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Rebonack
2007-01-14, 08:59 PM
So, I went over the statistics of all the SRD melee weapons and tallied up all their attributes. In general it seemed to be a pretty good approximation, as all the weapons fell into the correct categories and such sans really awful stuff like the Greatclub. I should probably go over the system of points I jerry-rigged together.

-Each bit of average damage is one point. So a 1d4 weapon would be 2.5 points, a 1d6 3.5, ect.
-Each bit of critical is likewise one point. You find a weapon's critical by subtracting one from the critical multiplier and then multiplying that by the critical range. Thus, a x4 crit would be 3 points as would a 18-20/x2 crit.
-Every 20' of range increment on a melee weapon is one point.
-Special Monk weapons add .5 points. Consider special Monk weapons to be martial weapons for the purpose of balancing them.
-Tripping weapons add .5 points.
-Weapons that grant a +2 to disarm checks add .5 points.
-Weapons that can be set against a charge add .5 points
-Weapons with variable damage types (Piercing or Slashing) add .5 points.
-Non-light weapons that can be used with weapon finesse add .5 points.
-Weapons that are free add .5 points (Simple Weapons only).
-Reach weapons add 1 point.
-Weapons that deal double damage on a charge add 1 point.
-Reach weapons that threaten adjacent squares add 2 points. (Includes the 1 point for standard reach weapons)
-Double weapons add three points.

Simple Weapons
Light: 4.5 points
One handed: 5.5 points
Two handed: 7.5 points

Martial Weapons
Light: 5.5 points
One handed: 6.5 points
Two handed: 8.5 points

Exotic Weapons
Light: 6.5 points
One handed: 7.5 points
Two handed: 9.5 points

Not all weapons follow this trend, though the vast majority of them do. Two handed martial weapons are the most obvious, the SRD weapons run a range from 8 ( the falchion) to 9 (the great sword) so some wiggle room is workable in terms of a .5 leeway, though better weapons should cost more. Two or three times more.

Miatog
2007-01-14, 11:29 PM
So, following this...a 3 section staff, or Sansetsukon, would look like....

Exotic, 2 handed
1d6 bludgening (3.5)
20/x2 (1)
Doulbe (2)
Trip (.5)
Reach weapons that threaten adjacent squares (2)
Weapon finesse (.5)
+2 to disarm checks (.5)

total points = 10


cost would be...20gp

Iituem
2007-01-15, 06:48 AM
I'd go so far as to say you should never have a weapon worth more than 10 points (and then only if it's exotic and Large). Take out the reach aspect (and thus the reach weapons bit) and possibly nudge the damage down to 1d6 and you'll have it.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-01-15, 08:47 AM
So, following this...a 3 section staff, or Sansetsukon, would look like....

Exotic, 2 handed
1d8 bludgening (4.5)
18-20/x2 (3)
Doulbe (2)
Trip (.5)
Reach weapons that threaten adjacent squares (2)
Weapon finesse (.5)
+2 to disarm checks (.5)

total points = 13


I have a couple more points in there, so cost would be...20gp?

Oriental Adventures and the d20 modern book both have (differant) official stats for that weapon. I can't see why you'd give it reach since it isn't that much longer than a quarterstaff and that threat range makes no sense for a bludgeoning weapon. A flail gets a disarm bonus but I don't think a three section staff should.

But hey, the d20 modern book has it as a 1d10 damage double weapon so why not.

Rebonack
2007-01-15, 12:04 PM
As has been pointed out already weapons should never ever exceed 10 points unless they are large sized or larger.

The critical range, as has been pointed out, doesn't make sense for a weapon like a three section staff. 18-20/x2 represents weapons that strike very precisely, such as a rapier. I would say that x2 or x3 critical would make more sense for your weapon.

Peregrine
2007-01-15, 12:24 PM
I've seen people use an idea of 'points' to balance weapons before, but never have I seen somene lay it out so concisely and comprehensively. My hat is off to you. :smallsmile:

I do have one gripe, which has absolutely no bearing on reality because no base weapon should ever have an expanded crit range and a higher crit multiplier. But anyway. You say to find the point value of a weapon's crits:

You find a weapon's critical by subtracting one from the critical multiplier and then multiplying that by the critical range. Thus, a x4 crit would be 3 points as would a 18-20/x2 crit.

Actually, the 'value' of a weapon's critical stats is R + M + R*M, where R is the value of the threat range (20 being 0, 19-20 being 1, 18-20 being 2) and M is the value of the multiplier (x2 being 0, x3 being 1, x4 being 2). I found this formula empirically and have used it in several discussions about the balance of things like keen and Improved Critical -- but as I said, it really has no bearing on base weapons, because either R or M (or both) should always be 1 for base weapons. I'm just picky. :smallredface: (In your system, the critical points are 1 higher than the result of this formula; that is, a 20/x2 weapon has a result of 0 but is worth 1 point, and better weapons are similarly 1 point higher than their result.)

I also have a question:

-Reach weapons that threaten adjacent squares add 2 points.

Is that in addition to the 1 point for being a reach weapon in the first place? (I just want to be sure here.)

Iituem
2007-01-15, 12:30 PM
Sword-chucks

2d4/2d4 slashing (5)
18-20/x4 (9)
Double (2)
Utterly suicidal (-6)
Total: 10

Any failed attack rolls with this weapon count as an immediate successful attack upon you, as a critical hit. Roll damage, then roll to see if you make the critical threat (against yourself!) and apply damage modifiers as necessary. Generally, only an idiot or a master would dare use this weapon.

Requires Exotic Proficiency: (imbecile)

Rebonack
2007-01-15, 01:11 PM
I've seen people use an idea of 'points' to balance weapons before, but never have I seen somene lay it out so concisely and comprehensively. My hat is off to you. :smallsmile:

I do have one gripe, which has absolutely no bearing on reality because no base weapon should ever have an expanded crit range and a higher crit multiplier. But anyway. You say to find the point value of a weapon's crits:


Actually, the 'value' of a weapon's critical stats is R + M + R*M, where R is the value of the threat range (20 being 0, 19-20 being 1, 18-20 being 2) and M is the value of the multiplier (x2 being 0, x3 being 1, x4 being 2). I found this formula empirically and have used it in several discussions about the balance of things like keen and Improved Critical -- but as I said, it really has no bearing on base weapons, because either R or M (or both) should always be 1 for base weapons. I'm just picky. :smallredface: (In your system, the critical points are 1 higher than the result of this formula; that is, a 20/x2 weapon has a result of 0 but is worth 1 point, and better weapons are similarly 1 point higher than their result.)

I also have a question:


Is that in addition to the 1 point for being a reach weapon in the first place? (I just want to be sure here.)


As you said, the differences between the number used to represent the crit range on weapons shouldn't make too much of a difference since a weapon with a multiplier above x2 with a crit range over 20 is not too likely to happen. With the system that's in place now a 19-20/x3 weapon would take up four points if a sane DM would even allow it.

The two points for a reach weapon that hits adjacent squares is in place of the normal one point for a standard reach weapon. So the reach aspect of a spiked chain takes two and the reach aspect of a long spear takes one.

Oh, and lol at the sword chucks. The crit range would be worth 9 by the way. 3 (for 18 to 20) times 3 (4-1)

Miatog
2007-01-15, 01:22 PM
I can't see why you'd give it reach since it isn't that much longer than a quarterstaff. A flail gets a disarm bonus but I don't think a three section staff should.

Have you ever seen someone use a 3 sections staff before? Granted it was only a demonstration, but trust me it reaches out farther then you think. And it could be used to disarm an opponent, it's basically a flail with 3 metal parts in it.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I lowered the damage and crit range so now it's at 10 points.

Peregrine
2007-01-15, 01:58 PM
As you said, the differences between the number used to represent the crit range on weapons shouldn't make too much of a difference since a weapon with a multiplier above x2 with a crit range over 20 is not too likely to happen. With the system that's in place now a 19-20/x3 weapon would take up four points if a sane DM would even allow it.

That's interesting; four is what it should have. I'm going to have to investigate this; everyone, feel free to skip ahead and ignore my maths obsession. Let me see here:

{table] |x2|x3|x4|x5
20|0/1|1/2|2/3|3/4
19-20|1/2|3/4|5/6|7/8
18-20|2/3|5/6|8/9|11/12
17-20|3/4|7/8|11/12|15/16[/table]

The figure before the slash is what my formula spits out; the figure after the slash is what yours gives. Mine should be 1 point less than yours. I had expected that this would fail at the bottom right; the more you had high multipliers and high threat ranges together, the greater the discrepancy should have been. Clearly, it's not. Your formula works perfectly. I am somewhat disturbed by this.

Apparently my formula was overcomplicating the issue. If Cmine is my formula for the value of weapon's critical stats, and Cyours is yours:
Cmine = R0 + M0 + R0*M0
Cyours = R1*M1

Rx is the value of the threat range, counting 20 as x, thus R1 = R0 + 1; similarly for Mx, where x is the value of x2.

We want to prove that Cyours = Cmine + 1.

Cyours = R1*M1
= (R0 + 1)*(M0 + 1)
= R0*M0 + M0 + R0 + 1
= Cmine + 1 QED

Well don't that just suck? Here all this time I've been using (and telling others) a needlessly complicated formula. :smallfrown:

So. Ignore the gripe in my previous post; it was both purely academic, and wrong.


The two points for a reach weapon that hits adjacent squares is in place of the normal one point for a standard reach weapon. So the reach aspect of a spiked chain takes two and the reach aspect of a long spear takes one.

You may want to make this clearer, then; I was guessing that they would be added together. I just thought it safer to ask.

Rebonack
2007-01-15, 02:12 PM
Parsimony FTW!

I added a note to the value of reach weapons that threaten adjacent squares to make it clear that the two point value already includes the one point for standard reach weapons.

Matthew
2007-01-15, 06:01 PM
Interesting, but I'm not sure how true this is. A 1D10 (5.5) Two Handed Martial Weapon with a x4 (3) Modifier seems possible by this system, but as Yakk has pointed out to me in my thread presenting an alternative Martial Weapons list, no such weapon actually exists on the default table. Do we have any examples of 1D10 x4 Weapons?

Rebonack
2007-01-15, 06:22 PM
Remember that the system outlined here is based on what we're given in terms of core weapons. The main purpose is to provide an easy way for people to determine whether or not a given weapon is balanced with what is currently available in the SRD.

While no example of a martial 1d10 x4 weapon exists it would be balanced with the other martial weapons according to this system.

A good example of a weapon that doesn't fall into the given categories outlined here is the great club.

Since it's a two handed martial weapon we would expect it to tally up to 8.5 points. Or at least 8, as the falchion does.

A 1d10 damage corresponds with 5.5 points and the x2 critical another one. So 6.5 all together. Compare this to a spear's 7.5 and it becomes pretty obvious just how bad the great club is.

Despite this I don't think it's a problem with the system itself. The great club is just an awful weapon.

Matthew
2007-01-15, 06:26 PM
I would tend to agree and I think the system is rather good. I think a 1D10 x4 (8.5) Weapon is reasonable, but I'm not sure if I really think it is the same as a 1D12 19-20/x2 (8.5) or a 1D12 x3 (8.5). I would like to think that it is, though.

