"Because my life sucks"

[BabbageCliolog]

:smallbiggrin: I've been reading Erfworld and been enjoying it but the latest was TOO cliche :smallyuk: : A misfit gamer, fat, with a crappy job, bad social skills, nothing successful going on in his life, taking 5 months to create a game and explaining to his friends why he does stuff because his life sucks and how he's not willing to change ANYTHING to improve his life so he escapes into his head because he can't hack living in the US. Why not make him a cat-piss man, too? :smallmad:

It would be great if: :smallsmile:
a) the protagonist was a successful lawyer, loved by coworkers, with a wife and kids, drives a ferrari, and games with his buddies from the law firm every other friday. He's sucked into this great world and wants to get home to his wife and family and his NORMAL LIFE. :smallwink:

Or

b) Parson gets pulled in and killed immediately because he can't hack Erfworld any more than he can hack Earth, and as a result someone else becomes the greatest warlord. :smallbiggrin:

or

c) the Pizza guy who is wanting to make something of himself by working his way through college shows up at the door and gets PLOT'ed into Erfworld in place of Parson. :smalltongue:

I don't game with the fat misfit gamer. I haven't gamed with the misfit gamer since high school. :smallfurious:

I've spent 5 months working on a game, too. Not to the exclusion of the rest of my life, but because I enjoyed it. :smallsmile:

One of the guy's in my game group DOES drive a ferrari. Two others each have a wife and a kid. Another was in a rock-and-roll band for 10 years and now makes computer games. I'm an engineer that has a masters degree in physics. We all have jobs and lives besides gaming. :smallbiggrin:

I'm just disappointed in the too obvious cliche. I don't know if I'll keep reading it.:smallannoyed:

/BC

[The_Old_Fox]

dude, if this is a cliche than I am not to familiar with the "fat loser goes on wild adventure" genre.

I suppose I should read more.

In my opinion there seems to be many more stories about normal people and extraordinary people put in strange situations than stories about people who don't have it all together beeing thrust into a fantastic situation. I mean, In my experince protagonist usually are "supercool badass" or "avatar of everyman", much more rare in my experince in the loner misfit hero (as opposed to the much more common group of misfits).

Oh well, I suppose if you don't like the protagonist of a story you don't like the protagonist. We have all been there at one time or another. :smallwink:

[MinusInnocence]

I think this is a quaint spin on Joseph Campbell's Monomyth Cycle. The protagonist comes from mysterious origins (outside Erfworld) and is later discovered to have significant powers, a magic artifact or some other neat trick (intimate knowledge of the way Erfworld works). He goes on a quest, meeting a handful of interesting characters who either help or hinder him on the way (I suspect Wanda will fall into the former category and Jillian may be the latter) and eventually inherits the kingdom (that wouldn't be too shabby for a misfit loser). Finally, often due to his own hubris or because of some vile curse, the protagonist suffers a tragic death. I can't speculate on this but I would very much like if a dwagon pooped on him.

Anyway, my point is... so what? People have been telling stories that are basically exactly the same for thousands of years... not because humans aren't creative, we are, it's just that the story is so GOOD. It's worth retelling.

[Erk]

First, we are all gamers here... and thus should know just how true Parson's stereotype is. I can think of half a dozen people just like him out of the circles of people I've gamed with (except probably not as talented of GMs. Most of them are too busy being whiny). Probably more if I put my mind to it even a little. That's not cliche, that's using an archetype we are all very familiar with. Particularly effective since it's something real.

Second, I agree with MinusInnocence a lot. Cliche in and of itself is not a bad thing... like anything else it is a tool that can be used for good or ill. We've got a lot of time left to find out if Erfworld is going to rest too much on cliche, but at this stage it is batting pretty high. Cloth golems... hee hee.

[Maurog]

Does anyone else find it funny that choice a is actually much more cliche than about anything I can think of? "Sliders", anyone?

Choice b is certainly much more cliche breaking, but killing the protagonist too early makes for a very short comic. See reference (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=526#comic).

Choice c just doesn't make any sense. Leading us on with Parson and then introducing some random guy from the real world we don't know anything about and plotting him into Erfworld?

Okay, I admit it, I didn't read the first post. I just looked at the smilies.

[Ashildr_the_Bard]

If you already have a completely successful protagonist, there's no conflict in the story. If Parson was a lawyer with a ferrari, he would make a terrible protagonist for this story. Yes, he would have an adventure and be a great warlord, but we would already expect him to be capable of that. There's no challenge. If he's a washed out Kinkos clerk with a crap life and social problems and still manages to prevail and come to some sort of self-realization in Erfworld, now that's a good story. Everyone likes an underdog.

And anyway, I don't think Parson is too cliche. I know a lot of people like him, but he's far from being the majority of the geek subculture.

[dibujante]

scrubbed
Hey, I summarized it for you. ;)

Has anyone read the Wiz series by Rick Cook? It's got a similar plot twist: a world of magic attempts to summon a powerful wizard from an alternate world to help them battle an Evil Overlord-esque character. However, they summon a wizard from our world: a programming wizard. It's hilarious.

Erfmod: Don't misquote forum posters with intent to antagonize them.

[BabbageCliolog]

Hey, I summarized it for you. ;)

I didn't write that. That's your slant on what I wrote. Sounds like a backhanded insult to me. Mods?

/BC

[Om]

If you already have a completely successful protagonist, there's no conflict in the story. If Parson was a lawyer with a ferrari, he would make a terrible protagonist for this story
But then we'd get the usual "rich overworked guy learns about the true values of life" that Hollywood has fed us son many times already :smallwink:

[Fenix]

I'm an engineer that has a masters degree in physics.

