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TimeWizard
2007-01-18, 12:29 AM
What class or combination of classes work best if I wanted to make a gunner? Are their any special gunshooting feats? and is this a viable (level 1-20, or 1-10 at least) character option?

TheOOB
2007-01-18, 12:32 AM
Guns really arn't a part of D&D, there are varient rules allowing for guns in the DMG, but no feats or PrCs supporting them, especially if your using old flint-lock weapons which take forever to reload.

Perhaps you can elaborate as to how guns work in your campaign, and any specific goals you have in mind for your character.

FdL
2007-01-18, 12:49 AM
My opinion on guns in D&D is "no".

Then again, you could take a look at that steampunkish setting which was called...hmmm. Something with "Iron". Sorry.

TimeWizard
2007-01-18, 12:51 AM
To be fair, guns weren't a part of DnD, but along with the flying airship I beleive comes a noticable suspension of disbelief, besides, they have in game rules in the DMG i think. Thats half my problem, i know they exist but i don't know where, and to what extent their usefulness is. But if i recall correctly, rifle's and pistol's exist and supposedly deal good damage.

TheOOB
2007-01-18, 12:55 AM
Even in a modern D&D setting (like d20 modern), guns don't really work like guns. The hp system works well with swords and bows where battles are supposed to be long and epic, with the hero getting cut dozens of times and have arrows sticking out every which way yet still be fighting.

Guns on the other hand only really work if they are lethal. Givin in even the most player hating system in the word a single handgun bullet has little chance of killing a player alone, but a bullet even from a weak gun needs to be powerful enough to cause significant injury in order for guns to work right.

If you really like guns, try shadowrun, guns are a major element in combat plus the system still has stuff like magic and swords and stuff. Plus cyberpunk is awesome.

paigeoliver
2007-01-18, 01:16 AM
Some of my campaign settings over the years have featured pistols, muskets and cannons. I have always set them up so that they could not be effectively reloaded in combat (single shot weapons that took a long time to reload), so characters who did use them usually fired one shot before dropping them and wading into melee. The (rare) pistol based character would usually carry about six of the suckers and would usually run out of them by the end of the second or third round.

My 3.5 pistols worked like this.

-----------------------

Pistol - Cost: 500 GP Damage 2d4. Crit range X4 weight 2 lbs. Range increment 20 feet. Piercing damage. Simple weapon. A pistol takes 3 full round actions to reload. An attack with a pistol ignores the first 3 points of armor or natural armor. All pistols are masterwork, the 500 GP includes the masterwork cost.

Yes, I know that isn't a LEGAL weapon by the 3.5 rules, since simple weapons shouldn't have a X4 crit range.

-------------------------

There was one feat related to them.

-------------------------------------

Hipshooting. - Prerequisite. Quick draw and Improved Initiative.

Hipshooting is the act of pulling a ranged weapon and firing as quickly as possible, but with poor aim. You can use Hipshooting with pistols, loaded crossbows, wands that require attack rolls, and thrown weapons. You cannot use Hipshooting with bows, slings, or melee attacks.

Before rolling iniative the character declares he is using Hipshooting. He may then gain a bonus to iniative as high as his base attack bonus. That same number is applied as a penalty to all his hit rolls for the first combat round. A declaration of Hipshooting must be followed by a ranged attack with an applicable weapon. If a character declares Hipshooting and then is unable to make a legal attack when their turn comes up then their standard action is lost and they are left with a move action only.

-----------------------------

The pistols did not overwhelm the campaign at all. Characters rarely used them, they would mostly carry them for show.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-01-18, 01:18 AM
Really, I'd just do it like WoW does it... guns are just another ranged weapon, with equal average damage compared to the rest of the ranged weapons

For example:

Pistol:

Damage: 1d4, Crit 18-20, X2

Loading a Pistol is a move action which provokes an Attack of Opportunity

You can shoot, but not load, a Pistol with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a Pistol with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons.

Smoothbore:

Damage: 1d6, Crit 18-20/X2

You need at least two hands to operate a Smoothbore, reguardless of size. Reloading a Smoothbore is a move action which provokes an Attack of Opportunity. A Smoothbore is too unwieldy to use while mounted.

Rifle

Damage: 1d8, Crit 18/20/X2

Loading a Rifle is a full round action which provokes an attack of opportunity

You need at least two hands to operate a Rifle, reguardless of size. You can use a Rifle while mounted.

Semi-Auto

This can be applied to any of the three guns. In effect, it has a five round chamber. As long as there are bullets in the chamber, you may shoot by simply pulling back the hammer (free action). Loading a chamber is a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity and requires at least two hands to perform.

The Rapid Reload feat may be applied to all forms of guns presented here, although it cannot be used to reload a chamber quickly.

Consider all forms of firearms to be exotic weapons unless from a society which has sufficent technology to produce firearms and ammunition.

Bobbis
2007-01-18, 02:07 AM
I took it off of Final Fantasy Tactics; guns were wonderous items that fire magic bullets (a wonderous item in their own right). The user makes a touch attack using his ranged attack bonus. As a full round action they may fire as many times as their Base Attack Bonus allows, the guns have various range increments, the highest being 150 feet, guns can crit for x2. The AoE effects have a reflex save that equals the attack roll.

