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ken-do-nim
2007-01-25, 07:12 AM
We had a monk balance thread a while back, and someone asked if the battlefist balanced them. Well, I thought about, and here's the result.

The battlefist not only can be enchanted, but is considered one size category larger. So here's a monk 12/psionic fist 8. That does 20th level monk damage of 2d10, so the battlefist would do 4d8. Of course this character would have improved natural attack to bring that up to 6d8. Now is where the psionic fist comes in. He does expansion all the time to go from medium to huge-sized. Not only does that make improved trip worthwhile and give him reach, but it takes the battlefist damage from 6d8 to 10d8 (I think)!

So you've got a flurry of +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 for 10d8 each hit, not including strength bonus and a +5 enchantment on the battlefist. Plus at 9th level psionic fist, there's probably some other awesome things you can do with this. So on average that's 4.5 per die from a d8 x 10 = 45 + 5 for the weapon + 8 for strength (assume 16 base, expanded to huge is 20, then +6 belt of strength) = 58 damage per hit.

Whaddya think?

Rigeld2
2007-01-25, 07:55 AM
Well, lets put it up against a Balor.

10d8 is average 45 damage. Lets say a +4 str bonus since hes got lots of other stats to look after. So +24x4/+19/+14. (battlefist has haste)

.5*58+.5*58+.5*58+.5*58+.2*58+.05*58=29*4+12+3=131 damage vs an AC 35 creature.

Power Attacking Shock Trooper with a Greatsword.
2d6 averages to 7 damage. Only really needs to worry about STR, so item, tome, levels gives a 34, which is +12, and a +5 greatsword.

+37/+37/+32/+27/+22
.95*64+.95*64+.85*64+.55*64+.4*64=122+54+26=202

Now... the Balor also has DR 15. That subtracts 75 damage from the Fighter, making his 127. The monks? 43 damage, if every attack did more than 15 damage, which isnt likely.

Darrin
2007-01-25, 08:19 AM
10d8 is average 40 damage.


Actually, it's 45. Might want to add Superior Unarmed Strike, possibly a Monk's Belt.

Rigeld2
2007-01-25, 08:28 AM
Actually, it's 45. Might want to add Superior Unarmed Strike, possibly a Monk's Belt.
Monk unarmed damage doesnt go above level 20, so neither one will help. And raising it to 45 wont help at all either - the DR will eat it up.

Ramza00
2007-01-25, 09:36 AM
How would you price the battlefist for enchantments over +1? It says you can get better gauntlets, but doesn't list the price? I am sure every monk would gladly choose shadow striking (to avoid dr based off alingment and metal) for a +3 cost.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-25, 09:59 AM
Well, lets put it up against a Balor.

10d8 is average 45 damage. Lets say a +4 str bonus since hes got lots of other stats to look after. So +24x4/+19/+14. (battlefist has haste)

.5*58+.5*58+.5*58+.5*58+.2*58+.05*58=29*4+12+3=131 damage vs an AC 35 creature.

Power Attacking Shock Trooper with a Greatsword.
2d6 averages to 7 damage. Only really needs to worry about STR, so item, tome, levels gives a 34, which is +12, and a +5 greatsword.

+37/+37/+32/+27/+22
.95*64+.95*64+.85*64+.55*64+.4*64=122+54+26=202

Now... the Balor also has DR 15. That subtracts 75 damage from the Fighter, making his 127. The monks? 43 damage, if every attack did more than 15 damage, which isnt likely.

I don't have the time to redo the calculations, but I want to point out:
1. The balor has ac39 with unholy aura.
2. The battlefist and the greatsword can both be holy cold-iron forged, so we can take damage reduction out of the equation, plus add 2d6 per hit of holy damage.
3. If I'm not mistaken, shock trooper allows you to switch power attack penalty from your to hit roll to your armor class. So by not lowering your to hit, you are leaving your defenses wide open. If the balor has minions, sure you may take out the balor with your 202 (+ holy damage), but the minions will destroy you. They can power attack themselves for full, knowing your armor class is nothing. So now this comparison becomes situational. The battlefist monk can always do the numbers we are computing above, whereas the fighter with greatsword will only be able to shock troop in the right situation.

Artanis
2007-01-25, 10:18 AM
We had a monk balance thread a while back, and someone asked if the battlefist balanced them. Well, I thought about, and here's the result.

The battlefist not only can be enchanted, but is considered one size category larger. So here's a monk 12/psionic fist 8. That does 20th level monk damage of 2d10, so the battlefist would do 4d8. Of course this character would have improved natural attack to bring that up to 6d8. Now is where the psionic fist comes in. He does expansion all the time to go from medium to huge-sized. Not only does that make improved trip worthwhile and give him reach, but it takes the battlefist damage from 6d8 to 10d8 (I think)!

So you've got a flurry of +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 for 10d8 each hit, not including strength bonus and a +5 enchantment on the battlefist. Plus at 9th level psionic fist, there's probably some other awesome things you can do with this. So on average that's 4.5 per die from a d8 x 10 = 45 + 5 for the weapon + 8 for strength (assume 16 base, expanded to huge is 20, then +6 belt of strength) = 58 damage per hit.

Whaddya think?
Psionic Fist is actually what got me to buckle down and really study the numbers to ask the question in the first place. As far as I can tell, Psionic Lion's Charge will let the Monk charge AND flurry in the same turn. Add in the Ebberon feats that let you deal extra damage on a charge (gets up to +4d6, IIRC), and to my untrained eye, it looked like you could lay a whole ton of hurt on something the instant you got within 180 feet of it.

