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ngilop
2013-12-01, 01:22 AM
{table=head] Ability | Point Cost
Full Base Attack Bonus | + 3
Average Base Attack Bonus | + 2
Poor Base Attack Bonus | + 1
1 Good Save | + 1
1 Good Save (thatís not Fortitude) | + 1.5
2 Good Saves | +2
3 Good Saves | +3
2 Skill Points | + 0.5
4 Skill Points | + 1
6 Skill Points | + 1.5
8 Skill Points | + 2
D4 HP | + 1
D6 HP | + 1.5
D8 HP | + 2
D10 HP | + 2.5
D12 HP | + 3
Access to First & Second Level Spells or Equivalent abilities | + 1
Access to Third & Fourth Level Spells or Equivalent abilities | + 2
Access to Fifth and Sixth Level Spells or Equivalent abilities | + 3
Access to Seventh Level Spells or Equivalent abilities | + 4
Access to Eighth Level Spells or Equivalent abilities | + 5
Access to Ninth Level Spells or Equivalent abilities | + 6
Limited Selection of Spells | + 2
Spells Learned From Fixed List | + 1
Access to whole Spell list | + 3
Rage | + 1
Bardic Knowledge | + 0.5
Inspire Abilities | + 1.5
Turn Undead | +1.5
Wild Shape | + 2
Full Animal Companion | + 2
Weak Animal Companion Or Mount | + 1
Familiar | + 1
Move Speed Bonus | + 0.5
Flurry of Blows | + 0.5
Smite Evil | + 0.5
Divine Grace | + 1
Aura of Courage | + 1
Divine Health | + 0.5
Favored Enemy | + 0.5
Evasion | + 1.5
Sneak Attack | + 1
Uncanny Dodge | + 0.5
Improved Uncanny Dodge | + 1
Improved Evasion | + 1
Mettle | + 1
Improved Mettle | + 1.5
Eldritch Blast | + 1
Skirmish | + 1.5
Minor Auras | + 1
Major Auras | + 1
Minor Incarnum Acess | + 1
Major Incarnum Access | + 1
Knight's Challenge | + 1
[/table]


Hello everybody. This has been something ive been working on for a few weeks now, trying to get the numbers right to better correlate with JaronK's
'Tier' System.
Building a class with these modifier should tell you what is and what is not a little broken. ALL number are cumulative and you round down.

TO better help illistrate this I'll make a PhB Wizard and compare it to a PhB Fighter

Wizard
Poor Base Attack Bonus + 1
Limited Weapons + 1
No Armor + 0.5
No Shields + 0.5
1 Good Save (thatís not Fortitude) + 1.5
2 Skill Points + 0.5
D4 HP + 1
Access to First & Second Level Spells or Equivalent abilities + 1
Access to Third & Fourth Level Spells or Equivalent abilities + 2
Access to Fifth and Sixth Level Spells or Equivalent abilities + 3
Access to Seventh Level Spells or Equivalent abilities + 4
Access to Eighth Level Spells or Equivalent abilities + 5
Access to Ninth Level Spells or Equivalent abilities + 6
Access to whole Spell list + 3
Limited Selection of Spells + 2
Spells Learned From Fixed List + 1
Familiar + 1
TOTAL 34

Fighter
Full Base Attack Bonus + 2.5
Average Base Attack Bonus + 2
Poor Base Attack Bonus + 1
All Weapons +2
Simple Weapons Only + 1.5
Limited Weapons + 1
All Armor + 1
Medium Armor or Lower + 1
Light Armor or Limited Armor + 0.5
No Armor + 0.5
All Shield + 1
Heavy Shields + 1
Light Shields + 0.5
No Shields + 0.5
1 Good Save + 1
TOTAL 16

as you can see the Wizard Far outstrips the fighter. and yes its mostly from the ability to cast spells.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-12-05, 01:59 AM
Hello everybody. This has been something I've been working on for a few weeks now, trying to get the numbers right to better correlate with JaronK's 'Tier' System.

