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qwertyu63
2014-01-18, 01:21 PM
Everything is as the the Expert, except with the following changes.

Increase the hit dice to d8.

Instead of picking 10 class skills, the expert has all skills as class skills.

In addition to the normal proficiencies, the expert is proficient in a single martial weapon of their choice and shields.

At first level, the expert gains the following class features:

Surge:
Experts can do a lot with their skills. To help them, they have a number of surges per day equal to their Expert level. These surges can be spent on various abilities. Unless noted otherwise, spending a surge does not require an action.

Push (Ex):
Experts can push themselves to greater skills. As part of a skill check, the expert can spend a surge to gain a competence bonus on that check equal to their expert level. They may use this only on skills where they have at least 1 rank.

The expert gains the remaining features at the stated levels:

Assist (Ex):
Starting at level 2, experts can help others as well as themselves. By spending a surge, the expert can grant a competence bonus on a skill check made by someone else equal to their expert level -1. You must be within 10 feet of the creature making the skill check. They may use this only on skills where they have at least 2 ranks.

Study (Ex):
Starting at level 2, experts can study to pick up new material. By studying for 1 hour, the expert may choose a skill. They gain 2 "phantom" ranks in the chosen skill (up to the maximium number of ranks they can have in that skill). These "phantom" ranks remain until the next time the expert uses this class feature.

Skill Power (Ex):
At level 3 and every odd numbered level after that, the expert gets a expert skill power from the list of expert skill powers. They must have at least 6 ranks in the skill tied to the chosen power.

Re-learn (Ex):
Starting at level 4, experts can relearn things they ought to have learned the first time. If the expert's Intelligence modifier permanently increases, this increase applies retroactively for skill points. Magic items or spells that provide temporary increases to Intelligence still do not provide skill points.

Steady (Ex):
Starting at level 6, experts can do things in a steady way. By spending a surge, the expert can take 10 on a skill check even if they are threatened or distracted. They may use this only on skills where they have at least 6 ranks.

Re-commit (Ex):
Starting at level 8, the expert branches out into new fields. Their skill points per level for the Expert class increases to 8 + Intelligence modifier. This increase applies retroactively.

Starting at level 20, their skill points per level further increase to 10 + Intelligence modifier. This increase also applies retroactively.

Retry (Ex):
Starting at level 10, the expert can retry things quickly. By spending a surge, the expert can reroll a skill check they just made. They may choose to use this ability after finding out if the first check passed. They may use this only on skills where they have at least 12 ranks.

Re-study (Ex):
Starting at level 12, the expert can study up on topics they don't know. By studying for 1 hour, the expert may choose a number of skills equal to their Intelligence modifier. They gain a number of "phantom" ranks in the chosen skill equal to half their expert level + 2 (up to the maximium number of ranks they can have in that skill). These "phantom" ranks remain until the next time the expert uses this class feature.

Rig (Ex):
Starting at level 14, the expert can rig an opposed skill check. By spending a surge, the expert can impose a competence penalty on a skill check made to oppose a check the expert is making. This penalty is equal to the experts expert level -1. They may use this only if they have at least 14 ranks in the opposing skill.

Re-think (Ex):
Starting at level 16, the expert can change their focus. By studying for 1 hour, 5 skill points the expert has spent (the expert chooses which 5) are refunded and can be re-spent.

Perfect (Ex):
Starting at level 18, the expert can hone their craft to perfection. By spending a surge, the expert can take 20 on a check where they would have taken 10, but without taking 20 times as long or triggering failure. They may use this only if they have at least 18 ranks in the skill in question.

Appraise: Keen Eye
You can use Appraise to oppose Forgery checks. When rolling to oppose Forgery, you may roll one Forgery check and one Appraise check and ignore the lower result.

Bluff: Talk Around
Once per day, while talking to someone, you can attempt a DC 30 Bluff check. Success allows you to trick the person in question into acting as you wish for 10 minutes (as per the spell Suggestion).

Disable Device: Trapfinding
You get trapfinding, as the rogue class feature.