Rebonack
2007-01-15, 07:01 PM
Do you think that a 1d6 18-20/2 is comparable to a 1d8 19-20/x2?

It's pretty much the same thing except with smaller damage dice.

Matthew
2007-01-15, 07:11 PM
I would agree with you, except that the evidence Yakk has presented is quite compelling with regard to Two Handed Weapons.

Rebonack
2007-01-15, 07:34 PM
Yak's problem is that he's ignoring the fact that scythes don't just deal damage like the great axe does. They also deal variable damage types and can be used as a tripping weapon. These factors need to be considered as well.

The falchion is just not as good as all other two handed martial weapons sans the great club.

Matthew
2007-01-15, 07:51 PM
I think that may be true. I'm trying to figure it out at the moment. I mean, technically, a higher multiplier is better than an expanded range, but I don't see it's too big a deal. I'm going to have to go away and do the Maths, probably.

Peregrine
2007-01-16, 01:13 AM
I think that may be true. I'm trying to figure it out at the moment. I mean, technically, a higher multiplier is better than an expanded range, but I don't see it's too big a deal. I'm going to have to go away and do the Maths, probably.

Only very slightly, in particular situations. If you can't hit an enemy except on a natural 20, you'd be better off with a 20/x3 than a 19-20/x2, all else being equal (e.g. battleaxe vs longsword). In all other cases, they're more or less equal.

(Actually, it's possible for the 19-20/x2 to be the superior choice. Say you have a choice of longsword and battleaxe against a crowd of enemies with 9 HP, and you have no plusses to damage. Or that their HP are 9 + all your plusses. Neither weapon can drop an enemy on its own, but a crit from the longsword has a fair chance of doing the job, and a crit from the battleaxe has a really good chance of doing it. The battleaxe might therefore be overkill, and the longsword may be the best choice since it gets crits more often.)

I really need to just write up all my analysis of critical stats in one big paper and point people to it. I seem to get into these discussions a lot...

I have a table (well, three tables) that I drew up to lay out the various weapons against each other. A 1d10/x4 weapon would fit in... there. Yeah, it looks at a glance like it'd be balanced against the greataxe.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-16, 10:16 AM
I have a question. I was using these tables to evaluate some custom weapons in my homebrew setting, and they came out a little bit overpowered. My question is this: They are not light weapons, and can be used with Weapon Finesse, but only if another feat is taken, which has the following prerequisites: BAB +8, Dex 15+, Weapon Finesse, Slashing Blades (BAB requirement drops to +4 if you are an elf or half-elf).

Would I add the +0.5 for a non-light weapon being finessable? Because if not, then the weapons are balanced.

Rebonack
2007-01-16, 11:42 AM
I would say you don't add the extra .5 since an extra feat is needed to use them with weapon finesse. Keep in mind though that the rapier, according to this system, is a 7 point weapon when most of the other one handed martial weapons are 6.5. To counter balance this the rapier is also a bit more expensive.

What wielding type (lit, 1hand, 2hand) are the weapons?

Matthew
2007-01-16, 11:53 AM
I think Iames is probably referring to the weapons that can be found at this thread:

Weapons and Feats for my Homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11043)

Triaxx
2007-01-16, 11:53 AM
I'd say no, because it's counter balanced by requiring a second feat, meaning if you take finesse, you can only apply it to the custom weapons after taking the second feat. So you can apply the 0.5, but it's negated by the need for an extra feat to use it.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-16, 12:54 PM
I think Iames is probably referring to the weapons that can be found at this thread:

Weapons and Feats for my Homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11043)

Yep, those would be the ones.

Wizard_Tom
2007-01-16, 03:19 PM
Any ideas on making a balance sheet for ranged weapons?

Douglas
2007-01-16, 04:37 PM
I have a question. I was using these tables to evaluate some custom weapons in my homebrew setting, and they came out a little bit overpowered. My question is this: They are not light weapons, and can be used with Weapon Finesse, but only if another feat is taken, which has the following prerequisites: BAB +8, Dex 15+, Weapon Finesse, Slashing Blades (BAB requirement drops to +4 if you are an elf or half-elf).

Would I add the +0.5 for a non-light weapon being finessable? Because if not, then the weapons are balanced.
Actually, those weapons (or rather, the feat) might be slightly underpowered. The general principle appears to be that a feat can add 1 full point to the value of a weapon, more if the requirements are especially harsh (Weapon Spec is worth 2 points by this system, but is only available to fighters). If all this feat does is allow finessing heavier weapons, it's only worth half a point by this system and could stand having another half-point bonus added to it. With requirements on par with Improved Critical, it could grant a total of 2 or even 3 points of benefits and still be considered balanced by this system.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 05:13 PM
So, I did the Maths and I am happy to say I think a 1D10 x4 Weapon is no big deal. I don't really know what I was thinking. 2D4 (5)is very close to 1D10 (5.5), but I had to be sure.

Consequently (and in conjunction with my gut instinct), I fully endorse this Custom Weapon Builder and I would like to see some form of equation that incorporates Ranged Weaponry.

Triaxx
2007-01-17, 10:08 PM
The trouble with ranged weapons, is that you are dealing with two seperate pieces of an equation. The launcher and ammo. The +3 Greater Elven Longbow of Marksmanship gives +2 to BAB. The Lesser Arrows of Monster Summoning have a +2 BAB bonus. Is the former over powered? No. With the arrows? Possibly.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 10:15 PM
Triaxx
This thread doesn't take into account Enchantments. I don't think it is intended to.

Rebonack
2007-01-17, 10:28 PM
No, this thread isn't for analyzing enhancements, just base weapons.

The problem with ranged weapons is the fact that the only thing that seems to be dividing them up is price. The only mechanical reason why you would want a short bow instead of a long bow is because you happen to be on horseback.

Other than that the long bow is just plain better. This makes it exceedingly difficult to set up a point system for their damage and range and so forth. There just isn't enough to go by.

Triaxx
2007-01-18, 08:53 AM
That's what I was illustrating. Technically speaking though, Long and Short bows should have different arrows, since it's exceedingly hard to shoot a three foot arrow from a bow with only a foot of draw.

Matthew
2007-01-19, 10:45 AM
I quite agree. Strangely, Arrows are listed multiple times on the Weapons Tables. Once for each Bow. Presumably, they were 'Long' and 'Short' at some point.

Peregrine
2007-01-19, 12:36 PM
It's very easy to houserule that you need different arrows (otherwise identical) for each sort of bow. The only downside is the difficulty in using looted/recovered arrows. Making every bow work with the ANSI standard arrow is easier on the players, common sense be hanged. :smallwink:

Matthew
2007-01-19, 12:38 PM
It's definitely easier for an Arrow to be an Arrow. I like Great, Long and Short Arrows, though, but I tend to make them easier to recover by and large, anyway.

Tormsskull
2007-01-19, 02:30 PM
Interestingly enough, this formula worked for one of my homebrews as well:

Ninja Sword
One-hand Exotic
1d8
19-20/x2
Finesseable
Flurriable

7.5 (if Flurriable is .5)

Question though, I have a homebrewed Ninja class that gets a flurry attack like the monk, so would you say a weapon that is flurriable would be worth .5 or more?

Gralamin
2007-01-19, 03:09 PM
How exactly does the damage die and double weapons work with the Dwarven Urgrosh (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#urgroshDwarven)

edit: also it appears that the Spiked Chain comes out to 9.5 (great as its the strongest weapon in the game). Mind if I try to make a C++ program out of this?

Matthew
2007-01-19, 03:16 PM
Making a Ninja Sword work with Flurry should require a Feat.

Rebonack
2007-01-19, 06:54 PM
Urgrosh... let's see...

I would say take an average of the damage they've got on both sides. In the urgrosh's case that would put it at: (4.5+3.5)/2=4. The crit range boosts it up to 6 and the double weaponness takes it up to 8. The variable damage type puts it at 8.5.

Hrrrmmm... Should be 9.5.

I think I know what happened. My point tally for crits was one point higher in my first version of this; I think I just forgot to update the dual weapons. Dual weapons should go for 3 points, not 2. I'll fix that in the first post.

And go right ahead. Program away.

For Monk weapons all the light ones except the siangham fall in at 5 points without the flurry being taken into account. Since the monk gets proficiency with them anyways (and no one should burn a feat to use them. Ever.) I would say treat them as martial weapons which would thus place the flurry option at .5

Matthew
2007-01-19, 07:18 PM
Those are Exotic Weapons, though. Flurry should be at least 1.0, if not 1.5. There are Feats that allow the use of the Long Sword, Long Spear and Double Sword. All of them require proficiency and Weapon Focus.

I would be very cautious about building flurry weapons. Really, the Class Feature is what makes them available, rather than some aspect of the weapon itself. It should be a facet of this Ninja Base Class that the Class can flurry with a Ninja Sword.

Rebonack
2007-01-19, 08:05 PM
They may be exotic weapons but compare them with the suggested point value of other light exotic weapons. No one in their right mind would ever ever spend a feat for these things. You either use them because you're a monk or you don't use them at all.

In that sense they're more like martial weapons. Martial weapons that only the monk gets proficiencies with. You could just leave them as exotic weapons and say that flurry adds 1.5, but that would greatly boost the quarter staff's point value.

I would prefer to limit the number of outliers.

Matthew
2007-01-19, 08:27 PM
Well, indeed. I suspect the Flurry Ability is not a quality of the Weapon, but of the Class. [i.e. The point value of a weapon is not influenced by whether or not it can be flurried].

Yakk
2007-01-20, 10:58 AM
THS: 2d6 19x2 crit: 9 points
FAL: 2d4 18x2 crit: 8 points
SCY: 2d4 20x4 crit: 8 points

The two handed high-threat weapons are all 8 points.
The "standard" two-handed damage weapon with 2 threat is 9 points.

This implies you are misvaluing two-handed threat points. Try valueing each point of two-handed damage as 1/2 of a point.

Then you get:
THS: 5.5
FAL: 5.5
SCY: 5.5

voila, the standard two-handed sword and the high-threat-range two-handed weapons all line up. Instead of the greataxe being typical, it is now sub-par:

GAX: 5.25

by a small amount, instead of the "standard" weapon being above-par.

If you aren't comphie with halving two-handed weapon damage, you could make threat worth twice as much on two-handed weapons. (justification: two-handed weapons with their power attack and strength bonus leverage deliver criticals much better than any other weapon. To deliver the same amount of bonus to a target via two weapons requires a boatload of feats, and it only works during a standard attack, and not during (say) a leap attack)

Double threat value for 2H weapons results in:
THS: 11
FAL: 11
SCY: 11
GAX: 10.5

Peregrine
2007-01-20, 11:03 AM
But what advantage do you gain, by thus fiddling the numbers to make things even? It misrepresents the power of the weapons. A greataxe is equal to a greatsword (or ever so slightly better). The fact that your numbers say otherwise, indicates that your method is faulty.

