PDA

View Full Version : Weapon Properties: Reaping, Greater Reaping (PEACH)



sengmeng
2013-12-07, 01:34 PM
Reaping: Whenever you attack with a Reaping Weapon, keep track of the maximum damage it could deal to the target (so if it also a bane weapon against that target, add an extra 12 to the total, and if the target has damage reduction that the weapon does not overcome, subtract that number from the total). If your target's hitpoint total is lower than your maximum damage, you automatically hit and it is reduced to -10 hitpoints. This means no attack roll is required, but it does use up an attack action. When calculating your maximum damage, do not include extra damage from the Power Attack feat, or energy damage. This counts as dropping a creature for the purposes of the Cleave feat tree.

Strong necromancy and transmutation; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, slay living, keen edge; Price +3 bonus.


Greater Reaping: A weapon with the Greater Reaping ability functions just like a Reaping weapon, except on a critical threat. When you score a critical threat, figure out the maximum damage that could be dealt by a critical hit with this weapon, using the same process as for a Reaping weapon. If it is higher than the target's hitpoint total, they are automatically reduced to -10 hitpoints. If not, roll to confirm the critical and resolve it as normal. On a natural 20, the Greater Reaping weapon can affect creatures normally immune to critical hits, however, if they aren't slain by the reaping effect, do not resolve a normal critical against them.

Strong necromancy and transmutation; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, slay living, keen edge; Price +5 bonus.


So, these two properties were created to be part of a deity's personal weapon, so I'm not against increasing the Greater Reaping ability to +6 or higher if it seems unbalanced.

What do you think? Balanced? Useful? Flavorful? Abusable? Unclear?

Edit: Also, what do you think of making it only applicable to scythes and sickles? Or maybe only to slashing weapons? Are the spells required to craft it reasonable?

Passive Pete
2013-12-07, 01:38 PM
I like the thought and idea. It's pretty neat. It'd just be pretty easy to abuse, especially with anything cleave-related.

sengmeng
2013-12-07, 01:41 PM
Can you specifically describe the abuse you're thinking of? I mean, obviously you can kill every goblin in reach without an attack roll, but that's only a slight step up from what a mid level fighter with a +4 sword could do normally. Are there cleave shenanigans I'm not aware of?

Passive Pete
2013-12-07, 01:43 PM
I guess your right, but not everything is as weak as a goblin. But yeah, I see where you're coming from.

Amnoriath
2013-12-07, 02:03 PM
Reaping: Whenever you attack with a Reaping Weapon, keep track of the maximum damage it could deal to the target (so if it also a bane weapon against that target, add an extra 12 to the total, and if the target has damage reduction that the weapon does not overcome, subtract that number from the total). If your target's hitpoint total is lower than your maximum damage, you automatically hit and it is reduced to -10 hitpoints. This means no attack roll is required, but it does use up an attack action. When calculating your maximum damage, do not include extra damage from the Power Attack feat, or energy damage. This counts as dropping a creature for the purposes of the Cleave feat tree.

Strong necromancy and transmutation; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, slay living, keen edge; Price +3 bonus.


Greater Reaping: A weapon with the Greater Reaping ability functions just like a Reaping weapon, except on a critical threat. When you score a critical threat, figure out the maximum damage that could be dealt by a critical hit with this weapon, using the same process as for a Reaping weapon. If it is higher than the target's hitpoint total, they are automatically reduced to -10 hitpoints. If not, roll to confirm the critical and resolve it as normal. On a natural 20, the Greater Reaping weapon can affect creatures normally immune to critical hits, however, if they aren't slain by the reaping effect, do not resolve a normal critical against them.

Strong necromancy and transmutation; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, slay living, keen edge; Price +5 bonus.


So, these two properties were created to be part of a deity's personal weapon, so I'm not against increasing the Greater Reaping ability to +6 or higher if it seems unbalanced.

What do you think? Balanced? Useful? Flavorful? Abusable? Unclear?

Edit: Also, what do you think of making it only applicable to scythes and sickles? Or maybe only to slashing weapons? Are the spells required to craft it reasonable?

Unfortunately maximum damage can become a rather subjective term. Obviously this is an abuse of the interpretation but it can apply to far more reasonable sources. In the Tome of Battle there is something called the Aura of Chaos stance, this allow any damage dice that rolled the maximum result to be rolled again adding it to the total. Since this reads the maximum result possible with a weapon, however remote the possibility it is infinity. Now, a more tangible example would be to ask what about sneak attack and skirmish? That damage is the same damage as the weapon it just isn't multiplied and contingent(like bane). So, it wouldn't take much for that maximum to be in the 70's if not 100's which is the health of many casters.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ohk178vcqr1o9b7ou69vd1sda7&topic=6844.0

sengmeng
2013-12-07, 02:21 PM
Unfortunately maximum damage can become a rather subjective term. Obviously this is an abuse of the interpretation but it can apply to far more reasonable sources. In the Tome of Battle there is something called the Aura of Chaos stance, this allow any damage dice that rolled the maximum result to be rolled again adding it to the total. Since this reads the maximum result possible with a weapon, however remote the possibility it is infinity. Now, a more tangible example would be to ask what about sneak attack and skirmish? That damage is the same damage as the weapon it just isn't multiplied and contingent(like bane). So, it wouldn't take much for that maximum to be in the 70's if not 100's which is the health of many casters.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ohk178vcqr1o9b7ou69vd1sda7&topic=6844.0

