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Spellhunter
2007-01-13, 09:39 PM
Hello,
I just joined these boards and I want to say I look forward to reading and collaborating with you all :smallsmile:

So I have been trying for some time to make several effective yet fun defensive magic spells that are more flexable then the average. You see in my group, and I am sure in many others, the trend in casting is leaning towards felxability; with sorcerers, warmages, beguilers, and of course the dreaded psion being the flavor of the day. So a good ol' vancian caster(or any caster for that matter) can suffer if they are not careful, as far as defensive magic goes. Where once a fire resist spell could save your hide for the battle, now if the fireball fails to work they just switch it up. So as a dm I started doing several things that I found dymanic, fun and all around more flavorful. But I have never had to put that into game mechanics until now, and I find myself stumped. So I ask all who read to give some ideas as to how I (or anyone who takes an interest in this) could build a PC with some of these abilities.

So on to some examples:

The first effect is like a counter spell, and although I like that mechanic, it seems to exclusive. You need three precious feats to actually become good at it. The way I describe it is like a magical parry (as in sword parry). The spell is flying towards the victim, and in the last instant the victim uses some form of defense or magical thrust to block the spell aside.

Idea # 1
Point to keep in mind: There would have to be a chance of success or failure, or at least a sacrifice of something greater for this to work because the spells that are good at this are usually high level, and I would prefer to make something that is usefull and scales at all levels.

Maybe this could be a feat, where you sacrifice a certain amount of spell energy to use an immediate action to parry the spell aside. The spell used to counter (or spell points) would probably have to be at least one level higher than the offending spell.
or
Make it a spell that must be cast beforehand that lets you use some mechanic to turn aside spells. I know there is one like that in CA(duelward), but that one only works for one spell and its 5th level, and I am thinking that this could last longer and maybe have lower level versions.

Idea #2:
A new mechanic for spell turning (or reflection). Spell turning is a 7th level spell, which in my games don't become available for the PC's all that often. We try to play higher, but most of the time its 6th level and lower spells that are being thrown around.

So again, maybe this could be a metamagic feat that gets added to defensive spells which gives a chance to turn(reflect) a spell back on its caster. Maybe there could be an option or a second feat that allows the caster to choose where the reflected spell goes (as in a new target).
or
a lower level spell that grants a chance of success at turning a spell (or at least blocking it). *I love this idea because it screams MAGE DUEL to me. Its a concept out of every fantasy book I've every read where one mage's spell protections turn the spell away.

I like it so much because it is becoming easier and easier to change up your offensive spells, so why not make a defensive spell that covers more ground.

Idea #3
What if a spell or feat (or mechanic for that matter) is made that allows a chance to turn incoming spells aside using skill checks. If you roll high enough the spell can be turned aside, and maybe if you roll really high, you can turn the spell back on its caster. This could make for some interesting battles because one spell could be lobbed back and forth several times, until the lesser mage fails his check.

Again this is circling around a concept trying to find something that works and is fun, what if its a feat like deflect arrows, but with a check to deflect spells. Or maybe burn spell points or spells to turn it aside. Now in this instance spellpoints seem to be the way to go, because its nothing to spend 5-10 spell points turning a potentially deadly spell aside, but using your last fireball spell to do the same makes the idea almost not worth it. Better to use the fireball and take the damage (which makes no sense to me when you think about it in a *realistic(i know, we are talking about spells:smallwink: ) way. But you can always just spend the spellpoints on the fireball later, where as you might only have one fireball left.


So I throw down the gauntlet to any who might attempt to help me wrestle with this problem. I am always searching for new ways to make the game fun and exciting and I feel that this might be one of them...

Take care and happy hunting

Myatar_Panwar
2007-01-13, 09:57 PM
Hmmmm, maybe for your third idea, you could have that anyone who takes a level in a type of spell-caster can have the ability of using their concentration check (or an all new skill) + their caster level against the caster of the spell. If your over then the spell sizzles in the atmosphere around you. If you make it by over 10 then the spell is sent back at the caster where a new check can be made, making the caster the victim. And if you fail by 5 or more then you accidentally empower the spell (as the feat). And if you fail by ten then its maximized (maybe). And I'm sure other rules can be made so that spells can be deflected in a random generation so as to hit someone else (maybe if you roll high enough you can control the direction).

