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View Full Version : [pathfinder] Attempting a Skeleton commander, Balance questions



Naoki00_
2014-01-08, 01:17 PM
Hello good people, I've had this idea floating around in my head for a little while and to be honest I'm not sure how to really make it balanced. I'm hoping what I have is a step in the right direction but at it stands I'm pretty sure it might be too strong, and some of it may even be a tad unneeded lol. So instead of just loosing it into a campaign and regretting it one way or another I thought I'd ask the forums on there ideas and how I might be able to improve on it.

This'll be my first time posting a class here so I hope things aren't confusing :smallfrown:

Reaper Initiate

Reaper Initiates are part combatant, part necromancer, and part unit commander. They are some of the direct soldiers of death, and though many of them have never met him or her in person they all feel deaths eternal presence over the forces they deal in. Unlike most necromancers Reaper initiates aren’t necessarily evil, since death takes no sides and initiates only wield a portion of power granted to them instead of forcibly drawing it out, and they scorn purely magical combat, believing it to be a waste of the power given to them to be so cowardly as to avoid glorious and direct combat, instead using raised units to command and fight among them.

HD: d8
Alignment: any neutral
Special: Must have gone through a ritual given by the leaders of the Initiates that brands you with the reapers mark, letting the power to command into your body, though normally there are minimal side effect, but 20% of Initiates are scarred more than others, and suffer a -2 cha.

Class Skills: Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Perception, Sence motive, Stealth, Survival, Use magic device.
Skill-points per level: 4 + Int modifier.


{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2| Summon Skeletons, Reapers Lore

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3| Dread Skin +1, Dead Sight

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3| Iron Skeletons, Undead Tactics (Guard, Assault)

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4| Sneak attack 1d6

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4| Dead Renewal

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5| Dread Skin +2

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5| Steel Skeletons, Share Saves

8th|
+6/1|
+6|
+2|
+6| Sneak Attack 2d6

9th|
+6/1|
+6|
+3|
+6| Armed Skeletons, Spawn Grave Champion

10th|
+7/2|
+7|
+3|
+7| Dread Skin +3, Undead Tactics (Wall, Rush)

11th|
+8/3|
+7|
+3|
+7| Mithral Skeletons, Mass Summoning

12th|
+9/4|
+8|
+4|
+8| Sneak Attack 3d6

13th|
+9/4|
+8|
+4|
+8| We are Legion

14th|
+10/5|
+9|
+4|
+9| Dread Skin +4

15th|
+11/6/1|
+9|
+5|
+9| Adamantine Skeletons

16th|
+12/7/2|
+10|
+5|
+10| Sneak attack 4d6

17th|
+12/7/2|
+10|
+5|
+10| Undead Tactic (phalanx, overbear)

18th|
+13/8/3|
+11|
+6|
+11| Dread Skin +5

19th|
+14/9/4|
+11|
+6|
+11| Calcify

20th|
+15/10/5|
+12|
+6|
+12| For We are many, Sneak attack 5d6 [/table]


Weapons and Armor Pro: Reaper Initiates are proficient in light armor and with shields (but not tower shields), Simple Weapons, the Sickle, Scythe, Long sword, light maces, heavy maces, and one martial ranged weapon of choice.

Summon Skeletons(su): Beginning at 1st level, each day the Reaver Initiate begins with a pool of energy gathered overnight from the natural forces of death and entropy, they may use this energy to summon forth a number of skeletons equal to their Wisdom modifier per day, but can command no more than 3 at once. Summoning a Skeleton is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Skeletons move all at once and mindlessly attack any hostile force unless given a tactic to follow, they have their own actions but cannot manipulate things like wands or potions, but you take no actions for controlling them
Skeletons summoned by you have your Wisdom modifier in HD. At level 8 this improves to your Wisdom + Intelligence modifiers, and at 14th level it improves further to you Wisdom + Intelligence + your Charisma modifiers. Should one of their skeletons die, the Initiate suffers from the backlash, taking 1 point of damage per HD it had.