" I have an MBA, you know "
Roy Greenhilt
:smallbiggrin:

[Lucid_Archon]

I'm just disappointed in the too obvious cliche. I don't know if I'll keep reading it.:smallannoyed:

/BC

I think that is a bit of an over reaction. I'm not going to question your reasoning for disliking Parson, because that is your opinion and you have every right to it. But if you turn away from Erfworld because you don't like one character, then you are being foolish. Even if he is the protagonist, he won't occupy 100% of the screen time. Chances are he will often take a back seat to other subplots. You can still enjoy the comic despite the cliched protagonist. For example, I don't like Roy. I don't find him funny, just annoying. But I love OotS, despite his presence. Even when the plot directly revolves around him, I can still laugh at the antics of the characters around him. One character shouldn't be enough to ruin an entire comic for you, more so a comic as good as Erfworld.

[zeratul]

It would be great if: :smallsmile:
a) the protagonist was a successful lawyer, loved by coworkers, with a wife and kids, drives a ferrari, and games with his buddies from the law firm every other friday. He's sucked into this great world and wants to get home to his wife and family and his NORMAL LIFE. :smallwink:

/BC

be realistic. maybe like five people like that are gamers in the US probably less than five. I am not ezagerating. That would be to unrealistic also even if it is cliche it applies to many gamers. That is why many people become gamers. because their life sucks.

[zeratul]

c) the Pizza guy who is wanting to make something of himself by working his way through college shows up at the door and gets PLOT'ed into Erfworld in place of Parson. :smalltongue:

/BC

that would be even more cliche. I dont know how many movies and or comic books have had that. I mean thats the entire premise of Thor!

[Brickwall]

Why? Because it wouldn't make a good story, that's why. Nobody wants to hear about how some successful guy gets plot'd into a game, unless it causes conflict with his normal life, which he actually realizes isn't the dream life he thought he had. Nobody wants to hear about Mr. Pizza Guy unless he eventually finds out that Parson is somehow responsible for this, and he and Parson have to work together to save Erfworld and Pizza Guy's life. Nobody wants to have an apparent main character die off for no good reason, especially when there actually seems to be quite enough reason for him to live on (Wanda summoning him, possibly? could happen). Why do we have cliches? They WORK. You may not like the stereotype, but everything's a stereotype these days. The good plots have been written, and they just get rewritten over and over again, incorporated into other things, with superficially different characters. Originality became a joke before the fall of Rome. You would do well to realize that.

P.S. Larry, God of Chat Smilies, has deemed you a sinner in his sight. Go to internet hell. Do not pass "Go". Do not collect whatever $200 equates to after allthe inflation since the invention of Monopoly.

[BabbageCliolog]

dude, if this is a cliche than I am not to familiar with the "fat loser goes on wild adventure" genre.


Anyway, my point is... so what? People have been telling stories that are basically exactly the same for thousands of years... not because humans aren't creative, we are, it's just that the story is so GOOD. It's worth retelling.


First, we are all gamers here... and thus should know just how true Parson's stereotype is.

I think what bothered me the most was the idea that "gamers are losers who can't handle Real Life (tm)." That's a common stereotype that is repeated over and over again in society, in the media, even (unfortunately) among ourselves. Gamers themselves should be standing up to and saying "We're gamers and we're proud and we are successful people. We have kissed girls, we don't live in our parents' basement, and we have disposable income to buy stuff we want!"

I've known gamers like Parson. But I've also known more gamers like normal average people. The "gamers are losers" meme discounts and insults each and every one of us who actually has a life beyond gaming.

That's what I tried to say at first but didn't do too well. Sorry if I didn't make sense.

/BC

[BabbageCliolog]

P.S. Larry, God of Chat Smilies, has deemed you a sinner in his sight. Go to internet hell. Do not pass "Go". Do not collect whatever $200 equates to after allthe inflation since the invention of Monopoly.

I :smallconfused: reject :smallbiggrin: your :smallredface: false :smallfurious: God :smalleek: and :smallcool: embrace :smallfrown: my :smallsmile: loving :smallbiggrin: Shirley :smallyuk: Kramer, :smallconfused: Patron :smallannoyed: Saint :smallmad: of :smallredface: Empty :smallsmile: Parking :smalltongue: Spaces :smallwink: in :smallfrown: a :smallyuk: Full :smallmad: Parking :smallcool: Lot.

[TinSoldier]

It made sense to me, but I was able to roll with it. From your posts and from my own limited knowledge, I know that gamers like Parson really aren't that commone. Stereotypical, maybe. But common, not necessarily.

I can appreciate him for who he is. Hey, losers need to go on adventures too!

[BabbageCliolog]

be realistic. maybe like five people like that are gamers in the US probably less than five. I am not ezagerating. That would be to unrealistic also even if it is cliche it applies to many gamers. That is why many people become gamers. because their life sucks.


that would be even more cliche. I dont know how many movies and or comic books have had that. I mean thats the entire premise of Thor!


Why? Because it wouldn't make a good story, that's why. Nobody wants to hear about how some successful guy gets plot'd into a game, unless it causes conflict with his normal life, which he actually realizes isn't the dream life he thought he had.

OK, so my examples weren't the best, I can admit that. And at this time I can't come up with a compelling character (what's wrong, :smallfrown: I can make a GURPS character in 15 minutes!).

/BC

[The_Old_Fox]

I think what bothered me the most was the idea that "gamers are losers who can't handle Real Life (tm)." That's a common stereotype that is repeated over and over again in society, in the media, even (unfortunately) among ourselves. Gamers themselves should be standing up to and saying "We're gamers and we're proud and we are successful people. We have kissed girls, we don't live in our parents' basement, and we have disposable income to buy stuff we want!"


Lies!! Lies and Slander!! :smallwink:

No I get what you saying, however I think that the "stereotypical gamer" (as you would put it) overcoming adversity and being a hero (if this is what happens and it very well may not) is more powerful a message and image than atypical successful gamer saves the day. It shows that the stereotype, can overcome what is expected of him. Just my humble opinion.

