as strong as adamantine, or a multi-material input/output.

This allows you to tie this discipline together with other disciplines better, streamline the process for animal fusions, and make it more balanced. If you still have the book, I'd say read through it again to see what you can adapt to apply to this discipline to make it better and more streamlined.


EDIT: For reference, this is the chart I use for my (rudimentary) adaptation
{table=head]XX|AB|AN|C|D|E|F|G|H|MB|MH|OO|OU|P|V|U
AB|AB|AB|C|AB|OU|AB|AB|AB|AB|AB|AB|AB|P|AB|AB
AN|AB|MB|C|AB|OU|F|MH|MH|MB|MH|AB|OU|P|MB|AB
C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C
D|AB|AB|C|D|OU|F|MH|MH|MB|AB|AB|OU|P|AB|AB
E|OU|OU|C|OU|E|OU|OU|OU|OU|OU|OU|OU|OU|OU|AB
F|AB|F|C|F|OU|F|F|F|F|F|AB|OU|F|F|AB
G|AB|MH|C|MH|OU|F|G|G|MH|G|AB|OU|P|AB|AB
H|AB|MH|C|MH|OU|F|G|H|MH|MH|AB|OU|P|MH|AB
MB|AB|MB|C|MB|OU|F|MH|MH|MB|MH|AB|OU|P|MB|AB
MH|AB|MH|C|AB|OU|F|G|MH|MH|MH|AB|OU|P|MH|AB
OO|AB|AB|C|AB|OU|AB|AB|AB|AB|AB|OO|AB|P|AB|AB
OU|AB|OU|C|OU|OU|OU|OU|OU|OU|OU|AB|OU|P|OU|AB
P|P|P|C|P|OU|F|P|P|P|P|P|P|P|P|AB
V|AB|MB|C|AB|OU|F|AB|MH|MB|MH|AB|OU|P|V|AB
U|AB|AB|C|AB|AB|AB|AB|AB|AB|AB|AB|AB|AB|AB|U[/table]

Shapechangers add +5 to the DC

Corwin Icewolf
2013-11-25, 12:53 PM
One thing to add to edogrimshell's post. If it can fuse materials it should also be able to fuse materials with animals at some point. Hello adamantine skeleton.

Arcanist
2013-11-25, 04:50 PM
Before I make any criticism positive or negative, I've got to test the principles myself on a selective blueprint by itself. Before I do this, I need to know what disciplines this is supposed to work in conjunction with? Obviously it would be Biollurgy and, by association, everything else that works with Biollurgy, but I'm curious if their is anything else you have in mind.


EDIT: For this Blueprint, we will be assuming the following. The designer is both a Gramarist 20 with the Theory of Everything and possess an E.I. Court allowing him to create any piece of Gramarie listed (including Hortistruction, Psychomantics, and Transvolution) and every Prestige class specific option as well as every Discovery just for the purpose of creating something with this new content. I must confess a certain level of incapability here since it has been some time since I've made a proper Blueprint so if I do not do your Discipline justice, I deeply apologize.



A better horse, for a better man...

Name: Magitek Bred Horse
Principle: ALCH 286, ALCH 325, ALCH 364, ARCD 176, ARCD 204, ARCD 230, ARCD 350, ARCD 365, BIOY 101, BIOY 191, BIOY 228, BIOY 273, BIOY 340, BIOY 381, HEUR 101, HEUR 245, HEUR 266, KALD 101, KALD 107, KALD 238, KALD 282, KALD 347, KALD 379, YGGD 101, YGGD 241, TRNV 101, TRNV 143, TRNV 231, TRNV 280, TRNV 349, TRNV 399, PSYM 101, PSYM 269, PSYM 384
Discoveries: Rabbit Hole, Colourgami, Oefficient Orichalcum, Continual Carmot, Quixotic Quicksilver, Nolzur's Identity, Heart of the Matter, Genetic Gramarie, Bizarre Fleshshape, Real Steel, Ruby Ruination, System Administrator, Indoctrination, Into the Mist, Imposed Obedience, New Age Platform
Prestige Classes: Arcanitect 10th, Graughtsman 5th, Millwight 10th
Feats: Creative Surgeon, Diplomatic Immunity, Equivalent Circuits, Force of Mind, Craft Construct, Craft Magical Arms and Armor
Items: Platinum, Gold, Silver, a Cauchemar Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightmare.htm), a Nymph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nymph.htm), an Efreeti (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti) and a Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend).
Theories: The Theory of Soft Characteristics, The Theory of Everything, Periodic Theory
Pre-designed Blueprints: Reading Rainbow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15998904&postcount=821), T-45d Power Armor & the Frank Horrigan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15656691&postcount=645),

Step 1
We begin by creating a Biollurgical Chassis made from Mercury, Platinum, Copper, Gold, Lead, Iron, Silver and Tin. The materials used to create this creature will be made more durable from phase changing via ALCH 325 to any temperature you deem appropriate for your game (I personally would like my Horse to be able to endure the heart of a star, but to each their own). This creature will be made using the Blueprint of the Frank Horrigan with the capability of reproduction and the application of the Theory of Soft Characteristics. This Frank Horrigan will also be modified to also function as a Transformer of every qualifying material and then ascended into it's superior form (Example: Platinum elevated into Orichalcum). Except for Gold into Sunmetal (which could be disastrous for the rider). Thereafter you Crossbreed the Chassis with the following creatures: A Cauchemar, a Nymph, an Efreeti, a Pit Fiend and a Warmaker of at least 21st level.

Step 2
Your end result with this massive crossbreeding expedition should look something like this.


