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Rogue Shadows
2013-11-26, 09:55 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ee/Zatanna-hughes.png
Do you believe in magic?

Having recently binged on The Prestige, The Illusionist, Now You See Me, and Oz the Great and Powerful, I've become rather intrigued with the idea of creating a Magician class - a class that by all appearances can perform amazing feats of magic, but in fact is merely using smoke a mirrors, misdirection, and other acts of legerdemain to achieve its effects. The key here is that while the Magician may be able to duplicate some spell effects, they never cast spells. In fact, ideally, they don't even use supernatural or spell-like abilities. Everything is achieved via extraordinary abilities.

Now, of course, these abilities can do things that are utterly impossible in the real world, such as, for example, opening a locked door by simply revealing that one was in fact on the other side of the locked door the entire time. And gaining some supernatural or spell-like abilities isn't completely out of the question. However, the magician should remain focused on doing the seemingly magical through mundane means.

The Magician is not meant to replace the wizard or sorcerer or other spell-casting classes. Indeed, it ideally should feel much more like a rogue than anything else, and fill a similar slot in the party (or really, more the bard's slot) by providing a character geared more towards social interaction and skill usage than combat. Though it should have some neat combat tricks as well.

I'm running into a little bit of difficulty, though, so, I'm here for help in constructing it. Any ideas welcome! Here's what I have so far.

Things changed or added based on your suggestions will be in red.

Hit Die: d8
Skill Points Per Level: 6 + Int modifier
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), and Swim (Str)

Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Magician's trick, nothing up my sleeves
2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+3|Evasion, presto
3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+3|Magician's trick, now I'm here (standard action)
4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Uncanny dodge
5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Magician's trick, set the stage
6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+5|
7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+5|Magician's trick
8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+6|
+6|Improved uncanny dodge
9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+6|Improved evasion, magician's trick
10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+7|
+7|Now I'm here (move action)
11th|
+8/+3|
+3|
+7|
+7|Magician's trick
12th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+8|
13th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+8|Magician's trick
14th|
+10/+5|
+4|
+9|
+9|
15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+9|
+9|Magician's trick
16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+10|
17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+10|Magician's trick
18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+11|
19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+11|Magician's trick
20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+12|

Class Features
The following are class features of the magician
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Magicians are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Magicianís Trick (Ex): A magician always has some kind of trick up her sleeves. At 1st level and every two levels thereafter, the magician gains a trick. These tricks can seem magical or supernatural, but in fact all are accomplished simply by misdirection, smoke and mirrors, and extraordinary ability. Some tricks grant the magician unique talents or abilities, while others improve the abilities she already possesses.

Unless otherwise specified, a magician canít select a trick more than once.

Charlatan: A magician with this trick is likeable when she needs to be, and can fool anyone into doing anything. She may add half her magician level (rounded down) to Bluff and Diplomacy checks.

Cold Read: A magician with this trick is good at sizing up potential volunteers Ė or victims. She may add half her magician level to Perception and Sense Motive checks.

Legerdemain: A magician with this trick has fine fingers and is skilled at manual misdirection and fooling the untrained Ė or trained Ė eye. She may add half her magician level to Perform and Sleight of Hand checks.

Look Deep Into My Eyes: The magician can use this trick to hypnotize targets through nothing more than the power of her voice and the intensity of her stare. This functions like the spell hypnotism, except as noted here. The creatures affected receive a Will save, with a DC of 10 + Ĺ the magicianís level + the magicianís Charisma modifier. The magician may hypnotize a total Hit Dice of creatures equal to 1d4 per two magician levels, to a maximum of 10d4 at 20th level.

Master of Disguise: A magician with this trick can fool anybody into thinking she is anybody Ė all a part of the show. She may add half her magician level to Disguise and Linguistics checks.

Master of Escape: A magician with this trick is good at escaping from sticky situations. She may add half her magician level to Disable Device and Escape Artist checks.

Nothing In My Hat: The magician can use her Nothing Up My Sleeves ability to produce magical items, including weapons, wands, and wondrous items. She still faces the same price restrictions, however. The magician must be at least 7th level to select this trick.

Now Iím There: The magician may use her Now Iím Here ability to translocate into any square within range, regardless of whether or not the magician has line-of-sight. The location must still physically exist, however. This allows a magician, for example, to reveal themselves as being on the other side of a locked door, across a gaping chasm, or elsewhere that seems utterly impossible. The magician must be at least 7th level to select this trick.

Now You See Me, Now You Donít: A magician with this trick is an expert in the art of disappearance. She may use the Hide skill, even if being directly observed, as long as she has some method of somehow blocking line-of-sight from those who would observe her, even for a second Ė anything from quickly dashing behind a wall, ducking behind a tower shield, or even simply pulling her cloak over herself. A magician must be of at least 7th level to select this trick.