[swordmaster2000]

No I get what you saying, however I think that the "stereotypical gamer" (as you would put it) overcoming adversity and being a hero (if this is what happens and it very well may not) is more powerful a message and image than atypical successful gamer saves the day. It shows that the stereotype, can overcome what is expected of him. Just my humble opinion.[/quote]

see thats the whole steryotype of it. a person of humble beginings becomes a hero and saves the day. Ever read Eragon- simple young man finds a dragon egg pecomes powerful save the day or The Lord Of The Rings- a simple little hobbit proves even little people can do great things. Frankly It's been done to death.
Not that death is bad! I love cliches pirates with peglegs, Werewolves vs. vamps, dragons who capture princesses (and then eat them before you can save them) all cool! but I think thats what Babbage is getting at with the cliche complaining

sorry for rambling

[The_Old_Fox]

hmmmmm... perhaps

but I think there is a difference between common man and total loser stereotype.

I dunno, perhaps.

[Erk]

I see the point (so far) as being more that the "stereotypical gamer" - and I hate to admit it, but most of my friends who still game fall at least 30% of the way into that archetype (I'm only at 15%:smallwink:) - is not such a weak, useless person to be. Just misplaced, or unsure of his/her place. And that, I think, is really true. That's why a lot of gamers get so lost in escapism... they/we don't have interests and skillsets that really work in the lives they/we lead.

Of course, with most of the people I knew in highschool, they kicked themselves in the butt and worked on finding a niche that was similar but not reliant on escapism, but there are still a lot like Parson who are in their 20's and haven't found the right kick in the pants yet. I would be like Parson now if I hadn't received a science scholarship that required me to go straight into university instead of effin' around doing nothing after highschool. For Parson, it seems like the kick in the pants is particularly... interesting... that's all. PLOT!

For me it boils down to the fact that stereotypes and cliches can be a useful writing tool. By starting with a stock character and building on it, we don't need a lot of introduction time to get to know the protagonist. The interest is not his history, but his future. Now, if Parson remains a useless gamer geek throughout the comic and the jokes from here on all revolve around "ha ha Parson is a dork who never leaves his basement, is overweight, has no motivation beyond escapism, and should never have been chosen as Warlord", then I will feel very let-down and have to agree with you. I don't think that will be the case though.

[Machiara]

a) the protagonist was a successful lawyer, loved by coworkers, with a wife and kids, drives a ferrari, and games with his buddies from the law firm every other friday. He's sucked into this great world and wants to get home to his wife and family and his NORMAL LIFE. :smallwink:


Hey, I'M an appellate lawyer with a wife and kids! Although I drive a Toyota. If I got sucked into Erfworld, I'd be in no hurry to get back; who's to say its not a "Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe" type thing (i.e., you come back at exactly the same time you left no matter how long you spend there)? :D

[InaVegt]

Any stereotype is bound to be incorrect, I myself have never seen the stereotypical dutch person with wooden shoes (never seen anyone wear them), traditional clothing (that's only for the tourists), a couple of tulips in one hand (we produce them because they sell, not because we like them so much) and a joint in the other (contrary to popular belief we aren't all junkies). And I'm sure my view of the average american is bound to be wrong as well.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

I think what bothered me the most was the idea that "gamers are losers who can't handle Real Life (tm)." That's a common stereotype that is repeated over and over again in society, in the media, even (unfortunately) among ourselves. Gamers themselves should be standing up to and saying "We're gamers and we're proud and we are successful people. We have kissed girls, we don't live in our parents' basement, and we have disposable income to buy stuff we want!"

I've known gamers like Parson. But I've also known more gamers like normal average people. The "gamers are losers" meme discounts and insults each and every one of us who actually has a life beyond gaming.

That's what I tried to say at first but didn't do too well. Sorry if I didn't make sense.

/BC

Did you take a look at Parson's gaming group? Parson is the only one of the five who falls into this category. Ashna, a gamer, is even concerned with Parson's escapism.

Oh wait, Ashna's a female gamer, and therefore doesn't exist :smallwink:.

[InaVegt]

Oh wait, Ashna's a female gamer, and therefore doesn't exist :smallwink:.

*looks at gender symbol*

okay

*looks at stacks of D&D/WoD/Exalted/D20 modern rulebooks*

So, you're implying I don't exist, aren't you?

[Nikolai_II]

dude, if this is a cliche than I am not to familiar with the "fat loser goes on wild adventure" genre.

I suppose I should read more.


The Neverending Story (the book, not the movie) is a great "fat looser -> wild adventure" story. Well worth a read :)

[Brickwall]

*looks at gender symbol*

okay

*looks at stacks of D&D/WoD/Exalted/D20 modern rulebooks*

So, you're implying I don't exist, aren't you?

I think he's implying that you're not a female. Just keep in mind that I do not share his viewpoint, I am only a translator.

*flee*

[Alynn]

I think he's implying that you're not a female. Just keep in mind that I do not share his viewpoint, I am only a translator.

*flee*

Also, you are posting on the internet, which as we all know, there are no girls on the internet either so either:

A) You don't exist
B) You are a guy.

So which one is it? :smallbiggrin:

As far as the Stereotype goes, for this it's perfect for a few reasons. One being Lord Stanley's rant of what he wanted in the perfect warlord, and he got what he wished for. Without that there wouldn't be a joke. Another, Stanley wanted someone that wanted to come to Erf (well leave his own world), and if Parson didn't hate his life, why would he want to leave?

Honestly, in some instances stereotypes work. Hell in some forms of entertainment the entire humor of the thing is stereotypical looks and behavior.

Just roll with it, I have a feeling Parson is going to learn that fighting wars isn't as easy as a roll of the dice.

[Karellen]

I think in this case the whole "fat miserable no-life geek" thing should be taken more as brutal honesty rather than as a stereotype. It seems kind of patronizing to me to suggest that the main character should always be presented as a superior specimen of whatever group he represents. If this guy was a bit character in a bad Hollywood movie, I might see the problem, but here he's a main character, and as such has decent room for development.