Heal: Miracle Worker
Once per day, you can, as a full round action, attempt to cure a disease of your target. To do this, you must make a Heal check. The DC of this check is equal to the save DC of the disease plus 5. Success on this check means you successfully cure the disease (as per the spell Cure Disease).

Intimidate: Swift Demoralize
You can intimidating opponents in combat as a swift action (instead of a move action).

Listen: Ear Sight
Once per day, you can attempt to see with your ears. To do this, you must make a Listen check as a standard action. Once you do this, you have blindsight out to 100 feet for a number of rounds equal to your check result.

Open Lock: Pop Open
Thrice per day, you can attempt to open a lock with a DC of 30 or less as a swift action. You must make the Open Lock check normally.

Sense Motive: Seek Out
Once per day, while talking to someone, you can attempt a DC 30 Sense Motive check. Success allows you to read the surface thoughts of the person in question for 1 minute (as per the third round of the spell Detect Thoughts).

Sleight of Hand: Magician's Trick
Thrice per day, you can attempt to perform simple magical-looking tricks. To do this, you must make a Slight of Hand check as a standard action. Once you do this, you gain the effects of the spell Prestidigitation for a number of rounds equal to your check result (the created effects are non-magical).

Spellcraft: Spellwork
Once per day, you can, as a standard action, attempt to cast a spell without needing normal spellcasting abilities. You may choose any 0 or 1st level spell from the New Arcana Wizard spell list with a casting time of one standard action. While casting the spell, you must make a Spellcraft check. The DC of this check is equal to 20 plus 5 times the level of the spell. Success on this check means you successfully cast the spell with a caster level of 1.

Level 0: Acid Splash, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Dancing Lights, Light, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Resistance.
Level 1: Mage Armor, Alarm, Charm Person, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Enlarge Person, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Power Charge.
Spot: Micro-expressions
You can use Spot to oppose Bluff checks. When rolling to oppose Bluff, you may roll one Sense Motive check and one Spot check and ignore the lower result.

Survival: Cobble Together
You can make any non-magical, non-alchemical item that costs 5 gp or less using Survival. If you meet the DC that would be used to craft the item with the Craft skill, you craft the item in 5 minutes. The created item has half as many hit points as a normal item, and has no real value.

Tactics: Long Plan
By taking a -5 penalty on a Tactics check to make a plan, you can make the resulting plan last far longer. The bonus from that plan decreases once per minute instead of once every 3 rounds.

Use Computer: Tech Empathy
When using a computer, you can ignore the DC increase from being unfamiliar with the system you are using. In addition, any malfunctioning computer has a 50% chance to behave normally while you are using it. (this skill is for a modern game, don't ask)

Use Magic Device: Spot Magic
You can see the magic around magic items. By looking at any magic item, you can see the magic aura of that item (as per the spell Detect Magic)

Zaydos
2014-01-19, 01:55 AM
Neat :smallbiggrin:

One comment I'd switch the levels re-focus and re-commit are gained and possibly re-think and the improved re-commit. Partially this is because re-focus/re-think feels mechanically stronger than re-commit, and partially due to story roles/world building and personal taste (to me finding the "foremost expert of task X" feels appropriate at ~Lv 6-10, while finding the "master polymath who given a day can be the foremost expert at task X, Y, or Z" feels more in line with level 11+). So just noting it as a personal opinion and a possible thing to consider, because getting second opinions is often part of why people post things here.

qwertyu63
2014-01-19, 08:16 AM
Neat :smallbiggrin:

One comment I'd switch the levels re-focus and re-commit are gained and possibly re-think and the improved re-commit. Partially this is because re-focus/re-think feels mechanically stronger than re-commit, and partially due to story roles/world building and personal taste (to me finding the "foremost expert of task X" feels appropriate at ~Lv 6-10, while finding the "master polymath who given a day can be the foremost expert at task X, Y, or Z" feels more in line with level 11+). So just noting it as a personal opinion and a possible thing to consider, because getting second opinions is often part of why people post things here.

I'm a little lost in your post here. I think you might have made a mistake in the name of a class feature somewhere. This sounds like a good idea, but I don't quite understand it.