Parlor Tricks: A magician with this talent can perform a number of simple tricks to amaze and astound. She may use the spells ghost sound, mage hand, and prestidigitation at-will as a Sorcerer of equal level. As with all magicianís tricks, however, these tricks are accomplished through extraordinary, not magical, means.

So Close: The magician can use her now Iím here ability to turn aside potential blows. A number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier, the magician can as a reaction make a Stealth check against an incoming attack roll. If the result of the Stealth check is equal to or greater than the incoming attack, the magician may immediately use her Now Iím Here ability to translocate herself, taking no damage from the attack. The magician must be of at least 10th level to select this trick.

Something From Nothing: The magician can use her Nothing Up My Sleeves ability to produce larger items than seem possible. The magician may carry any item on her person as long as its size category does not exceed her own. This allows her to produce, for example, a ten-foot pole, a heavy crossbow, an unlikely length of cloths tied together, and so on. The magician must be at least 5th level to select this trick.

Nothing Up My Sleeves (Ex): The magician always has a little something extra on her person. Beginning at 1st level, whenever the magician is in a city, town, or other location wherein she could stock up on supplies, she may invest up to 100 gp per class level to acquire unspecified gear. This gear can be any kind of gear that can reasonably fit into a backpack, including potions and scrolls (but not any other sort of magic item), but it may weigh no more than 10 pounds. As a full-round action, the magician may dig through her pockets to retrieve an item she specifies at that time, deducting its value from the allocated amount of cost. When the total remaining cost reaches 0, the magician can retrieve no more items until she refills her sleeves by spending a few hours and an amount of gold to bring her total back up to 100 gp per class level.

In addition, if she takes 1 hour to pack her gear each day, the magician gains a +4 bonus to Strength to determine her light encumbrance. This does not affect her maximum carrying capacity. The efficient distribution of weight simply encumbers less than the same amount of weight normally should. Finally, the magician gains a +4 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal small objects on her person.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a magician can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the magician is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless magician does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Presto (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, the magician becomes able to produce items from their person as if by magic. She gains the Quick Draw feat for free. However, unlike normal, she may draw alchemical items, potions, scrolls, wands, and wondrous items as a free action as well. Finally, whenever the magician is subject to an attack, she may make a Sleight of Hand check. If her check result equals or exceeds the incoming attack roll, she may draw an item and use it as a reaction. This includes drawing and attacking with a weapon, drawing and drinking a potion, drawing and activating a wand, and so on. This reaction is resolved before the incoming attack roll.

There is no limit to the number of times per day that a Magician may use Presto, but she may only use it if she has at least one attack of opportunity available to her in the round. Using Presto does not itself, however, count as an attack of opportunity.

Now Iím Here (Ex): The magician has the extraordinary ability to appear in places that she really shouldnít be. Beginning at 3rd level, with a successful Hide check against all observers, the magician can translocate a number of squares equal to her magician class level, as long as it is within line of sight. This is not a teleportation effect Ė the magician was in fact in the other location the entire time, and has only revealed this fact now. The magician can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. Using this ability is a standard action until 10th level, when it instead becomes a move action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a magician can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A magician with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.

If a magician already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Set the Stage (Ex): The magician is at her best when she has had time to prepare a given area for magic. If a magician of at least 5th level has at least 15 minutes to prepare a given area (a room, a stage, a grassy field, etc.) for her magic, she receives a bonus to all her skill checks equal to her magician class level while in that area for the next hour. Further, the amount of time required to prepare an area for magic decreases by 1 minute at 6th level and every magician level thereafter, to a minimum of 1 minute at 19th level.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A magician of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.

This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the magician by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.

If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum magician level required to flank the character.

Improved Evasion (Ex): This works like evasion, except that while the magician still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless magician does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

stack
2013-11-26, 11:23 AM
Take a look here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15284446&postcount=362), see if any of it helps. Its something I did for Rizban's E6 material. The focus on UMD and the ability to fake real casting when using items are the core, though overall its a masterful item user. I especially like the personal extra-dimensional storage, but that may not fit your concept.

JoshuaZ
2013-11-26, 02:30 PM
You may want to consider giving them some number of skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel as a bonus, or adopt something similar, since many of them would fit thematically and practically.

Rogue Shadows
2013-11-26, 04:03 PM
You may want to consider giving them some number of skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel as a bonus, or adopt something similar, since many of them would fit thematically and practically.

Hmm, good idea.


The focus on UMD and the ability to fake real casting when using items are the core, though overall its a masterful item user.