Fact is, as someone mentioned already, the four other gamers look perfectly normal, so I don't think this can be really taken as an example of looking down on gamers. And hell, we're all gamers, we know what gamers are like, and everybody who'll ever read this comic will too; I don't really see why, this being the case, the main character should project some kind of "successful" image. Isn't this really projecting our insecurities on a fictional character?

[Lysander]

Cliches are relative. Here we have a cliche gamer forced to encounter a real world based on his fantasy game cliches. It's really an examination of cliches and I think it's a pretty interesting concept. I'm excited to see where it goes. And I've said cliches far too many times in this post. Cliche cliche cliche cliche

[sunbeam]

Geez come on.

Assuming it's not some trick kind of thing where you would have to go a fantasy world as a commoner, can you honestly say you'd stay on earth?

If I could go to one as say a sorcerer I'd go in an instant. More dangerous, but face it this world isn't perfectly safe either. What are you going to miss? American Idol? Health care? If you are American and don't have GOOD health insurance you don't get much in the way of that anyway.

Personally I hope the guy kicks all kinds of tail in that world. Odds are you didn't find this site in the first place if you weren't heavily into escapism anyway.

[Jorkens]

I think in this case the whole "fat miserable no-life geek" thing should be taken more as brutal honesty rather than as a stereotype. It seems kind of patronizing to me to suggest that the main character should always be presented as a superior specimen of whatever group he represents. If this guy was a bit character in a bad Hollywood movie, I might see the problem, but here he's a main character, and as such has decent room for development.
I think that's the point, innit. So far we've just seen him as a stereotypical gaming nerd, but as the central character you'd hope that we're going to see him as a reasonably complex and three dimensional character who just happens to appear to be a stereotypical gaming nerd on first inspection.

[Darth Paradox]

Note also, that of the group of five gamers, he's probably the one most dissatisfied with his life, and most desirous of an escape from the real world. His reasons for wanting to escape into the game, and therefore his wish to do so, and therefore his suitability as a target for this spell, are stronger than those of any of the other real-world characters we met.

The story would not, in my opinion, be as strong had the teleported character been socially adept with a good job, a spouse, children, etc... i.e. all the things that would lessen one's desire to escape the real world.

[Radar]

Well... it never is about being highly original or not while choosing personalities of the characters.
1. They were looking for a perfect warlord - someone truly dedicated to war and tactics. Someone, who doesn't have any other interests - Parson meets requierments idealy.
2. The art of building a character is visible rather in small details that give them life. We've seen by now only few strips, so we don't know Parson that good yet to see them.
3. Erfworld is very similar to our war games (all those turns, move points etc.), so it is obvious, that a perfect warlord would be a gamer.

And there are also some details that i really enjoyed: Lord Stanley wanted a guy, "who snacks on gwiffons and eats Marbits for breakfest" and here you go.:smallbiggrin:

Read carefully all the Lords Stanley'a requests - they describe excactly someone like Parson although with a bit twisted meaning (gaming versus real war for example).

[Erk]

Also, one might argue that Parson was in a sense "created" by the spell scanning infinite possible universes and settling on the easiest, most efficient answer to the criteria. Had Wanda been an actually findamancer the spell probably would have settled on a more "successful" warlord, but she is a croakamancer. But that is a bit divergent from this topic.

[GypsyThorn]

I'm actually looking forward to what happens next. To me it sounds like a nice flip-side of the "fish out of water" scenario. In this case, Parson is a fish out of water in his home multiverse, and very much the opposite in the multiverse into which he's being summoned.

[sunbeam]

I haven't really liked this strip too much. I'm interested in it now. It's an idea that's been used several times in fantasy literature, but not with a power gamer as best as I know. And they may actually do something really good with it, I haven't seen it done (modern day human to fantasy world) in a way that totally satisfied me before.

Erfworld may be in for a very nasty shock. God help them.:smalleek:

[Erk]

I'm actually looking forward to what happens next. To me it sounds like a nice flip-side of the "fish out of water" scenario. In this case, Parson is a fish out of water in his home multiverse, and very much the opposite in the multiverse into which he's being summoned.
That is a really good point... I had thought of it but not so directly. Now that you put it succintly it is very clear.

[Radar]

And now it occured to me, that there is one more thing about this situation: "How would you feel, if your dream comes true?" Literally

Parson wanted to find himself in a fantasy world and to be a real warlord, but time will tell if he really will like his situation.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

ok, i haven't read all the topic through, but just read the comic!

read how stanley the plaid describes his warlord and how it simply fits into the cohoerence of the storyline (with a plus of firebaugh not being a findmancer).

and just for kicks, i'm gonna quote the annoying dwarf:

"I want a big guy"
"I want him to be obsessed with war. Somebody who who plans wars and kills his foes for fun"
"I want a guy who snacks on gwiffons and eats Marbits for breakfast"
"He's gotta speak the language. Breath air and things"
"Everything should be familiar and safe to him. No crazy surprises"
"Just make him BIG, okay?"

unlucky wording for the Plaid, and not having the proper 'mancer, but it just fits too much the kind of guy he wants. Just read the quotes twice if it still doesn't click you how everything points out to the kind of person parson is. So, that cliché thing is not used to just shave up the storyline for it being weak, but consistent with the worlds logic. If you wanted a different warlord, you'd need to have a different Overlord -> different story -> different webcomic.

So, IMO, your disgust in the "stereotype" is your own lack of being able to see the story as a whole.

Guess this has already been discussed earlier, but oh wel... there it goes

[Madalin]

I'm a fat miserable no-life geek.

Well, not really fat. It's just that most of my weight seems concentrated in certain places in the form of "fat". I'm not actually overweight.

But anyways, I -like- it this way. Having friends, socializing, having a normal life, bah, too much work for too little reward, for me.