SowZ
2014-01-19, 08:44 AM
I'm a little lost in your post here. I think you might have made a mistake in the name of a class feature somewhere. This sounds like a good idea, but I don't quite understand it.

He is saying switch re-study and re-commit. You would be able to re-do skill points at level 12 and get 8+Int. SP at level 8.

qwertyu63
2014-01-19, 08:48 AM
She is saying switch re-study and re-commit. You would be able to re-do skill points at level 12 and get 8+Int. SP at level 8.

Ah. I thought re-study was meant somewhere, but I couldn't place where. Yeah, it's a good idea.

Ziegander
2014-01-19, 08:54 AM
Were you aiming for a PC-capable class here or just an upgrade? Because if the former, I still don't think it quite makes it. If you wanted a PC capable version I would offer d8 HD, slightly improved proficiencies, and some unrepentantly massive flat bonuses to skill checks in place of the Skill Focus feats.

137ben
2014-01-19, 09:17 AM
Well, I like skill monkeys, but this seems to be missing something.

Ultimately, I think it should be able to use skills for something that other classes can't, in order to make the PC-class cut. Right now it just gets a bunch of number boosts to skill ranks and rolls.

qwertyu63
2014-01-19, 09:27 AM
Were you aiming for a PC-capable class here or just an upgrade? Because if the former, I still don't think it quite makes it. If you wanted a PC capable version I would offer d8 HD, slightly improved proficiencies, and some unrepentantly massive flat bonuses to skill checks in place of the Skill Focus feats.

I am in fact aiming to pull it up to PC status so it isn't out of place in this list: Barbarian, Expert, Fighter, Monk and Rogue (the only classes allowed in a homebrew setting I am making).

So, boost the HD, improve it from simple weapons/light armor and add (to pull a random number out of the air) +10 bonuses instead of Skill Focus?


Well, I like skill monkeys, but this seems to be missing something.

Ultimately, I think it should be able to use skills for something that other classes can't, in order to make the PC-class cut. Right now it just gets a bunch of number boosts to skill ranks and rolls.

Huh... I have no ideas on that front.

Ziegander
2014-01-19, 01:57 PM
I am in fact aiming to pull it up to PC status so it isn't out of place in this list: Barbarian, Expert, Fighter, Monk and Rogue (the only classes allowed in a homebrew setting I am making).

So, boost the HD, improve it from simple weapons/light armor and add (to pull a random number out of the air) +10 bonuses instead of Skill Focus?

Just give it like, one martial weapon or something, and proficiency with shields, that should be good enough there. I think as long as the +10 bonuses could stack with each other, you'd be good. To hit DC 100 skill checks by level 20 you'd need 23 ranks, + 6 (to pluck a random number from the ether) ability modifier, and an additional + 60 to the skill just to have a 50% chance of making it. And there are even higher skill checks than that.

Maybe +5 to int-modifier number skills every other level? That gives a less impressive bonus but spread out to more skills. There are, after all, items to grant +10, +20, or +30 to skills if the Expert really decides he wants those hard to hit Epic skill checks.

qwertyu63
2014-01-19, 02:08 PM
Just give it like, one martial weapon or something, and proficiency with shields, that should be good enough there. I think as long as the +10 bonuses could stack with each other, you'd be good. To hit DC 100 skill checks by level 20 you'd need 23 ranks, + 6 (to pluck a random number from the ether) ability modifier, and an additional + 60 to the skill just to have a 50% chance of making it. And there are even higher skill checks than that.

Maybe +5 to int-modifier number skills every other level? That gives a less impressive bonus but spread out to more skills. There are, after all, items to grant +10, +20, or +30 to skills if the Expert really decides he wants those hard to hit Epic skill checks.

I'll go with the +10. Easier to write, easier to use. The rest sound good though.

Anachronity
2014-01-19, 02:19 PM
You will need to add more rules text to re-learn to avoid breaking it with temporary intelligence enhancements (unless those don't exist in your homebrew setting?).

qwertyu63
2014-01-19, 02:25 PM
You will need to add more rules text to re-learn to avoid breaking it with temporary intelligence enhancements (unless those don't exist in your homebrew setting?).

