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Doomboy911
2013-12-07, 01:41 AM
Or doing Twilight Sparkle proud.

So my buddy has us playing in a game and we have a moment where we see a dragon but just the eye, the paladin lets us know it's evil, than it breathes fire on us which helps me think it's a red dragon. Now we've been given a chance to rest and pick some spells.

The dm has screwed himself, I have three spells which make it so this dragon literally cannot touch us.

In the sheer joy of this moment tell me a story of when you had a chance to prepare for trouble.

hymer
2013-12-07, 07:17 AM
Never laugh at live dragons, Doomboy. :smallwink:

Greywarden
2013-12-07, 08:11 AM
Never laugh at live dragons, Doomboy. :smallwink: Yup, in this case the dragon has the chance to prepare as well... in the simplest case, the dragon only needs to be able to outlast the duration of your vaunted spells.

Doomboy911
2013-12-07, 11:38 AM
Yup, in this case the dragon has the chance to prepare as well... in the simplest case, the dragon only needs to be able to outlast the duration of your vaunted spells.

resist energy

Protection from energy

protection from evil

these spells last over ten minutes.

Alejandro
2013-12-07, 11:46 AM
resist energy

Protection from energy

protection from evil

these spells last over ten minutes.

Sooo... Dragon attacks you, you cast these spells, it promptly disengages and comes back in twenty minutes. Remember, dragons are geniuses. Unless you can physically trap it (good luck with that) it doesn't have to sit there and let you have your spells.

Also, those spells won't protect you from indirect damage. What if the dragon, say, causes a cave in on your heads? Or floods your tunnel with water? Or burns up all your oxygen?

Andrewmoreton
2013-12-07, 11:51 AM
resist energy

Protection from energy

protection from evil

these spells last over ten minutes.
None of those stop the Dragon eating you. +2 AC helps a bit . The Energy protection is far from invulnerable , the dragon makes repeating strafing runs unless you have good ranged attacks you take a lot of fire damage the fire damage absorption runs out and you have only a limited amount of Fire reistance then it burns you to death.
I just TPK'd a party with a (CR Appropriate) Black dragon who used the same set of protective spells.
It is a good preparation, and combined with good tactics should enable you to win but if the Dragon uses better tactics it will still wipe you out

Doomboy911
2013-12-07, 01:00 PM
Well we have DR 30 for fire and the dragon did about 40 damage with his breath weapon so it won't do that much damage.

Also if the dragon decides to disengage we can push on further down the dungeon, we're after something so the dragon can either stop us along the way while we're buffed or we can grab what we need and I teleport the party out.

Also the protection from evil makes it so it can do natural attacks against us so no it can't eat us.

Morcleon
2013-12-07, 01:12 PM
Remember that it's a dragon. Thus, it has spellcasting and will probably dispel your buffs from range before going in for the kill.

Protection from evil only works against summoned evil creatures. Unless someone summoned this red dragon (in which case you probably have bigger problems than just the dragon), it can still eat you.

Also, energy resistance != DR against energy damage. Resistance to energy is a per round thing, not per attack.

hymer
2013-12-07, 01:13 PM
I'm sorry to be telling you this, but Protection from Evil will do nothing to stop the dragon from using its natural attacks on you (at least this is the case in all the systems I know of, with Protection from Evil as a spell). PfE works against summoned creatures, which I assume the dragon is not.
As for guarding against enegy types, there are feats for dragons to make their breath a different energy type. And dragons are spellcasters - (greater) dispel magic could rather mess up your day.
I'd hesitate with assuming the DM screwed up. He may in fact be setting you up.

Scow2
2013-12-07, 01:52 PM
Remember that it's a dragon. Thus, it has spellcasting and will probably dispel your buffs from range before going in for the kill.

Protection from evil only works against summoned evil creatures. Unless someone summoned this red dragon (in which case you probably have bigger problems than just the dragon), it can still eat you.

