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Wolf53226
2007-01-19, 01:31 PM
This is a thought that came out of the Two Weapon Fighting Sucks thread, and I think this build will be a bad guy in a PnP game I am running, I wanted to see if I could build a TWF based on being able to trip with a whip in his off hand. Please give me your thoughts:

Half-Orc(Ranger 3/Fighter 4/Exotic Weapon Master 3)
Original stats after buy from my Campaign:
Str: 18 Dex: 10 Con: 16 Wis: 10 Int: 16 Chr: 11

After Racial Changes:
Str: 20 Dex: 10 Con: 16 Wis: 10 Int: 14 Chr: 9

Levels/HP(added)/Feat:
1: Ranger (1); 11; Favored Enemies(Humaniod: Human), Track, Wild Empathy, Combat Expertise
2: Ranger (2); 8; Combat Style: Two Weapons
3: Fighter(1); 8; Exotic Weapon Prof: Whip, Improved Trip
4: Fighter(2); 9; Weapon Focus(Whip)
5: Ranger (3); 7; Endurance
6: Fighter(3); 9; Weapon Focus(Long Sword)
7: Fighter(4); 8; Greater Weapon Focus(Whip)
8: Exotic Weapon Master(1); 9; Exotic Weapon Stunt(Trip Attack)
9: Exotic Weapon Master(2); 8; Exotic Weapon Stunt(Close-Quarters Ranged Combat), Greater Weapon Focus(Long Sword)
10:Exotic Weapon Master(3); 9; Exotic Weapon Stunt(Show Off) Or possibly Exotic Weapon Stunt(Ranged Disarm)


Total HP: 86
Stats at level 10:
Str: 22 Dex: 10 Con: 16 Wis: 10 Int: 14 Chr: 9

Attack Bonus: +16/+11

Saves
Fort:+13
Reflex:+5
Will:+3


Really I just threw the two Greater Weapon Focuses in because I couldn't come up with anythng better at the moment. Thoughts, ideas?

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-19, 03:24 PM
oversized two weapon fighting might be a good choice since whip and long sword are one handed weapons.

Indon
2007-01-19, 03:32 PM
Pestilence; I do believe a Whip can be used as if it were a light weapon for the purposes of determining penalties, like a rapier can.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-19, 03:34 PM
Pestilence; I do believe a Whip can be used as if it were a light weapon for the purposes of determining penalties, like a rapier can.

I thought that was only for weapon finesse.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip

Indon
2007-01-19, 03:38 PM
Well, if it doesn't say so, then I guess not.

I can't actually check myself, my place of employment utilizes a filter...

Wolf53226
2007-01-19, 03:38 PM
See, now there is something I missed totally, because I keep thinking that the whip is a light weapon, and for some reason it is not. So I guess I would change the build to this...for now:

1: Ranger (1); 11; Favored Enemies(Humaniod: Human), Track, Wild Empathy, Combat Expertise
2: Ranger (2); 8; Combat Style: Two Weapons
3: Fighter(1); 8; Exotic Weapon Prof: Whip, Improved Trip
4: Fighter(2); 9; Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
5: Ranger (3); 7; Endurance
6: Fighter(3); 9; Weapon Focus(Whip)
7: Fighter(4); 8; Weapon Focus(Long Sword)
8: Exotic Weapon Master(1); 9; Exotic Weapon Stunt(Trip Attack)
9: Exotic Weapon Master(2); 8; Exotic Weapon Stunt(Close-Quarters Ranged Combat), Greater Weapon Focus(Whip)
10:Exotic Weapon Master(3); 9; Exotic Weapon Stunt(Show Off) Or possibly Exotic Weapon Stunt(Ranged Disarm)

This build seemingly gives you a real good chance to trip, and then it would give you a great chance to do some decent damage with the longsword or what ever other weapon you are using.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-19, 03:42 PM
I like the mental image of this character.

Wolf53226
2007-01-19, 03:43 PM
BTW, both weapons have the same text that you can use weapon finesse on them even though they aren't light weapons, but neither state anything about them being treated as light for TWF.

Wolf53226
2007-01-19, 03:44 PM
I like the mental image of this character.

So do I Pestilence, I started building him as a joke, and as I went on, I fell in love with the imagery and concept I was in the process of creating.

Also playing with the idea of giving him diarm abilities, so that if you are right next to him, he tries to trip you, if that succeeds, he gets a free attack as if he has yet to go, then a disarm. So not only are you prone, and been hit, but you are also without a weapon.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-19, 04:07 PM
I keep thinking of the picture of the vigilante prestige class in the complete adventurer I don't even remember what it does but it seems like it was holding a whip and a sword.