Can you think of wording that would take care of those issues? No "open-ended" damage allowed? Is sneak attack right out? I'm not opposed if it is. What other damage sources should I remove/include? I suppose if it was adjusted to say "maximum base weapon damage + str bonus + enhancement bonus + weapon specialization + bane, anarchic, axiomatic, holy, and/or unholy properties" it would take care of a lot of shenanigans. I don't know Tome of Battle very well. Can you think of a blanket way of removing a lot of potential abuse from that corner? Say, "damage you can deal with a normal melee strike"?

Eurus
2013-12-07, 04:42 PM
Can you think of wording that would take care of those issues? No "open-ended" damage allowed? Is sneak attack right out? I'm not opposed if it is. What other damage sources should I remove/include? I suppose if it was adjusted to say "maximum base weapon damage + str bonus + enhancement bonus + weapon specialization + bane, anarchic, axiomatic, holy, and/or unholy properties" it would take care of a lot of shenanigans. I don't know Tome of Battle very well. Can you think of a blanket way of removing a lot of potential abuse from that corner? Say, "damage you can deal with a normal melee strike"?

You could say that it only maximizes damage that would normally be multiplied on critical hits, but that eliminates the bane/holy/flaming dice. Maybe "damage that would normally be multiplied on critical hits, and damage dice added by weapon enhancement abilities". Say something like "since you do not actually roll, abilities that trigger when you roll maximum damage are not applied".

sengmeng
2013-12-07, 05:03 PM
You could say that it only maximizes damage that would normally be multiplied on critical hits, but that eliminates the bane/holy/flaming dice. Maybe "damage that would normally be multiplied on critical hits, and damage dice added by weapon enhancement abilities". Say something like "since you do not actually roll, abilities that trigger when you roll maximum damage are not applied".

Yes, that does seem to take care of it. The bane and alignment-based properties could be listed as specific exceptions. Or not. I'm not married to their inclusion.

Amnoriath
2013-12-07, 05:40 PM
Can you think of wording that would take care of those issues? No "open-ended" damage allowed? Is sneak attack right out? I'm not opposed if it is. What other damage sources should I remove/include? I suppose if it was adjusted to say "maximum base weapon damage + str bonus + enhancement bonus + weapon specialization + bane, anarchic, axiomatic, holy, and/or unholy properties" it would take care of a lot of shenanigans. I don't know Tome of Battle very well. Can you think of a blanket way of removing a lot of potential abuse from that corner? Say, "damage you can deal with a normal melee strike"?

Say it is only the maximum result of base weapon damage with no damage given at contingent conditions allowed in the equation.

sengmeng
2013-12-07, 07:57 PM
Greater reaping combined with crit fishing shenanigans and a x4 crit multiplier is essentially instant death to everything.

If everything could be killed by a max damage crit, yes. Remember, it doesn't do that damage unless it can kill the opponent. And if everything was vulnerable to crits. It only affects crit-immune creatures on a natural 20, and weapons with a x4 modifier have rubbish threat ranges.

Chronos
2013-12-08, 07:27 AM
Given that these abilities give you guaranteed hits, power attack for full suddenly becomes a lot more appealing. It basically reduces battle to trying to guess the enemy's current HP: If you guess that their HP are in range and go for it, you'll either guess right and insta-kill, or guess wrong and do absolutely nothing. Swingy mechanics like that aren't much fun.

The greater version is also odd: If a non-critical hit will kill them, then having the greater version doesn't add anything over the normal version. So you still have to roll an attack roll, and roll a threat... But that means that all the ability is doing for you is turning a threat into an auto-hit, which it almost certainly was already (in fact, by the rules, it's guaranteed, since a roll too low to actually hit can't be a threat). OK, technically it also maximizes your dice, but by the time you can afford a +6 equivalent weapon, dice are almost irrelevant compared to static bonuses.

Cheesy74
2013-12-13, 12:55 PM
Phrasing it as "instantly reduces them to -10 hit points" also has the unfortunate side effect of making it absolutely impossible to kill anything with feats/class features that put their death threshold at <-10 hp using a Reaping weapon. It could simply be phrased as "instantly slays them. This is not considered a death effect." if that's what you were trying to avoid?