Size/Type: Huge Outsider (Lawful, Evil, Extraplanetary)
Hit Dice: 5d8 + 7d8 (Warmaker)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 60 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 33 (+9 (Cha) +16 (Natural Armor) - 2 (Size)); Touch 17; Flat-footed 33
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+21
Attack: claw +13 melee (2d8+3); hoof +13 melee (2d6+3 plus 1d4 fire); bite +13 melee (2d6+1); Vorpal Longsword +13 melee (3d6+1; 19-20/×2); Tail +13 melee (5d6+3).
Full Attack: 2 claws +13 melee (2d8+3); 2 hooves +13 melee (2d6+3 plus 1d4 fire); 1 bite +13 melee (2d6+1); 1 Vorpal Longsword +13 melee (3d6+1; 19-20/×2); Tail +13 melee (5d6+3)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Art of War, blinding beauty, change size, flaming hooves, glance, heat, principles of gramarie, smoke, stunning, spells, summon devil.
Special Qualities: Astral projection, change shape, darkvision 60 ft., etherealness, gramarie grafts, grist for the mill, rank (Artilleryman), living gramarie, low-light vision, martial law, sphere of influence, unearthly grace,
Saves: Fort +18, Ref +15, Will +18
Abilities: Str 17, Con 23, Dex 10, Int 15, Wis 27, Cha 29
Skills: Autohypnosis +23, Diplomacy +24, Concentration +22, Disable Device +17, Listen +23, Spot +23, Sense Motive +23, Survival +23, Iaijutsu Focus +24, Use Magic Device +21
Feats: Improved Initiative (1st), Armor Proficiency (Heavy) (3rd), Power Attack(6th), Cleave (9th), Greater Cleave (12th), Weapon Focus (Longsword) B, Vile Weapon Focus (Longsword) B
Environment: The lower planes (Wild)
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: Unknown
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually any Evil
Advancement: By class level
Level Adjustment: —

Astral Projection and Etherealness (Su): These abilities function just like the spells of the same names (caster level 20th); a Magitek-Bred Horse can use either at will.

Blinding Beauty (Su): This ability affects all humanoids within 30 feet of a Magitek-Bred Horse. Those who look directly at a nymph must succeed on a DC 21 Fortitude save or be blinded permanently as though by the blindness spell. A Magitek-Bred Horse can suppress or resume this ability as a free action.

Change Shape (Su): A Magitek-Bred Horse can assume the form of any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid or giant.

Change Size (Sp): Twice per day, a Magitek-Bred Horse can magically change a creature’s size. This works just like an enlarge person or reduce person spell (the Magitek-Bred Horse chooses when using the ability), except that the ability can work on the Magitek-Bred Horse. A DC 21 Fortitude save negates the effect. The save DC is Charisma-based. This is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell.

Flaming Hooves (Su): A blow from a Magitek-Bred Horse’s hooves sets combustible materials alight.

Gramarie Grafts: A Magitek-Bred Horse, is created strictly for the purpose of fighting and serving as a Gramarist steed. This is the most basic form for such a creature and as such, they have rather primative grafts attached to them, as listed below.

{table=head]Slot|Name|Effect
Eyes|True Seeing Eyes|See through any Illusion
Head|Wakeful Mind|No longer require sleep
Torso|Trollskin|Regeneration 1, Only damaged by fire
Hands|Hands of Balor|Swift Action, +1 Vorpal Sword
Body|Ghost-Stitched Soul|Rejuvenation as Ghost
Throat|Angel's Tongue|Tongue as the spell
Legs|Coiled Legs|Pounce ability
Waist|Tail Slap|1d6 bludgeoning damage, +2 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks|
Waist|Constricting Tail|5d6+Str Mod on Grapple checks[/table]

Living Gramarie (Ex): The Magitek-Bred Horse has a number of Gramarie pieces imbedded into it's body:

Orchalcum Bones: The Magitek-Bred Horse is able to store up to 2,000 ebbs to power it's various Engines. Transferring ebbs is treated as a single logical decision that the Magitek-Bred Horse can make as a Standard Action.
Carmot Blood: The Magitek-Bred Horse is treated as having Fast Healing 1. This also renders them immune to Electric effects and providing them with 1 ebb per 6 damage they would normally suffer (Max 178 ebbs).
Moonstone Limbs: The Magitek-Bred Horse can grab anything that is Ethereal. They can also allocate a number of ebbs towards this to heal themselves, healing themselves 1d6 damage for every ebb provided (Max 178 ebbs).
Quicksilver Heart: The Magitek-Bred Horse can take 2 rounds worth of actions in a single round. This also renders them immune to Cold effects and providing them with 1 ebb per 6 cold damage they would normally suffer.
Adamantine Lined Limbs: All spells casted against the Magitek-Bred Horse grant the Magitek-Bred Horse Spell level^2 in ebbs (max 178 ebbs). The Magitek-Bred Horse is immune to all Spells casted at them.
Natural Wood Transformer: The Magitek-Bred Horse can absorb ebbs into themselves if they so desire.
Golden Circulatory System: This system provides the Magitek-Bred Horse with 36 ebbs to use per round. Unused ebbs are placed into the Orchalcum for storage.
Two-part Engine: This Engine allows the Magitek-Bred Horse to Fly at 60ft requiring 4 ebbs per round to sustain.


Principles of Gramarie: The Magitek-Bred Horse can prepare the following principles as a Warmaker: ALCH 101, ARCD 101, ELDK 101, YGGD 101.

Regeneration (Ex): A Magitek-Bred Horse takes normal damage from good-aligned silvered weapons, and from spells or effects with the good descriptor.

Smoke (Su): During the excitement of battle, a Magitek-Bred Horse snorts and neighs with rage. This snorting fills a 15-foot cone with a hot, sulfurous smoke that chokes and blinds opponents. Anyone in the cone must succeed on a DC 19 Fortitude save or take a -2 penalty on all attack and damage rolls until 1d6 minutes after leaving the cone. The cone lasts 1 round, and the Magitek-Bred Horse uses it once as a free action during its turn each round. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Because of the smoke it gives off, a Magitek-Bred Horse has concealment against creatures 5 feet away and total concealment against creatures 10 feet or farther away. The smoke does not obscure the Magitek-Bred Horse’s vision at all.

Spells: A Magitek-Bred Horse casts and prepare divine spells as a 7th-level druid.
(6/7/5/4/3; DC 19 + spell level).

Stunning Glance (Su): As a standard action, a Magitek-Bred Horse can stun a creature within 30 feet with a look. The target creature must succeed on a DC 21 Fortitude save or be stunned for 2d4 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Summon Devil (Sp): Twice per day a Magitek-Bred Horse can automatically summon 2 lemures, bone devils, or bearded devils, or 1 erinyes, horned devil, or ice devil. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell.