Reaper's Lore(ex): The lord of death knows many things, and will share small bits of knowledge involving death. At 1st level as a full round action you can touch a body that’s been dead for no more than 1 year, and instantly learn how, where, and when it died. This doesn’t give specific information, such as who killed them or the weather. An example would be if an Elf was murders with a poisoned silver dagger on the balcony of the Westhaven Inn, You would learn that the body was murdered by a dagger on the balcony of the inn, but none of the other details. In addition You may sneak attack with even non-light weapons so long as you have no levels in another class.


Dread Skin(su): At levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18 you gain a stacking bonus to Natural Armor as your skin develops bone like plating from your exposure to the forces of death.


Dead Sight(Su): At 2nd level you gain the ability to focus your mind into one of your skeletons. As a full round action you may gain more acute control of a skeleton under your control and treat it as you for all mental purposes, while doing this ONLY this skeleton may move, not your others or your body. It can venture up to 100ft away in this manner.


Iron Skeletons(ex): At 3rd level any skeletons you create have their bones infused with Iron ore, granting +2 natural armor, and +2 strength.


Undead Tactics(ex): These are commands are methods of control other than standard measures, and allows the Initiate to decide how to utilize their skeletons in a given battle. You may give a tactic to Skeletons individually and changing them is a swift action.

Guard: When given this command a skeleton will either remain at a point you designate within 60ft, or will follow a person you designate for up to 1 minute as long as they remain within 500ft of you. Should any hostile force or named individual set by you venture within sight or threatening distance and a skeleton in guard tactic is aware of it, it will defend the person or point until death or otherwise.

Assault: When you give this command you designate a creature or Object within 60ft of you and any skeletons designated for it will move and attack the creature until it or they die. They will use any available method to avoid damage while assaulting (such as not standing in the path of attacks they could avoid, or needlessly provoking attacks of opportunity).

Rush: The Skeletons you designate for this tactic will always begin battle by charging at the first foe you designate, gaining and addition +2 to the attack and damage of the charge for each extra skeleton involved, they proceed to follow the Assault Tactic after this point until you choose another target, at which point if the Rush tactic is still active they will charge it.

Wall: Any Skeleton given this tactic will either move in front of a person you designate or remain in one place, taking the total defense action or move to intercept any ranged attack that passes within their reach. Anyone behind a Skeleton using wall tactics gains +2 AC against ranged attacks for each skeleton they could threaten.

Phalanx: Similar to the Wall tactic, the phalanx orders all three skeletons to surround a target on all sides, taking total defense but also acting as a method of offence for the one being protected. A person inside the Phalanx cannot be attacked with melee weapons unless the attacker has a longer natural reach, and the person inside gains a +6 AC bonus against ranged attacks. In addition the protected person may issue attack commands to the skeletons using their own attack actions, such as moving while protected, and then commanding one skeleton to attack someone in its threaten range.

Overbear: When given this tactic your skeletons band together so as to bowl over the target. This is Similar to the rush tactic in that they immediately charge at the first target you designate, however instead of a normal attack all three attempt a Bullrush maneuver on the target with a +4 on the roll in addition to the normal bonuses for multiple creatures. If they succeed in pushing the creature at least 10ft they make a normal attack on it followed by a trip attempt, if the trip succeeds they make make an attack of opportunity as usual.


Dead Renewal(su): Beginning at 5th level you can undo the damage to your skeletons by expending the energy used to create them. As a standard action you may expend a use of your Summon Skeletons ability to heal a skeleton within 60ft of you by ½ its maximum Hit points.


Steel Skeletons(ex): At 7th level skeletons you create are infused with pure steel, and thus your Iron Skeleton bonuses improve to 2 hit points per Hit Die, +4 natural armor, +2 Strength, +2 on Attack rolls, and deals +2 damage with its attacks.


Share Saves(ex): All your skeletons use your saving throws, and you similarly become highly resistant to mental effects from your link to them, gaining a +4 save against mind effecting abilities or spells.


Armed Skeletons(su): When you create a skeleton, it comes summoned with one of the following sets of equipment:

Greatclub and Splint Mail

Trident, Net, and Chain Shirt

Flail, Half-Plate Armor, and Heavy Shield

Rapier, Light Shield, and Breastplate

The items immediately shatter when the skeleton is destroyed or if the skeleton is not touching them.


