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View Full Version : [3.5 feat] Practiced Initiator



Zweisteine
2014-01-21, 10:20 PM
I've always found the limited number of classes an initiator can go into before losing high-level maneuvers to be something of a restriction on the versatility of the classes, so I thought I'd do something about it.
Ladies and gentlemen of the Playground, I bring you...

Practiced Initiator

Prerequisites
Martial Lore 4 ranks, three martial maneuvers

Benefit
Your initiator level increases by 2. A character with two or more initiating classes must choose which class this bonus applies to. The bonus to initiator levels applies only to that class. If that class (even if it is a prestige class) also provides the prerequisite for an initiating prestige class, that presitge class also gains the benefit of this bonus.

This benefit can't increase your initiator level to higher than your hit dice. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain Hit Dice in levels of noninitiating classes, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus. For example, a human 5th-level warblade/1st-level fighter who selects this feat would increase his initiator level from 5th to 6th (since he has a 6 Hit Dice). If he later gained a fighter level, he would gain the remainder of the bonus and his warblade initiator level would become 7th (since he now has 7 Hit Dice). This feat does not affect your maneuvers per day or maneuvers known. It increases your initiator level only, which allows you to learn higher level maneuvers.

Special
You may take this twice. Its effects stack, or it may be applied to two different intiating classes. For each point of epic attack bonus you have, you may take this feat one additional time. A fighter may select Practiced Initiator as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Suggested adaption
In a high-optimization game, you may want to lower the bonus grante by this feat to +1. This prevents excessive use of the feat to gain noninitiating class' abilities as well as high-level maneuvers.



This feat aims to allow for larger dips and a wider array of prestige classes to be available to the Tome of Battle classes, but without allowing them to devote their entire paths to
I realize that this feat is quite powerful, but it does not seem to be on a game-breaking level. I would hesitate to allow this to a player known for over-optimization, but other than that, it seems very useful. It effectively allows you to treat two full BAB levels as full Initiator level for purposes of learning higher level maneuvers.

The main issue with this feat is that it applies inequally to Swordsages, who do not have a full base attack bonus to begin with. My only idea for a fix for this is to make the cap on how high it can boost your initiator level be "the portion of your base attack bonus derived from noninitiating classes," but that seems to be a bit of a clunky wording, though it does allow Swordsages to benefit from the fit quite a bit more.
This is no longer an issue, as the bonus is now limited by hit dice rather than base attack bonus.

This is my first (posted) homebrew, so don't go at all easy on me, please. :smallwink:

Thanks!

Grod_The_Giant
2014-01-22, 01:04 AM
It's... kind of weak, to be honest. Other classes already give 1/2 level to initiator level; spending a feat to boost that by 1 is practically useless. I'd kick it up to +4, to match the other Practiced ____ feats, and remove the limit on how many times you can take it-- the BAB limit is perfectly sufficient.

chaos_redefined
2014-01-22, 08:39 AM
Is there a reason it needs to be BAB and not HD? That fixes the swordsage problem without being all clunky-wordy.

And, as the poster above me pointed out... +1 IL is too small a bonus. Practed Caster/Manifester/etc... give a +4 bonus for 1 feat.

Zweisteine
2014-01-22, 09:32 AM
But Practiced Spellcaster does not let you at higher-level spells. As this feat stands, taking it twice allows you to go Warblade or Crusader 10/Other classes 10, rather than the normal 14/6 split you need to hit IL 17.

As for using BAB as the limit instead of HD, I felt that this works better, because it restricts the feat's bonus from applying as effectively to nom-martial classes. It makes it harder for, say, a Wizard to be a high-powered initiator as well.


Which of these would be a better modification:
Change to +4 but limit to taking once, OR change to +2 and remove feat limit, OR just remove the limit?

Grod_The_Giant
2014-01-22, 11:49 AM
But Practiced Spellcaster does not let you at higher-level spells.
But caster level doesn't already half-scale, and spells are WAY better than maneuvers.

Just to Browse
2014-01-22, 06:43 PM
As Grod say's, a +1 bonus is too low for me to care very much. However, making the bonus larger just encourages bad things like going 6 levels in fighter/barb before dipping into warblade for a bunch of level 4 maneuvers. The larger the bonus becomes, the more likely I am to take levels in non-ToB classes, then dip into ToB classes for the huge pile of high-level maneuvers.