Unearthly Grace (Su): A Magitek-Bred Horse adds her Charisma modifier as a bonus on all her saving throws, and as a deflection bonus to her Armor Class.

Step 3
Thereafter you must implement a Psychomantic Transmitter into the creatures brain to allow it to gain selective bonuses, applying the Circuit cause and the Placebo effect. It is recommended that you then connect the rider and the mount to a System to allow them to constantly remain in telepathic contact. Thereafter you connect every other creature to the same Network and apply an Obedience effect when necessary. You may use bonuses wherever necessary as well.

Step 4
You will then place the creature into T-45d Power Armor, making them effectively walking around with immunity: yes. I must admit that there is a sense of hilarity in that the mount can potentially be more durable than the rider.

Notes: There are some alterations to the Power Armor. More specifically, a contingency that triggers a Pink Filter outward by 30ft that prevents teleportation and a contingent black filter that triggers whenever the wearer would be subject to anything that would attempt to take information from the wearer without their consent.


Here I will be listing faults and recommendations towards making your Discipline work a bit more fluidly. These are just my opinions so take them as you will.


TRNV 101: Introduction to Transvolution: Before I begin on this principle, I would like to note that there is no listed Target for it like every other Principle.

Biolurigical Implants?: I believe you are referring to Xenoalchemic implants and grafts. There are no such things as Biollurgical implants. I'd make it specifically reference Xenoalchemy. In addition to this, give it limiting factors towards how many Grafts and implants that can be attached to a living creature. Perhaps using the requisite grades of the Grafts equal to the Graft level * 5 to construct a DC for applying it?
How do we know if it is dead?: You do not need to put a number value towards Fine and Colossal. The difference is completely self-evident. In addition to this, I would make the base DC equal 10 + any additional modifiers.
Random traits?: Why are these traits even randomized? Why not just make it based on the alignment table (http://ztoe.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/alignment1.gif)? Always being a +2 towards that direction, Usually being a +1 towards that direction and so on and so forth.
Physical appearances are important why?: It feels to me that you were trying to touch Hybridization TOO hard here to the point where you are placing mechanics on things that are not important in the slightest. Features such as Blindsight 60ft and Spell-like abilities are important because they have actual effects on the world. A creature's fur color? Not so much. Thereafter, lining up a creatures special traits on a table and rolling a d100 (50% chance) to determine which traits remain and which ones go in the final creature is perfectly rational.

TRNV 143: Odious Unifications: This actually opens up a lot of ideas for this in the idea of additional Discoveries. No comment.

TRNV 231: Equivalent Allocation: This is interesting, but I don't understand why you would create something called "Shift points" for this. Quite honestly, you could just make it say that you can move a number of ability scores points from one to another equal to 1/10th of the Handle Animal check used for it. On the topic of using Handle Animal, I concede that your association with it for this discipline means that I will change Psychomantics skill to Use Psionic Device. I do this for the reasons that I believe that there should never be a discipline sharing a skill with another discipline, however in the future I do believe that there will be sub-disciplines (principles within principles).

TRNV 280: Precise Vicissitude: Same as before, however decrease the ability score variation to 1/5th. I must ask that you add something else to make this Principle more appealing since it effectively feels that Magisterial principles for this Discipline are effectively the same principle twice. Perhaps at this level you become capable of applying this effect to the Undead and graft Construct traits to a living creature (making a Living Construct of sorts?).

TRNV 349: Unbalanced Appropriation: Finally getting Undead? At 14th level this is far too late for it to be of any legitimate use to any Gramarist. Like I said, this would be better suited for a Magisterial principle.

TRNV 399: Unhindered Transmorphosis: I do not believe that ALL creatures should be available to the study of Transvolution. Perhaps gaining an additional creature type by way of a Discovery? Everything else is fairly interesting since it allows for a level of greater design towards your end goal, however I feel that the previous principles should have lead up to this? Perhaps selecting certain traits over others to propagate to save a little bit more time. Hell, this can be done generational for superb breeding of a perfect specimen for your Goal. For example, in the above blueprint I'll be working on a Horse truly worthy for War for a Gramarist.

BY THE POWER OF SCIENCE, I HAVE A STEED THAT MIGHT ROAR ACROSS THE PLANES, ALLOWING ME TO LAY CONQUEST UPON THE WHOLE OF THE WORLDS AND END THE BLOOD WARS, DECLARING MYSELF TO BE THE ABSOLUTE EVIL! MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! :smallamused:

qazzquimby
2013-11-25, 08:20 PM
First, I'd actually use the type chart in the book, with the same modifiers to the Mutability DC (possibly rebalanced slightly). Use that to determine BAB, Saves, HD size and the like. It makes it more streamlined.

I agree that would be simpler and faster, and that was my initial plan, but I took my current way because it left more things up in the air during hybridization. By the type chart, if you combine an abberant and a construct, you will always get a construct, with all the features and BaB known when you set out. Following my current system though, the hybrid could come out with a combination of the traits of flesh and metal, which is both flavourful and adds to the variety of what they hybrid might be like. When I've been using it, I don't know if this will cause problems, but I've been considering the hybrid to be both types when type is specifically asked, but with its usually type determined traits determined separately. I think I prefer my system, but I do see the upsides to your recommendation. When I've got the time I'll put together the other version. Maybe fluff them as a disciplined doctor versus a mad scientist's work.

EDIT: I made a combination of an aboleth and a marut to see what would happen with the types. I got a marble aboleth that acted mostly like a construct, but had a soul (vulnerable to necromancy and can be raised from the dead), then a fleshy humanoid thing that has to be repaired for health, and then one that rolled construct all the way, but took the aboleth's psionic abilities and mucus.


Make it so later principles let you alter the type to one of the types of its donor or even another type. Like one that lets you perform pseudo-necromancy by turning the hybrid into an undead or applying a template. On that note, give an option to apply certain templates, like Winged, Reptilian, Skeleton, the Half templates, etc.

I'm actually have another discipline on the side which can give creatures templates as one of it's applications. I'd like to avoid giving Transvolution the ability to bestow templates because it can already give the traits found in templates, it would subtract from the theme of struggling to control the random changes, and to avoid stepping on the other discipline.