Six round chamber, full round action to reload:
Basic elemental bullets, Fire/Cold/Electricity/Acid/Nonelemental
Xd6 elemental damage, cost is (X^2)*10

Sonic Bullets
Xd6 damage, cost is (X^2)*15

Force Bullets
Xd6 damage, cost is (X^2)*20

In order for the bullets to have an AoE, the damage is radius times price, to a max of 50.

I'm not sure how balanced it is, but as a rare item, it works fairly well.

Of course, my game is also a high magic world; employees of the wizard college carry around wonderous items that highly resemble cell phones made with the message spell.

After all, my theory is "Suitably Advanced Magic is Indistinguishable from Technology."

Thomas
2007-01-18, 04:50 AM
Guns have been part of my (A)D&D since they updated the Forgotten Realms for 2nd edition AD&D. And those were just the earliest rules for firearms (and cannons) I read in the game.

Anyway, as is, they suck. Don't use them. You'll suck. Use a composite longbow. If you have to, get some third-party books (Masque of Red Death has feats for firearms, I think, but it's probably not the best source).


Even in a modern D&D setting (like d20 modern), guns don't really work like guns. The hp system works well with swords and bows where battles are supposed to be long and epic, with the hero getting cut dozens of times and have arrows sticking out every which way yet still be fighting.

Guns on the other hand only really work if they are lethal. Givin in even the most player hating system in the word a single handgun bullet has little chance of killing a player alone, but a bullet even from a weak gun needs to be powerful enough to cause significant injury in order for guns to work right.

What sort of games have you been playing?

In D20, lethal guns is easy as anything. In D20 Call of Cthulhu, most handguns do 2d6 and most rifles 2d10 or more damage, and the massive damage limit is 10 points. The average rifle shot requires a save to avoid death (and there's no cloaks of resistance etc. helping you make those saves).

In GURPS or Cyberpunk 2020, a single gunshot can easily kill you.


Also, what sort of action movies have you not been watching...? :smalltongue:

Roderick_BR
2007-01-18, 05:44 AM
Actually, D&D lacks good gun rules. According to history, armors were dropped because they were useless against firearms. However, if you play two gunners, and one is in full plate, he has better chances to survive.
My take on it: All firearms are exotic and powerful (usually criticals are 19-20/x3, and a good damage. just check the DM's book), and finding/making amunnition should be costly.
In combat, they would ignore half the AC's bonus from armors (includind magical bonuses)

Attention: politic inside joke!
Back in the 2nd edition, the Player's Handbook had only one firearm, I don't remember the name, but in Portuguese it was called "arcabus".
When my friends and I started playing 3.0, we continued calling firearms "arcabus" out of habit... then a few years ago we started to call them "arcaBush"... :smallbiggrin:

Indon
2007-01-18, 08:49 AM
Hmm. Well, for a gun-using character, I'd pick rogue, ranger, or warrior, same as I would with a bow-using character. The two weapon types are very mechanically similar. I'd also pick similar feats, with the exception of any availible rapid-reload feat I could grab for a non-modern firearm.

Now, mind that unless you're in a campaign where you get to use modern firearms or something similar (the most recent Warcraft D20 adaptation comes to mind), guns are generally rather weak, with dirt-slow reloading times, and are usually meant to be combat openers.

As for using firearms, tactically, it would be a lot like making and playing a crossbow-user, for primitive firearms, or a longbow user for more modern ones.

Indoril
2007-01-18, 09:06 AM
I had some Dread Pirates wielding muskets and flintlocks once, just because I thought it was a cool idea.

Anyone who is going to use guns though has to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (specific gun). They aren't covered under simple or martial.

twipper
2007-01-18, 09:21 AM
Cook's Ptolus campaign setting, which I'm currently using, has degraded steamtech, which obviously includes the availability of firearms and cannon. Being a somewhat lazy DM, I only require Exotic Weapon: Firearms for anything that is hand held.

Any you never quite forget the first time the party runs up against a bunch of wimpy little ratlings w/pistols and sniper rifles

silvermesh
2007-01-18, 10:09 AM
Even in a modern D&D setting (like d20 modern), guns don't really work like guns. The hp system works well with swords and bows where battles are supposed to be long and epic, with the hero getting cut dozens of times and have arrows sticking out every which way yet still be fighting.

Guns on the other hand only really work if they are lethal.

thats a really silly thing to say.

the longbow was far more devastating a weapon than the early firearm. having a dozen arrows sticking out of you is exactly as realistic as having a dozen bullet-holes in you. the only major difference is the bullet wound is usually cleaner. Most longbowmen pierced armor pretty effectively.

all weapons are deadly. The only reason people think firearms should be more deadly is because we assume that they are far more deadly than weapons of old, and they aren't. they're just so much easier to use that they put deadly into the hands of the untrained.

silvermesh
2007-01-18, 10:19 AM
Hmm. Well, for a gun-using character, I'd pick rogue, ranger, or warrior, same as I would with a bow-using character. The two weapon types are very mechanically similar. I'd also pick similar feats, with the exception of any availible rapid-reload feat I could grab for a non-modern firearm.