[TimeWizard]

Most of us can relate to Parson, on some level or another. Thats what a good protagonist usually is, someone you can relate to. Haven't we all, no matter who, wished to be someone else at somepoint in their life? or to lead a different life? If anyone can answer no to that statement then you are truely a unique individual.

[BabbageCliolog]

Ok, so I've re-read the strips and while I don't like the background of Parson, I'm getting used to the strip and enjoying it more than not.

Yes, sometimes things can grow on you.

/BC

[Zeku]

Why is everyone taking the OP so seriously?

It's very typical of the 'haves' to attribute the shortcomings of the 'have-nots' to the 'have-nots' own personal flaws or poor decisions. That absolves the 'haves' from any personal responsibility for the welfare of others.

Furthermore, any post that ends with a positive description of oneself cannot be interpreted in any fashion except boasting, and at worst, insecurity.

We aren't the judge of the OP, but neither is he the judge of others. In other words, this is trolling, probably unintentional. It should be ignored.

[Maurog]

What do you mean why? Look at his post, there are smilies everywhere! It has smilies, therefore it must be taken seriously!

[BabbageCliolog]

I'm the original poster.


It's very typical of the 'haves' to attribute the shortcomings of the 'have-nots' to the 'have-nots' own personal flaws or poor decisions. That absolves the 'haves' from any personal responsibility for the welfare of others.

Parson himself admits on Page 16 "Because my life sucks. My car is a rolling bomb. My job feels like an endless training film. Nobody reads my webcomic. This place is a hole. A condemned hole. For squatter hobbits. And to be honest, I don't actually find any of that stuff interesting enough to change."

That spells out to me his shortcomings are due to his own personal flaws and poor decisions. At what point does he take personal responsibility for himself? Shouldn't he take responsibility for himself first? Should anyone be responsible for someone who isn't interested in changing his life? Should I care about someone who doesn't care about their own life?


Furthermore, any post that ends with a positive description of oneself cannot be interpreted in any fashion except boasting, and at worst, insecurity.

So, *anyone* who says *anything* good or positive about himself is boasting or insecure? No other options are available, like pride in accomplishments, facts about their lives, or any other possibility? Try looking up the logical fallacy of Bifurcation (It's also known as the "black and white" fallacy or "false dichotomy", bifurcation occurs if a situation is presented as having only two alternatives, when in fact other alternatives can exist).


We aren't the judge of the OP, but neither is he the judge of others. In other words, this is trolling, probably unintentional. It should be ignored.

I thought "we aren't the judge" of others? Yet you then make a judgement of "this is probably trolling." I'm not trolling. I have issues with the Parson character. I may have not expressed myself the best, but I see no reason to ignore my post because you think it's a troll.

/BC

[pclips]

I'd just like to interject that the original poster is very much welcome and encouraged to express his opinions about the comic.

Parson is, and is meant to be, a flawed character. There's a reason we listed weaknesses as well as strengths in the bio section. It's perfectly legitimate to despise some of them for their weaknesses, and love others for their strengths. And perhaps you'll do both with some characters.

Our job as storytellers is to present you with characters who are worthy of discussion and debate. We like the arguments, as long as they're healthy and civil. :smallsmile:

[Silverlocke980]

I'd just like to interject that the original poster is very much welcome and encouraged to express his opinions about the comic.

Parson is, and is meant to be, a flawed character. There's a reason we listed weaknesses as well as strengths in the bio section. It's perfectly legitimate to despise some of them for their weaknesses, and love others for their strengths. And perhaps you'll do both with some characters.

Our job as storytellers is to present you with characters who are worthy of discussion and debate. We like the arguments, as long as they're healthy and civil. :smallsmile:

Good sir who forges Erfworld on a weekly basis:

Healthy and civli debates are not a part of internet culture...

But we'll try to keep 'em that way. :smallsmile:

[BabbageCliolog]

I'd just like to interject that the original poster is very much welcome and encouraged to express his opinions about the comic.

Thanks! You are a class act!


Parson is, and is meant to be, a flawed character. There's a reason we listed weaknesses as well as strengths in the bio section. It's perfectly legitimate to despise some of them for their weaknesses, and love others for their strengths. And perhaps you'll do both with some characters.

Yes, Parson is a flawed character that I have a problem with. I like the rest of the comic so far and look forward to seeing how it turns out.


Our job as storytellers is to present you with characters who are worthy of discussion and debate. We like the arguments, as long as they're healthy and civil. :smallsmile:

Hey, I like healthy and civil, too, and try to be that, so, again, thanks for the welcome and encouragement.

/BC

[BabbageCliolog]

Healthy and civil debates are not a part of internet culture...

But we'll try to keep 'em that way. :smallsmile:

True, that. But we can change the culture, too, so here's to healthy and civil debate! Three cheers! :)

/BC

[Brianish]

Goin out on a limb here and guessing that you're pissed about the cliche because it's a cliche about your social group.

I've met a lot of gamers. Cliche or not, it's often accurate.

This is what the story's about. It would not be the same story with another main character. If you think it would be as good with a lawyer or something, go tell that story and prove it.

[BabbageCliolog]

Goin out on a limb here and guessing that you're pissed about the cliche because it's a cliche about your social group.

Your branch broke. 1) I'm not pissed, I just dislike the character of Parson.:smallbiggrin: 2) It's not even close wrt my social group.:smallsmile:


I've met a lot of gamers. Cliche or not, it's often accurate.

I've met a lot of gamers as well. The cat-piss man is the exception, not the rule. And most people remember the exceptions, rather than the majority. Most gamers I've met can hold a good job and have a life beyond gaming. YMMV, but my "experience sample" is not invalidated by your "experience sample," either. :smallsigh:


This is what the story's about. It would not be the same story with another main character. If you think it would be as good with a lawyer or something, go tell that story and prove it.