Spawn Grave Champion(ex): You may designate one of your Skeletons as a Grave champion once per day which while stronger also causes more backlash if slain, resulting in you losing 2 health per HD it had, also its equipment takes on a more defined nature in relating to you or your patron, and it gains one of the following traits-

Noxious- gains a 10ft. radius of stench like a Ghast, the save is 10 + champions HD + your Wisdom.

Empowered- gains +6 profane bonus to Strength.

Poisonous- when the champion is hit in combat, it releases a 5ft. radius cloud of inhaled poison (1d4 Str primary, 1d4 Str secondary). If a character successfully saves against the poison, they are immune to it for 24 hours. The save is 10 + chamions HD + your Wisdom

Gravechilled: the champion deals an extra 1d6 cold damage and 1 temporary strength damage with its attacks



Mithral Skeletons(ex): at 11th level skeletons you create now are infused with mithral ore and your steel skeleton bonuses improve to 4 hit points per Hit Die, +4 natural armor, +2 Strength, +6 dexterity, +10ft speed, gains +2 on attack rolls, and deals +2 damage with its attacks.


Mass Summoning(su): At 11th level you may now summon all 3 skeletons at once with a single standard action, and may do this for free once per day.


We are Legion(ex): At 13th level and from now on, you cannot be flatfooted unless you and all your skeletons are flatfooted, you gain the all around vision trait, and you always see and hear from any skeleton you have as if it was you.


Adamantine Skeletons (ex): At 15th level Skeletons you create are coated in glimmering adamantine, making your mithral skeleton bonuses improve to 6 hit points per Hit Die, their natural armor increases to +8, they gain DR 10/-, +2 Strength, +6 Dexterity, +10ft speed, +3 to hit, and deals +3 damage with its attacks which are also made of adamantine and give all benefits of this property.


Calcify(sp): At 19th level you may touch an enemy and remake their skin into immovable bone using your necromantic energy. 3/day you or one of your skeletons may make a touch attack on an opponent, if it succeeds that creature is subject to the spell Flesh to Stone if it has any bones and they fail a fortitude save (Dc 10 + 1/2 Initiate level +Wisdom mod) , but creatures without bone structures are immune to this ability. The creature is unaffected by any attempts to return it to normal other than a wish, miracle, or similarly powerful spell or ability.


For we are Many(ex): You join the ranks of your unliving allies, You become an Undead and gain all the benefits of your skeletons Adamantine SKeleton trait (with its natural armor replacing that of dread skin) and permanently gain on of your champions traits.

(fixed a few typos and cleared up stacking of Iron/steel/mithral/adamantine skeletons)

bookguy
2014-01-08, 06:03 PM
I'm no expert on these things, but I have a few thoughts:

-Summon Skeletons seems too powerful at 1st level. Imagine a Reaper Initiate starting with 18 Wisdom. He can summon a 4 HD skeleton. According to the table for skeletons, a 4 HD skeleton is CR 2. This means that it is an even match for a challenging encounter and should single-handedly beat any average encounter the party faces. Add in the fact that the reaper initiate can summon 4 such skeletons per day and he can generally win any encounter the party ever faces at level one. If you gave a duration to the summoning that might help. Also, summoning typically has a longer casting time.

-Summon Skeletons says over knight but I think you mean overnight.

-Reapers Lore (should be Reaper's Lore) is listed as a first level ability in the table but a 2nd level ability in its description. Either way it's fine.

-You need to specify whether or not the benefits from Iron Skeletons, Steel Skeletons, etc. stack.

-I don't really understand why this class has sneak attack. I see the appeal of summoning a skeleton behind enemy lines to flank for you but I don't get how this really fits into the flavor of the class.

-Let's look at Summon Skeletons at level 8. At this point a Reaper Initiate can likely summon a 7 HD skeleton with Iron Skeletons, Undead Tactics, Steel Skeletons, and Share Saves 7 times a day. This actually seems rather fair to me, and this is probably the only other point where I'd worry. So I'd say that Summen Skeletons is only too powerful at level one and maybe level two.

-Calcify needs a save DC. I'd recommend 10+1/2 character level+Charisma modifier.

Overall, this class looks really cool and I look forward to seeing the polished version.