If your setting doesn't have a rapid reload, just pick up quick-draw and keep plenty of pistols pre-loaded :smallbiggrin:

I built a "gun-monk" once flurrying one-shot pistols.(house rule allowed a monk to pick a single weapon he could flurry with) Flurry+TwF+Rapid Shot. thats a lot of shots, and he had a high enough dex that he could actually hit fairly often
:smallwink:

Matthew
2007-01-18, 10:43 AM
thats a really silly thing to say.

the longbow was far more devastating a weapon than the early firearm. having a dozen arrows sticking out of you is exactly as realistic as having a dozen bullet-holes in you. the only major difference is the bullet wound is usually cleaner. Most longbowmen pierced armor pretty effectively.

all weapons are deadly. The only reason people think firearms should be more deadly is because we assume that they are far more deadly than weapons of old, and they aren't. they're just so much easier to use that they put deadly into the hands of the untrained.

Well, whilst I agree with some of this, the effectiveness of Long Bows, in particular, is up for debate and hotly contested on both sides. We should probably leave it for the Real Weapons and Armour Thread, though.

I just give Fire Arms a Strength Rating and let it apply to Attack Bonus (does not stack with Dexterity Bonus) and Damage Bonus.

MrNexx
2007-01-18, 10:54 AM
Well, a few suggestions...

Decide how lethal you want guns to be. If you want them to be fairly lethal, I would suggest "exploding damage dice"... any die that comes up maximum gets rolled again and added to the total. Then pick a standard die size for all guns, with larger weapons simply doing more dice (otherwise, probability gets weird, and people start using wimpy weapons because they have a good probability of exploding dice).

How common is gunpowder going to be in your game? How much is it going to cost of 1 shot? For 10? This is going to affect the frequency with which gunners shoot.

What are the rules for fighting with a pistol in your off hand? Not using it... just having a sword in one hand, and a pistol in the other, and using them as appropriate? Is this feat-worthy? Skill worthy? So essential it should be free?

Lapak
2007-01-18, 11:04 AM
I just give Fire Arms a Strength Rating and let it apply to Attack Bonus (does not stack with Dexterity Bonus) and Damage Bonus.

...

That may be the best simulation of gunfire in d20 I've heard of, mechanically. It allows for crappy guns to have less penetrating power and less stopping power, it overrides the user's strength bonus as it should; I like it.

CharPixie
2007-01-18, 11:06 AM
when I had guns in a campaign setting, I used the d20 modern ones as a base. they compare quite nice against bows, and generally outstrip crossbows in most ways. which was easy enough; i allowed crossbow feats to be applied to bows; had a character who could quickload his wincester.

(pistols and rifles did damage comparable to a str 16 or 18 mighty bow, but had less range)

now, to make them less useful than the modern ones, i'd recommend shortening their ranges, reducing their clip size, and lengthening their load times. depends how far back you want to go. if you want to recreate the gonne, you might consider making a one-shot, inaccurate but powerful weapon that has nothing to do with what i just said.

Now, if you aren't the DM... you should really run it past her. you are bound to get a strong reaction once you mention guns, so it's best to do it early in your concept rather than later.

clarkvalentine
2007-01-18, 11:07 AM
I'll second Nexx on this. DOn't design your gun rules to be realistic; design your guns rules so that players will use guns in the manner you imagine.

Want everyone to have a pistol or two strapped to them somewhere? Make 'em simple weapons. Want them to be rare and scary? Make them exotic.

Want them to be devastatingly lethal? Use the exploding dice idea. On the other hand, you could make them like crossbows and be certain they won't unbalance anything.

How do you want them to be used in combat? If you imagine "Shoot once then to swords!" make their reload times long and make them expensive. "Shoot lots of pre-loaded pistols, arrr!" make their reload times long and make them cheap. "Gunfight at the OK Corral!" make their reload times short and make them cheap.

MrNexx
2007-01-18, 11:10 AM
I just give Fire Arms a Strength Rating and let it apply to Attack Bonus (does not stack with Dexterity Bonus) and Damage Bonus.

That's not a bad idea, actually. How big of a strength rating do your guns get, on average?

Matthew
2007-01-18, 11:23 AM
Well, with default D&D I use the same mechanics for Cross Bows and a similar one for Bows, but tend to cap them at around +6. Guns I allow to go past that, but really it varies with the campaign and how deadly I want Guns to be. A Strength rating of +6 might be a reasonable average for a Muzzlel Loaded Pistol, Musket or Rifled Musket (the key distinctions being Range Increments). A Musket +5 (or Pistol or Rifled Musket) would mean [1D6 x3] +11 AB/+11 DB. There is some temptation to consider Muskets as 'Two Handed' meaning +6 AB / +9 DB, etc...

Martial Weapons (Alternative) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31788)
Simple Weapons (Alternative) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31637)

Darrin
2007-01-18, 11:24 AM
According to history, armors were dropped because they were useless against firearms.

That's not entirely correct. Longbows and polearms were actually much more effective at penetrating armor than firearms (just ask the French about Agincourt). In fact, given the low muzzle velocities and soft bullets, metal armor was probably surprisingly effective against firearms.