Matthew
2007-01-20, 11:22 AM
Actually Yakk, I think the [2D4 x4] and [2D4 18-10 x2] Weapons are inferior to [1D12 x3] and [2D6 19-20 x2] in terms of average Damage, until you reach something like +30 in additional multiplied Damage Bonus.

Here's some working out. It's not complete, but you can see where its going quite easily:

+0 Damage Bonus


[Normal Number of Hits x Average Damage] + [Unconfirmed Critical Hits x Average Damage] + [Confirmed Critical Hits x (Average Damage x Multiplier)

1.
1D10 20/x4 [(360 x 5.5 = 1980) + (0 x 5.5 = 0) + (20 x 22 = 440)] = 2,420
1D12 20/x3 [(360 x 6.5 = 2340) + (0 x 6.5 = 0) + (20 x 19.5 = 390)] = 2,730
1D12 19-20/x2 [(340 x 6.5 = 2210) + (0 x 6.5 = 0) + (40 x 13 = 520)] = 2,730
1D10 18-20/x2 [(320 x 5.5 = 1760) + (0 x 5.5 = 0) + (60 x 11 = 660)] = 2,420

2.
1D10 20/x4 [(360 x 5.5 = 1980) + (1 x 5.5 = 5.5) + (19 x 22 = 418)] = 2,403.5
1D12 20/x3 [(360 x 6.5 = 2340) + (1 x 6.5 = 6.5) + (19 x 19.5 = 370.5)] = 2,717
1D12 19-20/x2 [(340 x 6.5 = 2210) + (2 x 6.5 = 13) + (38 x 13 = 494)] = 2,717
1D10 18-20/x2 [(320 x 5.5 = 1760) + (3 x 5.5 = 16.5) + (57 x 11 = 627)] = 2,403.5

6.
1D10 20/x4 [(280 x 5.5 = 1540) + (5 x 5.5 = 27.5) + (15 x 22 = 330)] = 1,897.5
1D12 20/x3 [(280 x 6.5 = 1820) + (5 x 6.5 = 32.5) + (15 x 19.5 = 292.5)] = 2,145
1D12 19-20/x2 [(260 x 6.5 = 1690) + (10 x 6.5 = 65) + (30 x 13 = 390)] = 2,145
1D10 18-20/x2 [(240 x 5.5 = 1320) + (15 x 5.5 = 82.5) + (45 x 11 = 495)] = 1,897.5

11.
1D10 20/x4 [(180 x 5.5 = 990) + (10 x 5.5 = 55) + (10 x 22 = 220)] = 1,265
1D12 20/x3 [(180 x 6.5 = 1170) + (10 x 6.5 = 65) + (10 x 19.5 = 195)] = 1,430
1D12 19-20/x2 [(160 x 6.5 = 1040) + (20 x 6.5 = 130) + (20 x 13 = 260)] = 1,430
1D10 18-20/x2 [(140 x 5.5 = 770) + (30 x 5.5 = 165) + (30 x 11 = 330)] = 1,265

16.
1D10 20/x4 [(80 x 5.5 = 440) + (15 x 5.5 = 82.5) + (5 x 22 = 110)] = 632.5
1D12 20/x3 [(80 x 6.5 = 520) + (15 x 6.5 = 97.5) + (5 x 19.5 = 97.5)] = 715
1D12 19-20/x2 [(60 x 6.5 = 390) + (30 x 6.5 = 195) + (10 x 13 = 130)] = 715
1D10 18-20/x2 [(40 x 5.5 = 220) + (45 x 5.5 = 247.5) + (15 x 11 = 165)] = 632.5

20.
1D10 20/x4 [(0 x 5.5 = 0) + (19 x 5.5 = 104.5) + (1 x 22 = 22)] = 126.5
1D12 20/x3 [(0 x 6.5 = 0) + (19 x 6.5 = 123.5) + (1 x 19.5 = 19.5)] = 143
1D12 19-20/x2 [(0 x 6.5 = 0) + (19 x 6.5 = 123.5) + (1 x 13 = 13)] = 136.5
1D10 18-20/x2 [(0 x 5.5 = 0) + (19 x 5.5 = 104.5) + (1 x 11 = 11)] = 115.5

+10 Damage Bonus


[Normal Number of Hits x Average Damage] + [Unconfirmed Critical Hits x Average Damage] + [Confirmed Critical Hits x (Average Damage x Multiplier)

1.
1D10 20/x4 [(360 x 15.5 = 5580) + (0 x 15.5 = 0) + (20 x 62 = 1240)] = 6,820
1D12 20/x3 [(360 x 16.5 = 5940) + (0 x 16.5 = 0) + (20 x 49.5 = 990)] = 6,930
1D12 19-20/x2 [(340 x 16.5 = 5610) + (0 x 16.5 = 0) + (40 x 33 = 1320)] = 6,930
1D10 18-20/x2 [(320 x 15.5 = 4960) + (0 x 15.5 = 0) + (60 x 31 = 1860)] = 6,820

2.
1D10 20/x4 [(360 x 15.5 = 5580) + (1 x 15.5 = 15.5) + (19 x 62 = 1178)] = 6,773.5
1D12 20/x3 [(360 x 16.5 = 5940) + (1 x 16.5 = 16.5) + (19 x 49.5 = 940.5)] = 6,897
1D12 19-20/x2 [(340 x 16.5 = 5610) + (2 x 16.5 = 33) + (38 x 33 = 1254)] = 6,897
1D10 18-20/x2 [(320 x 15.5 = 4960) + (3 x 15.5 = 46.5) + (57 x 31 = 1767)] = 6,773.5

6.
1D10 20/x4 [(280 x 15.5 = 4340) + (5 x 15.5 = 77.5) + (15 x 62 = 930)] = 5,347.5
1D12 20/x3 [(280 x 16.5 = 4620) + (5 x 16.5 = 82.5) + (15 x 49.5 = 742.5)] = 5,445
1D12 19-20/x2 [(260 x 16.5 = 4290) + (10 x 16.5 = 165) + (30 x 33 = 990)] = 5,445
1D10 18-20/x2 [(240 x 15.5 = 3720) + (15 x 15.5 = 232.5) + (45 x 31 = 1395)] = 5,347.5

11.

1D10 20/x4 [(180 x 15.5 = 2790) + (10 x 15.5 = 155) + (10 x 62 = 620)] = 3,565
1D12 20/x3 [(180 x 16.5 = 2970) + (10 x 16.5 = 165) + (10 x 49.5 = 495)] = 3,630
1D12 19-20/x2 [(160 x 16.5 = 2640) + (20 x 16.5 = 330) + (20 x 33 = 660)] = 3,630
1D10 18-20/x2 [(140 x 15.5 = 2170) + (30 x 15.5 = 465) + (30 x 31 = 930)] = 3,565

16.
1D10 20/x4 [(80 x 15.5 = 1240) + (15 x 15.5 = 232.5) + (5 x 62 = 310)] = 1,782.5
1D12 20/x3 [(80 x 16.5 = 1320) + (15 x 16.5 = 247.5) + (5 x 49.5 = 247.5)] = 1,815
1D12 19-20/x2 [(60 x 16.5 = 990) + (30 x 16.5 = 495) + (10 x 33 = 330)] = 1,815
1D10 18-20/x2 [(40 x 15.5 = 620) + (45 x 15.5 = 697.5) + (15 x 31 = 465)] = 1,782.5

20.
1D10 20/x4 [(0 x 15.5 = 0) + (19 x 15.5 = 294.5) + (1 x 62 = 62)] = 356.5
1D12 20/x3 [(0 x 16.5 = 0) + (19 x 16.5 = 313.5) + (1 x 49.5 = 49.5)] = 363
1D12 19-20/x2 [(0 x 16.5 = 0) + (19 x 16.5 = 313.5) + (1 x 33 = 33)] = 346.5
1D10 18-20/x2 [(0 x 15.5 = 0) + (19 x 15.5 = 294.5) + (1 x 31 = 31)] = 325.5

+20 Damage Bonus


[Normal Number of Hits x Average Damage] + [Unconfirmed Critical Hits x Average Damage] + [Confirmed Critical Hits x (Average Damage x Multiplier)

1.
1D10 20/x4 [(360 x 25.5 = 9180) + (0 x 25.5 = 0) + (20 x 102 = 2040)] = 11,220
1D12 20/x3 [(360 x 26.5 = 9540) + (0 x 26.5 = 0) + (20 x 79.5 = 1590)] = 11,130
1D12 19-20/x2 [(340 x 26.5 = 9010) + (0 x 26.5 = 0) + (40 x 53 = 2120)] = 11,130
1D10 18-20/x2 [(320 x 25.5 = 8160) + (0 x 25.5 = 0) + (60 x 51 = 3060)] = 11,220

2.
1D10 20/x4 [(360 x 25.5 = 9180) + (1 x 25.5 = 25.5) + (19 x 102 = 1938)] = 11,143.5
1D12 20/x3 [(360 x 26.5 = 9540) + (1 x 26.5 = 26.5) + (19 x 79.5 = 1510.5)] = 11,077
1D12 19-20/x2 [(340 x 26.5 = 9010) + (2 x 26.5 = 53) + (38 x 53 = 2014)] = 11,077
1D10 18-20/x2 [(320 x 25.5 = 8160) + (3 x 25.5 = 76.5) + (57 x 51 = 2907)] = 11,143.5

6.
1D10 20/x4 [(280 x 25.5 = 7140) + (5 x 25.5 = 127.5) + (15 x 102 = 1530)] = 8,797.5
1D12 20/x3 [(280 x 26.5 = 7420) + (5 x 26.5 = 132.5) + (15 x 79.5 = 1192.5)] = 8,745
1D12 19-20/x2 [(260 x 26.5 = 6890) + (10 x 26.5 = 265) + (30 x 53 = 1590)] = 8,745
1D10 18-20/x2 [(240 x 25.5 = 6120) + (15 x 25.5 = 382.5) + (45 x 51 = 2295)] = 8,797.5

11.
2D4 20/x4 [(180 x 25 = 4500) + (10 x 25 = 250) + (10 x 100 = 1000)] = 5,750
1D10 20/x4 [(180 x 25.5 = 4590) + (10 x 25.5 = 255) + (10 x 102 = 1020)] = 5,865
1D12 20/x3 [(180 x 26.5 = 4770) + (10 x 26.5 = 265) + (10 x 79.5 = 795)] = 5,830
1D12 19-20/x2 [(160 x 26.5 = 4240) + (20 x 26.5 = 530) + (20 x 53 = 1060)] = 5,830
1D10 18-20/x2 [(140 x 25.5 = 3570) + (30 x 25.5 = 765) + (30 x 51 = 1530)] = 5,865
2D4 18-20/x2 [(140 x 25 = 3500) + (30 x 25 = 750) + (30 x 50 = 1500)] = 5,750

16.
1D10 20/x4 [(80 x 25.5 = 2040) + (15 x 25.5 = 382.5) + (5 x 102 = 510)] = 2,932.5
1D12 20/x3 [(80 x 26.5 = 2120) + (15 x 26.5 = 397.5) + (5 x 79.5 = 397.5)] = 2,915
1D12 19-20/x2 [(60 x 26.5 = 1590) + (30 x 26.5 = 795) + (10 x 53 = 530)] = 2,915
1D10 18-20/x2 [(40 x 25.5 = 1020) + (45 x 25.5 = 1147.5) + (15 x 51 = 765)] = 2,932.5

