Fae and Cold Iron; Old/Middle English Speakers Wanted

[Shadowknight12]

Long story short: I got a book on Scottish tales, and there is an extract from The Secret Commonwealth that yields some light on the reason Fae are weak to cold iron. The problem being that I am not a native English speaker and the language use is extremely hard to discern for me.

I would heartily appreciate an explanation from someone more well-versed in the language.

I transcribe the passage in its entirety:

"The tramontanes to this day place bread, the Bible, or a piece of iron, to save their women from being thus stolen, and they commonly report that all uncouth, unknown weights are terrified by nothing earthly so much as cold iron. They deliver the reason to be that hell lying betwixt the chill tempests and the firebrands of scalding metals, and iron of the north (hence the loadstone causes a tendency to that point), by an antipathy thereto, these odious, far-scenting creatures shrug and fright at all that comes thence relating to such abhorred a place, whence their torment is either begun, or is feared to come hereafter."

The "stolen women" refer to the Fae stealing away breast-feeding women to nurse their own fae children, if anybody's curious.

Now, the question is: what the heck does that paragraph mean?

[CombatOwl]

Long story short: I got a book on Scottish tales, and there is an extract from The Secret Commonwealth that yields some light on the reason Fae are weak to cold iron. The problem being that I am not a native English speaker and the language use is extremely hard to discern for me.

I would heartily appreciate an explanation from someone more well-versed in the language.

I transcribe the passage in its entirety:

"The tramontanes to this day place bread, the Bible, or a piece of iron, to save their women from being thus stolen, and they commonly report that all uncouth, unknown weights are terrified by nothing earthly so much as cold iron. They deliver the reason to be that hell lying betwixt the chill tempests and the firebrands of scalding metals, and iron of the north (hence the loadstone causes a tendency to that point), by an antipathy thereto, these odious, far-scenting creatures shrug and fright at all that comes thence relating to such abhorred a place, whence their torment is either begun, or is feared to come hereafter."

The "stolen women" refer to the Fae stealing away breast-feeding women to nurse their own fae children, if anybody's curious.

Now, the question is: what the heck does that paragraph mean?

That unnatural things are afraid of cold iron because it represents the place they came from (Hell) or the place they're going to (Hell).

[Shadowknight12]

That unnatural things are afraid of cold iron because it represents the place they came from (Hell) or the place they're going to (Hell).

Oh! I guess that makes sense. Demons have DR/Good or Cold Iron as well, which, given the Blood War, seems to be in keeping with that take.

[Rhynn]

"The tramontanes to this day place bread, the Bible, or a piece of iron, to save their women from being thus stolen, and they commonly report that all uncouth, unknown weights are terrified by nothing earthly so much as cold iron. They deliver the reason to be that hell lying betwixt the chill tempests and the firebrands of scalding metals, and iron of the north (hence the loadstone causes a tendency to that point), by an antipathy thereto, these odious, far-scenting creatures shrug and fright at all that comes thence relating to such abhorred a place, whence their torment is either begun, or is feared to come hereafter."

Rough translation of perceived intent:
"The people who live beyond the mountains* still place bread, the Bible, or a piece of iron to save their women from being stolen (in the way described earlier). They say that all "weights"** are terrified of cold iron*** more than anything. They say this is because Hell has chill tempests (which are of the north, and iron relates to the north) and burning metal brands made of iron. Because of that, iron reminds these spirits of Hell, where they came from (and were tormented in) or where they will go later (a fate that they fear)."

* Possibly the Alps, "beyond" as viewed from Italy.
** That one's obscure to me, but by context, I assume it means "spirits", "faeries".
*** "Cold iron" is just a poetic expression: iron is cold (unless it's been heated).

Edit: Dang yoooouuu CombatOwl!

Edit: Nitpick, but that's not even Middle English (Le Morte d'Arthur, Chaucer, etc.), much less Old English (basically Saxon English). It's just somewhat archaic English (I'd guess 17th-18th century, maybe early 19th?).