Also, energy resistance != DR against energy damage. Resistance to energy is a per round thing, not per attack.
Actually, the Resist Energy spell is explicitly per attack. And I have never seen a DM use Energy Resistance as per round instead of per attack, even if that's what the rules officially say in a section nobody needs to bother reading.

Morcleon
2013-12-07, 02:06 PM
Oh, another thing about having Protection From Energy and Resist Energy on at the same time is that they don't stack. "Note: Protection from energy overlaps (and does not stack with) resist energy. If a character is warded by protection from energy and resist energy, the protection spell absorbs damage until its power is exhausted." This means that you'll absorb 12 damage/CL, then be left with only Resist Energy.


Actually, the Resist Energy spell is explicitly per attack. And I have never seen a DM use Energy Resistance as per round instead of per attack, even if that's what the rules officially say in a section nobody needs to bother reading.

Resist Energy is debatable. It says you gain energy resistance 10, then goes on to give a brief definition. This could be seen as either a mistake due to loss of accuracy, or a revision.

And while most DMs don't, it's still RAW that it's per round. :smalltongue:

Alejandro
2013-12-07, 02:58 PM
Another option not yet brought up: All you really know is you saw its eye, and you know it's evil, and it breathes fire, and might be a red dragon.

None of those things actually means it is a red dragon. Hell, it could be all kinds of evil creatures with lizard like eyes (or under a spell to look that way.) It would be even more hilarious if it, say, had used a potion of fire breathing, and isn't a red dragon at all. Or even a dragon. If I was the GM and you were this cocksure going in, I almost guarantee I would switch things up, just to see how you truly fare thinking on your feet. :)

Doomboy911
2013-12-07, 03:23 PM
Excellent point the dm may have tricked us into thinking it's a dragon but it still stands that it's evil, and it's doing fire damage. I'm not casting protection from dragon I'm casting to protect from what it does.

Slipperychicken
2013-12-07, 04:09 PM
Never brag about how easy the encounter is. Never talk about how powerful your character is. Don't remark that the monsters are chumps and you still have 75 hp left. Especially not while the GM is listening.

That tends to earn you 3 consecutive criticals to the face after a "lucky" dispel knocks out all your buffs and items.

In dnd, humility is strength.

Morcleon
2013-12-07, 04:49 PM
Never brag about how easy the encounter is. Never talk about how powerful your character is. Don't remark that the monsters are chumps and you still have 75 hp left. Especially not while the GM is listening.

That tends to earn you 3 consecutive criticals to the face after a "lucky" dispel knocks out all your buffs and items.

In dnd, humility is strength.

The best GMs shouldn't have to fudge rolls to knock the PCs down a notch or two on the arrogance scale. Proper tactics and intelligent playing is a far more fulfilling way to do that. :smallbiggrin:

Humility isn't strength; knowing your character's limits is strength. :smallwink:

Necroticplague
2013-12-07, 07:40 PM
Once, I was in a Mage group where our main task was hunting Reapers. My character was quietly a Lich, so I had to make plans for when I was found out. Step one was to learn space magic. This made me the dude with the extradimentional space, so by default, that meant I carted around loots. Including any soul stones we found (which, when you go against other reapers, are a bit more common than normal). So gathering the soul stones safely was step one (so if I had to go off the grid, I could avoid having to go after others for a year or so). Step two was to create a method of escape in case things went south. This was accomplished by taking from some of the group's victims, with the ST allowing me to create House (Legion) after taking the real souls of several of them. Having souls on hand witth identities to take, I was ready. Inevitably, one of the lichs we fought as a boss turned out to be the one who initiated the character, who's dying word revealed me. Que applying space magic to accelerate trip in direction of "away".Use one of the (Legion) attainments to take on one of the soulstone souls , with a little bit of Life to take their appearance. The preparation cost a heavy chunk of xp, but i got away relatively unscathed. Instead of retiring the character to re-join the group, I went with more planning. Hunting the targets I knew were next from the shadows before they could, leaving small messages about my wherabouts. They eventually found me at my hideout and confronted me, right in the middle of the biggest graveyard around. Despite what it looked like I was setting them up for, I had only a feeble amount of zombies to try and fight them off. When they tried to shoot me, most the force was drained by an entropic shield. Then, stage3 activated:Faking my own death. A Supress Own Life made them think I was entirely dead, and they left. They tried to use Grim sight to find me out, but my death magic was stronger, and they failed to figure me out. Thus, step 4 was initiated:assassination. Using Legion attaiments, I would get close to the other players in non-combat situations (now that they thought I was dead, and thus not preparing for me), watch where they rested as a member of the crowed, then killed them as they rest. Ask their ghost where the next person could be found/rested. Repeat. Almost worked completely, but apparently they told somebody who was more paranoid, and ambushed me from the Twilight, saving the last two members of the party (save myself).