20.
1D10 20/x4 [(0 x 25.5 = 0) + (19 x 25.5 = 484.5) + (1 x 102 = 102)] = 586.5
1D12 20/x3 [(0 x 26.5 = 0) + (19 x 26.5 = 503.5) + (1 x 79.5 = 79.5)] = 583
1D12 19-20/x2 [(0 x 26.5 = 0) + (19 x 26.5 = 503.5) + (1 x 53 = 53)] = 556.5
1D10 18-20/x2 [(0 x 25.5 = 0) + (19 x 25.5 = 484.5) + (1 x 51 = 51)] = 535.5

+30 Damage Bonus


[Normal Number of Hits x Average Damage] + [Unconfirmed Critical Hits x Average Damage] + [Confirmed Critical Hits x (Average Damage x Multiplier)

1.
1D10 20/x4 [(360 x 35.5 = 12,780) + (0 x 35.5 = 0) + (20 x 142 = 2,840)] = 15,620
1D12 20/x3 [(360 x 36.5 = 13,140) + (0 x 36.5 = 0) + (20 x 109.5 = 2,190)] = 15,330
1D12 19-20/x2 [(340 x 36.5 = 12,410) + (0 x 36.5 = 0) + (40 x 73 = 2,920)] = 15,330
1D10 18-20/x2 [(320 x 35.5 = 11,360) + (0 x 35.5 = 0) + (60 x 71 = 4,260)] = 15,620

2.
1D10 20/x4 [(360 x 35.5 = 12,780) + (1 x 35.5 = 35.5) + (19 x 142 = 2,698)] = 15,513.5
1D12 20/x3 [(360 x 36.5 = 13,140) + (1 x 36.5 = 36.5) + (19 x 109.5 = 2,080.5)] = 15,257
1D12 19-20/x2 [(340 x 36.5 = 12,410) + (2 x 36.5 = 73) + (38 x 73 = 2,774)] = 15,257
1D10 18-20/x2 [(320 x 35.5 = 11,360) + (3 x 35.5 = 106.5) + (57 x 71 = 4,047)] = 15,513.5

6.
1D10 20/x4 [(280 x 35.5 = 9,940) + (5 x 35.5 = 177.5) + (15 x 142 = 2,130)] = 12,247.5
1D12 20/x3 [(280 x 36.5 = 10,220) + (5 x 36.5 = 182.5) + (15 x 109.5 = 1,642.5)] = 12,045
1D12 19-20/x2 [(260 x 36.5 = 9,490) + (10 x 36.5 = 365) + (30 x 73 = 2,190)] = 12,045
1D10 18-20/x2 [(240 x 35.5 = 8,520) + (15 x 35.5 = 532.5) + (45 x 71 = 3,195)] = 12,247.5

11.
2D4 20/x4 [(180 x 35 = 6,300) + (10 x 35 = 350) + (10 x 140 = 1,400)] = 8,050
1D10 20/x4 [(180 x 35.5 = 6,390) + (10 x 35.5 = 355) + (10 x 142 = 1,420)] = 8,165
1D12 20/x3 [(180 x 36.5 = 6,570) + (10 x 36.5 = 365) + (10 x 109.5 = 1,095)] = 8030
1D12 19-20/x2 [(160 x 36.5 = 5,840) + (20 x 36.5 = 730) + (20 x 73 = 1,460)] = 8030
1D10 18-20/x2 [(140 x 35.5 = 4,970) + (30 x 35.5 = 1065) + (30 x 71 = 2,130)] = 8,165
2D4 18-20/x2 [(140 x 35 = 4,900) + (30 x 35 = 1050) + (30 x 70 = 2,100)] = 8,050

16.
1D10 20/x4 [(80 x 35.5 = 2,840) + (15 x 35.5 = 532.5) + (5 x 142 = 710)] = 4,082.5
1D12 20/x3 [(80 x 36.5 = 2,920) + (15 x 36.5 = 547.5) + (5 x 109.5 = 547.5)] = 4,015
1D12 19-20/x2 [(60 x 36.5 = 2,190) + (30 x 36.5 = 1095) + (10 x 73 = 730)] = 4,015
1D10 18-20/x2 [(40 x 35.5 = 1,420) + (45 x 35.5 = 1,597.5) + (15 x 71 = 1,065)] = 4,082.5

20.
1D10 20/x4 [(0 x 35.5 = 0) + (19 x 35.5 = 674.5) + (1 x 142 = 142)] = 816.5
1D12 20/x3 [(0 x 36.5 = 0) + (19 x 36.5 = 693.5) + (1 x 109.5 = 109.5)] = 803
1D12 19-20/x2 [(0 x 36.5 = 0) + (19 x 36.5 = 693.5) + (1 x 73 = 73)] = 766.5
1D10 18-20/x2 [(0 x 35.5 = 0) + (19 x 35.5 = 674.5) + (1 x 71 = 71)] = 745.5

+40 Damage Bonus


[Normal Number of Hits x Average Damage] + [Unconfirmed Critical Hits x Average Damage] + [Confirmed Critical Hits x (Average Damage x Multiplier)

1.
1D10 20/x4 [(360 x 45.5 = 16,380) + (0 x 45.5 = 0) + (20 x 182 = 3,640)] = 20,020
1D12 20/x3 [(360 x 46.5 = 16,740) + (0 x 46.5 = 0) + (20 x 139.5 = 2,790)] = 19,530
1D12 19-20/x2 [(340 x 46.5 = 15,810) + (0 x 46.5 = 0) + (40 x 93 = 3,720)] = 19,530
1D10 18-20/x2 [(320 x 45.5 = 14,560) + (0 x 45.5 = 0) + (60 x 91 = 5,460)] = 20,020

2.
1D10 20/x4 [(360 x 45.5 = 16,380) + (1 x 45.5 = 45.5) + (19 x 182 = 3,458)] = 19,883.5
1D12 20/x3 [(360 x 46.5 = 16,740) + (1 x 46.5 = 46.5) + (19 x 139.5 = 2,650.5)] = 19,437
1D12 19-20/x2 [(340 x 46.5 = 15,810) + (2 x 46.5 = 93) + (38 x 93 = 3,534)] = 19,437
1D10 18-20/x2 [(320 x 45.5 = 14,560) + (3 x 45.5 = 136.5) + (57 x 91 = 5,187)] = 19,883.5

6.
1D10 20/x4 [(280 x 45.5 = 12,740) + (5 x 45.5 = 227.5) + (15 x 182 = 2,730)] = 15,697.5
1D12 20/x3 [(280 x 46.5 = 13,020) + (5 x 46.5 = 232.5) + (15 x 139.5 = 2.092.5)] = 15,345
1D12 19-20/x2 [(260 x 46.5 = 12,090) + (10 x 46.5 = 465) + (30 x 93 = 2,790)] = 15,345
1D10 18-20/x2 [(240 x 45.5 = 10,920) + (15 x 45.5 = 682.5) + (45 x 91 = 4,095)] = 15,697.5

11.
1D10 20/x4 [(180 x 45.5 = 8,190) + (10 x 45.5 = 455) + (10 x 182 = 1,820)] = 10,465
1D12 20/x3 [(180 x 46.5 = 8,370) + (10 x 46.5 = 465) + (10 x 139.5 = 1,395)] = 10,230
1D12 19-20/x2 [(160 x 46.5 = 7,440) + (20 x 46.5 = 930) + (20 x 93 = 1,860)] = 10,230
1D10 18-20/x2 [(140 x 45.5 = 6,370) + (30 x 45.5 = 1,365) + (30 x 91 = 2,730)] = 10,465

16.
1D10 20/x4 [(80 x 45.5 = 3,640) + (15 x 45.5 = 682.5) + (5 x 182 = 910)] = 5,232.5
1D12 20/x3 [(80 x 46.5 = 3,720) + (15 x 46.5 = 697.5) + (5 x 139.5 = 697.5)] = 5,115
1D12 19-20/x2 [(60 x 46.5 = 2,790) + (30 x 46.5 = 1,395) + (10 x 93 = 930)] = 5,115
1D10 18-20/x2 [(40 x 45.5 = 1,820) + (45 x 45.5 = 2047.5) + (15 x 91 = 1,365)] = 5,232.5

20.
1D10 20/x4 [(0 x 45.5 = 0) + (19 x 45.5 = 864.5) + (1 x 182 = 182)] = 1,046.5
1D12 20/x3 [(0 x 46.5 = 0) + (19 x 46.5 = 883.5) + (1 x 139.5 = 139.5)] = 1,023
1D12 19-20/x2 [(0 x 46.5 = 0) + (19 x 46.5 = 883.5) + (1 x 93 = 93)] = 976.5
1D10 18-20/x2 [(0 x 45.5 = 0) + (19 x 45.5 = 864.5) + (1 x 91 = 91)] = 955.5

+50 Damage Bonus


[Normal Number of Hits x Average Damage] + [Unconfirmed Critical Hits x Average Damage] + [Confirmed Critical Hits x (Average Damage x Multiplier)

1.
1D10 20/x4 [(360 x 55.5 = 19,980) + (0 x 55.5 = 0) + (20 x 222 = 4,440)] = 24,420
1D12 20/x3 [(360 x 56.5 = 20,340) + (0 x 56.5 = 0) + (20 x 169.5 = 3,390)] = 23,730
1D12 19-20/x2 [(340 x 56.5 = 19,210) + (0 x 56.5 = 0) + (40 x 113 = 4,520)] = 23,730
1D10 18-20/x2 [(320 x 55.5 = 17,760) + (0 x 55.5 = 0) + (60 x 111 = 6,660)] = 24,420

2.
1D10 20/x4 [(360 x 55.5 = 19,980) + (1 x 55.5 = 55.5) + (19 x 222 = 4,218)] = 24,253.5
1D12 20/x3 [(360 x 56.5 = 20,340) + (1 x 56.5 = 56.5) + (19 x 169.5 = 3,220.5)] = 23,617
1D12 19-20/x2 [(340 x 56.5 = 19,210) + (2 x 56.5 = 113) + (38 x 113 = 4,294)] = 23,617
1D10 18-20/x2 [(320 x 55.5 = 17,760) + (3 x 55.5 = 166.5) + (57 x 111 = 6,327)] = 24,253.5

6.
1D10 20/x4 [(280 x 55.5 = 15,540) + (5 x 55.5 = 277.5) + (15 x 222 = 3,330)] = 19,147.5
1D12 20/x3 [(280 x 56.5 = 15,820) + (5 x 56.5 = 282.5) + (15 x 169.5 = 2,542.5)] = 18,645
1D12 19-20/x2 [(260 x 56.5 = 14,690) + (10 x 56.5 = 565.0) + (30 x 113 = 3,390)] = 18,645
1D10 18-20/x2 [(240 x 55.5 = 13,320) + (15 x 55.5 = 832.5) + (45 x 111 = 4,995)] = 19,147.5