I'd also change the associated skill to Craft (Alchemy), Control Shape (that skill for inflicted lycanthropes), or even Use Rope (like you take strands of essence and tie them into special knots to get the hybrid just right with each principle being new knots you can use) or Appraise (determining the "value" of each trait and trying to adjust the value appropriately).

Good idea, handle animal was kind of egh. I'm currently torn between Craft (Alchemy) and Control Shape.


And lastly, give it some synergy by allowing it to fuse materials as well as creatures, so you could say, have a suit of mithril/adamantine armor that is both as light as mithril and as strong as adamantine, or a multi-material input/output.

That sounds good and probably not hard to implement. Flammable metal. Wood that melts. Paper with extreme hardness. Yes. If anyone else has an idea for something that could be hybridized, I want it.


One thing to add to edogrimshell's post. If it can fuse materials it should also be able to fuse materials with animals at some point. Hello adamantine skeleton.

Admantine (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Adamantine_Golem)+Skeleton (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm)


Before I make any criticism positive or negative, I've got to test the principles myself on a selective blueprint by itself. Before I do this, I need to know what disciplines this is supposed to work in conjunction with? Obviously it would be Biollurgy and, by association, everything else that works with Biollurgy, but I'm curious if their is anything else you have in mind.

I don't have much integration with the other disciplines, which is one of Transvolution's weaknesses right now. Adding metal hybridization should help it work with Alchemetry, but still it's fairly separate.

Arcanist
2013-11-25, 08:42 PM
I don't have much integration with the other disciplines, which is one of Transvolution's weaknesses right now. Adding metal hybridization should help it work with Alchemetry, but still it's fairly separate.

I worked on something to see what I could do to make the creature connect to the other disciplines :smallsmile:

EdroGrimshell
2013-11-25, 08:56 PM
I agree that would be simpler and faster, and that was my initial plan, but I took my current way because it left more things up in the air during hybridization. By the type chart, if you combine an abberant and a construct, you will always get a construct, with all the features and BaB known when you set out. Following my current system though, the hybrid could come out with a combination of the traits of flesh and metal, which is both flavourful and adds to the variety of what they hybrid might be like. When I've been using it, I don't know if this will cause problems, but I've been considering the hybrid to be both types when type is specifically asked, but with its usually type determined traits determined separately. I think I prefer my system, but I do see the upsides to your recommendation. When I've got the time I'll put together the other version. Maybe fluff them as a disciplined doctor versus a mad scientist's work.

I did say a Principle that allows you to alter the type. You could have it determined randomly with the other type as an augmented subtype. Other principles add the ability to alter the types further as secondary benefits at cost, give it an option. The struggle you have on this makes it unattractive as a discipline at the moment, removing that, while taking away some of the fluff, makes it more attractive as a discipline, bringing it on par with Biollurgy for its usefulness rather than being a weaker facsimile.

Maybe make it go randomly between three types, the chance to get one of the others as an augmented subtype so you still have some of that randomness, but it's not as difficult to implement.

Corwin Icewolf
2013-11-25, 09:16 PM
Admantine (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Adamantine_Golem)+Skeleton (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm)


-__-
...
...
YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT!

Although I suppose one would require only one more step to give a creature an adamantine skeleton.

So if this was done to sentient creatures would the originals die? Would one die while the other lives? Or would they be continuously fighting for control?

qazzquimby
2013-11-25, 11:02 PM
I did say a Principle that allows you to alter the type. You could have it determined randomly with the other type as an augmented subtype. Other principles add the ability to alter the types further as secondary benefits at cost, give it an option. The struggle you have on this makes it unattractive as a discipline at the moment, removing that, while taking away some of the fluff, makes it more attractive as a discipline, bringing it on par with Biollurgy for its usefulness rather than being a weaker facsimile.

Maybe make it go randomly between three types, the chance to get one of the others as an augmented subtype so you still have some of that randomness, but it's not as difficult to implement.

Is your issue with the way I'm determining type, or that I'm determining the traits that would be taken from the type separately? I'm confused why my system of breaking types down "makes it unattractive as a discipline" and "a weaker facsimile".

The downside as I see it, is hybridization takes longer, since there are more rolls. It shouldn't effect power at all though, nor does it make any major changes to the discipline. It's possible I've missed your point.

The augmented subtype hadn't even occurred to me, but fits perfectly. Thanks for the idea.


So if this was done to sentient creatures would the originals die? Would one die while the other lives? Or would they be continuously fighting for control?

I haven't put a lot of thought into this yet, but I've been handling important parts of personality as features. Its fairly free form so far, since there aren't rules for it. I might put each person's memories down, with an average as both their memories, then do the same with personality, with the average being some blend, or the fighting for control you mention. If they have some important quirk or racial personality trait, like a beholder's xenophobia, that would be listed separately rather than in a pair. In later principles, when you can guarantee features, you can hybridize yourself with something else and ensure your memory and personality gets through unscathed.



I love the horse.



For the below, please mention if you think I missed your point. These all very valuable suggestions.


Here I will be listing faults and recommendations towards making your Discipline work a bit more fluidly. These are just my opinions so take them as you will.

TRNV 101: Introduction to Transvolution: Before I begin on this principle, I would like to note that there is no listed Target for it like every other Principle.

Thanks, fixed.


Biolurigical Implants?: I believe you are referring to Xenoalchemic implants and grafts. There are no such things as Biollurgical implants. I'd make it specifically reference Xenoalchemy. In addition to this, give it limiting factors towards how many Grafts and implants that can be attached to a living creature. Perhaps using the requisite grades of the Grafts equal to the Graft level * 5 to construct a DC for applying it?

Biolurgical implants sounded like a thing that might exist, since people have made everything. I have it removed and have a section added to specify that the grafts still counted towards max grafts. Does that fix the problem? I'm not sure what the DC is for, the principle doesn't actually apply Grafts, just genetically internalize them.


You do not need to put a number value towards Fine and Colossal. The difference is completely self-evident.

The number is there so there can be a mathematical change to the DC. A skilled Transvolutionist should be able to combine mice and purple worms.


In addition to this, I would make the base DC equal 10 + any additional modifiers.

I changed it. I originally left out the 10 so the Transvolutionist could make very safe transformations with a mutability DC of 0, to ensure the hybrids survival. 10+ works better though.