I wanted to avoid focusing on Use Magic Device too much (and indeed to make sure that I wasn't tempted, I didn't even give it UMD as a class skill). Still, I'll have a look-see.


I especially like the personal extra-dimensional storage, but that may not fit your concept.

Well, not strictly speaking, but it does actually already have the ability to produce items that could fit into a backpack from nowhere, simply assuming that the Magician in fact always had the items (something I stole from the Pathfinder Chronicler); and one magician's trick upgrades this to be any item at all as long as the item is the same size category as you or smaller.

So, for example, a tower shield.

JoshuaZ
2013-11-26, 07:07 PM
Hmm, good idea.


In that case, it may make sense to pick one up at each even level (to complement the Magician's trick class feature), and have any gained not count against the usual limit on the number of skill tricks you may have, and I would suggest to make it easier to qualify for them (because many require a lot of skill ranks) that you can treat your total ranks in any skill as 3 higher than it actually is for qualifying for skill tricks. Also, Realms of Chaos has a large bunch of Skill Tricks that are well done which can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171328). The collapse of some skills in pathfinder will also help this slightly.

KitsuneBoxing
2013-11-26, 07:33 PM
Now Iím Here (Ex): The magician has the extraordinary ability to appear in places that she really shouldnít be. Beginning at 3rd level, with a successful Hide check against all observers, the magician can translocate a number of squares equal to her magician class level, as long as it is within line of sight. This is not a teleportation effect Ė the magician was in fact in the other location the entire time, and has only revealed this fact now. The magician can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. Using this ability is a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

This is a very useful ability outide of combat, especially with the "now i'm there" trick, later on, but in my opinion it's not good enough for use in a combat scenario. I personaly don't think it should be a full round action, i think it should be a standard action, possibly changing to a move action at higher level. Also, i don't think it should provoke an attack of opportunity, firstly because i don't think it would be overpowered to be able to do it without one, but also because it makes little sense to reveal yourself to actually be somewhere else, but still be hit in the place where you actually weren't.

With these changes it would be a very good ability, but not too good i don't think, especially since it's a defensive one, rather than an offensive.

Also, it would be fun to, at a later point, have other abilites that add to this one, such as revealing that you where not actually there when the enemy just stabbed you, and thereby ignoring the damage. I don't know exactly how i would balance that, but it would certainly be possible, and it would feel very cool to do.

Great job by the way, this is exacrly the sort of class that i like!

JoshuaZ
2013-11-26, 08:17 PM
[QUOTE=KitsuneBoxing;16504160]This is a very useful ability outide of combat, especially with the "now i'm there" trick, later on, but in my opinion it's not good enough for use in a combat scenario. I personaly don't think it should be a full round action, i think it should be a standard action, possibly changing to a move action at higher level. Also, i don't think it should provoke an attack of opportunity, firstly because i don't think it would be overpowered to be able to do it without one, but also because it makes little sense to reveal yourself to actually be somewhere else, but still be hit in the place where you actually weren't.

With these changes it would be a very good ability, but not too good i don't think, especially since it's a defensive one, rather than an offensive.

Also, it would be fun to, at a later point, have other abilites that add to this one, such as revealing that you where not actually there when the enemy just stabbed you, and thereby ignoring the damage. I don't know exactly how i would balance that, but it would certainly be possible, and it would feel very cool to do./QUOTE]

Ooh, I like this especially the last bit. Maybe at some level, once an encounter one can when attacked as an immediate action make a hide check opposed by the attack roll to use the ability and thus negate the attack? It might make sense to rule that one can only use that ability if one has not yet been attacked or targeted in any way that round (to prevent weirdness like the first two attacks working and then the next attack it turning out you are elsewhere).

KitsuneBoxing
2013-11-26, 08:48 PM
Ooh, I like this especially the last bit. Maybe at some level, once an encounter one can when attacked as an immediate action make a hide check opposed by the attack roll to use the ability and thus negate the attack? It might make sense to rule that one can only use that ability if one has not yet been attacked or targeted in any way that round (to prevent weirdness like the first two attacks working and then the next attack it turning out you are elsewhere).

Yes, something like that. I would probably make it along these lines: At level 8 (or whatever), once per encounter (or whatever) when you are attacked by an enemy you can spend an immediate action to make a stealth check opposed to the enemy's attack roll. If this roll is successful, you must start your next turn by using the "now i'm here" ability to move somewhere else in wich case you ignore the enemy's attack. This ability can only be used to ignore one attack and if the enemy hits you with more than that during its' turn then it does not work at all. At level 14 (or whatever) you can use this ability to ignore two attacks.

So it would be basically what you said but it would require the actual use of the "now i'm here" ability. I don't know though, not saying that's the perfect way of doing it either.