11.
1D10 20/x4 [(180 x 55.5 = 9,990) + (10 x 55.5 = 555) + (10 x 222 = 2,220)] = 12,765
1D12 20/x3 [(180 x 56.5 = 10,170) + (10 x 56.5 = 565) + (10 x 169.5 = 1,695)] = 12,430
1D12 19-20/x2 [(160 x 56.5 = 9,040) + (20 x 56.5 = 1,130) + (20 x 113 = 2,260)] = 12,430
1D10 18-20/x2 [(140 x 55.5 = 7,770) + (30 x 55.5 = 1,665) + (30 x 111 = 3,330)] = 12.765

16.
1D10 20/x4 [(80 x 55.5 = 4,440) + (15 x 55.5 = 832.5) + (5 x 222 = 1,110)] = 6,382.5
1D12 20/x3 [(80 x 56.5 = 4,520) + (15 x 56.5 = 847.5) + (5 x 169.5 = 847.5)] = 6,215
1D12 19-20/x2 [(60 x 56.5 = 3,390) + (30 x 56.5 = 1,695) + (10 x 113 = 1,130)] = 6,215
1D10 18-20/x2 [(40 x 55.5 = 2,220) + (45 x 55.5 = 2,497.5) + (15 x 111 = 1,665)] = 6,382.5

20.
1D10 20/x4 [(0 x 55.5 = 0) + (19 x 55.5 = 2004.5) + (1 x 222 = 222)] = 2,226.5
1D12 20/x3 [(0 x 56.5 = 0) + (19 x 56.5 = 2023.5) + (1 x 169.5 = 169.5)] = 2,193
1D12 19-20/x2 [(0 x 56.5 = 0) + (19 x 56.5 = 2023.5) + (1 x 113 = 113)] = 2,136.5
1D10 18-20/x2 [(0 x 55.5 = 0) + (19 x 55.5 = 2004.5) + (1 x 111 = 111)] = 2,115.5

+100 Damage Bonus


[Normal Number of Hits x Average Damage] + [Unconfirmed Critical Hits x Average Damage] + [Confirmed Critical Hits x (Average Damage x Multiplier)

1.
1D10 20/x4 [(360 x 105.5 = 37,980) + (0 x 25.5 = 0) + (20 x 422 = 8,440)] = 46,420
1D12 20/x3 [(360 x 106.5 = 38,340) + (0 x 26.5 = 0) + (20 x 319.5 = 6,390)] = 44,730
1D12 19-20/x2 [(340 x 106.5 = 36,210) + (0 x 26.5 = 0) + (40 x 213 = 8,520)] = 44,730
1D10 18-20/x2 [(320 x 105.5 = 33,760) + (0 x 25.5 = 0) + (60 x 211 = 12,660)] = 46,420

2.
1D10 20/x4 [(360 x 105.5 = 37,980) + (1 x 105.5 = 105.5) + (19 x 422 = 8,018)] = 46,103.5
1D12 20/x3 [(360 x 106.5 = 38,340) + (1 x 106.5 = 106.5) + (19 x 319.5 = 6,070.5)] = 44,517
1D12 19-20/x2 [(340 x 106.5 = 36,210) + (2 x 106.5 = 213) + (38 x 213 = 8,094)] = 44,517
1D10 18-20/x2 [(320 x 105.5 = 33,760) + (3 x 105.5 = 316.5) + (57 x 211 = 12,027)] = 46,103.5

6.
1D10 20/x4 [(280 x 105.5 = 29,540) + (5 x 105.5 = 527.5) + (15 x 422 = 6,330)] = 36,397.5
1D12 20/x3 [(280 x 106.5 = 29,820) + (5 x 106.5 = 532.5) + (15 x 319.5 = 4,792.5)] = 35,145
1D12 19-20/x2 [(260 x 106.5 = 27,690) + (10 x 106.5 = 1,065) + (30 x 213 = 6,390)] = 35,145
1D10 18-20/x2 [(240 x 105.5 = 25,320) + (15 x 105.5 = 1,582.5) + (45 x 211 = 9,495)] = 36,397.5

11.
1D10 20/x4 [(180 x 105.5 = 18,990) + (10 x 105.5 = 1,055) + (10 x 422 = 4,220)] = 24,265
1D12 20/x3 [(180 x 106.5 = 19,170) + (10 x 106.5 = 1,065) + (10 x 319.5 = 3,195)] = 23,430
1D12 19-20/x2 [(160 x 106.5 = 17,040) + (20 x 106.5 = 2,130) + (20 x 213 = 4,260)] = 23,430
1D10 18-20/x2 [(140 x 105.5 = 14,770) + (30 x 105.5 = 3,165) + (30 x 211 = 6,330)] = 24,265

16.
1D10 20/x4 [(80 x 105.5 = 8,440) + (15 x 105.5 = 1,582.5) + (5 x 422 = 2,110)] = 12,132.5
1D12 20/x3 [(80 x 106.5 = 8,520) + (15 x 106.5 = 1,597.5) + (5 x 319.5 = 1,597.5)] = 11,715
1D12 19-20/x2 [(60 x 106.5 = 6,390) + (30 x 106.5 = 3,195) + (10 x 213 = 2,130)] = 11,715
1D10 18-20/x2 [(40 x 105.5 = 4,220) + (45 x 105.5 = 4,747.5) + (15 x 211 = 3,165)] = 12,132.5

20.
1D10 20/x4 [(0 x 105.5 = 0) + (19 x 105.5 = 2004.5) + (1 x 422 = 422)] = 2,426.5
1D12 20/x3 [(0 x 106.5 = 0) + (19 x 106.5 = 2023.5) + (1 x 319.5 = 319.5)] = 2,343
1D12 19-20/x2 [(0 x 106.5 = 0) + (19 x 106.5 = 2023.5) + (1 x 213 = 213)] = 2,236.5
1D10 18-20/x2 [(0 x 105.5 = 0) + (19 x 105.5 = 2004.5) + (1 x 211 = 211)] = 2,215.5


It is possible my Math is wrong, but these are the conclusions I drew.

YPU
2007-01-20, 04:56 PM
I am missing something. perhaps this has been brought up already, I haven’t read everything yet. What about double weapons with different damage? Like the urgrosh and the hooked hammer? Do you calculate points per end?
ok, a sugestion no idea if it works.
Normally a double weapon deals the same damage with both ends. If you weaken a head, you gain the points it would normally cost to go from the one to the other dice. These points may not be spend on increasing the dice.

Yakk
2007-01-20, 05:13 PM
First, high-crit range weapons all suck unless you have keen or imp. critical.

Second, a faster way to deal with the math involved with crits is just multiply non-crit damage by (100% + 5% per critical pip), where 20x2 is 1 pip, 19x2 and 20x3 is 2 pips, and 18x2 and 20x4 is 3 pips.

Gr. Axe has the advantage that it's threat range can't be comprimised. It has the disadvantages of a higher variance in critical damage output and a lower average damage and a higher variance in normal damage.

In a game where the heros are expected to win each fight using up a fraction of their resources, variance is the enemy of the heros. Sure, the greataxe will generate impressive crits now and again, but the greatsword will have more reliable crits and more reliable damage.

...

A Falcion (2d4 18x2) vs a Greatsword (2d6 19x2), with +20 damage, and improved crits (and/or keen).
25 * 1.3 = 32.5 average damage per hit from the Falcion.
27 * 1.2 = 32.4 average damage per hit from the Greatsword.

The turning point is around +20 bonus damage.

More importantly, d20 SRD made that the gap between the crit monkey and the non-crit monkey two handed weapons. And d20 SRD considers 19x2 and 20x3 to be equivilent, and 18x2 and 20x4 to be equivilent. It may be the case that one of the two is better or worse in some situations, but this is supposed to be an item point system that balances based off d20 SRD weapons, right?

Matthew
2007-01-20, 06:00 PM
Yakk, I don't think you should calculate damage based on the assumption that every weapon has an improved Critical Range. I get why you would want to, but that shouldn't have any impact on the points needed to build a weapon.

Spikes01k
2007-01-20, 06:11 PM
I just don't get how this system works with a bastard sword? How can that be worked into it's system?

Yakk
2007-01-20, 06:36 PM
*shrug* -- the important part is, the best-approximation for how D&D was balanced does seem to take that into assumption.

Without a decent amount of +damage and keen/imp crit, the "crit monkey" weapons all suck by RAW.

Scimitar with +20 damage:
23.5 * 1.15 = 27.025 damage per hit on average
Longsword with +20 damage:
24.5 * 1.1 = 26.95 damage per hit on average

So without keen/imp crit, you need +20 scimitars and longswords to match up.

With 26 strength and a +4 weapon (to pay for weapons in both hands), you need 8 points of power attack to get a +20 to damage.

It is harder to get +20 damage on a 1 H weapon than it is to get +30 damage on a 2 H weapon.

With imp crit:
13.5 * 1.3 = 17.55
14.5 * 1.2 = 17.4
At +10 damage scimitars and longswords match up.

So, in short:
Keen critmonkey 1 H weapons match 1 H keen non-critmonkey weapons at +10 damage.
Keen critmonkey 2 H weapons match 1 H keen non-critmonkey weapons at +20 damage.
Nonkeen critmonkey 1 H weapons match 2 H nonkeen non-critmonkey weapons at +20 damage.
Nonkeen critmonkey 2 H weapons match 2 H nonkeen non-critmonkey weapons at +30 damage.

The above is by RAW, comparing the SRD "top notch" 1 H and 2 H weapons in both the critmonkey and non-critmonkey subsets.

As a justification for why RAW would have made such a gap:

2 H weapons gain 1.5 x strength bonus and 2x power attack. This makes it easier to get large +damage bonuses on two handed weapons than on one handed weapons. The power of critmonkey weapons is based on leveraging and multiplying large +damage bonuses -- hence two-handed weapons need to have a larger gap between critmonkey and non-critmonkey weapons.

However, the justification is seperate from the observed effect. The observed effect is that they increased the gap on 2 H weapons. If you want to emulate RAW, you should do it as well. If you want to change it, then you should look into the balance.

Matthew
2007-01-20, 07:06 PM
Sure, but the difference between 2D4 (5) and 1D10 (5.5) is very small indeed, whether you expand the Critical Range or not. All you do is change the threshhold from +20 to +30. It's hardly difficult to get +30 Damage with a Two Handed Weapon by the RAW.

Also, is the Math you are using accurate? Does that whole +5% per pip thing take everything into account?

Also, it must be noted that Scythes have an additional ability.


I just don't get how this system works with a bastard sword? How can that be worked into it's system?

Bastard Swords are both 7.5 Two Handed Martial Weapons (i.e. below average) and 7.5 One Handed Exotic Weapons (i.e. average).

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-01-20, 10:29 PM
Gosh darnit, I want to yoink this so bad.
But...I just....can't.

Curse you, math!

Rebonack
2007-01-20, 11:12 PM
As has been pointed out already Yakk, the Scythe doesn't just deal damage. It also can be used as a tripping weapon. And it can deal either slashing or piercing damage. Both of these are .5 point abilities, placing the scythe at 9 points, just like the halberd and the great sword.