And for my idea I think that you wouldn't have to spend a spell because the chances of deflecting it back at the caster are harder than having it empowered (and maybe enlarged if it has an area). It should also be voluntary.

Daracaex
2007-01-14, 12:47 AM
Your third idea sounds a lot like the Gannondorf/Phantom Gannon battles in the Legend of Zelda games.

I have a couple of feat ideas that could work. Not sure if they're exactly balanced or not though, but they do kind of scale and balance themselves.

Spell Counter
Description: You can easily counter your enemies spells.
Prerequisites: Able to cast 2nd-level arcane spells
Benefit: Whenever an enemy spellcaster casts a spell with you as it's target, you may immediately expend a spell slot to counter it. If the spell slot you expend is higher than the spell cast at you, the spell is neutralized. Countering is an immediate action.
Normal: You must ready an action to identify your opponent's spell and cast the same spell or Dispell Magic as a counter.

Spell Deflection
Description: You can easily deflect your enemies spells away from you.
Prerequisites: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, Spell Counter feat
Benefit: As Spell Counter, but if the spell slot you expend is two levels higher than your opponents, it is instead deflected in a random direction. Roll a d8 to determine the direction it is deflected from your square. Consult this list to determine the direction:
1: Straight ahead
2: To your right forward diagonal
3: To your right
4: To your right back diagonal
5: Straight back
6: To your left back diagonal
7: To your left
8: To your left forward diagonal
When a spell is deflected, it continues for the rest of its range before fizzing out. The spell affects the first creature in it's path once reflected. If the spell affects all creatures along it's path, then it keeps going for the rest of it's range, affecting creatures as normal. If the spell has an area of effect, it is centered one the first creature it comes to. If the spell hits nothing, it is expended with no effect. Assume that you are facing the direction that the spell is coming from when you roll to deflect it.
Normal: You may only counter a spells effects. The spell is neutralized when this happens.
Special: If your expended spell slot is three levels higher than your opponent's, you may deflect the spell in a direction of your choosing, including angles not possible when rolling directions. Choose a target that is completely exposed to you (no other creature in the way) and the spell is deflected back in that direction. You can deflect the spell back at it's caster in this way as well.
If your opponent has this feat and reflects your own spell back at you, you may reflect it a second time, provided the spell slot you expend is 1 level higher than it would normally have to be with this feat (i.e. You cast a 3rd-level spell, your opponent expends a 6th-level spell and reflects it back at you. You need to expend a 6th-level spell slot to randomly deflect it or expend a 7th-level spell slot to purposely redirect it).

Improved Spell Deflection
Description: You can counter or deflect your enemies spells with very little effort.
Prerequisites: Able to cast 4th-level arcane spells, Spell deflection feat, Spell Counter Feat
Benefit: As Spell Deflection and Spell Counter, but you may counter or deflect a spell as a free action.
Normal: You may only counter or deflect a spells effects with a immediate action.

Metamagic Spell Deflection
Description: You can add an applicable metamagic affect to a deflected spell.
Prerequisites: Able to cast 4th-level arcane spells, Spell Counter feat, Spell Deflection feat
Benefit: As Spell deflection but you may add a metamagic effect to the deflected spell. The spell slot you expend needs to be the level it has to be to deflect a spell, plus the adjustment for adding the metamagic effect. For axample, a 2nd-level spell is cast at you. You use a fourth level spell to counter it, but you decide to also Empower the spell upon its deflection. You have to expend a 6th-level spell slot for it to work. Adjust the spell level according to the metamagic applied.
Normal: You may only deflect a spell. You can do nothing to change it's affects.

Spellhunter
2007-01-14, 05:31 PM
Your third idea sounds a lot like the Gannondorf/Phantom Gannon battles in the Legend of Zelda games.

I have a couple of feat ideas that could work. Not sure if they're exactly balanced or not though, but they do kind of scale and balance themselves.

Spell Counter
Description: You can easily counter your enemies spells.
Prerequisites: Able to cast 2nd-level arcane spells
Benefit: Whenever an enemy spellcaster casts a spell with you as it's target, you may immediately expend a spell slot to counter it. If the spell slot you expend is higher than the spell cast at you, the spell is neutralized. Countering is an immediate action.
Normal: You must ready an action to identify your opponent's spell and cast the same spell or Dispell Magic as a counter.