They do exist in setting, I just forgot to include the word "permanently [increases]" in my rules text. Good catch.

mucat
2014-01-19, 05:23 PM
In a low-to-no-magic campaign like you describe, this class seems quite viable.

The re-study and re-think features worry me for a couple of reasons. If the expert can become a (literal) overnight master of any skill in the game, including all the branches of Profession, Craft, and Knowledge, then she could easily eclipse other PCs at their own specialties.

I'm thinking of this more from a roleplay standpoint than an adventuring one. A big part of one PC's identity has revolved around them being a gourmet chef? Another is a renowned expert on some obscure branch of scholarship, and a third is a famous sculptor? Fine, but if they REALLY want these things done right, they'll just give their friend the Expert one day's notice, and she'll surpass their life's work without breaking a sweat.

In addition, this feature seems like it would make any two high-level experts interchangeable with one another. The biggest thing distinguishing one Expert build from another would be which skills they chose to specialize in (via skill ranks and Skill Focus feats.) If they can rearrange these things at will, then there's not much left to set them apart from each other.


Well, I like skill monkeys, but this seems to be missing something.

Ultimately, I think it should be able to use skills for something that other classes can't, in order to make the PC-class cut. Right now it just gets a bunch of number boosts to skill ranks and rolls.
Maybe something like the Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel? Give a free skill trick every level or two instead of the free Skill Focus feats, and maybe have Expert-only upgraded versions of the skill tricks?

Fortuna
2014-01-20, 05:16 PM
I agree with mucat regarding Re-Study. I would suggest that rather than respending all your skill points and reassigning your massive boosts, it allows you to pick some number (possibly one? Intelligence modifier? I haven't homebrewed in a while) of skills and temporarily (maybe until reassigned) gain half your maximum rank in them, to a maximum of your maximum rank. That way you get to pick up competency in a number of fields, but you're not interchangeable with other high-level Experts, and dedicated skill investment from another class can still outmatch your complete-lack-of-investment.

BeerMug Paladin
2014-01-20, 05:38 PM
Interesting. I'm not sure what to make of this, apart from that it removes the combat advantages of the rogue, instead focusing only on raw skill. Characters like this would use nothing but bluff and hide skills in combat, maybe intimidate and use magic device.

Given a heavily city-based campaign, it could work, but the character would be woefully unfit to do typical adventuring. The only thing that makes up for it would be being able to do things like easily trick artifacts with focusing on use magic device.

By 5th level, this could be done with UMD 8 (base skill points) + 3 (feat: skill focus) + 10 (skill boost) + 5 (push) + 2 (feat: magical aptitude)

This gives 28 as a base bonus to UMD allowing them to use wands without trouble, scrolls better than a caster can (9th caster level scrolls can't fail for this character, but it can fail for a caster of 5th level).

It's a little sillier if you take synergies into consideration, since decipher script and spellcraft synergies give a total of +4 to the check, ensuring that this character can use 13 caster level scrolls without difficulty (7th level spells!)

Granted, 5th level characters aren't usually running around with scrolls of Prismatic Spray, Summon Monster 7, Destruction and Ethereal Jaunt, but since this is the only way I'd want to engage in combat, I'd probably spend most of my character wealth trying to acquire as many high level scrolls as I can. Since it's a perfectly reliable strategy. Most of those things would completely decimate 5th level encounters.

And with the nifty ability at 6th level, they can take 10 with a surge that allows them to use epic-level scrolls without a chance of failing. Or if those aren't available, all the most powerful magic available with no chance of failure.

Granted, this doesn't make the class bad, this is just how I would probably play it, brokenly. I'd also max out stealth, spot/search, diplomacy and bluff in the same ways (though they obviously will take longer to build fully and I wouldn't spend surges to boost them). That +10 untyped bonus just looks wacky powerful to me.

Missing those resources, I'm not sure I'd be able to do much with this class but hide and make diplomacy and social checks to help the party.