Matthew
2007-01-19, 04:34 PM
BTW, both weapons have the same text that you can use weapon finesse on them even though they aren't light weapons, but neither state anything about them being treated as light for TWF.

Indeed. The FAQ also clarifies this point. Niether Rapiers nor Whips count as Light Weapons for Two Weapon Fighting.

Ikkitosen
2007-01-20, 12:19 PM
This reminds me of Zak'Nafein Do'Urden, who used this weapon combo to dominate battlefields on his own. Sorry to Drizzt it up, but he was actually cool.

Anyhow, why all the WF feats? I think you need WF: Whip for EWM, but why the other? Oversized TWF definitely needed.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-21, 05:04 AM
Longest-ass post I've ever made, anywhere, ever, so buckle up.

Duskblade13/Expert1/Fleshwarper6
Alignment
Chaotic Evil
HD
13d10+1d6+6d6

Skill points
(2 + Int modifier) 16
(6 + Int modifier) 1
(6 + Int modifier) 6
32+6+36, with some bonuses for high Int, between +20 to +30 skill points.

Level BAB F R W Skills and Feats of note. Only Career Highlights shown.
DB01 +1 +2 +0 +2 Knowledge(Arcana) 4, Craft(Toothbrush) 4. Just because I can. :P Aberration Blood, Inhuman Reach(+Flaw), Deepspawn(+Flaw)
DB02 +2 +3 +0 +3
DB03 +3 +3 +1 +3 Weapon Focus(Light Mace)
DB04 +4 +4 +1 +4 +Int
DB05 +5 +4 +1 +4 Knowledge(Arcana) 8
DB06 +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Combat Reflexes
EX01 +6/+1 +5 +2 +7 Heal 10
DB07 +7/+2 +5 +2 +7 +Int
DB08 +8/+3 +6 +2 +8 Graft Flesh(Undead or Beholder)
FW01 +8/+3 +8 +2 +8
FW02 +9/+4 +9 +2 +8
FW03 +9/+4 +9 +3 +9 +Dex/Int Multiweapon Fighting Graft Mastery(Fiendish)
FW04 +10/+5 +10 +3 +9
FW05 +10/+5 +10 +3 +9 Graft Mastery(Yuan-Ti or Aboleth)
FW06 +11/+6/+1 +11 +4 +10 Lightning Mace Style
DB09 +12/+7/+2 +11 +5 +10 +Dex/Int
DB10 +13/+8/+3 +12 +5 +11
DB11 +14/+9/+4 +12 +5 +11 Weapon Finesse OR Improved Critical(Light Mace)
DB12 +15/+10/+5 +13 +6 +12
DB13 +16/+11/+6/+1 +13 +6 +12 +Dex/Int

Deepspawn can be dropped, but one flaw has to be taken because Inhuman Reach is practically indispensable(and everything else is necessary)
Powers As Duskblade 13: Arcane Attunement, Armoured Mage(Medium+Heavy Shield), Arcane channeling(Full attack), Quick Cast 2/day, Spell Power 3
Spells per day: As Duskblade 18: 6/10/9/8/7/3
Spells known: 0th: 2+Int / 1st: 5 / 2nd: 4 / 3rd: 4 / 4th: 4 /5th: 2

Powers as Fleshwarper 6: Aberrant Familiar 1 and 2(useless); Elder Secret Choker(+4 Init, +1 Ref); Elder Secret2: Destrachan(immunity sonic damage); Graft Mastery 1: Fiendish; Graft Mastery 2: Aboleth OR Yuan-Ti; Rapid Grafting
Feats:
Aberration Blood
>Inhuman Reach
>>Deepspawn
Multiweapon Fighting
Combat Reflexes
WF(Light Mace)
>>>Lightning Mace(Style)
Graft Flesh(Undead or Beholder)
Combat Casting*B*
Weapon Finesse OR Improved Critical(Light Mace). Depending on whether you expect to be facing well-armoured opponents, the extra 5 AB of Weapon Finesse might be less worthwhile than the doubled chances of Critical Threat.