TuggyNE
2013-12-07, 08:30 PM
Humility isn't strength; knowing your character's limits is strength. :smallwink:

That is exactly what humility is, no more, no less. :smallconfused:

Morcleon
2013-12-07, 09:15 PM
That is exactly what humility is, no more, no less. :smallconfused:

Was talking about how bragging isn't necessarily bad, but even if you brag, you shouldn't actually overextend yourself.

Kane0
2013-12-09, 03:31 AM
But hubris is so delicious!

erikun
2013-12-09, 07:50 AM
Well we have DR 30 for fire and the dragon did about 40 damage with his breath weapon so it won't do that much damage.

Also if the dragon decides to disengage we can push on further down the dungeon, we're after something so the dragon can either stop us along the way while we're buffed or we can grab what we need and I teleport the party out.

Also the protection from evil makes it so it can do natural attacks against us so no it can't eat us.
This sounds like your party is level 11+, which means likely a young adult red dragon. Have fun being peppered with Glitterdust (blinded fighters), Web (immobilized wizards), Sleet Storm blocking vision, invisible ambushes, and fun with Explosive Runes. Seriously, I think you forgot that a dragon is a wizard as well. Take little for granted.

And as others have mentioned, Protection from Evil only gives immunity to direct attacks from summoned creatures.

Necroticplague
2013-12-09, 09:09 AM
This sounds like your party is level 11+, which means likely a young adult red dragon. Have fun being peppered with Glitterdust (blinded fighters), Web (immobilized wizards), Sleet Storm blocking vision, invisible ambushes, and fun with Explosive Runes. Seriously, I think you forgot that a dragon is a wizard as well. Take little for granted.

And as others have mentioned, Protection from Evil only gives immunity to direct attacks from summoned creatures.

Technically, dragons are sorcerers as well, not wizards. Barring cheesy psychotic dragons, of course.

On the original topic, I have another little story. I was playing a dread nekomancer in a dnd 3.5. However, a cheap blank spellbook, cha as a main stat, and bluff as a class skill meant everyone thinking I was a wizard wasn't too hard so eventually, someone stole it to try and cripple me. Cue trying to use a page as a scroll, only to learn too late what had been really written in there in my downtime: ghoul glyphs. Lots of ghoul glyphs.

TheThan
2013-12-09, 02:42 PM
I think Illidanís catchphrase (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gTX2tyZUIw) is relevant to this thread.

Doomboy911
2013-12-15, 02:21 AM
Not digging the lack of faith but I guess it's understandable, I won't admit to being very humble but I know when I'm being cocky. The battle is on Monday, me and the party our teleporting to the nearest town to sell some magical loot we picked up we should at least get 20k each. I'll tell you how the fight went down since I don't like folks doubting me and a good story ought to be told.