Zaydos
2014-01-21, 04:00 PM
I'd also advice against the +10 to skills, as it mostly doesn't impact combat except in cases of dipping for Hide in Plain Sight + Darkstalker to get where you can snipe without chance of failure or as shown UMDing higher level scrolls.

A better idea might be to make them (at certain levels) gain the ability to perform certain normally epic skill uses at non-epic DCs, or giving them abilities to use skills in extra ways that others can't (specifically combat uses). That depends upon how much work you want to put into it, though.

Ziegander
2014-01-21, 10:01 PM
A better idea might be to make them (at certain levels) gain the ability to perform certain normally epic skill uses at non-epic DCs[...]

That isn't a bad idea if you can find a way to implement it elegantly.

qwertyu63
2014-02-19, 12:13 PM
Thread, arise from the dead and haunt the forums from which you spawned!

I made up a set of new powers based on skills, to give the expert unique things it can do. I also took and used the "phantom" ranks idea from Random_person (thank you for the idea).

Also, a feat that is only tangentially related to the class:

Expert Power:
Prereqs: 6 ranks in a skill tied to an expert skill power
Benefit: Choose an expert skill power tied to a skill in which you have at least 6 ranks. You gain that expert skill power.
Special: You no longer qualify for this feat if you cease to have 6 ranks in the skill tied to the chosen power.

Mighty_Chicken
2014-02-19, 09:01 PM
This is great! Exactly what I've been looking for to increment my alternate skill system. Would you mind if I stole your Expert Powers? I'd link to your thread for sure.

About the advice people had been giving, about allowing epic uses of skills at non-epic DCs: the solution I've come to myself is the following. A feat/class feature allows you to choose a skill you have at least 9 ranks in. All DCs for this skill are halved, but no DC can drop bellow 30 because of this ability.

This way, character with level 6+ could, paying a moderate price, have a moderate rate of success training a Vermin creature, swimming up a waterfall, detect magic auras...

Of course, I'm supposing you agree a 6th level character is somehow "epic" in the literary sense of the word. If you disagree, the prerequisite could be 13 ranks instead of 9.

qwertyu63
2014-02-19, 09:45 PM
This is great! Exactly what I've been looking for to increment my alternate skill system. Would you mind if I stole your Expert Powers? I'd link to your thread for sure.

Go right ahead.

Stoneback
2014-02-20, 10:24 PM
Experts are already almost on-par with a rogue (and for some out of combat purposes, better). UA has an expert variant that's juiced up slightly that you can use as-is.

SowZ
2014-02-21, 09:18 PM
Experts are already almost on-par with a rogue (and for some out of combat purposes, better). UA has an expert variant that's juiced up slightly that you can use as-is.

Hmm? Pardon?

AuraTwilight
2014-02-21, 09:27 PM
I think he's talking about the Generic Expert.

SowZ
2014-02-21, 09:29 PM
I think he's talking about the Generic Expert.

Ohh, okay. I thought we were talking about the NPC class?

AuraTwilight
2014-02-21, 10:40 PM
We are. Stoneback thinks the Generic Expert is a variant of the NPC class.

TuggyNE
2014-02-22, 12:25 AM
We are. Stoneback thinks the Generic Expert is a variant of the NPC class.

Which it isn't; the three generic classes have, so far as I know, no relation to any other class, PC or NPC, and in fact are intended to replace all base classes wholesale (as well as, possibly, prestige classes). That's why the names are reused.

SowZ
2014-02-22, 02:48 PM
Which it isn't; the three generic classes have, so far as I know, no relation to any other class, PC or NPC, and in fact are intended to replace all base classes wholesale (as well as, possibly, prestige classes). That's why the names are reused.

Yeah, as I understand it, the generic class rules are balanced against each other and intended to be run in their own box, not to be played or compared alongside standard classes.

Stoneback
2014-02-22, 05:20 PM
Consider me schooled. :smallbiggrin:

SowZ
2014-02-22, 08:07 PM
Consider me schooled. :smallbiggrin:

Two classes called expert, it is an easy mistake to make.