The falchion just sucks. Not as much as the great club, but it sucks none the less.

Yakk
2007-01-20, 11:24 PM
It fails if your threat range is shrunk, but other than that, yes it takes everything into account.

Let's pick a random damage: 1d4+13.
Let's pick a random hit target number: 7+
Let's pick a random threat range: 17x4.

Pips: 12. Predicted damage increase: 60%.

So, first, no crits. 7+ is a 14/20 chance to hit, or 70%.
30% chance of 0 damage. 70% chance of 1d4+13 damage.
1d4+13 is an average of 15.5 damage per hit, and 15.5 * 70% = 10.85 damage per swing.

Second, with crits.

First roll:
1-6: (30%) miss, don't roll again.
7-16: (50%) hit, don't roll again. 15.5 average damage.
17-20: (20%) hit, roll again to confirm crit.
+ Second roll (if required):
+ 1-6: (30%*20%) confirmation failed. 15.5 average damage.
+ 7-20: (70%*20%) confirmation succeeded. 62 average damage.

So:
30%: 0 damage
50% + 30%*20% = 56%: 15.5 average damage
70% * 20% = 14%: 62 average damage

Average damage per swing: 8.68+8.68=17.36.
70% of swings hit. Average damage per hit: 24.8 = 17.36 / .7

24.8 / 15.5 = 1.6, or a 60% boost in average damage per hit.
17.36 / 10.85 = 1.6, or 60% boost in average damage per swing.

There is an analogy that also explains what happens. If you always rolled twice, where the first die ignored threat ranges and determined hit/miss, and the second die only paied attention to threat ranges (if and only if second die threatened and first die hit, you crit), you end up with a system that has the same chances as the standard d20 crit system.

Not as good a system for playing, but the same distribution of chances.


...

I did miss that the Scythe can be used to trip. Scythe quickdraw trip combo!

"You see a man walking towards you with 10 Scythes on his back." ;)

Machete
2007-01-20, 11:59 PM
Two-Handed Exotic NOT DOUBLE

Rope Dart

1d4 damage - 2.5 points
x2 critical - 1 point
Tripping weapons - .5 points.
Weapons that grant a +2 to disarm checks - .5 points.
Reach weapons add 1 point. - 3 points continuous threatening out for 15 feet
Reach weapons that threaten adjacent squares add 2 points. (Includes the 1 point for standard reach weapons) - 1 point for threatened areas
-Non-light weapons that can be used with weapon finesse - .5 points.

9 points

It feels like I did this wrong. Is this right?

Rebonack
2007-01-21, 12:15 AM
I did miss that the Scythe can be used to trip. Scythe quickdraw trip combo!

"You see a man walking towards you with 10 Scythes on his back." ;)

Which means that using your suggestion regarding tallying criticals would place the falchion even with the great sword and the scythe above the 9 point mark. It also throws all the other non-damage only weapons well out of 'whack'.

Since My purpose was to create a streamlined, easy to understand system and to eliminate outliers as much as possible I'm going to have to say that your idea, though it may be sound in terms of calculating power when Keen and massive amounts of base damage are concerned, has no bearing on the proper balancing of base weapons.




Rope Dart
8 points

It feels like I did this wrong. Is this right?


1d4 damage (2.5)
x2 crit (1)
Trip Weapon (.5)
+2 Disarm (.5)
Weapon Finessable (.5)
Reach Weapon that threatens adjacent squares (2)

2.5+1+.5+.5+.5+2=7

What type of weapons is this supposed to be? Two-handed or one-handed?

Machete
2007-01-21, 12:23 AM
Two handed exotic. Not a double weapon. I just rechecked everything, maybe I could extend the range. Yes, I think I will.

Wielding the thing is all about finesse or alternatively all about poking your own eyes out, whichever happens first.

Yakk
2007-01-21, 10:23 AM
My First Abusive Weapon:
2 H weapon with 1d10 damage and 18x3 criticals.

My Second Abusive Weapon:
1 H martial weapon that does 1d2 points of damage and 16x2 criticals. (Made keen with even a moderate +damage bonus, and it is the best weapon in the game.)

My "I win the damage game" Abusive Weapon:
2 H martial weapon that does 1d2-1 points of damage and has 17x3 criticals.

...

Let's start with a 22(+6) strength character, and a +3 enchantment, and 15 BaB, and +2 in random other bonus/enchantments/etc to hit and +4 to damage.

+26 to hit +16 to damage with a 2 H weapon.

Average hit with a keen "the abuser":
(0.5 + 16) * 1.8 = 29.7
before power attacks.

Average hit with a keen greatsword:
(7+16) * 1.2 = 27.6
before power attacks.

Average damage gain on a hit per point of power attack:
GreatSword: 2.4
TheAbuser: 3.6

At +30 to damage
Keen GS: 44.4
Keen TA: 54.4

With keen, The Abuser and a GreatSword average damage intersects at +12.5 bonus damage.
Without keen, The Abuser and GreatSword average damage intersects at +23.3 bonus damage.

I don't understand the usefulness of a point buy system that both doesn't reflect the SRD weapon table, and makes rather abusive weapon builds seem acceptable.

But anyhow, I'll accept that your goal isn't reflecting the SRD, nor is it avoiding abusive weapons. Your system may be useful for building "mostly typical" weapons (ie, not far from the existing beaten path) which can be fudged up or down after comparing with SRD weapons.

Matthew
2007-01-21, 11:08 AM
Yakk, you can't have a 18-20/x3 Weapon. They are totally forbidden in the PHB. Also, that's an 11.5 Point Weapon, where 10 is the maximum points allowed in this system.

This table does reflect the weapons in the SRD. The only bone of contention is whether a [1D10 x4] Weapon should be legal or not.

I don't know whether [20/x5] or [20/x6] [16-20/x2] Critical Ranged Weapons are allowed or not, but somehow I doubt it.

The point in this table is to allow people to judge whether their homebrewed weaponry deviates very much from the norm.

Peregrine
2007-01-21, 11:50 AM
First, high-crit range weapons all suck unless you have keen or imp. critical.

Are you saying that this is because the high-range weapons have weaknesses compared to the high-multiplier weapons (e.g. the falchion lacks the scythe's trip ability and multiple damage types), or because high threat range is itself the weakness compared to high multiplier? Your own arguments on variance seem to suggest that the latter is false, but if you're arguing the former, it's really irrelevant to the matter of pointwise balancing of weapons. A falchion should be shown by this system to have fewer points than a scythe.

Or do you just mean that a weapon like the scimitar, which trades the damage die of the longsword for a higher threat range, is inferior to the longsword? You're right, read on for proof. (But be aware that this applies to all high crit 'pip' weapons, regardless of whether it's a high threat range or crit multiplier.)


Second, a faster way to deal with the math involved with crits is just multiply non-crit damage by (100% + 5% per critical pip), where 20x2 is 1 pip, 19x2 and 20x3 is 2 pips, and 18x2 and 20x4 is 3 pips.

Danger! Heavy maths ahead! :eek:

I would guess that this is an effective shortcut that uses valid assumptions, and produces results that preserve the ordering of weapons from highest value to lowest value. I use assumptions like that all the time. This time, though, I actually did a full analysis of the average damage of the five possible weapons (as classified by crit stats), as a function of minimum to-hit roll necessary and of to-damage bonus, and then tested the figures for different mean base damage rolls. I believe my results are valid for weapons with better crit stats than the basic five (i.e. with more than 3 crit 'pips', such as from Improved Critical), and for base damage dice other than those tested.

Let M be the mean base damage roll of the weapon (e.g. 2d4 -> M=5)
Let C be the number of crit 'pips' the weapon has (e.g. 20/x4 = 4)
Let H be the difference between the to-hit roll required to hit a target, and 11* (e.g. 12 -> +1).
Let D be the character's total mean bonus to damage.
Let T be the total mean damage the character deals with this weapon.

I've found (and you can take my word for it :smalltongue:) that:

T = (M/2 + D/2 + C[M/20 + D/20]/2) − H(M/20 + D/20 + C[M/20 + D/20]/20)

(This formula is only valid for values of H where H+11 is strictly less than the lower bound of the weapon's threat range, i.e. all critical threats are at least hits.)

From this we see...
T ∝ M + D (i.e. base weapon damage is less relevant as bonuses to damage rise... but that's a given.)
T ∝ 1 + C/20 (i.e. each crit 'pip' increases damage by 5% of the baseline; this proves Yakk's 'faster way' to work out crits.)
T ∝ 1 − H/10 (i.e. each change in the to-hit roll needed changes damage by 10% of the baseline.)

We also see that, while the validity of this formula holds, crit 'pips' are perfectly equal however they are spent. That is, a high-multiplier weapon has the same total mean damage as a high-threat range weapon, all else being equal. And furthermore, crit 'pips' increase damage by a percentage of the baseline, explaining the discrepancy in Improved Critical improvements. A 20/x2 weapon, at 105%** of the baseline, will only improve to 110%. A 20/x4 or 18-20/x2 weapon, at 115% of the baseline, will improve to 130%. (A more balanced Improved Critical would increase crit pips by a fixed amount. But this would now benefit low-pip weapons slightly more; 5% on top of 105% is better than the same on top of 115%. To be equal, the 20/x4 weapon should gain about 1.1 pips, but there's no such thing as a fractional crit pip.)

And we see that base weapon damage and bonuses to damage contribute in exact proportion to each other; that is, if you have a weapon that deals 2d6 damage, you will have the same total mean damage as a wielder of a 2d4 weapon who has a damage bonus +2 higher than yours, all else being equal. All this +20/+30 business comes from comparing unlike weapons (specifically, different crit pips).

Let's use the formula to do this comparing of unlike weapons: the scimitar (M=3.5, C=3) and longsword (M=4.5, C=2), as Yakk did. Assuming equal hit chances...

Tscim = 2.0125 + 0.575D
Tlong = 2.475 + 0.55D

These values are equal at D = +18.5 (very close to Yakk's figure of +20). The scimitar is superior at +19 or more; the longsword is superior at +18 or less. This proves that an increase in the mean of the base damage dice is worth substantially more than an increase in crit pips. Well done Yakk.

Hey, let's generalise this and work out Dbal, the damage bonus at which a certain difference in C and M is balanced, assuming equal H.

T = Ma/2 + Dbal/2 + CaMa/40 + CaDbal/40
= Mb/2 + Dbal/2 + CbMb/40 + CbDbal/40

[...skip working...]

Dbal = (20[Ma − Mb] + [CaMa − CbMb]) / (Cb − Ca)

Thus the difference in base weapon damage is much more important (about 20 times more important) than the difference in crits, for this purpose. And there's the product of C and M appearing in there to complicate things.

I sometimes wonder if the development teams for Wizards of the Coast run their products through this sort of maths...


Gr. Axe has the advantage that it's threat range can't be comprimised. It has the disadvantages of a higher variance in critical damage output and a lower average damage and a higher variance in normal damage.

Oops, my bad. I forgot that the greatsword and greataxe use different dice. Bad comparison.

The greatsword is the most damaging weapon bar none. Or at least, you need a +39 damage bonus with a scythe or falchion to match it. That's cut down to a +18 if you have Improved Critical, or the weapons are keen, or whatever.