Ability Scores of note: Dex 20(18+2), Int 16(13+3)

Grafts of note:
Beholder: Crown of Eyes(!Flanking), Eyestalk or Replacement Eye(Only Disintegrate 3/day), Gazing Eye(Cause Fear as gaze attack)
Aboleth: Tentacle(Natural attack+Strength+transform enemies), or Mucus Projector(ranged version, worse, due to downtime+standard action).
Fiendish: Long Arm(+5 foot reach, 15' total reach with Inhuman Reach Feat, your regular arms will always have 5' less reach than these), Grappling Tentacle(useful for grabbing opponents) Springing Leg, Strong Leg, Fast Leg(Contingent on Swift versions of spells qualifying as the regular version for item-crafting), Feathered Wings(Same reasons as Fast Leg), Membranous wings(Same reasons as Fast Leg)
Undead: Bonemail, Enervating Arm, Weakening Arm
Yuan-Ti: Scaly Skin, Serpent Arm(multiple bites)

Spells of Grafting Interest:
Undead: Ray of enfeeblement, Enervate, Ghoul Touch(this last one is useless without Gentle Repose)
Fiendish: Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Ghoul Touch, Jump(More than one, if Swift Expeditious Retreat counts). Possibly Swift Fly/Expeditious Retreat
Aboleth: No spells required.

Spells of Channeling Interest:
Cause Fear(Useful for provoking AoOs on everyone in range, if they close within your massive reach)
Channeled Pyroburst(Up in the air whether it is allowed to detonate once per attack that lands)
Chill Touch
Colour Spray(Swap out at 5th level)
Dimension Hop
Dispelling Touch
Disintegrate(Once per attack!)
Enervate(Same!)
Ghoul Touch
Hold Monster
Kelgore's Fire bolt
Ray of Enfeeblement(Instant Immobilisation see below)
Ray of Exhaustion(see above)
Shocking Grasp
Touch of Fatigue
Vampiric Touch(Draining weapon)
Touch of Idiocy

Spells of Buffing Interest:
Animalistic Power
Bear's Endurance
Bull's Strength
Cat's Grace
Crown spells
Fire Shield(Being immune to fire is extremely useful if you decide the Pyroburst detonates each time you hit)
Spider Climb
Toxic Weapon(Technically, the class ability should trump the spell description, allowing it to affect as many people as you can hit in a single round)
Oddly no Fox's Cunning.
Stretch Weapon is somewhat useless, since it only works on one attack(and can only be cast once per round)

Probably a few spells I missed out, but those were the ones that caught my eye.

The Meat and Bones of this build.

Fleshwarper Graft Reserve: 500, 700, 900, 1.200, 1,500, 2,000
Extra Experience to burn from levels 21-25: 110,000
If all Graft Reserve from Fleshwarper 3 onwards, as well as all Experience from levels 21-25 is spent on Long Arms, you can have as many as 578 15' reach arms, each doing 3 attacks(or one of them doing a 4th attack, if you don't use your 2 regular arms or tentacles from Deepspawn) Of course, the cost would be crippling, at 2500 gold per arm. At 760k gold for a level 20 character, you can "only" afford 304 arms, before armour and weapon costs(plus whatever miscellany).

You can only afford 2/3 as many Serpent Arms, 1/4 as many Grappling Tentacles, 1/7th as many Aboleth Mucus Projectors, 1/10th as many Aboleth Tentacles, 1/39th as many Eye Stalks, etc. Most of these we are not interested in anyway.

Now, let's pare this back to a reasonable number. Say, 100 Long Arms. This will cost us a mere 50,000 gold, leaving us with a comfortable 700,000 gold for whatever miscellaneous equipment we might want. Plain Light Maces cost a mere 5gp each, for a total cost of 500 gp for all your weapon needs(excluding the negligible 20 or so for your shorter extremities), which suits us just fine, since most of our damage will be in the form of channeled spells anyway. If you really want to get all spendthrift and such, I suppose you could spend 30500 gp for a set of 100 masterwork maces. Or 646100 gp enchanting 20 of them with Brilliant Energy. Personally? I'd enchant half of them with Disruption(415250) and the other half with Defending(115250). Or even 1/3 Disruption(274065), 1/3 Ghost Touch(76065), 1/3 Defending(76065). Or even just 20 of them with Disruption, unless you plan on facing more than 1 incorporeal opponent.

Combat: You cast a spell to channel, then whale away with all 100 Long Arms at any and every opponent within a 15' radius(and another 7 more attacks on anyone in a 10' radius). If you happen to land a critical(which you will, given that you're rolling 100 d20s just for those arms alone), use the extra attack to smack anyone still standing or that you may have missed.

Problems: Aside from the obvious, we need to find some way to fit in the rest of the MWF/TWF tree, or else have them incorporated into the base feat.