Random traits?: Why are these traits even randomized? Why not just make it based on the alignment table? Always being a +2 towards that direction, Usually being a +1 towards that direction and so on and so forth.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Could you reexplain this please?


Physical appearances are important why?: It feels to me that you were trying to touch Hybridization TOO hard here to the point where you are placing mechanics on things that are not important in the slightest. Features such as Blindsight 60ft and Spell-like abilities are important because they have actual effects on the world. A creature's fur color? Not so much. Thereafter, lining up a creatures special traits on a table and rolling a d100 (50% chance) to determine which traits remain and which ones go in the final creature is perfectly rational.

This is very true, I'll make it clear that it's optional. In my experimentation when creating the system, the appearance was always the most interesting part, so it felt important while writing it. Mechanics are of course the core of the game, but blending a rat a human to make a pathetic hairless thing with the body of a man, but useless rat limbs, a human head but the face of a rat, only able to squeak, but with all the intelligence of a child, that's cool too.



TRNV 143: Odious Unifications: This actually opens up a lot of ideas for this in the idea of additional Discoveries. No comment.

Oh please comment.


TRNV 231: Equivalent Allocation: This is interesting, but I don't understand why you would create something called "Shift points" for this. Quite honestly, you could just make it say that you can move a number of ability scores points from one to another equal to 1/10th of the Handle Animal check used for it.

I should probably concede that you know what's best, but your system would act as a free buff, while the current version is an interesting give and take. You can give up some mutability for some extra control, or you can improve your creatures, but at cost of losing move hybrids.


On the topic of using Handle Animal, I concede that your association with it for this discipline means that I will change Psychomantics skill to Use Psionic Device. I do this for the reasons that I believe that there should never be a discipline sharing a skill with another discipline, however in the future I do believe that there will be sub-disciplines (principles within principles).


Don't change it on my account, I just changed the skill to Control Shape, as was recommended.


TRNV 280: Precise Vicissitude: Same as before, however decrease the ability score variation to 1/5th. I must ask that you add something else to make this Principle more appealing since it effectively feels that Magisterial principles for this Discipline are effectively the same principle twice. Perhaps at this level you become capable of applying this effect to the Undead and graft Construct traits to a living creature (making a Living Construct of sorts?).

Oddly, I saw 349 and 231 as too similar, but 280 is very important. The ability to guarantee a feature is some much needed control for the Transvolutionist, and makes hybridizing yourself viable for the first time.

I'll make undead free from 143. I hadn't meant depriving types to be a serious penalty on the discipline, just an additional benefit to getting higher leveled principles.


TRNV 349: Unbalanced Appropriation: Finally getting Undead? At 14th level this is far too late for it to be of any legitimate use to any Gramarist. Like I said, this would be better suited for a Magisterial principle.

Why is it not useful? Is the bonus to ability scores too small at higher levels? With low/0 mutability DC and a maximized skill, you can raise hybrids stats by 8, with no chance of death. If you have access to cheap resurrection somehow you can add several more onto that. Considering players are a valid option as donors, I was considering it closer to overpowered than underpowered.



TRNV 399: Unhindered Transmorphosis: I do not believe that ALL creatures should be available to the study of Transvolution. Perhaps gaining an additional creature type by way of a Discovery? Everything else is fairly interesting since it allows for a level of greater design towards your end goal, however I feel that the previous principles should have lead up to this? Perhaps selecting certain traits over others to propagate to save a little bit more time. Hell, this can be done generational for superb breeding of a perfect specimen for your Goal. For example, in the above blueprint I'll be working on a Horse truly worthy for War for a Gramarist.

I agree it should be more limited (punpuning is far too possible as is) but I couldn't think of a good restriction aside from.. ah.. DM's discretion..? Do you have any suggestions?

Arcanist
2013-11-26, 05:39 AM
I love the horse.

Glad I've pleased someone.


Biolurgical implants sounded like a thing that might exist, since people have made everything. I have it removed and have a section added to specify that the grafts still counted towards max grafts. Does that fix the problem? I'm not sure what the DC is for, the principle doesn't actually apply Grafts, just genetically internalize them.

Nope, they are all considered Xenoalchemy, which is from a different class entirely. And genetically internalizing them (which I suspect makes the graft take up no slot), would make it a wee-bit worse.


The number is there so there can be a mathematical change to the DC. A skilled Transvolutionist should be able to combine mice and purple worms.

The size difference between Fine to Colossal is 9 meaning it would add +9 to the DC. The difference between Fine and Diminutive is 1 meaning it would add +1 to the DC. The difference between Medium and Huge is 2 meaning it would add +2 to the DC. It's very obvious what it is supposed to mean without the use of numbers.



I'm not sure what you mean here. Could you reexplain this please?

A creature of "Always [Insert alignment]" Would cause the creatures alignment to go towards that alignment by 2 steps (From, say for example, Lawful Evil to True Neutral). Making this add up can cause a creature's entire alignment to change which would be fairly cool in my opinion.


This is very true, I'll make it clear that it's optional. In my experimentation when creating the system, the appearance was always the most interesting part, so it felt important while writing it. Mechanics are of course the core of the game, but blending a rat a human to make a pathetic hairless thing with the body of a man, but useless rat limbs, a human head but the face of a rat, only able to squeak, but with all the intelligence of a child, that's cool too.

If you want your creature to have a specific appearance, just let it have it. There is no mechanical benefit towards having 1,000 tentacles if you do not have a tentacle attack.



Oh please comment.

There is nothing for me to say towards that. Thus, I left no serious comment towards it beyond praise. I will admit that certain traits should for that should be left to Discoveries, but I've voiced that before. Nothing more, nothing less.


I should probably concede that you know what's best, but your system would act as a free buff, while the current version is an interesting give and take. You can give up some mutability for some extra control, or you can improve your creatures, but at cost of losing move hybrids.

It is effectively the same thing, there is just no shift points and it encourages the user to get a high skill check towards it. It rewards optimization and wit.



Don't change it on my account, I just changed the skill to Control Shape, as was recommended.

NAH! I changed it already. Handle Animal is up for grabs if anyone wants it.