The real reason metal armor fell out of favor has more to do with economics than the development of firearms. It's incredibly, horrendously expensive to train, outfit, and support armored cavalry. On top of the cost of the armor, you've got to train your soldiers how to wear it, fight in it, how to charge on horseback, etc. The cost was so high that knights, squires, and prospective mercenaries that couldn't afford to outfit themselves often demanded special privileges from their employers which generally involved the right to claim any possessions from defeated foes (i.e. their armor and weapons) and the right to pillage/loot/rape a fallen city first. That "code of chivalry" nonsense was generally only found in romantic fairy tales.

What really spelled doom for armored cavalry was large formations of pikemen. This is why 1st ed. AD&D had so many friggin' polearms... they were all developed in different regions and historical periods to deal with cavalry charges. Large numbers of square formations with pikes was absolutely devastating... mostly because they were mind-numbingly cheap. For the cost and time investment of one suit of armor, you could make hundreds if not thousands of "sharp pointy sticks". Training pikemen was also amazingly cheap, particularly when you made it mandatory for any males above a certain age, and it was easy to train large groups of unskilled illiterate peasants at the same time. The formation marching you see with marching bands and military units is an almost-forgotten holdover of this training.

What spelled doom for the pikemen squares was faster, more reliable firearms, in particular the flintlock because it was simple enough that it could be manufactured quickly and cheaply in large numbers. Muskets first appeared at the corners of the squares, where they had the widest field of fire. Given that they were generally shooting at another large group of men in formation, accuracy wasn't a big deal. Musketeers were more of an afterthought suited mostly for random sniper work, as their slow rate of fire meant you'd get maybe one shot off before the enemy charged into melee range. In fact, Alexander Dumas' "Three Musketeers" were known mostly for their prowess with swordplay... I can't recall any adaptation that actually has them even touch a musket.

Flintlocks had a faster rate of fire than muskets, and as they became more popular, someone figured out if you gave everyone in the formation a gun and then trained them to fire in massed coordinated volleys, they could tear another formation to shreds before they got close enough to stab you with their pikes.

So, as far as introducing firearms into a D&D campaign... it's best to put some thought into what sort of mass combat you want in your world. If you prefer mounted knights carving their way through axemen, firearms would be an expensive curiousity, a hunting weapon that would look out of place on a battlefield (and to be fair, about as silly as a double weapon or spiked chain). If armored cavalry is rare and most standing armies consist of large groups of men stabbing each other with polearms, then firearms would probably be one-shot specialist weapons you toss once the enemy is within stabbing range. If technology in your world has advanced to the point where multiple ranks of flintlocks are cutting each other down across fields choked with smoke, then *not* carrying around a firearm would look a bit daft.

I don't recall the exact specifics, but I think the firearms in the DMG are somewhere around the "exotic hunting weapon" level of technology. If you introduce feats or new weapons with a faster reload time, then that's more of a "large groups of men with sharp pointy sticks" kind of development.

Lapak
2007-01-18, 12:05 PM
In fact, Alexander Dumas' "Three Musketeers" were known mostly for their prowess with swordplay... I can't recall any adaptation that actually has them even touch a musket.
Not to take away from your basic point, but they actually used firearms, including muskets, in the book itself when they were fighting a battle. They dueled and swashbuckled with swords; as soldiers they used firearms just as much.

krossbow
2007-01-18, 12:22 PM
Yeah, anyone who says that they didn't use guns obviously never read the book.

First: MUSKETEERS. MUSKET. EERS. They use muskets; thats their whole name!



second: The biggest battle they probably experienced, or at least the one where they killed the most people relied almost exlusively on guns. They propped a few dead bodies up in the area that they were holed up in so the enemy would fire at them, and then they just unloaded as much as possible using their muskets from the shadows.

Darrin
2007-01-18, 12:30 PM
Not to take away from your basic point, but they actually used firearms, including muskets, in the book itself when they were fighting a battle. They dueled and swashbuckled with swords; as soldiers they used firearms just as much.

...which is why I said "adaptation" instead of book. =) To go horribly off-topic (what is it with me and adverbs today? Everything is horribly, stupendously, shockingly adverbific all of a sudden):

I can't really comment on the book... even though Dumas was stupendously popular, from what I've been able to determine his English translations tend to be abridged (thus unreadable) or translated very badly (same result). I tried starting the Count of Monte Cristo at one point, but got disgusted with the soul-crushingly simplistic heavy-handed childish tone and gave up after the first chapter or so (a crime I level at the translator, given the work's lasting international popularity). I was much happier with the overwrought Hollywood movie that of course mangled the ending into something very syrrupy and happy. Haven't attempted any other Dumas since then... my only experience with the Three Musketeers is through Hollywood attrocities: 1) Three of them? Why am I counting four? 2) "Musket? What the f*** is that?" 3) Charlie Sheen trying to act French oh gawd must BRILLO-PAD MY EYES.