Rogue Shadows
2013-11-26, 10:28 PM
With these changes it would be a very good ability, but not too good i don't think, especially since it's a defensive one, rather than an offensive.

Good ideas; incorporated. I'll also add the move-action version at...10th level, you think? And the combat reaction version will be a trick, selectable beginning at 10th level. Both will be added to the post above forthwith.

Not a fan of per-encounter abilities in 3.5, though. I'm picky like that. 3+STAT/day is usually enough anyway.

Hmm. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to plunder Spycraft 1.0, see if there's anything to be pulled from that.

Also, this class needs a capstone.

KitsuneBoxing
2013-11-27, 07:51 AM
Good ideas; incorporated. I'll also add the move-action version at...10th level, you think?

Yes, that sounds appropriate. Could even be a bit earlier probably (8 or something). But 10 is good, definately not too early.


And the combat reaction version will be a trick, selectable beginning at 10th level.

Hurrah!

As far as the tricks go, what i would like to see are more of them that can be used as active abilities, rather than giving constant bonuses. What you want from a magician is to be able to perform crazy tricks, after all. Also, i wouldn't be afraid of making them quite good, since you get so few of them anyway.

Not saying you weren't planning this, i'm sure you where, and of course you gotta start somewhere. Just saying that crazy tricks that work wonderfully in specific situations, or a few times a day, is what would primarily attract me to the class. Although it certainly needs its' more rogue like abilities as well.

KitsuneBoxing
2013-11-27, 02:38 PM
Presto (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, the magician becomes able to produce items from their person as if by magic. They gain the Quick Draw feat for free. However, unlike normal, they may draw alchemical items, potions, scrolls, wands, and wondrous items as a free action as well. Finally, whenever the magician is subject to an attack, they may make a Sleight of Hand check. If their check result equals or exceeds the incoming attack roll, they may draw an item and use it as a reaction. This includes drawing and attacking with a weapon (if allowed an attack of opportunity), drawing and drinking a potion, drawing and activating a wand, and so on. This reaction is resolved before the incoming attack roll.

I can see some problems with this one, and i have some questions.

First of all, what does "if allowed an attack of opportunity" mean? Does it mean that if you have attacks of opportunities left to make during that round you can attack? I don't understand.

Second, as far as i understand the ability now, if an enemy walks up to me and makes three attacks, and i can match its' rolls with sleight of hand checks (which is very easy, skills can be made higher than attack bonuses), then i can cast three spells at that enemy using a wand (or possibly attack it three times, depending on the answer to my question above), and still have my entire turn open to do other stuff. This is a bit much, i would say.

I would at least limit it to being used once per round, using an immediate action. But quite frankly even that is too good. To once per round be able to attack, wandcast or drink a poition as an immediate action is increadibly dangerous and good. As far as the wands are concearned, that's basically giving a character quicken spell as a free metamagic feat to all his/her wand spells.

If that ability is only usable a certain number of times per day, however (say your charisma modifier times per day) than it is still very good, but much more reasonable.

Maybe i don't understand the ability? And these are just my opinions of course, but messing with the action economy is always dangerous.

Legendxp
2013-11-27, 11:52 PM
I'm making a class very much similar to this, except with spell-like abilities. You may borrow some ideas from it if you want. Click Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16309334)

Whiskey-Jack
2013-12-03, 02:50 PM
So I was really interested in this class, and I took it and made some changes I thought were appropriate. Basically I changed some text of the magician tricks and presto, and added a level 20 capstone power and a small sneak attack. This is actually my first post on GitP so i'm sorry if i destroy some forum protocols. I made it a little more powerful so that I think it is on par with the pathfinder characters more or less, but please let me know what you think! Thanks Rogue in the Shadows for starting a great idea!!


So I can't figure out a way to make the graph look nice, so im just gonna post the specials. The BAB and saves are of the same progression as Rogue in the Shadows' original post.

1st Magician's trick, nothing up my sleeves
2nd Evasion, presto, sneak attack 1d6,
3rd Magician's trick, now I'm here (standard action)
4th Uncanny dodge
5th Magician's trick
6th Sneak attack 2d6, set the stage
7th Magician's trick,
8th Now I'm here (move action)
9th Improved evasion, magician's trick
10th Sneak attack 3d6
11th Magician's trick
12th
13th Magician's trick
14th Sneak attack 4d6, Now Iím here (swift action)
15th Magician's trick
16th
17th Magician's trick
18th Sneak attack 5d6
19th Magician's trick
20th Now Iím here (free action), Nothing up my sleeves (free action)


Hit Die: d8
Skill Points Per Level: 6 + Int modifier
Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), and Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), Use Rope (Dex)


Class Features
The following are class features of the magician

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Magicians are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Magicianís Trick (Ex): A magician always has some kind of trick up her sleeves. At 1st level and every two levels thereafter, the magician gains a trick. These tricks can seem magical or supernatural, but in fact all are accomplished simply by misdirection, smoke and mirrors, and extraordinary ability. Some tricks grant the magician unique talents or abilities, while others improve the abilities she already possesses.