Naoki00_
2014-01-08, 06:39 PM
I'm no expert on these things, but I have a few thoughts:

-Summon Skeletons seems too powerful at 1st level. Imagine a Reaper Initiate starting with 18 Wisdom. He can summon a 4 HD skeleton. According to the table for skeletons, a 4 HD skeleton is CR 2. This means that it is an even match for a challenging encounter and should single-handedly beat any average encounter the party faces. Add in the fact that the reaper initiate can summon 4 such skeletons per day and he can generally win any encounter the party ever faces at level one. If you gave a duration to the summoning that might help. Also, summoning typically has a longer casting time.

-Summon Skeletons says over knight but I think you mean overnight.

-Reapers Lore (should be Reaper's Lore) is listed as a first level ability in the table but a 2nd level ability in its description. Either way it's fine.

-You need to specify whether or not the benefits from Iron Skeletons, Steel Skeletons, etc. stack.

-I don't really understand why this class has sneak attack. I see the appeal of summoning a skeleton behind enemy lines to flank for you but I don't get how this really fits into the flavor of the class.

-Let's look at Summon Skeletons at level 8. At this point a Reaper Initiate can likely summon a 7 HD skeleton with Iron Skeletons, Undead Tactics, Steel Skeletons, and Share Saves 7 times a day. This actually seems rather fair to me, and this is probably the only other point where I'd worry. So I'd say that Summen Skeletons is only too powerful at level one and maybe level two.

-Calcify needs a save DC. I'd recommend 10+1/2 character level+Charisma modifier.

Overall, this class looks really cool and I look forward to seeing the polished version.

Thanks for the input and I do see I made a couple spelling mistakes there lol, Alright then on to my own thoughts in reply!

I agree that in many cases Summon Skeletons is too strong at early level, but I'm not entirely sure how to tone the power at early level but retain the power of higher levels, so suggestions on that front would be very welcome. As for the duration I had the idea that you wouldn't actually summon more then your 3, and they would exist until destroyed to use as guard at night, scouts, alarms, what have you. I was kinda in the mindset of animal companions or a summoners Eidolon at the time lol.

My bad on misplacing Reaper's lore there.

I suppose your right in the stacking bit, I thought I'd worded it enough that it was implied that the better value supersedes the last one but I'll clear that up.

I gave them sneak attack mostly for the idea that other then their skeletons the Reaper himself doesn't really have anything, and so to make it more appealing to actually be in the thick of battle Sneak attack seemed appealing with how you could flank with your skeletons, the flavor of it being that you deal in death, thus know better how to stab a guy in simple terms lol, I suppose I could reflavor it and call it something else, maybe a damage bonus against targets hit by a skeleton?

Darn i thought I put a DC for it, ah well hindsight seems to be my strong suit with typos lol

Naoki00_
2014-01-10, 03:11 PM
bumpers for hope!

bookguy
2014-01-11, 07:07 PM
I agree that in many cases Summon Skeletons is too strong at early level, but I'm not entirely sure how to tone the power at early level but retain the power of higher levels, so suggestions on that front would be very welcome. As for the duration I had the idea that you wouldn't actually summon more then your 3, and they would exist until destroyed to use as guard at night, scouts, alarms, what have you. I was kinda in the mindset of animal companions or a summoners Eidolon at the time lol.


If the idea is that you can't summon more than your three, then maybe you should just make it so. But with no duration the skeletons are still even more powerful than before. How about this:

Summon Skeletons(su): Beginning at 1st level, the Reaver Initiate begins each day with a pool of energy gathered overnight from the natural forces of death and entropy. They may use this energy to summon forth a number of skeletons equal to their Wisdom modifier per day, but can command no more than 2 HD of skeletons per Reaper Initiate level at once. Summoning a Skeleton is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Skeletons move all at once and mindlessly attack any hostile force unless given a tactic to follow. They have their own actions but cannot manipulate things like wands or potions. Skeletons summoned by you have up to your Wisdom modifier in HD. At level 8 this improves to your Wisdom + Intelligence modifiers, and at 14th level it improves further to you Wisdom + Intelligence + your Charisma modifiers. Should one of his or her skeletons die, the Initiate suffers from the backlash, taking 1 point of damage per HD of the skeleton. When the pool of energy finishes recharging all skeletons from the previous day de-materialize, which does not result in any damage to the Reaper Initiate.

If this isn't powerful enough you could raise it to 3 HD.