I like the concept, however you would need a pretty lenient DM to allow that in the game, only because this feat allows you to counter a spell with any other spell that is of higher level, and as it stands improved counterspell only allows you to counterspell with a spell one level higher of the same school, and you still need to delay your turn to do so.

But then again I am lenient dm in this regard so ...:smallbiggrin:




Spell Deflection
Description: You can easily deflect your enemies spells away from you.
Prerequisites: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, Spell Counter feat
Benefit: As Spell Counter, but if the spell slot you expend is two levels higher than your opponents, it is instead deflected in a random direction. Roll a d8 to determine the direction it is deflected from your square. Consult this list to determine the direction:
1: Straight ahead
2: To your right forward diagonal
3: To your right
4: To your right back diagonal
5: Straight back
6: To your left back diagonal
7: To your left
8: To your left forward diagonal
When a spell is deflected, it continues for the rest of its range before fizzing out. The spell affects the first creature in it's path once reflected. If the spell affects all creatures along it's path, then it keeps going for the rest of it's range, affecting creatures as normal. If the spell has an area of effect, it is centered one the first creature it comes to. If the spell hits nothing, it is expended with no effect. Assume that you are facing the direction that the spell is coming from when you roll to deflect it.
Normal: You may only counter a spells effects. The spell is neutralized when this happens.
Special: If your expended spell slot is three levels higher than your opponent's, you may deflect the spell in a direction of your choosing, including angles not possible when rolling directions. Choose a target that is completely exposed to you (no other creature in the way) and the spell is deflected back in that direction. You can deflect the spell back at it's caster in this way as well.
If your opponent has this feat and reflects your own spell back at you, you may reflect it a second time, provided the spell slot you expend is 1 level higher than it would normally have to be with this feat (i.e. You cast a 3rd-level spell, your opponent expends a 6th-level spell and reflects it back at you. You need to expend a 6th-level spell slot to randomly deflect it or expend a 7th-level spell slot to purposely redirect it).


This could be a recepe for disaster:smallwink:. I like the deflection in a random direction, however I would suggest adding it to a system where its possible to roll a critical miss, or going with Myatar_Panwar's idea, have this happen when you roll 10 below.


Improved Spell Deflection
Description: You can counter or deflect your enemies spells with very little effort.
Prerequisites: Able to cast 4th-level arcane spells, Spell deflection feat, Spell Counter Feat
Benefit: As Spell Deflection and Spell Counter, but you may counter or deflect a spell as a free action.
Normal: You may only counter or deflect a spells effects with a immediate action.

I am not quite sure what you intended with this feat, but I believe an immediate action is better than a free action because you can do it at anytime. That would make this feat redundant.



Metamagic Spell Deflection
Description: You can add an applicable metamagic affect to a deflected spell.
Prerequisites: Able to cast 4th-level arcane spells, Spell Counter feat, Spell Deflection feat
Benefit: As Spell deflection but you may add a metamagic effect to the deflected spell. The spell slot you expend needs to be the level it has to be to deflect a spell, plus the adjustment for adding the metamagic effect. For axample, a 2nd-level spell is cast at you. You use a fourth level spell to counter it, but you decide to also Empower the spell upon its deflection. You have to expend a 6th-level spell slot for it to work. Adjust the spell level according to the metamagic applied.
Normal: You may only deflect a spell. You can do nothing to change it's affects.
I love this idea, but the problem that I can forsee is that the cost to increase the spell becomes to high. Would a PC want to use a 6th level spell to empower a scorching ray or would they just take the damage and cast disintegrate next round.

Thanks Daracaex, I think you had some excellent ideas. I hope you dont mind me taking some of what you suggested and running with it in a different direction.

How about this.

Spell Counter
Description: You can attempt to counter your enemies spells.
Prerequisites: Able to cast 2nd-level arcane spells
Benefit: Whenever an enemy spellcaster targets you with a spell, you may attempt to counter it. First you must make a Spellcraft check to identify the incomming spell. If that succeeds, as an immediate action make a caster level check. The DC is equal to 11 + the spell's caster level. If the check is successful, you can expend a spell of equal or greater value to nullify the effects of the incomming spell. If your character uses spell points, they must expend an amount of spell points as if they had cast the spell themselves, however they need not augment it in anyway.
Normal: You must ready an action to identify your opponent's spell and cast the same spell or Dispell Magic as a counter.