According to Wikipedia, the fastest flintlock experts could reload a smoothbore rifle in 15 seconds. That's a reload time of 2.5 to 3 full-round actions... ouch, in any version of D&D you'd be completely torn to shreds if you tried to reload (although... possibly not a bad job for an Unseen Servant, but then if you could cast Unseen Servant, why aren't you casting Magic Missile instead?). Assuming the enemy was charging 60' a round, they'd have to be over 180' away to get more than one shot off. Although I guess you'd have two or three ranks switching off volleys every round or so.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-18, 02:37 PM
I introduced a gun into my DnD campaign awhile ago and just used the rules for d20 modern for it. The character that ended up with it had to spend an exotic weapon feat on it ammo was scarce at first but then he had clips made that produced infinite ammo it was expensive for him and not game breaking for the group.

Rarkasha
2007-01-18, 02:57 PM
Iron Kingdoms, which someone half mentioned earlier, is a steampunk-ish setting with guns, among other technological advances. I'd say they're fairly balanced for the Iron Kingdoms setting itself, but it might depend on your campaign.

http://www.privateerpress.com/ Has a free excerpt of some of the guns, and what you have to do to reload them (keeping in theme with flintlock type guns, they take a while to reload and require a skill check, but not 15 seconds long). It also has another example of a specific gun using class. The book itself has some gun related feats and gun customizations, which may not be balanced to regular DnD, though.

Lapak
2007-01-18, 02:58 PM
I tried starting the Count of Monte Cristo at one point, but got disgusted with the soul-crushingly simplistic heavy-handed childish tone and gave up after the first chapter or so (a crime I level at the translator, given the work's lasting international popularity).
...
The Count of Monte Cristo is my favorite novel, and I've only ever read it in English. Takes all sorts, I guess! For my money, the style is actually quite effective, as the way in which he writes and the expectations of the narrator are held up against the reality of the situation. It takes most of the novel for the contrast between what-is-presented and what-is-the-truth starts to come out, but the way that conflict builds to the climax is really one of the defining moments of literature for me. :smallsmile:

Everybody gets something different out of books, though; I completely understand if it didn't ring your bell.

MightyMuenster
2007-01-18, 05:54 PM
Sorry if this has been said, but maybe just set up a rule where damage with a gun requires a Fortitude save for instant death? Not too difficult of a save, but enough to reflect the lethality of it, you know?

TimeWizard
2007-01-18, 06:04 PM
Thanks for all the input everyone! I should have explained the game setting, it's you're standard DnD type fantasy that doesn't strictly adhere to one type of culture or time. Samurai's and Paladins argue about job philosophy, there are guilds of theives and assassins, plate mail exists, and one can get Akbar Jeff's Flying Airship for 25k gp. It's not from the Fin al Fantasy world, but the DM is a fan and touches on the FF serious for inspiration and execution. As is, guns are looking like Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Firearms. Now for damage, it's leaning towards pistols are 1d6, and the rifle is 1d10.

The way I envision it: Start combat with a rifle shot, maybe use some rogue sneak attack and point blank shot for bonus damage. Next turn, attack with two pistols, next turn, rapier (finesse) while flanking to finish off the remaining enemies.

Problems: are pistols subject to two weapon fighting? Is there a way to do ranged flanking? and lastly, making it worth a feat: up the damage? increase the range?

Matthew
2007-01-18, 06:11 PM
Yes. If you use Two Pistols, you are subject to Two Weapon Fighting. For 1D6 Damage, don't be surprised if Player Characters forgo the option.

TimeWizard
2007-01-18, 07:39 PM
so then, pistols are 1d8, and rifles are what, 2d6? hmmm, if it make it expensive and require alchemy checks then it could stretch to d10, 2d10. Assuming that, any help with the build? Fighter/rogue?

Matthew
2007-01-18, 07:46 PM
Which build? I think I missed the request.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use a Pistol.
Two Weapon Fighting to use Two Pistols.
You need to decide if Pistols are Light or One Handed.

If you want them to be more attractive than Bows, you need to have them pack a punch, as they aren't going to reload too quick.

I would make a Pistol:

Pistol (Exotic Light Ranged Weapon)
Cost: 200+ GP
Damage: 1D6+6
Critical Range: x3
Range: 30 ft.
Damage Type: Piercing
Weight: 2 lbs

Special: You can use the Strength Rating of the Pistol (+6) in place of your Dexterity Bonus to modify the Attack Roll. Reload Time is Two Full Round Actions.

Swordguy
2007-01-18, 09:22 PM
Guns for D&D

Firearms work differently from most normal weapons. They are Ranged Touch Attack weapons. They subsitute the -2 per range increment attack penalty for a variable attack penalty (dependent on weapon type) per range increment. They also have a base Inaccuracy penalty that always applies no matter what the range (dependent of weapon type).

Additionally, all Firearms trigger an immediate Fortitude check (DC dependent upon weapon type); failure results in a result idential to that of a failed save from the Death from Massive Damage rule. Armor worn by the target modifies this number; Chain Mail adds +1 to the DC, Half-plate and full-plate subtract 1 from the DC.

All Firearms have a reload time expressed in the number of standard actions required before the gun can be fired again. Reloading a firearm requires a Reloading Kit (XXXgp - dependent upon campaign needs) that may be bought in Masterwork form (double cost) that decreases the number of standard actions needed for reloading the weapon by 2. Any method used to increase the number of standard actions a wielder recieves in a round may be used to decrease reload time.