Unless otherwise specified, a magician canít select a trick more than once.

Charlatan: A magician with this trick is likeable when she needs to be, and can fool anyone into doing anything. She may add half her magician level (rounded down) to Bluff and Diplomacy checks.

Cold Read: A magician with this trick is good at sizing up potential volunteers Ė or victims. She may add half her magician level to Perception and Sense Motive checks.

Legerdemain: A magician with this trick has fine fingers and is skilled at manual misdirection and fooling the untrained Ė or trained Ė eye. She may add half her magician level to Perform and Sleight of Hand checks.

Look Deep Into My Eyes: The magician can use this trick to hypnotize targets through nothing more than the power of her voice and the intensity of her stare. This functions like the spell hypnotism, except as noted here. The creatures affected receive a Will save, with a DC of 10 + Ĺ the magicianís level + the magicianís Charisma modifier. The magician may hypnotize a total Hit Dice of creatures equal to 1d4 per two magician levels, to a maximum of 10d4 at 20th level.

Master of Disguise: A magician with this trick can fool anybody into thinking she is anybody Ė all a part of the show. She may act as if using the spell disguise self, but this is a non-magical effect. Putting on a disguise is a full-round action, displaying the magicianís uncanny skill at appearing as another person.

Master of Escape: A magician with this trick is good at escaping from sticky situations. She may add half her magician level to Disable Device and Escape Artist checks. If the Magician escapes from bonds or a grapple successfully, she may as an immediate action use her Now Iím here ability to teleport somewhere else. She may also escape normally though.

Nothing In My Hat: The magician can use her Nothing Up My Sleeves ability to produce magical items, including weapons, wands, and wondrous items. She still faces the same price restrictions, however. The magician must be at least 7th level to select this trick.

Now Iím There: The magician may use her Now Iím Here ability to translocate into any square within range, regardless of whether or not the magician has line-of-sight. The location must still physically exist, however. This allows a magician, for example, to reveal themselves as being on the other side of a locked door, across a gaping chasm, or elsewhere that seems utterly impossible. The magician must be at least 7th level to select this trick.

Now You See Me, Now You Donít: A magician with this trick is an expert in the art of disappearance. She may use the stealth skill, even if being directly observed, as long as she has some method of somehow blocking line-of-sight from those who would observe her, even for a second Ė anything from quickly dashing behind a wall, ducking behind a tower shield, or even simply pulling her cloak over herself. A magician must be of at least 7th level to select this trick. This generally functions as the Hide in Plain Sight ability.

Parlor Tricks: A magician with this talent can perform a number of simple tricks to amaze and astound. She may use the spells ghost sound, mage hand, and prestidigitation at-will as a Sorcerer of equal level. As with all magicianís tricks, however, these tricks are accomplished through extraordinary, not magical, means.

So Close: The magician can use her now Iím here ability to turn aside potential blows. Once per encounter, the magician may, as an immediate action, make a Stealth check against an incoming attack roll. If the result of the Stealth check is equal to or greater than the incoming attack, the magician may immediately use her Now Iím Here ability to translocate herself, taking no damage from the attack. The magician must be of at least 9th level to select this trick.

Something From Nothing: The magician can use her Nothing Up My Sleeves ability to produce larger items than seem possible. The magician may carry any item on her person as long as its size category does not exceed her own. This allows her to produce, for example, a ten-foot pole, a heavy crossbow, an unlikely length of cloths tied together, and so on. The magician must be at least 5th level to select this trick.

Nothing Up My Sleeves (Ex): The magician always has a little something extra on her person. Beginning at 1st level, whenever the magician is in a city, town, or other location wherein she could stock up on supplies, she may invest up to 100 gp per class level to acquire unspecified gear. This gear can be any kind of gear that can reasonably fit into a backpack, including potions and scrolls (but not any other sort of magic item), but it may weigh no more than 10 pounds. As a full-round action, the magician may dig through her pockets to retrieve an item she specifies at that time, deducting its value from the allocated amount of cost. When the total remaining cost reaches 0, the magician can retrieve no more items until she refills her sleeves by spending a few hours and an amount of gold to bring her total back up to 100 gp per class level.