Oddly, I saw 349 and 231 as too similar, but 280 is very important. The ability to guarantee a feature is some much needed control for the Transvolutionist, and makes hybridizing yourself viable for the first time.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the principle. It does seem rather redundant however due to the likely probability of mass hybridization.


I'll make undead free from 143. I hadn't meant depriving types to be a serious penalty on the discipline, just an additional benefit to getting higher leveled principles.

If you are going to specialize in the Disciplines, there is no purpose in making it reward the incredibly high probability that they will focus exclusively on getting those specialized principles that highly reward their previous specializations. That is why Psychomantics' networking features are only available for specialization.


Why is it not useful? Is the bonus to ability scores too small at higher levels? With low/0 mutability DC and a maximized skill, you can raise hybrids stats by 8, with no chance of death. If you have access to cheap resurrection somehow you can add several more onto that. Considering players are a valid option as donors, I was considering it closer to overpowered than underpowered.

Perhaps my choice of words was inappropriate. I should have stated that it should be obtainable at a lower level. It is not useless, it is just a little late towards boosting your options.



I agree it should be more limited (punpuning is far too possible as is) but I couldn't think of a good restriction aside from.. ah.. DM's discretion..? Do you have any suggestions?

I try to avoid using DM's discretion since most homebrew assumes that the DM is playing with them as is. DM's discretion is one of the many reasons why the Epic Spellcasting rules are one of the worst rules devised for 3rd edition.

qazzquimby
2013-11-26, 09:17 PM
Nope, they are all considered Xenoalchemy, which is from a different class entirely. And genetically internalizing them (which I suspect makes the graft take up no slot), would make it a wee-bit worse.

Grafts from outside the xenoalchemist class are considered xenoalchemy? I specifically stated the grafts still take up a slot, but I don't see how not doing that would make it worse. The first use of 101 was just meant to be a side feature to aid with breeding creatures.


The size difference between Fine to Colossal is 9 meaning it would add +9 to the DC. The difference between Fine and Diminutive is 1 meaning it would add +1 to the DC. The difference between Medium and Huge is 2 meaning it would add +2 to the DC. It's very obvious what it is supposed to mean without the use of numbers.

Well apparently some people have better memories than I. :smallbiggrin:
I personally would find that table pretty helpful I think, I don't know if everyone else is much more adept at size subtraction.


A creature of "Always [Insert alignment]" Would cause the creatures alignment to go towards that alignment by 2 steps (From, say for example, Lawful Evil to True Neutral). Making this add up can cause a creature's entire alignment to change which would be fairly cool in my opinion.

The current randomized system still causes the entire alignment to change most of the time, either by normalizing it between the two (angels and devils might end up feeling conflicted around the middle) or by putting it at any point between the two. Other things, by my interpretation of what you're saying, hybridizing two of the same sometimes lawful creature, would produce a creature that is always lawful, rather than a clone of the two. It also wouldn't fit with the theme of everything being unknown during generation, although that seems to matter more to me than anyone else.


If you want your creature to have a specific appearance, just let it have it. There is no mechanical benefit towards having 1,000 tentacles if you do not have a tentacle attack.

Is marking it as optional enough? If people want to cheat themselves their own images that's fine, but from all of my experience, coming up with a wide variation of freakish monstrosities is the most fun part of the discipline. If fluff is unimportant, how can optional fluff be bad?


Perhaps I am misunderstanding the principle. It does seem rather redundant however due to the likely probability of mass hybridization./QUOTE]

That's probably true. Hopefully more material generates, like the material hybridization, and I can add something to make the discipline more interesting.

[QUOTE]Perhaps my choice of words was inappropriate. I should have stated that it should be obtainable at a lower level. It is not useless, it is just a little late towards boosting your options.

Where would you put it? I'd gladly move it earlier, but that would leave a void where an important high leveled ability should go. I agree with many of people's criticisms on structure, but in most cases I think if I reorganized it would only make things worse.


I try to avoid using DM's discretion since most homebrew assumes that the DM is playing with them as is. DM's discretion is one of the many reasons why the Epic Spellcasting rules are one of the worst rules devised for 3rd edition.

That's why it was a last resort. By discovery? Only with creatures who have been previously used as donors?

Thanks again for all of the feedback. I shall learn and grow in my homebrewing abilities.

EdroGrimshell
2013-11-26, 09:45 PM
Would you mind me making my own take on this discipline? Mine would be closer to the Encyclopedia Arcane version and be less random.

qazzquimby
2013-11-26, 11:03 PM
That's a good idea, go ahead. The things that make the discipline for me don't seem to be optimal for others, so you can probably make a more successful version. If you add any new concepts, do you mind if I nab them?

EdroGrimshell
2013-11-26, 11:51 PM
That's a good idea, go ahead. The things that make the discipline for me don't seem to be optimal for others, so you can probably make a more successful version. If you add any new concepts, do you mind if I nab them?

I don't mind at all! Mine will be posted under a different name: Evolography

Arcanist
2013-11-28, 12:32 AM
I am so sorry that I am replying so late. I saw your comment and my desire to procrastinate took hold of me :smallfrown:



Grafts from outside the xenoalchemist class are considered xenoalchemy? I specifically stated the grafts still take up a slot, but I don't see how not doing that would make it worse. The first use of 101 was just meant to be a side feature to aid with breeding creatures.

OH... No. They are not. Grafts from outside of the Xenoalchemist class are considered just Grafts. I apologize, the general consensus when referring to grafts and Gramarie is that you are using Xenoalchemy. Why not just allow the finished product of any genetic project (which is what I am not using in reference to your Discipline) to have a number of Xenoalchemy grafts equal to 1/10th of the skill check used to complete the project up to a level equal to 1/4th of your total ranks in Change Shape. Perhaps it is just me, but I believe that a Discipline should be more dependent on the skill to make it more useful. Kind of why I've lost some love for Eldrikinetics.




Well apparently some people have better memories than I. :smallbiggrin:
I personally would find that table pretty helpful I think, I don't know if everyone else is much more adept at size subtraction.

If you truly desire for a table to be there, I offer you one.

{table=head]Size|Modifier
Fine|+1/-1
Diminutive| +2/-2
Tiny| +3/-3
Small| +4/-4
Medium| +5/-5
Large| +6/-6
Huge| +7/-7
Garganuan| +8/-8
Colossal| +9/-9
[/table]


I should probably make a table for alignment shifts as well, although I do believe that alignment should be a raised feature.