Finally, all Firearms have a Malfunction number; if this number is rolled on the To-hit roll, the weapon does not function, and 1 full-round action is required to reset the firearm so it may be used again. A critical failure results in explosion dealing the weapon's damage rating to the weilder (no save, Fire) half the time and the weapon is ruined. If no explosion occurs, the weapon is simply treated as failing the Malfunction check.

Firearms are grouped by Mechanism Type for purposes of Proficiencies. An Exotic Weapon Proficiency is required for each category of (Matchlock Firearms), (Wheellock Firearms), and (Flintlock Firearms).

All Firearms deal Piercing damage, and may be used as Bludgeoning weapons in melee (as a Club or Pistols and Greatclub for Rifles, always at a -4 Improvised Weapon penalty). Daggers may be affixed to Rifles (+10 gp to so modify the dagger) and will deal an additional +1 damage when so affixed, but the Rifle may not be fired (if fired, it explodes automatically, with listed effects). The weilder may not use abilities that key off of one's ability to wield a dagger or small weapon while the dagger is affixed to a rifle.

FIREARM TYPES
Matchlock Pistol
Weight: 4 lbs
Damage: 2d4/x3
Range: 10 ft. (-6 per full range increment after the 1st)
Base Inaccuracy Penalty: -4
Fortitude Save: 5+damage dealt
Malfunction: 1-5 (1-8 in wet conditions, may not be used underwater)
Reload Time: 8 standard actions

Wheelock Pistol
Weight: 3 lbs
Damage: 2d4/x3
Range: 10 ft. (-6 per full range increment after the 1st)
Base Inaccuracy Penalty: -4
Fortitude Save: 5+damage dealt
Malfunction: 1-4(1-5 in wet conditions)
Reload Time: 10 standard actions

Flintlock Pistol
Weight: 3 lbs
Damage: 2d4+1/x3
Range: 15 ft. (-6 per full range increment after the 1st)
Base Inaccuracy Penalty: -4
Fortitude Save: 7+damage dealt
Malfunction: 1-2(1-3 in wet conditions)
Reload Time: 10 standard actions

Matchlock Rifle
Weight: 12 lbs
Damage: 2d8/x3
Range: 20 ft. (-4 per full range increment after the 1st)
Base Inaccuracy Penalty: -2
Fortitude Save: 10+damage dealt
Malfunction: 1-5 (1-8 in wet conditions, may not be used underwater)
Reload Time: 8 standard actions

Wheelock Rifle
Weight: 12 lbs
Damage: 2d8/x3
Range: 20 ft. (-4 per full range increment after the 1st)
Base Inaccuracy Penalty: -2
Fortitude Save: 10+damage dealt
Malfunction: 1-4(1-5 in wet conditions)
Reload Time: 10 standard actions

Flintlock Rifle
Weight: 10 lbs
Damage: 2d8+1/x3
Range: 30 ft. (-4 per full range increment after the 1st)
Base Inaccuracy Penalty: -2
Fortitude Save: 15+damage dealt
Malfunction: 1-2(1-3 in wet conditions)
Reload Time: 10 standard actions

Heck of a first post, yes?

Mr_Teatime
2007-01-18, 09:51 PM
I would second the vote for Iron Kingdoms-style guns, seeing as the way they're generally used in game is pretty similar to what you describe e.g. "pop a few caps, then melee". They're pretty expensive, though, as is the ammunition. If you want them to be more plentiful, dropping the prices for the rounds might be a good idea.

Also, if you're going to build a sniper, the rifleman class (http://privateerpress.com/ironkingdoms/default.php?x=rules/prc/rifleman) would be definately worth looking into.

Issue 9 of No Quarter magazine (produced by Privateer Press) has some more exotic (a revolver and a hand-held cannon to be specific) IK guns and a few feats in it. Might be worth a look if your local gaming store has it in stock.

TimeWizard
2007-01-18, 11:58 PM
Thanks Swordguy and Mr Teatime. Or is it Te-ah-tim-eh?

Thomas
2007-01-19, 05:26 AM
Sorry if this has been said, but maybe just set up a rule where damage with a gun requires a Fortitude save for instant death? Not too difficult of a save, but enough to reflect the lethality of it, you know?

That's the massive damage thing. Make the limit 10 points (a gunshot that deals 10+ damage requires a save), and the DC 15.


Not to take away from your basic point, but they actually used firearms, including muskets, in the book itself when they were fighting a battle. They dueled and swashbuckled with swords; as soldiers they used firearms just as much.

They did swashbuckle with pistols, too. Athos fires a pair when he covers D'artagnan's retreat in an inn while they're on their way back from England with the message for the Queen, right?