In the meantime places your bets, can a level 11 party consisting of a Cleric of Kord, a paladin of Pelor, a half-orc gunslinger, a halfling bard who didn't think to pick up animate rope or dimension door, and potentially a half-elf alchemist take down what will most likely be a CR 15 dragon? Or will we be ash on the floor before I can even say "dear god no"

Scow2
2013-12-15, 12:10 PM
Now THIS is a question for the 3.P boards!
See if you can get a scroll of Shapechange, then shapechange into a Zodar, wish for a scroll of Ice Assassin of an Aleax or three, gate in a few Shadesteel Golems, and

Sith_Happens
2013-12-15, 02:44 PM
nekomancer

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs42/f/2009/140/0/f/Nekomancer_by_StewanMaleno.jpg

Jay R
2013-12-15, 11:40 PM
Or doing Twilight Sparkle proud.

So my buddy has us playing in a game and we have a moment where we see a dragon but just the eye, the paladin lets us know it's evil, than it breathes fire on us which helps me think it's a red dragon. Now we've been given a chance to rest and pick some spells.

The dm has screwed himself, I have three spells which make it so this dragon literally cannot touch us.

In the sheer joy of this moment tell me a story of when you had a chance to prepare for trouble.

My recommendation is to brag about how effective your preparations are after the encounter, not before. Note that Vaarsuvius had spells to negate the dragon's power too. All the dragon has was anti-magic - and she was still a dragon.

Doomboy911
2013-12-16, 12:39 AM
Yes but V wasn't prepped for the dragon he was preparing for anything. I'm preparing for the dragon fight and without my magic I've still got some power attack and other nice tricks. Besides I'm also preparing for someone who's prepared for me. For example if I brag about having a bunch of buffs that I put on the party than the DM knows the best way to hurt us is to use a greater dispel magic to get rid of the buffs on everyone, so ring of counterspell with the greater dispel magic cast into. I always felt the best way to be unbeatable is to think about how someone would defeat you.

Doomboy911
2013-12-19, 01:36 AM
Well we didn't fight a dragon, we had the option but we took a separate path and ran somewhat afoul of some kobolds they took us to see their leader who's so fat he's medium sized. The problem I'm running into now is the dm and I wondering how word of recall works. He's under the impression that I need to be in an area that I want to word of recall to and than once I venture out I can word of recall back to that area. I'm under the impression that designate means I pick an area I want to teleport to and than when I use it I end up there.

In other good news if negotiations go down poorly with this Kobold (the paladin is about bash the Kobold's head in) we may go out of our way and kill the dragon.

Sith_Happens
2013-12-19, 12:29 PM
Well we didn't fight a dragon, we had the option but we took a separate path and ran somewhat afoul of some kobolds they took us to see their leader who's so fat he's medium sized. The problem I'm running into now is the dm and I wondering how word of recall works. He's under the impression that I need to be in an area that I want to word of recall to and than once I venture out I can word of recall back to that area. I'm under the impression that designate means I pick an area I want to teleport to and than when I use it I end up there.

You choose Word of Recall's destination at the time you prepare it. It does not have to be your current location at that moment, but it does have to be someplace "very familiar."

Doomboy911
2013-12-29, 02:44 PM
Well it seems the fight has become even more difficult what I thought would be a CR 14 dragon is apparently going to be a CR 19 dragon. With anti-magic field we have little to no chance of defeating this dragon.

erikun
2013-12-29, 02:55 PM
Well it seems the fight has become even more difficult what I thought would be a CR 14 dragon is apparently going to be a CR 19 dragon. With anti-magic field we have little to no chance of defeating this dragon.
And this is why most of the board didn't think that three spells would cut it against a dragon. :smalltongue:

I hope you prepared both Invisibility and Fly for everyone, if you don't have Teleport/Word of Recall ready. Blindsense is limited to 60' and True Seeing to 120', so you can easily get out of Blindsense range (charge for 120' movement a round) and will hopefully get away before it casts True Seeing to chase you down.

Remember that preparation is more than just defenses; it's being ready for the unexpected!