Sure, I'll go do that and let you know. :smalltongue:

/BC

[Harr]

You know, at first I agreed with this post. Parson's character is indeed a cliche, and an annoying cliche at that. Yet, a few posts later I read about how this type of cliche has actually not been done in this type of story yet. That got me thinking.

Have I seen "Stranger in a Strange World" done with a Gamer-Geek character before? Hmm. I've seen it done with a literature student. I've seen it done with a janitor. I've seen it done with a clueless child, I've seen it done with a genius scientist, I've seen it done with a computer programmer, I've seen it done with a psychotic schitzophrenic, I've seen it done with a pot smoker, I've seen it done with an astronaut, and with a musician, and with an engineer, and with a suicidally-depressed teen girl.

But... I have not seen it done with a Gamer-Geek. And you know what... that actually makes it interesting.

Cliches are not about whether you're using them or not. It's very easy for rookie literature-buffs to get hung up on "oh you used a cliche, cliches are bad" platitudes, but they miss the point of the concept entirely.

Cliches are about whether or not you use them in original ways. About whether you can take a tried, true, tired concept and breather even more life into it with a new twist. Gamer-geeks are a cliche. "Stranger in a Strange World" is a huge cliche, and also one of the Seven Stereotypical Stories along with "Reluctant Hero", "Rags to Riches", "Guy Loses Girl", and some others.

And yet, a Gamer-Geek inside of "Stranger in a Strange World"... well, maybe it has been done before (and if it has, I'd like to hear an example), but to me, it's original. And that makes it cool by my book.

[BabbageCliolog]

But... I have not seen it done with a Gamer-Geek. And you know what... that actually makes it interesting.

...

And yet, a Gamer-Geek inside of "Stranger in a Strange World"... well, maybe it has been done before (and if it has, I'd like to hear an example), but to me, it's original. And that makes it cool by my book.

It's been done before. :smalltongue: I'll give you two examples:

:smallsigh: Quag Keep by Andre Norton (1978) and Return to Quag Keep by Andre Norton and Jean Rabe (2005): D&D players sucked into Greyhawk as their characters.

:smallamused: The Sleeping Dragon (Book 1 of the Guardians of the Flame) by Joel Rosenberg (1983) plus 9 follow on books in the series: D&D players sucked into "fantasy world" as their characters.

/BC

[Need_A_Life]

Sad thing is that I do know a gamer like Parson... I don't speak to him much.

Erfworld is funny because it caters to my expectations, I have yet to see any plot development that wasn't 100% expected, the only unexpected things were jokes (like "PLOT!", "boob" and "Tool").

The reason Erfworld works is because, despite a much more refied type of art than Order of the Stick, the basic premise is the same. There is a simple part and an advanced part; with Order of the Stick, the art was simplified to let people focus on dialogue (and eventually, the plotline), Erfworld has fairly sophisticated art (compared to most online comics), but the plot and characters aren't exactly deep, but rather classical stereotypes.

Yes, it's stereotypical and cliché, but most anything is these days.

[Ilgivan]

If this turns out to be "just" another Guardians of the Flame, I for one won't object too much.

[Logos7]

Hate to tell people,

if all you had to do to change your lot in life was work hard and think positive we would be a nation ( or NOrth Amercias because im from canada) of successful rich people.

Vast Majority of People born in a Socioeconomic Bracket Die in that Bracket, no amount of counter examples will cut it until we reach the point where the counterexamples become significant to a scale of 100's of Millions.

Why work really hard to vaguely improve your lot in life when you can just hack it at the level your at. Unless the conditions are intolerable you wont, what is untolerable changes for indivudal but life is like this and has been for a couple thousand years.

Logos

[Erk]

Logos: the vast majority of people who live by that philosophy die by it. I was born to a lifestyle barely above abject poverty, at times with an annual income lower than the income of welfare recipients, maintained only because my parents don't believe in the welfare system and refused to use it. Since I have managed to become a successful degree holder, am making more money than I have ever seen before in my life doing a really fun job overseas, and am going for a medical doctorate when I get home - all based only on my own hard work - I have troubles sympathising with that argument. I am a statistical anomaly, but since I can clearly identify the source of my success (optimism and a willingness to apply myself to overcome the situation I was born into), I would say that the reason I am a statistical anomaly is that, statistically, not many people put much effort into their lives. They are content with the status quo because the can survive in it, as you said, so there is no motivation to sacrifice all the energy it takes to pursue something better.

Good thing they don't, because there would be a lot more competition for blokes like me then. But the issue isn't that it takes sheer luck to succeed, the issue is that at heart, most people don't really try to succeed. Only a few actually cannot do it.

But what a digression... this has little to do with Parson. I think we will find as the story progresses that Parson is a much more deep character than we give him credit for. I mean, come on! By strip 24, had the OOTS characters advanced beyond basic stereotypes? Hell, one could argue even now that most of them haven't. Give Erfworld its time to shine :) if you must, feel free to dislike Parson until given reason not to... I was a lot less fond of him before the Tool remark.

[BabbageCliolog]

Hate to tell people,

if all you had to do to change your lot in life was work hard and think positive we would be a nation ( or NOrth Amercias because im from canada) of successful rich people.

So, not working hard and not thinking positive is the way to go? :smallfrown: Doesn't make sense to me. YMMV.

But I don't think that's the only things you have to do. You also have to learn. Educating yourself, working hard and thinking positive can change your life. It may not, but it *can.* That possibility is enough for me to do it.


Vast Majority of People born in a Socioeconomic Bracket Die in that Bracket, no amount of counter examples will cut it until we reach the point where the counterexamples become significant to a scale of 100's of Millions.

True, that, but does not mean you can't/shouldn't try to improve yourself or change your SEB.


Why work really hard to vaguely improve your lot in life when you can just hack it at the level your at. Unless the conditions are intolerable you wont, what is untolerable changes for indivudal but life is like this and has been for a couple thousand years.