(You need a whopping +74 damage bonus with a scimitar to beat the greatsword, assuming you're wielding the scimitar two-handed like the greatsword. Or half that, a mere +37, with Improved Critical.)


In a game where the heros are expected to win each fight using up a fraction of their resources, variance is the enemy of the heros. Sure, the greataxe will generate impressive crits now and again, but the greatsword will have more reliable crits and more reliable damage.

I openly admit to not accounting for variance in my comparisons -- because I have no way of quantifying its effect. I am fine with accepting the assertion that 'more randomness [= higher variance] favours the underdogs, which are usually not the PCs', but unless I have a way to quantify and balance that, I will stick with using only the mean as a comparison.

* 11 was chosen as the arbitrary base because it means 50% of attacks miss. This is why there's all those neat factors of 1/2.
** Yes, there is no such thing as a weapon on the baseline; this is a consequence of the crit pip counting method.

YPU
2007-01-21, 12:37 PM
To high damage and to high crits seem to be the main comment here. I suggest you ad in a max on these. Here’s my suggestion: sorry I don’t have any ranks in create table skill

These are the maximum stats, no part of a weapon might go over any of these. I no idea for the ranged weapons

Simple weapons
Light 1d6 19-20 x3
One handed 1d8 19-20 x3
Two handed 1d10 19-20 x3

Martial weapons
Light 1d8 18-20 x3
One handed 1d8 18-20 x4
Two handed 1d12/ d26 18-20 x4

Exotic weapons
Light I have nothing to base this on, and continuing the line doesn’t seem right. 1d10 for a light weapon. No way.
One handed 1d10 18-20 x4
Two handed again, no idea.

Matthew
2007-01-21, 12:37 PM
Very interesting Peregrine and well worked out (beyond what I am capable of doing and somewhat beyond what I can understand).

I doubt Wizards did much with the Maths, especially considering Improved Critical and Keen Weapons used to stack.

However, what does this mean for the point buying method? Should a 1D10 20/x4 or 1D10 18-20/x2 Weapon be allowed or should Two Handed Medium sized Weapons with 20/x4 or 18-20/x2 be capped at 2D4?

YPU:

2D6 is better than 1D12.

Yakk
2007-01-21, 12:56 PM
Yakk, you can't have a 18-20/x3 Weapon. They are totally forbidden in the PHB. Also, that's an 11.5 Point Weapon, where 10 is the maximum points allowed in this system.

x3-1 = 2, (18-20) is 3 points.
3*2 = 6.
.5 damage, results in 6.5 point weapon.

Did I miss something?

And yes, that weapon should never exist. :)


The point in this table is to allow people to judge whether their homebrewed weaponry deviates very much from the norm.

Ah, got it.


re you saying that this is because the high-range weapons have weaknesses compared to the high-multiplier weapons (e.g. the falchion lacks the scythe's trip ability and multiple damage types), or because high threat range is itself the weakness compared to high multiplier? Your own arguments on variance seem to suggest that the latter is false, but if you're arguing the former, it's really irrelevant to the matter of pointwise balancing of weapons. A falchion should be shown by this system to have fewer points than a scythe.

I'm saying that because I can't type what I mean. :)

I meant (high crit pips), not (high crit range). A 20x4 weapon has 3 crit pips. A 18x2 weapon has 3 crit pips. A 19x2 weapon and 20x3 weapon has 2 crit pips. A 20x2 weapon has 1 crit pip.

I was trying to avoid using the term "pips", and failed to translate properly. :)


I openly admit to not accounting for variance in my comparisons -- because I have no way of quantifying its effect. I am fine with accepting the assertion that 'more randomness [= higher variance] favours the underdogs, which are usually not the PCs', but unless I have a way to quantify and balance that, I will stick with using only the mean as a comparison.

Which is why I consider the battle between "crit width" and "crit height" to be a wash. The G.Axe gets to crit better on "only hit on a 20", and the G.Sword gets to deliver crit damage more reliably on everyone else. Two different forms of reliability. :)

And quantifying for variance is hard.

...

Note that I contend that crit monkey weapons suck ass if you don't have imp. crit or keen.

But once you do, they rapidly become competative or better than standard weapons.

A Keen Scim matches nonKeen LS damage at +2 damage.
A Keen Scim matches Keen LS damage at +8.5 damage.
A Keen Falchion matches nonKeen GS damage at +6 damage.
A Keen Falchion matches Keen GS damage at +19 damage.

At what point does Keen Critmonkey do 3 more damage per hit than the nonKeen standard weapon?

Keen Scim gets .2 more damage per point of bonus than nonKeen LS, and matches at +2. So:

A Keen Scim does 2 more avg damage/hit than a nonKeen LS at +12 damage.
A Keen Scim does 3 more avg damage/hit than a nonKeen LS at +17 damage.
A Keen Falchion does 2 more avg damage/hit than a nonKeen GS at +16 damage.
A Keen Falchion does 3 more avg damage/hit than a nonKeen GS at +21 damage.
A Keen Falchion does 4 more avg damage/hit than a nonKeen GS at +25 damage.
A Keen Falchion does 6 more avg damage/hit than a nonKeen GS at +35 damage.

So, when deciding if a character should use keen critmonkey, or nonkeen noncritmonkey, one should decide "how much damage is a +1 enchantment, or 1 feat, worth? How much damage do I expect to do on a swing vs. a dangerous opponent?"

...

Given that the Scythe has a special that the Falchion lacks, possibly 2H crit pips should be worth 1.5, and the Falchion should be 1d10 18x2 instead of 2d4 18x2.

Oh, and the G. Axe needs a half-point boost. :) I'd go with "+2 damage bonus when used to sunder".

YPU
2007-01-21, 01:00 PM
Ok, I’m not sure so this is for myself

1d12

1 1
2 3
3 6
4 10
5 15
6 21
7 28
8 36
9 45
10 55
11 66
12 78

78/12= 6,5

2d6
1+2+3+4+5+6= 21
1X6=6 6+21= 27
2X6=12 12+21=33
3X6=18 18+21=39
4X6=24 24+21=45
5X6=30 30+21=51
6X6=36 36+21=57
21+27+33+39+45+51+57=273
6x6=36
273/36=7,58(1/3)
Thats 1 and a tiny bit more damage on evarange, jup. Its good for me to know that.

Matthew
2007-01-21, 01:17 PM
x3-1 = 2, (18-20) is 3 points.
3*2 = 6.
.5 damage, results in 6.5 point weapon.

Did I miss something?

And yes, that weapon should never exist. :)


Average Damage + [(Multiplier -1) x Range]

i.e.

1D10 18-20/x3 is

5.5 + (2 x 3) = 11.5

...at least that's my understanding of this system.

YPU:

Do remember it's only average damage; you still have a much better chance of getting a 12 on 1D12 than 2D6 on any given roll.

Peregrine
2007-01-21, 01:38 PM
However, what does this mean for the point buying method? Should a 1D10 20/x4 or 1D10 18-20/x2 Weapon be allowed or should Two Handed Medium sized Weapons with 20/x4 or 18-20/x2 be capped at 2D4?

It's hard to say. As Yakk points out, such a 1d10 20/x4 weapon would be weaker than a 1d12 20/x3 weapon, to begin with, unless you had a damage bonus of +17 or better... but once you add Improved Critical or an equivalent effect, the necessary damage bonus becomes much lower, only +6.

In the extreme cases, you can say, 'Well, that damage bonus is so high, the weapon's own damage roll doesn't really count for much any more.' But at these numbers, it does count: a 1d10+6 roll comes roughly half from the 1d10, half from the +6.

So I guess my recommendation would be, keep the point system as it is. It leaves a number of weapons weaker than indicated for general purposes, but quite munchkinable. Adjusting point values in either direction would be difficult. (In short, I've proven Yakk right in the maths, but disagreed with his conclusion. :smallwink:)

Now, if we venture into house rules territory, and revise Improved Critical to only expand crit range by 1...

Matthew
2007-01-21, 01:45 PM
Heh, yes. House Rules, House Rules. It's a wonder there is no Feat that improves Multiplier, then we might really see some problems...

Peregrine
2007-01-21, 01:53 PM
Heh, yes. House Rules, House Rules. It's a wonder there is no Feat that improves Multiplier, then we might really see some problems...

It's silly really, given that all D&D multipliers are supposed to add, that the Improved Critical Feat bucks the trend. It's fairly obvious that it should have only added 1.

I used to think it did, until someone here gently pointed out to me that 19-20 is not 'double' range, but merely a range of 'two'. Thus, it doesn't follow the doubled doubling rules; it becomes 17-20, not 18-20. Until I discovered that, I vehemently maintained that high-multiplier weapons were far more powerful than high-range ones, because they benefited much more from Improved Critical.

If I houseruled Improved Critical to just add 1, I would add that 1 to threat range (if the weapon already has a high range) or to multiplier (if the weapon already has a high multiplier). For 20/x2 weapons, I guess since it's a feat (thus representing the character's skill), it's up to the character to decide where to put the boost. But while this system would make the stacking of keen and Improved Critical (to threat range only) quite acceptable, boosting the multiplier and threat range on the same weapon would be very much disallowed.

The downside to this house rule is that it means good-crit weapons are now inferior at the outset, and even more inferior (instead of suddenly, painfully superior) once Improved Critical comes in.

Matthew
2007-01-21, 02:02 PM
Yes, I realised that a few seconds after posting it... as you can see by my invisible deletion; never mind, yes the range should probably only increase in kind (i.e. x3 Weapons become x4, 19-20 Weapons become 18-20, etc...), though your idea of allowing Player Character's have the choice could also work

The Critical Rules have always bothered me. Far too much variability.

Yakk
2007-01-21, 03:17 PM
Gah! Sorry, the first abusive weapon was supposed to be
"My First Abusive Weapon:
2 H weapon with 1d10 damage and 18x2 criticals."
which explains why I'm on crack. :)

And I get that this can be useful to get you into the "ball park".

...

Note that there is a really damn easy way to find out the average of a single die.

average of 1dX is (1+X)/2
average of 2dX is twice that -- 1+X.

So 1d12 is average 6.5 ( (12+1)/2 ).
2d6 is average 7 (3.5 * 2)

Triaxx
2007-01-21, 03:19 PM
Multiplier feats could become incredibly dangerous. A spike chain would fall back in it's standings, to the suddenly extremely powerful Rapier.

YPU
2007-01-21, 03:29 PM
average of 1dX is (1+X)/2
average of 2dX is twice that -- 1+X.

So 1d12 is average 6.5 ( (12+1)/2 ).
2d6 is average 7 (3.5 * 2)
Im not sure why i came up with the 7.58333333333333333333333333333333333
But Im pretty sure its right. not any difference you would notice in game.
Now that we have all the math wizards and dice sorcerers around, how do you calculate the average of a number of dice where you drop a number of the lowest numbers 4d6 the lowest for instance. But how would you do it if you for instance rolled 5d6 and dropped the 2 lowest? I was wondering about it a few weeks ago in math lessons.

