PDA

View Full Version : Working on equalizing base classes, advice appreciated



Galt_Devil
2013-12-11, 12:22 AM
Hi guys, I'm currently working on bringing all tier 4 and lower classes up to be on par with tier 3 classes. I'm trying to avoid de-powering the tier one and two's, as I simply don't allow my players to break my campaigns, mitigating some concerns (infinite wishes, abuse of divination, etc)

Most of my attention right now is on the classes my players are using. Those being, the Warlock, the Fighter, the Monk to a lesser degree, and the Ranger. That said, I have thoughts on paladins.
Classes not listed above that I would like to work on:
Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage.
I have also given minor buffs to sorcerers, simply so they can keep relative pace with the wizard without becoming T1 themselves, as more T1 classes simply would bring more problems.

For reference, this is intended to be used in a homebrew campaign setting where the players have much less access to magical items and cannot purchase any but the most basic (potions, a few low level scrolls, and wands at triple or higher price) and so these class fixes are also intended to compensate for that.

This is what i have currently, and I'd really like opinions.
First, I created a number of new combat styles in addition to the two canonical ones. I've made them five-tiered instead of three, but haven't determined the levels at which they become available yet. More on that later.

First, I'm allowing the Giant's homebrew feats for fighters. Second, I'm allowing all classes access to the weapon focus/specialization tree but making fighter weapon focus/specialization grant them +2 dmg and +1 to hit for each level taken.

I'm also using Pathfinder races with a few minor, unimportant tweaks. Bow users get to add their dexterity to ranged damage, and composite bows add half strength rounded down. This gives archers way more punch at early levels, but looks like it should balance out against strength based characters at later levels (two-handing for strength and a half, power attack, and so on, against the Uzi abilities of well-built archers)
I use the third party feat Improved weapon finesse, allowing characters with weapon finesse to add dexterity to damage as well as to-hit, if they qualify for and take the feat.
Dodge now grants +2 AC vs one target of choice, and a +1 general bonus, the bonuses do not stack.

That said, into the meat and potatoes. What i have of classes thus far:

Fighters choose, at level one, one of three paths which are yet unnamed.
Path 1: Access to favored enemies at ranger levels
Path 2: Free access to weapon OR armor focus trees at their earliest availability, regardless of prereqs
Path 3: Access to combat styles at standard progression.
In addition, they gain +2 BAB at level one instead of +1, and an extra +1 at level five and every five thereafter. (So at level 20, a straight fighter would have +25 BAB)
Fighters gain D12 HD instead of barbarians, as barbarians already gain DR, and fighters are intended to be the most prolific stand-up melee warriors.

Sorcerers: Unlimited cantrips per day, ability to learn spells off of scrolls with a succesful spellcraft check of 15+spell level. Tentative access to Pathfinder bloodlines.

Monks. Full BAB, d10 HD, Gain fighter bonus feats at level 3, 7, and every four thereafter.

Paladins: Paladins no longer cast from wisdom, they now cast from Charisma
Make Smite evil a per encounter ability
Access to "fighter only" feats, but NOT the homebrew fighter Weapon Focus tree.
Intent to allow trading of special mount for other ability trees.
Perhaps allow Healer ACF, of trading both Smite Evil and special mount for access to healing domain spells at bard progression plus healing domain abilities and bonus spells. I'm concerned this may bring them up to tier 2

Rangers: Gain fast movement at level five, as the barbarian ability. Past that, they benefit from the increased weapon styles.

My first ideas for said weapon styles are as follows. The feats/abilities are listed in the order they are obtained, but the levels are not yet mapped out.

Sword and board? Improved shield bash, shield focus, shield specialization, shield deflection, shield charge. In addition, a Sword and Board specialist would gain the magical enhancement of their shield to shield bash damage.

Polearm? Allowed to attack foes within reach with reach weapons as though wielding a quarterstaff, ability to use the cleave ability in straight lines, to limit of range (Incomplete)

Single weapon style: applies to any one or two handed weapon used alone, power attack – weapon focus – weapon spec – greater weapon focus – greater weapon spec. (Debating on whether to have this apply as per the fighter Weapon Focus tree if a ranger takes it)

Fencer style? rapier and dagger) Two weapon defense, two weapon fighting, +1 to AC when wielding dagger and rapier, gain improved critical (rapier), gain improved critical (dagger)

^I'm not as happy with this one, but would like to include it if I can

Mounted Combat: Mounted Combat, Ride by attack, spirited charge, shield mount, mount of choice

Mounted Archery: Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, galloping shot (think ride by attack but with weapons), improved mounted archery(doubles the effect of Mounted Archery), rapid shot and the ability to use it on horseback.


So, tell me your opinions and suggestions, if anything has been too thoroughly powered up, or not powered up enough.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-12-11, 12:32 AM
The Fighter and Ranger aren't really helped that much, although I do like giving the ranger more options for combat style. An easy option for him is to gestalt him with Scout-- you can practically do that anyway via the Swift Hunter feat, but they go together like chocolate and peanut butter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14192508#post14192508).