In addition, if she takes 1 hour to pack her gear each day, the magician gains a +4 bonus to Strength to determine her light encumbrance. This does not affect her maximum carrying capacity. The efficient distribution of weight simply encumbers less than the same amount of weight normally should. Finally, the magician gains a +4 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal small objects on her person.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a magician can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the magician is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless magician does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Presto (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, the magician becomes able to produce items from their person as if by magic. They gain the Quick Draw feat for free. However, unlike normal, they may draw alchemical items, potions, scrolls, wands, and wondrous items as a free action as well.

Sneak Attack (Ex): If a Magician can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The magician's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 2nd level, and increases by 1d6 every four magician levels thereafter. Should the magician score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a magician can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual Ė4 penalty.
The magician must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A magician cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.

Now Iím Here (Ex): The magician has the extraordinary ability to appear in places that she really shouldnít be. Beginning at 3rd level, with a successful Stealth check against all observers, the magician can translocate a number of squares equal to her magician class level, as long as it is within line of sight. This is not a teleportation effect Ė the magician was in fact in the other location the entire time, and has only revealed this fact now. The magician can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. Using this ability is a standard until 8th level when it instead becomes a move action, and at 14th level it becomes a swift action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a magician can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A magician with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.

If a magician already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Set the Stage (Ex): The magician is at her best when she has had time to prepare a given area for magic. If a magician of at least 6th level has at least 15 minutes to prepare a given area (a room, a stage, a grassy field, etc.) for her magic, she receives a bonus to all her skill checks equal to her magician class level while in that area for the next hour. Further, the amount of time required to prepare an area for magic decreases by 1 minute at 7th level and every magician level thereafter, to a minimum of 1 minute at 20th level.

Improved Evasion (Ex): This works like evasion, except that while the magician still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless magician does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Ethereal Gears
2013-12-03, 03:59 PM
First off, let me say that I utterly adore the concept of this class and I think it is by and large perfect for the niche it attempts to fill. Somewhere halfway between a rogue and a bard in a way, with a greater focus on skillmonkeying than buffing or damage; just right for a magician.

Obviously presto is potentially the most powerful standalone ability of the class and clearly it's not worded precisely enough for it to be crystal clear what it does. I'm not sure I agree with Whiskey-Jack's utter removal of its reactive capability in favor of a smattering of sneak attack. I'm not opposed to spreading sneak attack far and wide as a mechanic among many different classes; I just don't think it's suitable to the magician's flavor. I am also not in favor of simply limiting presto to Cha mod times per day as KitsuneBoxing suggested. While I agree it cannot be limitless (if such indeed was its intent), I also don't think the class's sole offensive edge should be so drastically curtailed.

Making it consume an immediate action and an attack of opportunity seems very reasonable to me. I think at first you should only be able to make counterattacks with weapons, then later on gain the ability to drink potions and finally the ability to wand-cast at some later level where wands'll have lost a bit of their luster. Beyond the point where full casters can cast 5th- or 6th-level spells I don't foresee a "quickened" such spell from a wand being too unbalancing a factor. Basically the sort of spells you can cast effectively via a wand are a bit limited. I overall think presto is a fair enough ability that could actually make potion use in PF slightly more viable. I do realize one of the strengths of the ability is being able to combine it with Nothing up my Sleeve, which is why I suggest ratcheting up exactly what sort of actions can be presto'd as one's class level increases. My suggestion is playtest the class and see if too many brilliant reaction-combinations occur if, say, potions become available first at 6th level and wands don't come online until 10th or so.

KitsuneBoxing
2013-12-03, 07:05 PM
I am also not in favor of simply limiting presto to Cha mod times per day as KitsuneBoxing suggested. While I agree it cannot be limitless (if such indeed was its intent), I also don't think the class's sole offensive edge should be so drastically curtailed.

Yeah, i pretty much agree. I mean, obviosly just cha mod times per day would be way too few times, something more like your class level + your cha mod would be more reasonable, but that's if you're gonna limit it, which i agree probably isn't necessary if you set different levels for the varius uses. I also think that spending both an immediate action and an attack of opportunity is a good idea.

With the sneak attack i'm not really sure. I'm not crazy about the class having sneak attack, but i do think it would really work, and they certainly have a big sneak element, so i suppose they will often want to attack people from a hidden position. For them to get some sort of bonus from this would be logical i think. But on the other hand it's maybe too dark a flavour for them and feels a little too rogue like...

Maybe if they got another ability, that did not give the damage bonus while flanking, but only in ceratain situations where they attack people unexpectedly, such as from using the "now you see me now you dont" ability to attack someone from a hidden position. Or now that i think about it, maybe it would be more fun for them to be able to give enemies some sort of conditions by doing this, something similar to a stunning fist, but only usable while attacking from an unexpected position.

It's just an idea (and a vague one at that) but with them having several stealth based abilities, and them being people who i think would want to use surprise in combat, some mechanic to support that would be nice. Sneak attack is the easy option, but as i've said there are other (i think more fun) varieties to think about.