First things first...attempting to design a valid "Point Cost" is a brave undertaking, to say the least. Unfortunately, most good homebrewers and/or D&D class balance aficionados (myself included) consider such systems--even well intentioned ones--to be an incredibly rough estimate at best, and utterly useless at worst.

For example...experienced gamers/homebrewers/designers already know how the class balance stacks up: that's how JaronK got his Tiers. So this would really only have practical value if it could encompass Homebrew classes...which it can't.

That's through no fault of your own, of course. But let's take any class with player-designed systems or mechanics. Those mechanics aren't found on your table, so the table doesn't help us. We could attempt to calculate the point cost of various player-created abilities, but then we're just where we were before: using our game experience to judge relative balance. In short, we gain nothing.

Additionally, your numbers seem way off. A Familiar + Knight's Challenge does not equal the raw versatility and power granted by Wild Shape, for example. The Wizard is also not significantly weaker than the Druid, although the Druid's point value will be significantly higher. You also fail to account for some features, like, for example, Bonus Feats.

In short though..."point cost" systems are extremely rough generalizations at best. I would recommend that, instead of using them or trying to perfect them (things which I believe aren't helpful or production), would-be homebrewers instead spend time critiquing and understanding some of the good examples of balance in 3.5 and the homebrew community, so that judging balance becomes second nature to them. It's easier, involves less book-keeping, and makes it a lot faster to appraise balance in either your own creations or those of others.

ngilop
2013-12-05, 03:10 AM
Hmm actual critque for once.. i have to say.. im impressed, very impressed


You did pick up on one mistake I did LOl wilfshape is supposed to be +3 not +2..

But, balance within 3.5 is one of those opinion things. what some consider balanced others consider weak/useless

for exampel I like the bard and think it the poster child for a balanced class.. most others think the bard is worthless.

or I alwasy found the favored soul while not havign know: religion dumb, to be a powerful class.. it seems that on teh GITP forums im a minority and the favored soul is pointless.

this was juts an excersise of the brain for me.. any you have my thanks for being so respectful, thoughtful and actually generally giving me some constructive critisism insteado being like
So this is a Witch without healing, without 9th level casting, and instead getting full BAB and a companion?

or


Always good to see Hexblade stuff!

Temotei
2013-12-05, 06:41 AM
for exampel I like the bard and think it the poster child for a balanced class.. most others think the bard is worthless.

I think the only time I thought the bard was worthless was when I first read the PHB. These forums hold a very different opinion.


or I alwasy found the favored soul while not havign know: religion dumb, to be a powerful class.. it seems that on teh GITP forums im a minority and the favored soul is pointless.

That's mainly because the cleric does the favored soul's job, but better. Favored soul is strong, it's just not the cleric.

Anyway, I'm going to have to go with Djinn on this one. Even as a thought exercise I feel it's in vain. Not much to gain, y'dig?. Rhymes. Bustin' 'em.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-12-05, 09:41 AM
Hmm actual critique for once.. i have to say.. im impressed, very impressed

There's a lot of good advice and helpful criticism floating around GiantitP: I'm just one source of it. That said, you're welcome.


You did pick up on one mistake I did LOl wilfshape is supposed to be +3 not +2...

So Wild Shape (one of the most powerful single class features in the game) was supposed to be balanced with, say, Evasion + Mettle + a Familiar? I'm still not buying it.

And that's the problem. You can't quantify these abilities. I notice Mettle is worth as much on a class with a weak Fortitude save as on a class with a strong one. It's much weaker on the first class, and much more powerful on a class with a strong Fortitude + Will save.

A similar thing could be said of many of these balance decisions. Access to an entire spell list of 1st-2nd level spells apparently costs 7 points...or I could get Wild Shape, Major Incarnum Access, and a full Sneak Attack progression. The second one sounds far strong, yet they're valued the same.

In short, the system is incredibly imbalanced, and the point values aren't high enough to be able to accurate differentiate between the relative strengths of abilities.

The point system I've found most "accurate" (a relative term when discussing point systems) used numbers large enough that classes tended to end up in the 200-300 point range, and even that level of differentiation between abilities wasn't sufficient (as, for example, the Monk kept showing up much much higher than it should have).