[Shadowknight12]

Rough translation of perceived intent:
"The people who live beyond the mountains* still place bread, the Bible, or a piece of iron to save their women from being stolen (in the way described earlier). They say that all "weights"** are terrified of cold iron*** more than anything. They say this is because Hell has chill tempests (which are of the north, and iron relates to the north) and burning metal brands made of iron. Because of that, iron reminds these spirits of Hell, where they came from (and were tormented in) or where they will go later (a fate that they fear)."

* Possibly the Alps, "beyond" as viewed from Italy.
** That one's obscure to me, but by context, I assume it means "spirits", "faeries".
*** "Cold iron" is just a poetic expression: iron is cold (unless it's been heated).

Edit: Dang yoooouuu CombatOwl!

Ahhh, that makes so much more sense. If I may venture a possible translation for weights, it may instead be wights, a word that used to mean any living creature or sentient being.

Thanks for the clarification, though! This is highly informative. It's quite interesting to imagine cold iron as the living embodiment of hell itself. So many interesting ramifications for fantasy universes!

[CombatOwl]

** That one's obscure to me, but by context, I assume it means "spirits", "faeries".

I'm assuming that's actually supposed to be one of those oh-so-charming creative misspellings of wiht or wight, which basically just means creature.

[Rhynn]

A bit of an aside, but one idea for why iron is seen as the bane of Faeries is that it was thought to represent humanity's advancement: a solid, accessible piece of technology that symbolized humanity's triumph over nature and the old things, both of which Faeries were seen to represent. Also, it's interesting to note that post-Christianity, up until a Romantic re-imagining of Faeries, they were pretty much interchangeable with ghosts, spirits, and demons.

The idea of a wholly hostile, somewhat infernal spiritworld has interesting implications for gaming.

[BWR]

Definitely not OE, and not like any ME I'm familiar with. That stuff is for all intents and purposes modern English. A few unusual words but that's it.

Loosely translated:
"The mountain dwellers [strangers, people from the other side of the mountain] to this day place bread, the Bible or iron to prevent their women from being stolen [in the manner previously described], and they explain that all faeries [mysterious men or man-shaped beings] fear iron more than any other earthly thing. They [the mountain dwellers] say this is because iron (for reasons of its origin) reminds them of Hell and the punishments they either come from or are destined to go to."


weights - wights, meaning men (not level draining undead)

Iron of the north - Jeremiah 15.12 Shall iron be allied with the iron from the north, and the bronze?

"Shall iron be allied, etc. . .Shall the iron, that is, the strength of Juda, stand against the stronger iron of the north, that is, of Babylon: or enter into an alliance upon equal footing with it? No certainly: but it must be broken by it."

I'm a bit puzzled by this reference, but here's my (probably wrong) guess.
Iron is stronger than bronze. Things from the north are nearly always bad in the Bible, so iron, which came from the north in this passage, is aligned with evil, and evil belongs to Hell, and Hell is where all non-Christians go. Since faeries are not Christian, they will go to Hell or come from Hell. But if iron is aligned with evil, why would good Christians use it?

[TuggyNE]

Long story short: I got a book on Scottish tales, and there is an extract from The Secret Commonwealth that yields some light on the reason Fae are weak to cold iron. The problem being that I am not a native English speaker and the language use is extremely hard to discern for me.

I would heartily appreciate an explanation from someone more well-versed in the language.

I transcribe the passage in its entirety:

"The tramontanes to this day place bread, the Bible, or a piece of iron, to save their women from being thus stolen, and they commonly report that all uncouth, unknown weights are terrified by nothing earthly so much as cold iron. They deliver the reason to be that hell lying betwixt the chill tempests and the firebrands of scalding metals, and iron of the north (hence the loadstone causes a tendency to that point), by an antipathy thereto, these odious, far-scenting creatures shrug and fright at all that comes thence relating to such abhorred a place, whence their torment is either begun, or is feared to come hereafter."

Is that where that came from!

The interesting part is the allusion to loadstone, or lodestone. The easiest way to make artificial magnets is to heat iron so it is "scalding" and run electricity through it (as if from a storm or tempest), producing, as one might say, "iron of the north", because it points to the north. So while the superstition might indeed be that mere "cold" iron is sufficient, it seems more likely that actual magnetic materials are necessary for the full effect.