Hannes
2007-01-19, 05:41 AM
I know one person who could draw & shoot two pistols as fast as a hurricane plus with perfect accuracy. No I am not talking 'bout Roland

turn.self.off
2007-01-19, 06:43 AM
Sorry if this has been said, but maybe just set up a rule where damage with a gun requires a Fortitude save for instant death? Not too difficult of a save, but enough to reflect the lethality of it, you know?


thats what is done in D20 modern. more damage then con in a single attack? do a fortitude(15) save or go to -1 hp instantly. its known as the massive damage save.

hmm, now that i think about it, the massive damage save is in D&D also. but there i think the trigger is a flat 50 damage or something similar.

btw, there is a source book for d20 modern called d20 past. it covers everything from the time of the musketeers on to WW2.

all in all, hp can do realism, thing is that D20 based games from wotc is heroic in styling. basically, they are designed not do simulate grim reality, but action movie reality where the hero can walk into a room, both guns blazing, and survive.

if you want blood splattering realism then D20 products from wotc may not be your best bet. while i have not been able to get hold of a copy myself, i have the impression that grim tales is a better source if the combo wanted is D20 and grim realism...

clarkvalentine
2007-01-19, 09:23 AM
while i have not been able to get hold of a copy myself, i have the impression that grim tales is a better source if the combo wanted is D20 and grim realism...


Grim Tales is pretty flippin' cool, I must say.

Swordguy
2007-01-19, 10:50 AM
I know one person who could draw & shoot two pistols as fast as a hurricane plus with perfect accuracy. No I am not talking 'bout Roland

To be fair, are those modern firearms or archaic smoothbore models?

Jayabalard
2007-01-19, 11:27 AM
if you're looking for ideas, the 2nd and later books in Joel Rosenberg's "Guardian's of the flame" series have a fantasy RPG world (literally) where guns start being introduced. They start off with black powder weapons, and the wizard's guild that is thier opposition copies them, but does it using magically created powder, which use water rather than fire, so the opposition's guns work very differently. It might be interesting source material if you really want to incorporate guns into that sort of campaign.


That's not entirely correct. Longbows and polearms were actually much more effective at penetrating armor than firearms (just ask the French about Agincourt). In fact, given the low muzzle velocities and soft bullets, metal armor was probably surprisingly effective against firearms.
I've read the same from several sources.


In fact, Alexander Dumas' "Three Musketeers" were known mostly for their prowess with swordplay... I can't recall any adaptation that actually has them even touch a musket.This one (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072281/) and it's sequel (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073012/) both have them using muskets occasionally. The goofs refer's to thier weapons (some anachronisms). A scene that stands out from the sequel: the breakfast at the Bastion where they were indeed shooting at the enemy without swordplay.

Matthew
2007-01-19, 11:33 AM
I've read the same from several sources.

Just out of interest, which sources and concerning which assertion? Bows and Spears being more effective than early Guns or Body Armour providing good protection?

Jayabalard
2007-01-19, 12:01 PM
Specifically the effectiveness of longbowmen against heavy armor. I could dig around next week and find some specific sources; everything in my place is in boxes (I'm moving this weekend) right now, though it is quite possible that the books are at my parent's place.

Matthew
2007-01-19, 12:12 PM
Ah right. Yeah, a strongly contested field. A recent Ministry of Defence test supposedly proved the effectiveness of the Long Bow, but as far as I can tell they weren't using live targets...

The core of the problem is that a direct hit on Body Armour with a Spear is likely going to penetrate it. About all that can be said about Body Armour is that those who could afford it tended to wear it.

Long Bows depended almost entirely on the strength of the user, but then there is the lengthy discussion about the quality of the Arrow Heads and the Armour and so on. The advantages and disadvantages are all relative, though.

If you do find your references, it might be worth bringing them up on the Real World Weapons and Armour Thread.

blacksabre
2007-01-19, 01:12 PM
My Gun use Rules
Requires exotic Weapon Feat..and Crafting feat/component to make Ammo..or expensive/rare to obtain
You can use a Two weapon fighting feat (for pistols) Musket and Pistol each reqiure Exotic weapon feat
1. Smoothe bore weapons suck in accuracy. To Hit chance diminishes dramatically for each range increment
2. Up side, (my opinion) target gets full DEX bonus, but only partial Armor AC...some armor better then others..
3. Damage Based on caliber+bleeding HP per number of round
3. Succesfull hit requires Fort Save 15+ caliber increment, or fall unconscience
4. Muskets/Single Shot: +3 accuracy, +10 Increment range, reload 2 rounds
5. Pistol/2 charges (barrels): Reload 2 rounds per barrel..No Acc\Rng adjustments
The basics..
Sorry for the format

I have 3 caliber ranges, Small, medium,large
Caliber Damage Range Increment Fort Save
Small 1D4 then 1D4 per 1D4 rnds 10 Feet/-8 15/ Fall unconscience 1D4 rounds(New save each round to recover)
Medium 1D6 then 1D6 per 1D6 rnds 15 Feet/-6 16/ Fall unconscience 1D6 rounds(New save each round to recover)
Large 1D8 then 1D8 per 1D8 rnds 20 Feet/-4 17/ Fall unconscience 1D8 rounds(New save each round to recover)

MrNexx
2007-01-19, 01:27 PM
if you're looking for ideas, the 2nd and later books in Joel Rosenberg's "Guardian's of the flame" series have a fantasy RPG world (literally) where guns start being introduced. It might be interesting source material if you really want to incorporate guns into that sort of campaign.


I've intermittently worked on an RPG set in that universe; never got around to writing down all the necessary mechanics (was planning a homebrew system), and certainly not to the point of talking to Joel about licensing... or even looking into the feasibility of licensing.