Doomboy911
2013-12-29, 03:24 PM
Oh well no by the way the dm has ruled word of recall I have to pick a place I'm going to teleport to and the place I teleport to I have to be in when I choose it. We're currently trapped in a mountain which the dm ruled there isn't a way out on the grounds of railroading. The area is also warded with dimensional lock and it's going all across the mountain. Our party lacks a wizard so fly is off and the bard of our group has invisibility but only for himself. Now our plan is to just avoid the dragon if we can, again though since we can't teleport we have to use meld into stone but the dm may very well make us fight the dragon since we avoided a fight with one earlier.

BWR
2013-12-29, 04:48 PM
And this is why most of the board didn't think that three spells would cut it against a dragon. :smalltongue:

I hope you prepared both Invisibility and Fly for everyone, if you don't have Teleport/Word of Recall ready. Blindsense is limited to 60' and True Seeing to 120', so you can easily get out of Blindsense range (charge for 120' movement a round) and will hopefully get away before it casts True Seeing to chase you down.

Remember that preparation is more than just defenses; it's being ready for the unexpected!

More likely it will have See Invisibility, which is limited by your sight range.

Doomboy911
2013-12-29, 05:12 PM
More likely it will have See Invisibility, which is limited by your sight range.

CR 19 dragon will have the works and all the bells and whistles. They're designed to handle a very powerful party, with a musketeer, a bard with bad spells, a cleric designed to buff, and a paladin do not make a powerful party when they're level 11.

Doomboy911
2014-01-01, 03:08 AM
So barring a big debuff called anti magic field I'm relatively prepared defensively. Now for offense I'm feeling good since I've got a ton of buffs to slam the dragon +24 to hit and +16 to damage the beasty with four attacks three at the highest base attack bonus I'm doing kind of well. I decided the best way to handle the fight was keep moving to keep it moving after me. I've got a bullette I can summon in and ride underground but there's one problem, the dm has ruled that I need to have a burrow speed as well or I get knocked off. So that's my last hurdle pick up a burrow speed. Any help guys? I tried searching the handbooks but they don't seem to have anything in the spell department.

Alejandro
2014-01-02, 09:31 AM
That's only if the dragon sits there and lets you hit it. A dragon that old and powerful isn't going to just have a slap fight with you unless it has no choice. It will fly, use its breath weapon and spells, drop things on you, or damage your environment, and only actually get in melee range if it has no other option. At least, that is what a good GM will do.

If for some reason the GM has you encounter the dragon where it has no room to maneuver or fly, then you just have a poor GM that is neglecting the beast's very high INT.

Doomboy911
2014-01-02, 04:24 PM
Well it has room to fly but luckily it's tied down with chains so it can fly just not very far. Apparently the chains are powerful enough to hold it down.

erikun
2014-01-02, 09:12 PM
Maybe, rather than fighting it, you could try negotiating with it?

Depending on what it is and why it's there, I'd think the ground the chains are secured into is probably an easier target than the dragon itself. Plus, a CR 19 ally is nothing to sneeze at.

On the other hand, if it's chained to the ground, why the direct confrontation? You're free to teleport home, prepare properly, and return. For that matter, why fight it directly? I could think of a number of other options, from catapults to simply killing any food sources nearby, that would kill it just as dead.

As for your plan, I have a concern about your defenses. Namely, you likely don't have enough AC to deal with six attacks at +36 to hit and 4d6+10d8+54 damage a round. To say nothing about the +52 grapple check. To say nothing about an immobilized spellcaster most certainly having Dispel Magic and Anti-Magic Field if it has any chance at doing so.

I don't have anything that can give you a burrow speed though, sorry.

Alejandro
2014-01-02, 11:05 PM
I'd be more worried about whoever was able to chain down a huge dragon, frankly.

Doomboy911
2014-01-02, 11:38 PM
I'd be more worried about whoever was able to chain down a huge dragon, frankly.

The story behind it is that a forever ago dwarves had a baby dragon they thought they could control to protect their stuff, yada yada yada they serve the dragon now but it's chained to a couple pillars that the dwarves are trying to bust open.

Killer Angel
2014-01-03, 06:55 AM
A little outdated, but... anecdote time!