The reason why this affects them is presumably as previously stated, that it has some mystical relation to hell.

(This theory adapted from R. H. Junior's fiction (http://www.rhjunior.com/TotQ/npc0000.html#Comic=475), presumably loosely based on the same passage.)

[NowhereMan583]

*** "Cold iron" is just a poetic expression: iron is cold (unless it's been heated).

It may be shorthand for "cold-forged iron" -- at least that's how I've always interpreted it.

[Eric Tolle]

It may be shorthand for "cold-forged iron" -- at least that's how I've always interpreted it.

No, it's actually just a poetic expression for iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_in_folklore#Cold_iron).

[Rhynn]

No, it's actually just a poetic expression for iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_in_folklore#Cold_iron).

Yes. The idea that "cold iron" is some kind of special material is all D&D 3E. It's not even the case in AD&D 2E.

Also, by any sensible interpretation in a game, steel should do the job just as well (being that two types of "iron" are going to be about as similar to each other as to a random type of "steel," generally).

[Shadowknight12]

A bit of an aside, but one idea for why iron is seen as the bane of Faeries is that it was thought to represent humanity's advancement: a solid, accessible piece of technology that symbolized humanity's triumph over nature and the old things, both of which Faeries were seen to represent. Also, it's interesting to note that post-Christianity, up until a Romantic re-imagining of Faeries, they were pretty much interchangeable with ghosts, spirits, and demons.

The idea of a wholly hostile, somewhat infernal spiritworld has interesting implications for gaming.

Yeah, I remember reading that theory in one of the Changeling: The Lost splatbooks.

I think the interesting premise is precisely the opposite, that man's iconic metal and greatest ally against the supernatural is a solidified incarnation of hell, brandished by barbarians and paladins alike.


Definitely not OE, and not like any ME I'm familiar with. That stuff is for all intents and purposes modern English. A few unusual words but that's it.

Loosely translated:
"The mountain dwellers [strangers, people from the other side of the mountain] to this day place bread, the Bible or iron to prevent their women from being stolen [in the manner previously described], and they explain that all faeries [mysterious men or man-shaped beings] fear iron more than any other earthly thing. They [the mountain dwellers] say this is because iron (for reasons of its origin) reminds them of Hell and the punishments they either come from or are destined to go to."


weights - wights, meaning men (not level draining undead)

Iron of the north - Jeremiah 15.12 Shall iron be allied with the iron from the north, and the bronze?

"Shall iron be allied, etc. . .Shall the iron, that is, the strength of Juda, stand against the stronger iron of the north, that is, of Babylon: or enter into an alliance upon equal footing with it? No certainly: but it must be broken by it."

I'm a bit puzzled by this reference, but here's my (probably wrong) guess.
Iron is stronger than bronze. Things from the north are nearly always bad in the Bible, so iron, which came from the north in this passage, is aligned with evil, and evil belongs to Hell, and Hell is where all non-Christians go. Since faeries are not Christian, they will go to Hell or come from Hell. But if iron is aligned with evil, why would good Christians use it?

Thanks for the extra context! There's definitely a lot of religious lore here I am completely ignorant of, so it's good to see where these traditions come from so that they can be adapted and modified for play use.

As for the question regarding iron... that's an excellent thing, to me. Completely delicious. Instead of having the humans being 100% Good and Righteous, having them use an evil-aligned metal to ward off neutral creatures (given that they are clearly not aligned with hell) is a rich morass of grayness.


Is that where that came from!

The interesting part is the allusion to loadstone, or lodestone. The easiest way to make artificial magnets is to heat iron so it is "scalding" and run electricity through it (as if from a storm or tempest), producing, as one might say, "iron of the north", because it points to the north. So while the superstition might indeed be that mere "cold" iron is sufficient, it seems more likely that actual magnetic materials are necessary for the full effect.

The reason why this affects them is presumably as previously stated, that it has some mystical relation to hell.