Also, I would probably give some tactics to the Reaper Initiate at level one.

Naoki00_
2014-01-11, 07:42 PM
If the idea is that you can't summon more than your three, then maybe you should just make it so. But with no duration the skeletons are still even more powerful than before. How about this:

Summon Skeletons(su): Beginning at 1st level, the Reaver Initiate begins each day with a pool of energy gathered overnight from the natural forces of death and entropy. They may use this energy to summon forth a number of skeletons equal to their Wisdom modifier per day, but can command no more than 2 HD of skeletons per Reaper Initiate level at once. Summoning a Skeleton is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Skeletons move all at once and mindlessly attack any hostile force unless given a tactic to follow. They have their own actions but cannot manipulate things like wands or potions. Skeletons summoned by you have up to your Wisdom modifier in HD. At level 8 this improves to your Wisdom + Intelligence modifiers, and at 14th level it improves further to you Wisdom + Intelligence + your Charisma modifiers. Should one of his or her skeletons die, the Initiate suffers from the backlash, taking 1 point of damage per HD of the skeleton. When the pool of energy finishes recharging all skeletons from the previous day de-materialize, which does not result in any damage to the Reaper Initiate.

If this isn't powerful enough you could raise it to 3 HD.

Also, I would probably give some tactics to the Reaper Initiate at level one.

hmmmm..this might work out well, I suppose I wanted to tie it into something more difficult to change then level, but that probably not a great idea in the end lol, though I did add the line that you couldn't command more than 3 at a time

bookguy
2014-01-12, 12:23 AM
The thing is, at first level under your current rules it's pretty overpowered even if you only have one at a time. Although depending how you interpret "anything hostile," maybe your skeletons will backfire and attack fellow party members if they're hostile to someone?

Naoki00_
2014-01-12, 01:00 AM
The thing is, at first level under your current rules it's pretty overpowered even if you only have one at a time. Although depending how you interpret "anything hostile," maybe your skeletons will backfire and attack fellow party members if they're hostile to someone?

I think that might be a little bad if that happened XD, hmmm, what about a clause like "the skeletons have your Int mod in HD, or 1HD per level, Whichever is lower."

Later it would become Int+Wis or 2HD per level whichever is lower, and then Int+wis+cha or 2HD per level whichever for lower.

bookguy
2014-01-12, 02:21 AM
I think that might be a little bad if that happened XD, hmmm, what about a clause like "the skeletons have your Int mod in HD, or 1HD per level, Whichever is lower."

Later it would become Int+Wis or 2HD per level whichever is lower, and then Int+wis+cha or 2HD per level whichever for lower.

The real gist of my idea was that you could have a lot of really weak skeletons or a few strong ones as you needed to overcome the daily challenges, but this works to balance the class as well.

Naoki00_
2014-01-12, 11:00 AM
The real gist of my idea was that you could have a lot of really weak skeletons or a few strong ones as you needed to overcome the daily challenges, but this works to balance the class as well.

I kinda admit that I want to avoid the normal "bunch of weak guys or one huge guy" manner that necromancy tends to fall into since I wanted the skeletons to almost have a 'personal' feel. You being the leader of the unit and all that lol. If the more but weaker is just 'better' then the middle ground I suppose I could adjust it to be like the leadership feat

Naoki00_
2014-01-12, 11:17 AM
instead of sneak attack maybe just a touch attack that deals negative energy?

Ah and while I don't know about having a bunch of skellys, but if it's more fun to have numbers it could go with you having a 'pool' of HD equal to your level that you could distribute amongst however many you'd want as a take on your suggestion

bookguy
2014-01-13, 03:23 PM
Ah and while I don't know about having a bunch of skellys, but if it's more fun to have numbers it could go with you having a 'pool' of HD equal to your level that you could distribute amongst however many you'd want as a take on your suggestion

That was my idea, yes.


I kinda admit that I want to avoid the normal "bunch of weak guys or one huge guy" manner that necromancy tends to fall into since I wanted the skeletons to almost have a 'personal' feel. You being the leader of the unit and all that lol. If the more but weaker is just 'better' then the middle ground I suppose I could adjust it to be like the leadership feat

If you're looking for a personal feel for the skeletons, then maybe each of the three should have different strengths chosen by the player.