The sorcerer gets too good if he can learn new spells at will. You're pretty much allowing him to be a wizard with no spellbook and all spells auto-prepared. Baaaad idea. Giving him PF bloodlines should be a nice option, though.

Monks still need less MAD and more mobility. (Using Flurry requires them to stand still and full attack).

Galt_Devil
2013-12-11, 12:43 AM
THanks for the advice--I'm always nervous because of how MUCH help the fighter needs. I was just reading some of your comments in other threads and I'm glad to see you poke your head in. What i'd really like to do for the fighter is add the ability for them to carry on intense periods of time in combat, at their later levels. I'm just not sure how to stat that out. I like the idea of them gaining some fraction of their health back so many times per encounter, at the expense of becoming fatigued after, or somesuch. Opinions on that?
It's also easy enough to make flurry of blows a standard attack action, I should think.
That said, I like the fixed ranger you listed. I'll probably just use that in my games from now on. Any advice on the fighters and monks? And how do you feel about the paladins?

ngilop
2013-12-11, 01:07 AM
letting the sorc learn spells is kinda.. against what the sorcerer is supposed to be about.. inborn magic. that alone to me is a 'don't do that' but Grod brought up a good point about you just now made it the wizard: but better.


giving the sorc the PF bloodlines is a neat idea

For the paladin and ranger id port over the PF versions (expecially the paladin) and giving the paladin a few supernatural abilities ontop of what they got is a good way to go ( liek really why don't ahigh level pladin have a perma holy aura anyways?)

for the monk i never liked the Wisdom instead route i have alwasy favored the Wisdom in addition route.. (like attacks, damage, maybe a save here and there) Also make their abilities scale a bit better to level.. case in point abundant step make it be once per day at 12th an an addtional time every 4th level afterwards (so 2 at 16th and 3 at 20th) those kind of things should fix the Monk to be a capable class

There are a TON of fighter fixes on this site ( i think a new one sprouts up every 10-ish hours honestly) Jiriku (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194834)has one with some good abilities and great customization

to me what teh fighter lacks the most is not combat power, its options other than saying I attack oppoent X /rolld20 the fighter don't really have anything else to do. And the fighter can only taget AC. not any saves or affect anything but HP, its kind of crazy

allowing the fighter to have an attack that say will save or be dazes is pretty good or letting the fighter do an attack and deeal some dexterity damage.. icing!

Eldan
2013-12-11, 04:07 AM
If I can make a suggestion on the fighter? Just give them fast healing. Much easier than other healing mechanics and at higher levels, unlimited HP really isn't that much of a problem.

Zman
2013-12-11, 09:14 AM
IMO the Tier 1 classes need be toned down. Their dominance of the game goes far beyond infinite wishes and the high level abilities to break games and starts as early as Sleep or Color Spray.

Your Sorcerer is now the most powerful class in the game, you've moved him to Teir 1.

Monks need to move and Flurry and still suffers from being MAD.

Cha casting is a must for Paladins, good.

Fighters need options, especially those outside of combat, not more combat power. Mobile attacking is very helpful as well.

You could look at Grod's Class Fixes, he has a list for all of them minor and major.
I also have a list of all of my fixed classes in my Overhaul, though what I am doing may be more than you are after. My goal for the classes and minor magic fix was to bring all classes to Teirs 2-4 while the rest of my modifications are aimed at working on a different "feel" to dnd.

Galt_Devil
2013-12-11, 10:16 AM
I didn't say anything about it, but I get the critiques and won't let the sorcerer learn spells that way. I hope to solve some monk issues by letting them (and fighters) move when full attacking or flurrying. Any opinions on how to make paladin spellcasting, and maybe ranger spellcasting, more worthwhile?

Zman
2013-12-11, 11:13 AM
I didn't say anything about it, but I get the critiques and won't let the sorcerer learn spells that way. I hope to solve some monk issues by letting them (and fighters) move when full attacking or flurrying. Any opinions on how to make paladin spellcasting, and maybe ranger spellcasting, more worthwhile?

I gave them the Battle Blessing or equivalent Feat, I also made them both Spontaneous Casters who know all of their spells.

Let the Monk Flurry as a Standard or a Charge, you can outright let a Fighter get all of his attacks on a Standard or Charge as well, I went the route of letting get one additional at mid level and the ability to turn their iterative attacks into bonuses on their First Attack. At high level I gave them Full Attack as a Standard or Charge.

Also, give your Warlock iterative attacks with Eldritch Blast, it goes a long way.

ngilop
2013-12-11, 01:46 PM
for paladins and rangers id make the caster level be paladin level -3 (that 1/2 paladin level is bull)

I would start them having 1 spell per day not 0 and end up having them cast a couple more spells of 1st and 2nd level per day.. giving them battle blessing for free is a great idea id slap that in around 7th or so.

of course using the pathfinder paladin class abilities as a base would be great.

yes I 100% get behind letting the fighter get a full attack as a standard action, I did it at 7th for my fighter, but when a friend of mine started DMing D&D for the first time I recommended just letting a fighter do it from the get go.