(This theory adapted from R. H. Junior's fiction (http://www.rhjunior.com/TotQ/npc0000.html#Comic=475), presumably loosely based on the same passage.)

Load/lodestone is made of magnetite, which is a compound of ferric/ferrous oxides. Given that the first dry compass was invented around 1300 and that The Secret Commonwealth dates to the 1600s (hence why I thought this was Old/Middle English), it's possible it was common knowledge for learned men that lodestone and iron were made of the same material (hence the connection between them in the text).

[Frozen_Feet]

Whenever you see "cold iron" somewhere, you can mentally replace it with "cold steel", which means "the steel that's going to pierce your gut real soon". :smallwink:

[cucchulainnn]

up until recently (with in the last last few generations) fences around cemeteries where traditionally made of iron. this was done to keep spirits in. my grandmother who was born in the late 1800's early 1900's basically believed that the iron fence created a kind of magic force field that spirits could not cross. and for some reason that i don't understand steel didn't count. it had to be iron.

how far that this superstition goes back i don't know but the Victorians had a lot of interesting ones worth mining for game flavoring.

thoe it probably dose back pretty far. for instance the The Tuatha Dé Danann seemed to susceptible to iron. if memory servers me well, i seem to remember an incident during or shortly before the Milesian invasion where a human and faye where talking one of the conversations was comparing weapons. the human had a crude iron spear the faye had a magnificent bronze one of unspeakable craftsmanship. during this meeting iron was shown to be one of their weaknesses.

again i'm going from memory here and may or may not be all that right.

[lytokk]

I honestly have nothing to add to this discussion other than its given me a really good idea on a method of having my players gain the cold iron weapons they're going to need to beat the devils they're going to end up facing, and I wanted to thank this discussion for it. Granted, I'm definitely going to have to do a lot more reading into lodestones, iron of the north and cold iron, but its given me a great starting point so thanks.

The only idea I had come up with was that some fey were hoarding it in order to keep it from the hands of those who would use it against them, but actually making the characters make cold iron weapons works out much, much nicer.

[Brother Oni]

Yes. The idea that "cold iron" is some kind of special material is all D&D 3E. It's not even the case in AD&D 2E.

I typically understood 'cold iron' to be a poetic name for wrought iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrought_iron), that is fairly impure iron with a low carbon content (less than 0.25%).

That fact that most early iron production resulted in wrought iron probably lends credence to the whole 'humanity advancement' aspect of why the fae fear it.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Load/lodestone is made of magnetite, which is a compound of ferric/ferrous oxides. Given that the first dry compass was invented around 1300 and that The Secret Commonwealth dates to the 1600s (hence why I thought this was Old/Middle English), it's possible it was common knowledge for learned men that lodestone and iron were made of the same material (hence the connection between them in the text).

Random English thing: old English is Germanic with no romantic influence, almost unreadable. Wyrd bid full araed. Lost him inhaga are gebided metudes miltse mondcearig. (I know I butchered it but that's off memory on my phone so pity me). Middle English Is Chaucer, 1100s-1300s, maaaaybe up to the 15thC, as a rough guideline off the top of my head. By 1600s you are solidly modern English, only with a little spelling variance and a little difference in grammar from English today.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by cucchulainnn
up until recently (with in the last last few generations) fences around cemeteries where traditionally made of iron. this was done to keep spirits in.

Any sort of citation or reference on this at all? I've never heard of this, sounds like an interesting bit of country lore.


Originally Posted by Gwyn
By 1600s you are solidly modern English....

I have a hard time accepting late Elizabethan English as "solidly modern."

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Any sort of citation or reference on this at all? I've never heard of this, sounds like an interesting bit of country lore.



I have a hard time accepting late Elizabethan English as "solidly modern."
*shrug*, it is what it is. We still read Shakespeare without side by side translation. Middle English? Only word by word figuring out what it says. Old English? Not a chance without a dictionary. The three defining texts for each stage of the language are Beowulf for OE, Chaucer for ME and Shakespeare for ModE

[Renegade Paladin]

I really, seriously doubt the reference to lodestone in the passage is accidental.