Now the issue I have with this is the vancian casters (wizards, clerics, and druids) have the hardest time using this feat, and since we still use them in my game I want to try and make this more plausable for those classes. So..

Crafty Dispeller [RESERVE]
Prerequisites: Able to cast 3rd-level spells
Benefit: As long as you have a Dispeling spell of 3rd level or higher prepared, you can use this feat to make targeted Dispel magic attempts. The Dispel attempt requires a full round action to complete, finishing on the same round that you began using this feat. (i.e. you can only take a 5-foot step when using this feat). The Maximum caster level follows this progression. A 3rd level spell used grants a +10 max caster level; a 4th level grants a +13; a 5th level grants a +16; a 6th level grants a +20, a 7th level grants a + 22, an 8th grants a + 23, and a 9th grants a +25.
Special: If you have the Spell Counter Feat, you may use this reserve feat as the spell used to counter, however you must have a Dispel spell left in preparation that is of equal or greater level then the spell being countered.
A wizard may take this as one of his bonus feats.

Now although this takes two feats to do, I like this better because it is a fun counterspell varient and after the second feat the standard caster actually has the edge over their more spontanious bretheren.

This post has gone on long enough. Let me know what you all think. Ill keep trying to come up with other options.

Thanks

Daracaex
2007-01-14, 05:36 PM
Yeah, I know they're not the best feats in the world and probably unbalanced as heck, but they're the first ones I've attempted. I usually just give out ideas and leave balancing to better folks. What I was actually trying to do with the free action thing was keep it so it could be used at any time, but then make it usable more than once in a round. You said you wanted people to fling spells back and forth. And yes, I kind of thought it might be stupid to waste spell levels just to empower a spell upon deflection, but I made them all the same, and will admit to having fun through my stupidity.:smallbiggrin:

Spellhunter
2007-01-14, 06:13 PM
Hey Daracaex,
I wasn't calling you stupid buddy. I actually want to commend you on throwing ideas to the table, it helped me make a first crack at something which is what collaboration is all about. :smallsmile: And yeah, I could see how those feats would be tons of fun to think up. I get lost in ideas like that all the time, and then I go.. "sonovacrap, how an earth do I make that ballanced?"

Daracaex
2007-01-14, 07:00 PM
No misunderstanding here. I was calling myself stupid.

So, back on topic. Your feats look ok. Obviously, these systems would work better with a mana point system (I think...). I'm not familiar with reserve feats, or just can't remember what they are. Can you point me to a book?

Spellhunter
2007-01-15, 12:19 AM
So reserve feats were introduced in Complete Mage. They are designed for the caster who prepares his spells before hand. Each one is tailored to a specific ability that can then be replicated as long as they keep a specific type of spell prepared (but uncast). For example there is a fire bolt reserve feat. As long as you have a fire spell of any level above 2nd or third i believe prepared, you can shoot a firebolt that deals 1d6/level of the fire spell prepared 30 ft with a 5ft radius burst. So if you have a 5th level fire spell prepared you deal 5d6 fire damage with the bolt. It is designed so that the caster can last the dungeon without running out of spells, but will still be of some use in combat. The feats allow different things other than damage as well. There is a flying one, a short teleportation one and so on. The dispel version I posted would allow for a specific dispel (targeted) and it would take longer to cast. So a wizard with the two feats could counter spells all day long, as long as he kept making his caster level checks.

I have a great idea for a prc based on this stuff. I will try and post it tomorrow.

Daracaex
2007-01-15, 01:24 AM
*Checks copy of Complete Mage* That's neat! Wonder why no one thought of it before?

But now what are you going to do to implement deflection and that "batting a spell back and forth thing you were talking about? I just got an idea for another way to apply a metamagic feat upon deflection of a spell. I think in one of these books there are metamagic rods or staffs? Well maybe, when you deflect a spell with the rod, you can expend one of its charges to automatically apply the effect to a spell.