Hannes
2007-01-19, 01:28 PM
To be fair, are those modern firearms or archaic smoothbore models?

Uhm. Well... They're top of the class Wild West revolvers ^^;;;

Swordguy
2007-01-19, 01:46 PM
Guns/Arrows vs. Armor taken over to the Real World Weapon/Armor Thread.

Be there!

Dervag
2007-01-19, 09:34 PM
One point about rates of fire:

Before the invention of the Miniť ball (the 'bullet shaped' bullet), all guns fired spherical shot. With spherical shot, a rifle or accurate smoothbore is MUCH harder to load than an inaccurate smoothbore for a very simple reason- windage.

Windage is the inaccuracy imposed by the bullet bouncing back and forth from one side of the barrel to the other as it exits the gun. It's the reason shotgun pellets don't go in a straight line out the muzzle. Obviously, if the bullet is a very close fit to the diameter of the barrel, then there will be very little windage. Even a smoothbore can be accurate if the windage is low enough- modern tank guns are smoothbores and are accurate out to thousands of meters.

But making a smoothbore with a barrel diameter uniform enough to accept a tight-fitting bullet is very hard. You need precision to thousandths of an inch (tenths of a millimeter). Any kind of rifle requires a tight-fitting bullet, because the lead of the bullet has to 'catch' in the rifling grooves of the barrel.

Loading a muzzle-loader (be it a rifle or a smoothbore) with a tightfitting bullet is a real pain. You literally have to hammer the bullet down into the gun. It takes a long time and it's very awkward. You can greatly improve your muzzle-loader's rate of fire by making the bullet significantly narrower than the barrel (say, 1/20 of an inch or about a millimeter). Then you can just insert the bullet into the muzzle and let it roll down the barrel, using a ramrod only to make sure that it's firmly seated on the powder charge in the breech.

The cost is that a bullet significantly narrower than the barrel will have a huge windage problem, so that the bullets may come out anywhere in a cone originating from the muzzle (like shotgun pellets). That isn't a big deal if you're firing in a line with a hundred other musketeers, because even if you won't hit the target directly in front of you, one of your buddies probably will. But it is a big deal when you only have one or two guys firing the guns, so they're more likely to want ammunition that fits the barrel tightly. That requires a much higher standard of manufacture for the weapons and ammunition and increases the time and difficulty of reloading your gun.

Murongo
2007-01-19, 10:31 PM
Not sure if it was mentioned but D20 modern does have an excuse for bullets. Your death from massive damage threatened range is your constitution score. Meaning a bullet that does 13 damage to a 13 con hero is enough to provoke death from massive damage.

Means that when you're level 10 you don't just shrug off bullets.

Zincorium
2007-01-19, 11:51 PM
Not sure if it was mentioned but D20 modern does have an excuse for bullets. Your death from massive damage threatened range is your constitution score. Meaning a bullet that does 13 damage to a 13 con hero is enough to provoke death from massive damage.

Means that when you're level 10 you don't just shrug off bullets.

Unless you're a tough hero, designed specifically to be able to curse at your opponent in russian even after they've emptied an entire clip of .50 into your prone form (kudos for anyone who gets the reference).

Even for normal characters, you aren't dead just from the failed massive damage check, you're just at 0. I.E. with a trained paramedic standing by (I'm looking at you, dedicated hero no. 2...) you can survive as long as they didn't decide to put another round into your skull for good measure.

Thomas
2007-01-20, 12:14 PM
Not sure if it was mentioned but D20 modern does have an excuse for bullets.

Yeah, I think we've mentioned it a total 4-5 times now...

Feralgeist
2007-01-21, 06:39 AM
Just use the Rules for guns that they use in iron kingdoms. They're good, as in....not ****.

http://www.privateerpress.com/docs/privateer_firearms.pdf

YPU
2007-01-21, 03:35 PM
On the topic of iron kingdom, what do we think about the classes based on guns. There is a gunmage (http://privateerpress.com/docs/Gun_Mage_PrivateerPress8-11.pdf)baseclass and a rifleman (http://privateerpress.com/ironkingdoms/default.php?x=rules/prc/rifleman)prestigeclass.

Feralgeist
2007-01-26, 08:38 AM
They are good, actually. Pretty damn good. There's also a pistoleer prestige class, which is more focused on gunplay than magic. The rifleman with the sharpshooter feat ( Apply dex bonus as damage bonus to damage rolls with ranged weapons) gets alot of damage output.

Black Hand
2007-01-26, 10:52 AM
I do have guns in my campaign world, but they are rare and only available in certain civilizations that have advanced, and even then they archaic. I primarily use the info in one of the Dragon Mags that highlight firearms... (I cant remember what Issue, but If I find out I'll post it))... Even then as mentioned in previous posts, that they don't 'act' like guns vs the hp system or even armor.

What I tend to do with firearms is take a bit of 2E into it where
The first 5 points of Armor class bonus is subtracted from the total...So Leather would provide +0 to AC while full plate would only be +3.
Plus the Crit range is tweaked to add to the lethality of certain firearms such as it being 18-20, but I also have a chance of failure/fumble on a natural 1-5. Either way I make them hard to come by, expensive to maintian and even harder to repair.