{table=head]|Chaotic|Neutral|Lawful
Good|Chaotic Good|Neutral Good|Lawful Good
Neutral|Chaotic Neutral|True Neutral|Lawful Neutral
Evil|Chaotic Evil|Neutral Evil|Lawful Evil[/table]
Note 1: All creatures begin with their alignment defaulted as True Neutral
Note 2: Creatures with "always" alignments move the creature's alignment two alignment shifts towards that alignment, while "usually" alignments move the creature's alignment one alignment shift towards that alignment.


The current randomized system still causes the entire alignment to change most of the time, either by normalizing it between the two (angels and devils might end up feeling conflicted around the middle) or by putting it at any point between the two.

That is perfectly acceptable. Fusing an always "Lawful Good" creature with a an always "Chaotic Evil" creature, you will no doubt get a True Neutral creature. I believe that the base assumption is that the creature's default alignment is True Neutral and ancestors will influence their current alignment. For example, my Magitek-Bred Horse would begin as a True Neutral creature, however due to having the following creatures applied: A Cauchemar, a Nymph, an Efreeti, a Pit Fiend and a Warmaker of at least 21st level

Effectively you take an always Neutral Evil movement +2 (Nightmare; changing the creatures alignment to Neutral Evil), the Usually Chaotic Good movement +1 (Nymph; changing the creatures alignment to Chaotic Evil OR back to True Neutral), the always Lawful Evil movement +2 (Efreeti; changing the creatures alignment to Neutral Evil or Lawful Evil), the Lawful Evil movement +2 (Pit Fiend; Changing the creatures to Lawful Evil if it wasn't already).

An alternative would be using the base creature's alignment as the beginning point on the grid.


Other things, by my interpretation of what you're saying, hybridizing two of the same sometimes lawful creature, would produce a creature that is always lawful, rather than a clone of the two. It also wouldn't fit with the theme of everything being unknown during generation, although that seems to matter more to me than anyone else.

I'd like to point out that cloning SHOULD be a Theory associated with this Discipline. Having said that, I answered your question to this above.


Is marking it as optional enough? If people want to cheat themselves their own images that's fine, but from all of my experience, coming up with a wide variation of freakish monstrosities is the most fun part of the discipline. If fluff is unimportant, how can optional fluff be bad?

If it is optional, than it is fine. I've no problem with the text being fluff. Just make sure to emphasize the mechanics over the fluff. :smallsmile:


That's probably true. Hopefully more material generates, like the material hybridization, and I can add something to make the discipline more interesting.

If you don't mind, I would be charmed if you would accepted some suggestions for some Discoveries :smallsmile:

... Wow, reading that back to myself it is incredibly condescending... :smallconfused: Sorry if it sounds like that...


Where would you put it? I'd gladly move it earlier, but that would leave a void where an important high leveled ability should go. I agree with many of people's criticisms on structure, but in most cases I think if I reorganized it would only make things worse.

That is why I believe it should be obtainable as a Discovery. I can't seem to find where it specifies what creature types TRVN 101 cannot specify, so I just decided to do what I figured would be best.


Common Ancestry: Similar morphology? Interesting. You've successfully found gene markers that would denote a common ancestry between all organic life across the cosmos. This Discovery allows you hybridize two creatures of two different living creature (non-Undead, non-Construct) types, however the DC for performing such an effort increases the DC by 1 for each HD the two creatures have different.

Inorganic Transvolution: Although inorganic and undead creatures do not transevolve in the sense that most organic and living organisms would, it is possible to implant enough organic material to allow the creature to perform something similar to organic transvolution. This allows you to hybridize Construct and Undead creatures as well, however these creatures must have grafts attached to them before this can be done.


That's why it was a last resort. By discovery? Only with creatures who have been previously used as donors?

The capstone Principle should allow the designer to control all of the factors in the breeding procedure from appearance to legitimate abilities. It should be... Well for lack of a better term Intelligent Design.


Thanks again for all of the feedback. I shall learn and grow in my homebrewing abilities.

Homebrewing does not require any skill, common sense, or intelligence. Hell, I can do it so that must testify to how easy it is :smallsmile:

I'm kind of glad that I've started an avalanche of Discipline craft for Gramarie... I'd like to thank my Mom, Carl Sagan, The Doctor, Kellus and most of all... YOU :smallredface:

qazzquimby
2013-11-28, 07:09 PM
I am so sorry that I am replying so late. I saw your comment and my desire to procrastinate took hold of me

I'm glad you're replying at all :smallsmile: (your apology is accepted :smalltongue:)


Why not just allow the finished product of any genetic project (which is what I am not using in reference to your Discipline) to have a number of Xenoalchemy grafts equal to 1/10th of the skill check used to complete the project up to a level equal to 1/4th of your total ranks in Change Shape. Perhaps it is just me, but I believe that a Discipline should be more dependent on the skill to make it more useful. Kind of why I've lost some love for Eldrikinetics.

I believe I'll shamelessly steal that, almost word for word. It works on a single creature, rather than as part of hybridization, and applies available grafts to the creature.


If you truly desire for a table to be there, I offer you one.

Oh joy :smallsmile: thank you. I'm still at the point where table making is painfully complex and confusing. Ehm.. How do I get the code for the tables?


Keeping the alignment system as I have it doesn't have any major downsides, and is easier to learn, since it's generated the same way everything else is. I don't see why alignment should be always controlled by the Transvolutionist or always averaged, when every other part of the creature is normally determined randomly and in reference to the mutability DC. Your system definitely works, but I'm not sure a new system is worth replacing two die rolls.


If you don't mind, I would be charmed if you would accepted some suggestions for some Discoveries


Yes yes I can't have too many ideas!


... Wow, reading that back to myself it is incredibly condescending... Sorry if it sounds like that...


I don't read condescension in that at all. I don't even see where you read it from. I feel like I sound whiny when reading my posts (mostly when refusing people's ideas) so hopefully that is equally imagined.