So your point is why try to do something that improves your life? :smallconfused: Why not? Even a "vague" improvement would still be an improvement.

Have you heard of the Bard Clemente Course (http://clemente.bard.edu/about/)? It's an effort to improve education for the poor, to introduce them to the great minds of our history and culture. Most participants agree that this knowledge improves their lives.

From the website: "The Bard College Clemente Course in the Humanities grew out of the disturbing fact that in our society many low-income residents have limited access to college education and no opportunity to study the humanities. The Clemente Course provides college level instruction in the humanities, with the award of college credits, to economically and educationally disadvantaged individuals at no cost and in an accessible and welcoming community setting. Participants study four disciplines: literature, art history, moral philosophy, and American history. Like their more affluent contemporaries, students explore great works of fiction, poetry, drama, painting, sculpture, architecture, and philosophy, while learning also about the events and ideals that define America as a nation. The course also offers instruction in writing and critical thinking, while the seminar style of the classes and dialectical investigation encourage an appreciation for reasoned dialogue."

and

"In evaluation of the program, participants report that their encounter with the humanities was intellectually and personally rewarding. Graduates indicate that the course has increased their self-esteem, level of aspiration, and confidence in ability to succeed at college work. Some students say that the course has helped them advance at work, while others explain that by opening new vistas the course has made them better parents with more to offer their children. Students who in the past have felt marginalized socially, politically, and educationally appreciate that they have acquired knowledge that enables interactions across class, racial, and generational lines; they feel included and privileged. Further, almost all graduates state that the course has increased their desire for further education."

/BC

[Aquillion]

Parson himself admits on Page 16 "Because my life sucks. My car is a rolling bomb. My job feels like an endless training film. Nobody reads my webcomic. This place is a hole. A condemned hole. For squatter hobbits. And to be honest, I don't actually find any of that stuff interesting enough to change."

That spells out to me his shortcomings are due to his own personal flaws and poor decisions. At what point does he take personal responsibility for himself? Shouldn't he take responsibility for himself first? Should anyone be responsible for someone who isn't interested in changing his life? Should I care about someone who doesn't care about their own life?What are you talking about? He does take responsibility for himself. You just quoted him taking complete responsibility for how his life is going. I think, in fact, that that's one of his redeeming features: His life is messed up, yes, but he doesn't blame anyone else for it. He's brutally honest, both with himself and others--we've seen that same thing in his way of talking with Stanley and Wanda. He's intelligent and, when he talks to people, actually a decent conversationalist. In other words, he has good attributes that weren't necessarily obvious at first glance.

I think, also, that having a protagonist who hated his own life in this world will be necessary for the sort of story that the authors are telling. Someone who liked their life on earth and wanted to get back to it would be a completely different story, basically, from someone who embraces their new role and likes it there.

[BabbageCliolog]

What are you talking about? He does take responsibility for himself. You just quoted him taking complete responsibility for how his life is going.

He's not taking responsibility for himself. He's whining. "My life sucks." That's a whine. He then lists all the things that suck in his life and then can't be bothered to change them. That's not responsibility, that's whining.

He's not willing to step up and change his life, even for a "vague" improvement. No, he can't be bothered. Responsiblity involves recognizing and acting, IMNSHO. Sure, he may have recognized that his life sucks, but has he acted? If I get into a car accident, I can recognize that I struck another car, but if I flee the scene, am I being responsible? NOOOOO. A responsible person acts - they stay and talk to the police.

If he didn't care about those things (car, job, home), he wouldn't be whining "my life sucks." He wouldn't have started the monologue with "my life sucks."

Plus he's bored. He can't be bothered to change. Responsibility requires that you do even those things you think are boring. I pay my bills (the responsible thing to do) even though I would rather not be bothered. Do I still do it? Yes.

That's what I read by that statement, not responsibility, but whining. You can't have responsibility without some sort of action. YMMV.

/BC

[Aliquid]

If he didn't care about those things (car, job, home), he wouldn't be whining "my life sucks." He wouldn't have started the monologue with "my life sucks." I disagree.

If someone asked me "why aren't you out playing sports?" I would respond "because I suck at sports". That wouldn't be a whine, it would be a simple statement of fact. Furthermore, I don't care. I have no desire to be better in sports because they are not important to me.

Parson saying "my life sucks" is a fact, and observation, a piece of information which is needed to properly explain why he spends so much time on his games.

[triffid]

Are you trying to say that because Parson is not a motivated, financially successful go-getter, he does not deserve to be a protagonist? It seems like that, and not anything to do with cliches, is what's churned up this Righteous Indignation.

[zeratul]

Lies!! Lies and Slander!! :smallwink:

No I get what you saying, however I think that the "stereotypical gamer" (as you would put it) overcoming adversity and being a hero (if this is what happens and it very well may not) is more powerful a message and image than atypical successful gamer saves the day. It shows that the stereotype, can overcome what is expected of him. Just my humble opinion.

Quoted for the Truth that would be a way better image.

[zeratul]

If I got sucked into Erfworld, I'd be in no hurry to get back; who's to say its not a "Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe" type thing (i.e., you come back at exactly the same time you left no matter how long you spend there)? :D
Thatd be Damn cool. Sept id force them all to sop using thos lisp things.

[BabbageCliolog]

Are you trying to say that because Parson is not a motivated, financially successful go-getter, he does not deserve to be a protagonist? It seems like that, and not anything to do with cliches, is what's churned up this Righteous Indignation.

Not in the least. I don't like the character as presented. The comic is growing on me, however, so I am enjoying it. And it's not Righteous Indignation (TM), its personal preference.

/BC

[BabbageCliolog]

I disagree.

If someone asked me "why aren't you out playing sports?" I would respond "because I suck at sports". That wouldn't be a whine, it would be a simple statement of fact. Furthermore, I don't care. I have no desire to be better in sports because they are not important to me.