Ethereal Gears
2013-12-03, 07:41 PM
I could imagine presto leveling up and giving you more uses of it per turn as you increase in level. This could allow for some mechanic whereby you "sacrifice" a presto attack when it would ordinarily be triggered, allowing you to render a foe flat-footed for the purposes of then using another presto attack to inflict sneak attack damage or, as KitsuneBoxing suggested (and which I personally also find more interesting both mechanically and flavorwise), some sort of debilitating condition. Basically this would be a bit akin to the PF antipaladin's touch of corruption; you'd not have free access to these sneak attack dice/debuffs, but rather they could either only be applied via the presto ability, or to flat-footed foes if presto itself involved some means of rendering foes flat-footed. Not automatically, but possibly via making them fail a save or similar. This is all rather abstract (I'm not great with thinking up exact numbers on the spot), but I think this could be a viable direction for the ability to go in.

KitsuneBoxing
2013-12-03, 07:58 PM
It's a good idea but i think it should work against flat footed foes generally. I mean there is at the movement no way to use presto to make someone flat footed (although it sounds like a fine idea), but there are at least two abilities (that i can see) to effectively hide from an enemy in combat. The "now i'm here" ability, which transports you to another place, perfect for hiding, and the (albeit selectable) "now you see me now you don't". I just think that it would be a missed opportunity to not add these abilities more into combat by giving you a boost when attacking someone that is flat footed.

jonnybard
2013-12-03, 08:52 PM
maybe a bonus to escape artist magicians now a days are experts at escape tricks maybe a class skill that has them pop up out side of a trap with little or no explanation like Mr. miracle from DC comics i love the idea i once had a wizard who specialized in prestidigitation this is pretty much what i was going for.

Ethereal Gears
2013-12-04, 01:02 PM
Definitely some sort of Houdini-esque Escape Artist-inclined trick should go in there. I also agree with KitsuneBoxing's addendum to my idea (itself an addendum to KitsuneBoxing's earlier proposal) to have some sort of ability that affects Dex-denied/flat-footed foes but does something touch of corruption-like rather than inflict hit point damage. Debuffing seems more the magician's flavor than sneak attack anyway. I still think presto could gain one or two additional uses per round at higher levels, adding an ability to sacrifice one of these to possibly make a foe flat-footed lest they make a save or similar.

Ilorin Lorati
2013-12-04, 01:48 PM
I feel kinda bad for the creator. Here we are all making bunches of comments and he's nowhere to be found. P:

Okay, my opinions...

First up, there's six dead levels, the first of which is at 6th level. A few dead levels wouldn't be too much of a problem if they were odd levels, but as it stands right now that means there's 6 levels where all you get is a dice roll and some skill points as far as interactivity goes. An easy way to mitigate a lot of this if you're going to go with a every other level chassis for your tricks is to make it every even level, or first and every even level similar to fighter feats. That still doesn't reduce the number of dead levels (still 6 by my count), but it mitigates the frustration of just not getting anything by giving normal feats in those levels.

There's also no capstone, something that most classes should have; giving a nice "you're the best at this" bonus helps round out the class and tells you that yes, you're finished.

Next, there's pretty much nothing in this class that will help in any way with combat. Barring a few outliers, d20 is an inherently combat focused game, and not giving any sort of support for it is going to prevent it from being able to contribute in those situations. For the love of god though, don't just give it sneak attack and call it a day. No offense to Whiskey-Jack, but there are much better ways to add in a flavorful combat ability (and I go into some ideas for that further down). Sneak attack is cheap and easy, but doesn't do anyone any favors.

On a note, having a plethora of skill bonuses doesn't make a class good, and it seems half of your tricks are just that: skill bonuses. I'd have them pick one and make it a default at second level, and then not allow them to take any more. Be warned that right now Cold Read is the best of them by far because Perception is heads above and beyond what the other skills do for a character. It's arguable, in fact, that Perception is stronger than UMD for most campaigns.

Finally, I don't really see anything that this class can do. She's billed as a master of misdirection, but aside from a couple mobility tricks and skill bonuses, there's nothing really that will do it. You need to add a lot to the class to really do this.

Consider this: To really be a master of misdirection, you want to PUNISH the enemy for being misdirected. Frustrate them, anger them. If you make an image and they attack it, they're thrown off balance or you pop up behind them and knock them prone. If they cast a ray at you, pull out a mirror and reflect it back at them. Flank them using yourself. The list goes on. If you don't want the class to deal damage, open it up so that your misdirected target can be accidentally damage by its allies, itself, or even open it up to be dealt the death blow by your allies.