Common Ancestry
Restricting people to single type hybridization till level 8 sounds too cruel. I'll make it so in 143 you're able to make hybridizations between groups of types. Humanoid and Monstrous humanoid. Animal, Magical beast, and vermin.
Elemental, Outsider and Aberrant maybe? Then 147 will open things a bit more, probably by clumping the more similar groups together, so dogmen can exist. The common Ancestry discovery will open things up far more, with only the nonliving suckers excluded from the fun.



Inorganic Transvolution
Nice verbing with "transevolve." I'll make sure to credit you for all of your additions.

One thing I'm doing. You can always transvolve creatures of the same type, whether they're oozes or constructs, you just can't combine them with any other types. This was always technically possible, but I think it wasn't obvious in the rules.


The capstone Principle should allow the designer to control all of the factors in the breeding procedure from appearance to legitimate abilities. It should be... Well for lack of a better term Intelligent Design.

That's what the ability already does. It requires quite a bit of skill, but you can shape the creature however you like, without having to worry about making a chaotic mess. I think the problem with being able to combine any creature is taken care of, since it now requires discoveries to do so.


I'm kind of glad that I've started an avalanche of Discipline craft for Gramarie... I'd like to thank my Mom, Carl Sagan, The Doctor, Kellus and most of all... YOU

Gramariecraft is the second best thing there is, right after Gramarie.

EdroGrimshell
2013-11-29, 10:46 PM
I'm going to let you know a few of the principles I'll be using for my version of this discipline:

1) I'll be using a Value that's determined by the differences in the creatures just as you are, but I'll use it for more than just the DC of the check (See below)

2) The Value determines the cost of the fusion in Ebbs as well as how many preparations are needed.

3) The Value will determine how dangerous a fusion is and set a percentage for a chance of failure/defect.

4) The Danger factor will come with a potential for feedback, which could destroy a heuristic circuit and the components or even harming the one preparing the fusion if things get bad enough. Essentially, if you roll to low compared to the Value, you could end up causing a lot of damage.

These are just the main ones

qazzquimby
2013-11-30, 11:23 AM
I added objects and weapons to the list of things that can be smashed together to make a new thing.

Arcanist
2013-12-02, 04:29 AM
I'm glad you're replying at all :smallsmile: (your apology is accepted :smalltongue:)

More of me procrastinating! Except my excuse is school getting in the way... Curse you school! CURSE YOU!!!!


I believe I'll shamelessly steal that, almost word for word. It works on a single creature, rather than as part of hybridization, and applies available grafts to the creature.

Perfection :smallamused:


Oh joy :smallsmile: thank you. I'm still at the point where table making is painfully complex and confusing. Ehm.. How do I get the code for the tables?


making tables is effectively:

[ table = head] factor 1 | factor 2 | factor 3
stuff about factor 1 | stuff about factor 2 | stuff about factor 3
[/ table]

Just remove the spaces.



Keeping the alignment system as I have it doesn't have any major downsides, and is easier to learn, since it's generated the same way everything else is. I don't see why alignment should be always controlled by the Transvolutionist or always averaged, when every other part of the creature is normally determined randomly and in reference to the mutability DC. Your system definitely works, but I'm not sure a new system is worth replacing two die rolls.

I'm going to be blunt with you: I hate the alignment system. Not your system, but any alignment system. I liked it when I was a kid, but now? Not so much. The only thing D&D offers is that you now have 9 different forms of play instead of 2 forms of play like in Fable.



Yes yes I can't have too many ideas!

Trust me, with this system you can... And it gets... devastating... Mostly to the campaign setting :smalltongue:


I don't read condescension in that at all. I don't even see where you read it from. I feel like I sound whiny when reading my posts (mostly when refusing people's ideas) so hopefully that is equally imagined.

The reason why I read my comments like that is because I talk incredibly condescending to everyone I meet in real life without actually meaning it. I swear, even the way I stand looks like I'm looking down on people. I have a friken family of giants and I'm the family midget.


Restricting people to single type hybridization till level 8 sounds too cruel.

Perhaps we could use the superseding creature type pyramid to see which creatures can cross breed with each other without too much trouble. It would certainly make it much more comprehensible. As it stands, it effectively throws the obvious basis of, what I am assuming is, evolutionary theory and gene splicing out the window. Baccalaureate principles are supposed to be world changing. Things that in our world are only infantile in their study. Your baccalaureate principles should not allow you to effectively hybridize every creature together to get the perfect creature, through the generational method (lol artificial selection; thinking back that probably would have been a better name for the Undead and Construct Discovery...)


I'll make it so in 143 you're able to make hybridizations between groups of types. Humanoid and Monstrous humanoid. Animal, Magical beast, and vermin. Elemental, Outsider and Aberrant maybe?

Perhaps Humanoid, Monstrous, Animal and Magical Beast at first and then adding more and more things thereafter in the form of discoveries. Like I said, I don't think you should be allowing people to just manipulate artificial selection to just breed whatever, in the perfect state.


Nice verbing with "transevolve." I'll make sure to credit you for all of your additions.

Ehhh... Don't add the credit throughout the discipline, add it towards the end in a small little "thank you" or something.


One thing I'm doing. You can always transvolve creatures of the same type, whether they're oozes or constructs, you just can't combine them with any other types. This was always technically possible, but I think it wasn't obvious in the rules.

It was indeed self-evident :smalltongue:



That's what the ability already does. It requires quite a bit of skill, but you can shape the creature however you like, without having to worry about making a chaotic mess. I think the problem with being able to combine any creature is taken care of, since it now requires discoveries to do so.

No, no I understand. It's not problematic and I like it a lot, however there is very little to lead up to it. I'm starting to think that it should be similar like this:

When determining which creatures traits pass on, roll along the table

|Creature #1|Creature #2
Size/Type|—|—
Hit Dice|—|—
Speed|—|—
Armor Bonuses|—|—
Special Attacks|—|—
Special Qualities|—|—
Saves|—|—
Abilities|—|—
Skills|—|—
Feats|—|—
Environment|—|—


With a 50% for each creature

Certain principles allow you to select to increase the probability of certain traits appearing by 25% or allow the user to select certain traits that WILL pass on, OR both :smallbiggrin:

Milo v3
2013-12-05, 12:36 AM
Control Shape is the name of the Skill.

Also, TRNV 143 should have 101 as prerequisite.