Parson saying "my life sucks" is a fact, and observation, a piece of information which is needed to properly explain why he spends so much time on his games.

Ah, but "I suck at sports" only defines one aspect of your life. If you said "my life sucks" that would be a whine, IMNSHO. I, too, suck at sports, but I'm good at other things.

He's whining, IMNSHO.

/BC

[pclips]

Not in the least. I don't like the character as presented. The comic is growing on me, however, so I am enjoying it. And it's not Righteous Indignation (TM), its personal preference.

/BC

Oh, to be able to discuss my own comic as a fan. You might be surprised at what I'd say. :smallwink:

[ElfLad]

Oh, to be able to discuss my own comic as a fan. You might be surprised at what I'd say. :smallwink:
You'd pan it, wouldn't you? Every webcomic person I know of either sees their flaws more clearly than their readers, or doesn't see any of their flaws.

Judging by your Partially Clips commentary, you fall heavily into the former category.

[Indon]

Ah, but "I suck at sports" only defines one aspect of your life. If you said "my life sucks" that would be a whine, IMNSHO. I, too, suck at sports, but I'm good at other things.

He's whining, IMNSHO.

/BC

He's good at other things, too, and he's interested in those things.

They just don't have anything to do with his real life, which he's not really interested in.

[BabbageCliolog]

He's good at other things, too, and he's interested in those things.

They just don't have anything to do with his real life, which he's not really interested in.

But he says "my LIFE sucks." (my emphasis). Life = his total existance, car, job, social prospects, home, sex life, & etc ad nauseum.

So he's whining, IMNSHO. :smallyuk:

He's a whiner-49er, and his darling Clementine!

/BC

[Aliquid]

But he says "my LIFE sucks." (my emphasis). Life = his total existance, car, job, social prospects, home, sex life, & etc ad nauseum.It doesn't have to.

That's your definition of the term, but that doesn't mean it is his definition.

[TinSoldier]

Yeah, I still don't see it as whining. I've got kids. I know what whining is.

[Pyrian]

Right now, I'd categorize BabbageCliolog as whining. Parson? He was asked a question, and he answered it and moved on to his own priorities.

[BabbageCliolog]

It doesn't have to.

That's your definition of the term, but that doesn't mean it is his definition.

Those are the terms he used: work, car, job, life.

To me, that's his definition of the term.:smallbiggrin:

/BC

[BabbageCliolog]

Right now, I'd categorize BabbageCliolog as whining. Parson? He was asked a question, and he answered it and moved on to his own priorities.

No, Parson waxed eloquent about how his life sucks. He did a soliloquy. :smallsmile:

And how, exactly, am I whining? Which of the following? :smallamused:

whin·ing, noun
–verb (used without object)
1. to utter a low, usually nasal, complaining cry or sound, as from uneasiness, discontent, peevishness, etc.: The puppies were whining from hunger.
2. to snivel or complain in a peevish, self-pitying way: He is always whining about his problems.
–verb (used with object)
3. to utter with or as if with a whine: I whined my litany of complaints.
–noun
4. a whining utterance, sound, or tone.
5. a feeble, peevish complaint.

I'm not No. 1 :smallsmile:, 2 :smallamused:, 3 :smallconfused:, 4 :smallwink: or 5 :smallcool:. I have demonstrated neither peevishness (annoyance, irritation, bad mood, perverse or obstinate) nor self-pity.

Parson was at the very least No. 1 (discontent), 2 (complaint in a peevish, self-pitying way), and 3 (litany of complaints), by all definitions of the word Whine.

/BC

[Tokiko Mima]

:smallbiggrin: I've been reading Erfworld and been enjoying it but the latest was TOO cliche :smallyuk: : A misfit gamer, fat, with a crappy job, bad social skills, nothing successful going on in his life, taking 5 months to create a game and explaining to his friends why he does stuff because his life sucks and how he's not willing to change ANYTHING to improve his life so he escapes into his head because he can't hack living in the US. Why not make him a cat-piss man, too? :smallmad:

It would be great if: :smallsmile:
a) the protagonist was a successful lawyer, loved by coworkers, with a wife and kids, drives a ferrari, and games with his buddies from the law firm every other friday. He's sucked into this great world and wants to get home to his wife and family and his NORMAL LIFE. :smallwink:

Or

b) Parson gets pulled in and killed immediately because he can't hack Erfworld any more than he can hack Earth, and as a result someone else becomes the greatest warlord. :smallbiggrin:

or

c) the Pizza guy who is wanting to make something of himself by working his way through college shows up at the door and gets PLOT'ed into Erfworld in place of Parson. :smalltongue:

I don't game with the fat misfit gamer. I haven't gamed with the misfit gamer since high school. :smallfurious:

I've spent 5 months working on a game, too. Not to the exclusion of the rest of my life, but because I enjoyed it. :smallsmile:

One of the guy's in my game group DOES drive a ferrari. Two others each have a wife and a kid. Another was in a rock-and-roll band for 10 years and now makes computer games. I'm an engineer that has a masters degree in physics. We all have jobs and lives besides gaming. :smallbiggrin:

I'm just disappointed in the too obvious cliche. I don't know if I'll keep reading it.:smallannoyed:

/BC

So, Parson is lazy, self absorbed, rude, and obsessed with fruitless activities like webcomics and strategy games. That makes him an interesting character to me, because he has a lot of room to grow.

If I follow your suggestions, you seem to imply that the story would be better if a motivated, social, outgoing individual who gamed frequently was the lead. Just my opinion, but I think stories about people who are 'perfect' like that usually turn out rather flat. There's no room for character development if the character is fully developed.

I can understand you're upset by the stereotypical treatment of Parson Gotti, but I suspect that's going to be key to the story. Pason Gotti has to be the kind of person who would create a webcomic like Hamstard.com (http://www.hamstard.com) and I don't think a well balanced person would want to create something like that. (No offense to AZM and PClips! :smalltongue: )