Excellent point the dm may have tricked us into thinking it's a dragon but it still stands that it's evil, and it's doing fire damage. I'm not casting protection from dragon I'm casting to protect from what it does.

Once (still with AD&D), the group I was DMing, was hunting a white dragon, so they were heavily protected against cold.
The dragon opened the fight with fireball. :smallwink:

BWR
2014-01-03, 07:20 AM
That's a classic. I'm also fond of the dragon casting a spell so it looks like it's a different color, then make careful use of spells and metamagic/metabreath to make its breath weapon appear to be the correct one. I did that to my players and they were rather upset with me.

Jay R
2014-01-03, 01:05 PM
One of the early modules (G2 Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl) had a particularly simple yet devastating tool. You were attacked by a white dragon. You of course used all your fire-based spells. No problem.

Then the dragon's mate appeared - and you're out of Fireballs.

CombatOwl
2014-01-04, 11:47 AM
Sooo... Dragon attacks you, you cast these spells, it promptly disengages and comes back in twenty minutes. Remember, dragons are geniuses. Unless you can physically trap it (good luck with that) it doesn't have to sit there and let you have your spells.

Eh, dragons lose that fight against folks with teleport. Go raid the dragon's horde with your protections up. It (mistakenly considering itself wise) flies away to outlast your defenses. You shrug and start shoving loot in your bag of holding. Once your timer runs close to your limit, you accept that you've gotten what you can and teleport out. You even got full XP for the encounter, because the monster fled. Even if they put up spells to keep you from teleporting out, you just have to dispel it. You should have several attempts possible.


Also, those spells won't protect you from indirect damage. What if the dragon, say, causes a cave in on your heads? Or floods your tunnel with water? Or burns up all your oxygen?

Just saying--if you're an adventurer of a level to consider going fighting dragons... you really ought to already have a necklace of adaptation. Especially if you're a spellcaster who could have taken craft wondrous item. Falling damage from rocks isn't usually that big of a deal by the rules. Also, AFAIK, D&D has no rules for fires consuming oxygen.


I'd be more worried about whoever was able to chain down a huge dragon, frankly.

I'm sure there's some ridiculous spiked chain build out there that can grapple a huge dragon with a 10ft spiked chain somehow. Apparently that needs to be a class feature for "Dwarven Dragon Wrangler."

Doomboy911
2014-01-04, 06:03 PM
Eh, dragons lose that fight against folks with teleport. Go raid the dragon's horde with your protections up. It (mistakenly considering itself wise) flies away to outlast your defenses. You shrug and start shoving loot in your bag of holding. Once your timer runs close to your limit, you accept that you've gotten what you can and teleport out. You even got full XP for the encounter, because the monster fled. Even if they put up spells to keep you from teleporting out, you just have to dispel it. You should have several attempts possible.



Just saying--if you're an adventurer of a level to consider going fighting dragons... you really ought to already have a necklace of adaptation. Especially if you're a spellcaster who could have taken craft wondrous item. Falling damage from rocks isn't usually that big of a deal by the rules. Also, AFAIK, D&D has no rules for fires consuming oxygen.



I'm sure there's some ridiculous spiked chain build out there that can grapple a huge dragon with a 10ft spiked chain somehow. Apparently that needs to be a class feature for "Dwarven Dragon Wrangler."

Keep in mind we can't teleport nor can we dispel it, mythic levels of dimensional lock which miraculously doesn't prevent planar ally or summon monster. On the typo that it said Spell-like abilities and I presume they mean abilities that produce those spells not spells like the listed spells.

Surprisingly we do not have a jar of air or necklace of adaption, I'd sleep in my handy haversack if I did.

Also the dragon has felt like less of an issue because we're getting another player in our group back. He'd roleplayed himself out of the campaign when his character got a wife and a kid and she threw down the old what's more important adventuring or me. So he's coming back now so we've got a alchemist in our group. Our party honestly wasn't built well, Paladin, Cleric, Bard, Cavalier, and an alchemist. We all do decent damage but we are not a well oiled machine .