But, balance within 3.5 is one of those opinion things. what some consider balanced others consider weak/useless.

The thing is that "balance" when discussing homebrew is usually discussed in a vacuum of "base potential" and "optimized potential." Wizards are usually fine at my personal game tables, but only because my group has a few people who don't understand their potential, and a greater number of people who realize that potential and then intentionally don't reach it.

In short, D&D 3.5 balance isn't an opinion thing. People who say the Wizard and the Rogue are balanced against each other are simply incorrect. They may not have experienced the vast power difference for themselves, but the amount of potential power inherent in those classes is vastly different. That's a fact, not opinion.


for example I like the bard and think it the poster child for a balanced class.. most others think the bard is worthless.

I think most players/homebrewers/designers with a firm grasp of D&D would agree that the Bard is a very good example of Tier 3 design. It's a great example of balance for that specific level of power. Those who disagree either have a very different idea of the balance point they desire (some want a game of all Tier 1s, others a game of all Tier 5s), or don't fully understand the Bard as a class.


I alwasy found the favored soul,,,to be a powerful class.. it seems that on the GITP forums I'm a minority and the favored soul is pointless.

It is a powerful class. But it's also pointless because, as Temotei points out, the Cleric is just the Favored Soul but better. It's why the Sorcerer is one of the most commonly "fixed" classes (after probably the Wizard, Fighter, and Monk): the Sorcerer is amazingly powerful (being Tier 2, like the Favored Soul), but is just overshadowed by the Wizard's amazing potential in almost all meaningful ways. They're very strong classes...but the Wizard/Cleric just edge them out, making them poor choices by comparison. Does that make sense?


This was just an exercise of the brain for me.

Fair enough. I hope that, from my comments, this exercise has proved helpful. I would recommend, however, avoiding attempts to mathematically quantity non-numerical abilities in the future though: I can see no possible way to make such a system accurate or reliable. It's far better to achieve the ability to judge balance through system experience and system mastery than through a checklist.


...and you have my thanks for being so respectful, thoughtful and actually generally giving me some constructive criticism...

You're very welcome. :smallsmile:


Instead being like...

Do me a personal favor? The homebrew community on GiantitP is a small one, and I like to keep it a respectful and professional one. Please don't call out people for the quality of advice they give unless that advice is actually insulting/offensive/etc, in which case you should report it to a moderator. Sometimes people (myself included) don't have much to say, don't have time to type, or are just feeling a bit terse. Them posting is a way of saying your creation at least generated enough interest to warrant their time writing...so learn to embrace even the little comments (like that one that encouraged more Hexblade stuff...that means he was happy to see it). Don't just dismiss them.

After all, we're all (well...mostly) friends here. Let's keep it friendly. :smallbiggrin:

Zman
2013-12-05, 12:37 PM
I have to agree with Djinn, it is too difficult to quantify how powerful certain abilities are. For instance, how do you assign the value of encounter winning abilities such as charm person, color spray, invisibility when that value has to be equivalent to more skill points, or more HP.

The problem lies in the relative power of certain abilities which varies wildly, ie a Blaster Caster has only the fraction of the game influence as a Batman Wizard. Both are paying the same costs, one is wildly more powerful.

It's a notable goal, but it's usefulness is difficult to appreciate as we end up back to square one.

Logic
2013-12-05, 01:25 PM
If this is something you want to continue, don't be afraid to assign NO POINTS to some things.

For example, a poor base attack bonus, poor skill points and a poor save should be no class-value-point cost at all. You can't go lower than that, so why assign it a point value above 0?

zlefin
2013-12-05, 01:59 PM
As a point of reference; I'd recommend the system in my sig that someone made. It's a rather nice build your own class point buy system.

Mutazoia
2013-12-08, 10:29 PM
I would suggest getting your hands on a copy of the 2nd ed DMG. TSR put a system akin to this in there for DM's to design their own classes for their campaigns. Although out of date, it should serve as a good framework for your project.