Thunderfist12
2013-12-04, 01:57 PM
First of all: DEAD LEVELS. Why?

Second: Aside from that, it's a very good class. May I "borrow" it for Conquest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317300).

Rogue Shadows
2013-12-17, 06:43 PM
Okay, I'm back now, though. Sorry, got distracted with other stuff, and also completely forgot about this due to, again, other stuff.


Second: Aside from that, it's a very good class. May I "borrow" it for Conquest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317300).

Absolutely, though it isn't finished. The dead levels aren't a part of the class, they just haven't been filled in yet.


First up, there's six dead levels,

Believe you me, I hate dead levels. That was part of the reason of coming here: to fill in those dead levels. I don't want them there, I just don't have anything to fill them in with right now. They're a bug, not a feature.


There's also no capstone, something that most classes should have; giving a nice "you're the best at this" bonus helps round out the class and tells you that yes, you're finished.

Again: bug, not feature. I definitely want a capstone, I'm just not sure what to put there. As I said in the original post, the class is what I have so far; it is nowhere near completed.

The skill bonuses are not meant to be the sum total of the class, they're just the easiest things to design, and so were the things designed first.

As a general rule, I try to give any non-magical class I make at least two things at every level, and better than half the time, at least one of those things should be something new, rather than an upgrade to a previous ability.


and clearly it's not worded precisely enough for it to be crystal clear what it does

The idea behind the ability is that you basically, with a successful Sleight of Hand, get a mini "surprise round" during which you can draw an item and use it. The idea here is, like, say a lion is charging at you. Just before it makes its attack roll, you declare Presto, quick draw a dagger, and attack the lion. OR, you declare Presto, quick draw a potion of blur, and quaff it. OR, you declare Presto, quick draw an immovable rod, and activate it, laughing as the lion smacks into it. Or something.

The wording is unclear, and I'll change it, but the idea is that as long as you have an attack of opportunity available for the remaining round, you can use Presto, though using Presto does not itself count as an attack of opportunity. Obviously, Combat Reflexes is the Magician's friend, since it lets him make some attacks of opportunity without making him unable to use Presto.


I'm not sure I agree with Whiskey-Jack's utter removal of its reactive capability in favor of a smattering of sneak attack.

No, Sneak Attack is the rogue's shtick. While this class is supposed to fill a similar party role, it should definitely have its own feel.


and they certainly have a big sneak element

Mmn...yes and no. While the class is all about misdirection and smoke and mirrors, it does so in a very ostentatious way. This class wants to have all eyes on it.

thethird
2013-12-17, 07:02 PM
No time, no time... read this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=bi56a48daf1cr5vjeb95oo76b4&topic=6543.0)

Rogue Shadows
2013-12-17, 07:54 PM
No time, no time... read this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=bi56a48daf1cr5vjeb95oo76b4&topic=6543.0)

Ooh...very interesting...

Kydell
2013-12-19, 03:22 PM
Quite a unique class. Something I would love to use in my campaign. Allow me a day of research, and I'll get back to you with some possible ideas.

Kydell
2013-12-20, 03:21 AM
Alright, I have a few ideas.

Rope Trick: the magician can make a length of rope move straight upwards and stand by itself without an anchoring point, while she and a number of companions climb up it.

"Big Box" Illusion: with a puff of smoke, the magician can 'summon' a box big enough for a medium size creature, with which she can perform several special tricks.
A) You may have an ally enter this box and at any point thereafter have them appear at a place within line of sight with a daily use of 'Now I'm Here'.
B) You may put any item or person that can normally fit in the box in the box, fold it into a fifth of its original size, and transport it where you wish before unfolding it and retrieving said person or item.

Bullet Trick: if the magician is aware of an enemy's projectile based ranged attack, he may make a perform check opposing the opponent's attack roll. If successful, he appears to catch the opponent's bullet or arrow in his mouth.

Escapology: the magician becomes incredibly adept at escaping bonds, becoming unable to be constrained using mundane means. This could scale throughout levels, eventually allowing them to escape magical bonds as well.

Cut and Restore: the magician can 'restore' various objects to a whole, solidly manufactured item. For instance, several lengths of rope could be restored into a singular piece, being revealed to have never been cut.

Smoke: the magician gains the ability to create smoke in one five foot cube per level, obscuring whatever may be inside.

Mirrors: the magician may use 'Now I'm Here' twice as much in a prepared area.

Showmanship: the magician gains a bonus to escape artist and sleight of hand in a prepared area while being observed.

Also giving the magician abilities that require an 'assistant' or a 'volunteer' might be neat. Obviously I just looked through the most popular magic tricks and made some abilities with them. Go ahead and use or modify what you like. Or disregard the entire thing.