Bobbis
2007-01-21, 03:50 PM
Gunblade, 2H weapon;
Blade Portion: 1d8 19-20/x2 Slashing
Crossbow Portion: 1d8 19-20/x2 Range Inc 50 feet Piercing

The gunblade is a combination repeating crossbow and longsword; as part of a full attack action the user can use either the blade portion or the crossbow portion for any attack, provided there are bolts remaining in the 5 bolt hopper. When a bolt is fired off the next one automatically slides into position. It is a full round action to reload the hopper. The weapon can never be used one handed, and does not qualify for two weapon fighting feats.

(1d8+1d8)/2 (4.5) + 2 for crit range, +2.5 for 50 feet of range, +.5 for variable damage types. = 9.5?

Yakk
2007-01-21, 06:06 PM
No YPU, 2d6 is an average of 7. 3.5 per d6. Somewhere in your convoluted math you made a mistake -- I don't know what you are doing in your math, so I can't find the mistake. :)

Gralamin
2007-01-21, 11:24 PM
Programmed Version, Beta 1
Ok, How I have the code right now is a calculator for it, thats pretty badly coded in terms of clarity but I went for one file. I recommend you download Dev-C++ if you wish to use this (just go file new, and copy all of this into the .cpp then press f9.)



/*----------------------------------------------------------------------------*\
||----------------------------------------------------------------------------||
|| D&D Custom Weapon Generator ||
|| C++ Code by: Glen Nelson (Gralamin Shieldheart) ||
|| ||
|| This is a DOS program for generating D&D Weapons, Its based on a system by ||
|| Rebonack. The system is detailed here: ||
|| http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31817. ||
|| I will attempt to make a more user friendly version in the near future. ||
||----------------------------------------------------------------------------||
\*----------------------------------------------------------------------------*/

#include <iostream>

// Using Functions in this file, I know I should have them in a header file :P
int funcConfirm(char charAnswer)
{
if (charAnswer == 'y' || charAnswer == 'Y'){return 1;}
if (charAnswer == 'n' || charAnswer == 'N'){return 0;}
}

float funcAbility(char charAnswer)
{
if (charAnswer == 'y' || charAnswer == 'Y'){return 0.5;}
if (charAnswer == 'n' || charAnswer == 'N'){return 0;}
}

int funcType(char charAnswer, char charA, char chara, char charB, char charb, char charC, char charc)
{
if (charAnswer == charA || charAnswer == chara){return 1;}
if (charAnswer == charB || charAnswer == charb){return 2;}
if (charAnswer == charC || charAnswer == charc){return 3;}
}

float funcPointsNeeded(int intA, int intB)
{
//Giving an extra .5. This makes a maximum of 10 on a weapon, and allows for a bit more leeway
if (intA == 1 && intB == 1){return 5;}
if (intA == 1 && intB == 2){return 6;}
if (intA == 1 && intB == 3){return 8;}

if (intA == 2 && intB == 1){return 6;}
if (intA == 2 && intB == 2){return 7;}
if (intA == 2 && intB == 3){return 9;}

if (intA == 3 && intB == 1){return 7;}
if (intA == 3 && intB == 2){return 8;}
if (intA == 3 && intB == 3){return 10;}
}

int main()
{
//Declare Variables
float floatPoints = 0;
float floatTarget = 0;
float floatDieDamage[2] = {0,0};
char charAnswer;
char charWeaponName[15];
char charFileName[19];
int intToAdd = 0;
int intCritMod = 0;
int intCritRange = 0;
int intRange = 0;
bool boolFinish = false; // used to check for Output.

// Type[0] will represent Simple (1), Martial (2), or Exotic (3).
// Type[1] will represent Light (1), One-handed (2), or two-handed (3)
int intWeaponType[2] = {0,0};

// This will be used for a while loop.
int intWhileLoop = 0;

//Namespaces
using namespace std;

while (intWhileLoop == 0)
{
floatPoints = 0;

cout << "What type of Weapon are you trying to create?\n";
cout << "(S)imple, (M)artial, or (E)xotic?\n";
cin >> charAnswer;
intWeaponType[0] = funcType(charAnswer, 'S', 's', 'M', 'm', 'E', 'e');

cout << "\nIs it a (L)ight, (O)ne-handed, or (T)wo-handed?\n";
cin >> charAnswer;
intWeaponType[1] = funcType(charAnswer, 'L', 'l', 'O', 'o', 'T', 't');

cout << "\nIs this a monk weapon?\n";
cin >> charAnswer;

if ((funcConfirm(charAnswer)) == 1)
{
intWeaponType[0] = 2;
floatPoints = floatPoints + 0.5;
}

floatTarget = funcPointsNeeded(intWeaponType[0], intWeaponType[1]);

cout << "\nYour maximum amount of points is: " << floatTarget << "\n\n";
cout << "Is your Weapon a double Weapon? (Y/N)\n";
cin >> charAnswer;

intToAdd = funcConfirm(charAnswer);

cout << "What is your first damage dice average damage?\n";
cin >> floatDieDamage[0];

if (intToAdd == 1)
{
floatPoints = floatPoints + 3;
cout << "What is your second damage dice average damage?\n";
cin >> floatDieDamage[1];

floatPoints = floatPoints + ((floatDieDamage[1] + floatDieDamage[0])/2);
}
if (intToAdd == 0)
{
floatPoints = floatPoints + (floatDieDamage[0]);
}

cout << "What is The Critical Range?\n";
cout << "(a) 20, (b) 19-20, (c) 18-20?\n";
cin >> charAnswer;

intCritRange = funcType(charAnswer, 'A', 'a', 'B', 'b', 'C', 'c');

cout << "What is The Critical Modifer?\n";
cout << "(a) x2, (b) x3, (c) x4?\n";
cin >> charAnswer;

intCritMod = funcType(charAnswer, 'A', 'a', 'B', 'b', 'C', 'c');

floatPoints = floatPoints + (intCritMod * intCritRange);

cout << "If this is a range weapon, enter it's range (to the nearest";
cout << " 10 feet, Else enter 0)\n";
cin >> intRange;

floatPoints = floatPoints + (intRange / 20);

cout << "\nIs this a Tripping Weapon?\n";
cin >> charAnswer;
floatPoints = floatPoints + funcAbility(charAnswer);

cout << "\nDoes This weapon grant a +2 to Disarm Checks?\n";
cin >> charAnswer;
floatPoints = floatPoints + funcAbility(charAnswer);

cout << "\nDoes This weapon Have Variable Damage Types?\n";
cin >> charAnswer;
floatPoints = floatPoints + funcAbility(charAnswer);

if (intWeaponType[1] != 1)
{
cout << "\nDoes this weapon have Weapon finesse applyed to it?\n";
cin >> charAnswer;
floatPoints = floatPoints + funcAbility(charAnswer);
}

if (intWeaponType[0] == 1)
{
cout << "\nIs it free?\n";
cin >> charAnswer;
floatPoints = floatPoints + funcAbility(charAnswer);
}

cout << "\nDoes This weapon Deal Double damage on a charge?\n";
cin >> charAnswer;
floatPoints = floatPoints + 2*(funcAbility(charAnswer));

cout << "\nDoes This Weapon has Reach?\n";
cin >> charAnswer;
floatPoints = floatPoints + 2*(funcAbility(charAnswer));

if (funcConfirm(charAnswer) == 1)
{
cout << "\nDoes This Weapon threaten adjacent Squares?\n";
cin >> charAnswer;
floatPoints = floatPoints + 2*(funcAbility(charAnswer));
}

cout << "\n\nThis Weapon costs " << floatPoints << " Points.\n";
cout << "\nYour Goal was " << floatTarget << " Points.\n";

system("PAUSE");

cout << "\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n";
}
system("PAUSE");
return EXIT_SUCCESS;
}



It currently doesn't output, I'm working on adding that in.

Test:
Simple, Light, Monk: no (maximum of 5)
Double: Y
Average1: 1.5, Average 2: 1.5
Critical: a (20)
Critical Range: a (x2)
Range: 0
Tripping: Y
Everything else: N
Comes to: 5
Target: 1.5
*blink* how did that happen? *goes searching over code*

Edit: Ok that shouldn't be happening, have anyone have any idea why?

Time for Manual Math:
Double = 3
Average points = 1.5 (4.5 total)
critical = 1 (5.5 total)
Range = 0
Tripping = 0.5 (6 total)

So The Total should be 6, and Target should be 5...

Test 2:
S, L, n (5)
n
1
a
a
0
nx6

Weapon costs 1 (should cost 2), Goal works... o.0

Edit3ish - Fixed Critical, now what happened for the target in test one

Edit ^ + 1 - ok, so Damage Die 2 has to do with it...

Edit ^ + 1 - ....Right C++ uses [x] as the actual size, without counting 0s....

Edit Final for this post: ok, so now it should work as a calculator.

Peregrine
2007-01-21, 11:28 PM
Now that we have all the math wizards and dice sorcerers around, how do you calculate the average of a number of dice where you drop a number of the lowest numbers 4d6 the lowest for instance. But how would you do it if you for instance rolled 5d6 and dropped the 2 lowest? I was wondering about it a few weeks ago in math lessons.

I really don't know any way, except brute force (i.e. list all outcomes) or something close to it, to work this out.

So I brute-forced it. :smallwink: Actually I did this some time ago, and with the help of a small computer program that took a few minutes to write and all of a few moments to run.

Now, I think I still have the results around here somewhere...

...you know what, I can't find it. So what's there to do but program it again? :smallbiggrin:

The number of rolls that can result in a particular score (out of 1296 possible rolls) are:
{table]Score|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10|11|12|13|14|15|16|17|18
Rolls|1|4|10|21|38|62|91|122|148|167|172|160|131|9 4|54|21[/table]

So the mean is 12.24, the mode is 13, and the median is 12.

As for your 5d6 drop two lowest question...
{table]Score|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10|11|12|13|14|15|16|17|18
Rolls|1|5|15|41|90|170|296|470|665|881|1055|1155|1 111|935|610|276[/table]
...out of 7,776 possible rolls. Now, the mean is 13.43, the mode is 14, and the median is... okay, my calculator doesn't want to give me the median, but by my own calculations, it's 14. (This method roughly doubles your chance of getting an 18, to about 3.5%.)

Rebonack
2007-01-22, 01:23 AM
As far as abusing high crit range by lowering average damage that can be averted with minimum damage.

Light: 1d4
One Handed: 1d6
Two Handed: 1d8

That should help.

Remember, this system is designed to give people a good guideline to use when making home brew weapons. If someone is setting out to make broken weapons then I can't stop them =P

YPU
2007-01-22, 03:20 AM
Wow, yea I only know the brute force myself, but didn’t have the guts, nor the space in my math notebook. Tnx, that helps a lot peregrine.

Norsesmithy
2007-01-22, 07:21 PM
What would you price an ability to control your opponent with a strength check, and the pull it back out damage of something like a harpoon?

Keep in mind that getting embedded prevents iterative attacks.

Rebonack
2007-01-22, 11:48 PM
I don't touch ranged weapons on principle.

I would say just use the Arctic Harpoon from Races of Faerun since it does exactly what you're describing and it's an exotic weapon already.