The only way I can think of boosting IL without causing problems is by putting in a rule about re-selecting maneuvers. Either require people to buy maneuvers based off IL strictly from their class (ie. a core ToB rule change), or allow them to switch their known maneuvers daily or some such (this could be a core rule or a new feat or maybe a skill trick).

Not to rain on your new concept, but I don't think the concept surrounding this feat is feasible as-is.

Zweisteine
2014-01-22, 09:09 PM
The only way I can think of boosting IL without causing problems is by putting in a rule about re-selecting maneuvers. Either require people to buy maneuvers based off IL strictly from their class (ie. a core ToB rule change), or allow them to switch their known maneuvers daily or some such (this could be a core rule or a new feat or maybe a skill trick).

Not to rain on your new concept, but I don't think the concept surrounding this feat is feasible as-is.
Not counting the feat towards learning higher level maneuvers would defeat the only use of the feat; initiator level really does very little besides help you get stronger maneuvers.

I believe that the problem of ToB dips for higher level maneuvers is solved by maneuver prerequisites. You can't learn high-level maneuvers (except some in Stone Dragon) without having a bunch at lower levels too. A Barbarian 7/Warblade 1 who has this feat twice will only get access to 2nd level maneuvers, at best, and at the cost of two feats.

Most classes don't have a lot of feats to throw around, and those that do (mostly fighters) aren't strong enough that this will break the game at all.


As is, the build allows for a [full BAB class] 8/Warblade 12 to have 9th level maneuvers at level 19. If the last two of those Warblade levels are replaced with ToB PrC levels, that allows you to learn 1 9th level maneuver.

No time to write more.

Zaydos
2014-01-22, 09:47 PM
It requires 3 maneuvers meaning that you aren't taking this feat to dip into a ToB class unless you're taking multiple ToB classes, or spending 3 feats on Martial Study/Stance before taking the dip.

I'd say make it +2, up to your character level, and only apply to one initiator class (as your IL for warblade/crusader/swordsage are not automatically the same).

I say make it character level instead of BAB because while it does help gishes it also allows swordsages to make full use of it, and rogues, bards, marshals, etc.

Either way to take it effectively for the dipping purpose it would be Crusader 1/Full BAB (or just class) 7/Warblade X to spend 2 feats to get 2 extra 5th level maneuvers and due to the usefulness of certain low level maneuvers (the Diamond Mind counters, WRT, Iron Heart Surge) you'll probably pick up some less than 5th level maneuvers this way.

It's not dips that this is most useful for, it's the fact that it allows you to get 8 levels of class features and then pick up level appropriate maneuvers which may or may not be too powerful but really depends upon optimization level of players.

Zweisteine
2014-01-22, 11:14 PM
So I made a few changes.

How does it look now?

Just to Browse
2014-01-23, 03:05 AM
I didn't notice the maneuver prereq, and I kind of forgot that not everyone houserules away ToB maneuver prerequisites. I still think it's going to encourage delaying your initiator levels (especially when you start introducing homebrew initiator base classes and/or discipline retraining, such that flexibility skyrockets). Everything about this feat just seems to encourage abuse instead of use.

The point of practiced spellcaster was that you could take the feat and become a gish without being totally screwed. Tome of Battle kind of covers that already, by allowing initiators to do magical wuxia things and act like gishes. So since that niche is kind of already filled, what is the point of this feat? Why do you think a player should take it?

That all being said, HD is definitely the way to go. I'm still very uncomfortable with any increase to IL.

Zweisteine
2014-01-23, 06:12 PM
I think I just added in the maneuver prereq, actually. What of I numbed it up even higher, or replaced it with (or just added) a prereq of levels in an initiating class.

Other prereq ideas:
Character level prereq. Not traditional, but effective and unskippable, barring über-cheese.
BAB prereq: hurts swordsage, so no
Higher skill prereq: makes it harder to get, especially if you don't start with the initiating class
Other ideas?

Actually, I've had this idea in mind for a while, but I only finalized it because I wanted to use it for a high-/silly-op build, and a similar, practical character I'm planning. :smallredface: Probably a bad use, but it's fun.

Maybe I could just make a list of ACFs that sacrifice class features to get improved Initiator Level...