The key word in all this is "untrained". I'm really bad at this sort of thing (Improved Natural Attack and Expansion never even occurred to me :smalleek:), so I needed expert advice before deciding that I'd found a neat combo after all :smallwink:


Edit: Just thought of something else: being a Warforged might serve to reduce MAD slightly as well. Because of the enchantability of their torso, a level 20 Warforged Monk only needs another 4AC from Wisdom or 3AC from elsewhere to catch up to the best armor a Fighter can buy (4 Monk + 2 Warforged - 1 Warforged WIS penalty = 5 vs. 9 for "normal" armor). So it looks like the Warforged wouldn't need Dex nearly as much as a "normal" Monk to bring his AC up to par with the Fighter. Hell, taking Force Screen with one of the Psionic Fist levels would do the trick.



How would you price the battlefist for enchantments over +1? It says you can get better gauntlets, but doesn't list the price? I am sure every monk would gladly choose shadow striking (to avoid dr based off alingment and metal) for a +3 cost.
The "basic" (+1) Battlefist is, IIRC, 2600gp. According to the SRD, a +1 enchant costs 2000gp. So I'd say it would work out to be just like any other weapon with a base cost of 600 for the masterwork version. From there, just use the chart like you would any other weapon.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-25, 10:59 AM
Psionic Fist is actually what got me to buckle down and really study the numbers to ask the question in the first place. As far as I can tell, Psionic Lion's Charge will let the Monk charge AND flurry in the same turn. Add in the Ebberon feats that let you deal extra damage on a charge (gets up to +4d6, IIRC), and to my untrained eye, it looked like you could lay a whole ton of hurt on something the instant you got within 180 feet of it.

The key word in all this is "untrained". I'm really bad at this sort of thing (Improved Natural Attack and Expansion never even occurred to me :smalleek:), so I needed expert advice before deciding that I'd found a neat combo after all :smallwink:


The extra damage from powerful charge, greater powerful charge, flying kick, and similar feats would only be added to the first attack in the pounce. I can't remember where I read that, but I know I did.

All the same, psionic lion's charge is amazing. Check out this other part of it: For every additional power point you spend, each of your attacks after a charge in the current round gains a circumstance bonus on damage equal to the number of additional points spent. So with a hasted flurry at the end of the charge ... it can really add up! And there's no reason this character couldn't have power attack/leap attack/shock trooper either.

In fact, with my monk 12/psionic fist 8 build, this character gets up to 4th level psychic warrior powers and there are some other awesome ones:
- vampiric blade, if the DM allows it to affect the battlefist (I would). Yes, I just did 45 base damage with my weapon, so that's 23 back please.
- empathic feedback, if you hit me, you take damage. Great for shock troopers.
- mental barrier/force screen , improve your ac
- dimension slide, put yourself into position so you can charge again.

Rigeld2
2007-01-25, 11:05 AM
and there are standard action charges
Only if you are only able to make a standard action (Zombies, Slowed, etc.). If you have a full action available, you cannot do a partial charge.

Yeah, the Shock Trooper Fighter is vulnerable. Thats why he depends on the rest of the party to lock down the minions before he puts his thang down.

BTW, I didnt count in any of the other ways to increase power attack return that multiplies his damage, not just adds to it.

Rigeld2
2007-01-25, 11:12 AM
1. The balor has ac39 with unholy aura.
Worse for the monk.
2. The battlefist and the greatsword can both be holy cold-iron forged, so we can take damage reduction out of the equation, plus add 2d6 per hit of holy damage.[/quote]
Mostly cancels out, tho the monk gains some.

Yakk
2007-01-25, 11:34 AM
First, get the offhand attack chain.

Use a spiked chain for your "offhand" attacks. (Finessable! Plus reach and works well with monk bonus feats.)

Get shock trooper, do a -15 AC shock trooper attack.
+2 strength damage (why not, it is cheap), +5 enchantment, 2d6 holy damage

Now you are (from BaB only)
+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3 @ 78 average damage (85.1 including crits)
plus
+13/+8/+3 @ 52 average damage (56.5 including crits)

+5 enchantment +12 dex to hit: +17 to hit on top of that

+30x4/+25/+20 to hit @ 85.1
+30/+25/+20 @ 56.5 average damage

VS any AC from 32 to 39, this works out to:

301.86 damage plus 34.005 per AC under 39.

(Including the 19x2 criticals on both weapons).

(@39 AC, you get .1+.35+.6*4=2.85 fist hits and .1+.35+.6=1.05 chain attacks.

Each point of power attack thus deals 5.445 extra damage -- so 81.675 of this is due to power attack damage.

Each AC under that adds .30 fist hits and .15 chain hits down to 32 AC, so 34.005 damage. Of that 0.66 of it is power attack damage, so 9.9 per point of AC from the 15 point shock trooper.)

We just beat D&D. Hmm, I did forget to scale up the spiked chain damage with all that character growth... Oh well. :)

To compare on even footing, if we are fighting against the 35 AC balor mentioned before, that is 437.88 from the monk on average per round.

Plus, because the monk is attacking 9 times per round, the variance will probably be tighter than the fighter's 5 attacks.

Lastly, the monk only burned 15 AC while the fighter burned 20 AC, and monks with 34 dex tend to have better AC than fighters anyhow (~46 AC before any cheese).

ken-do-nim
2007-01-25, 12:02 PM
First, get the offhand attack chain.

Use a spiked chain for your "offhand" attacks. (Finessable! Plus reach and works well with monk bonus feats.)



Are you sure a monk can take the two-weapon fighting feat tree and still flurry if the off-hand weapon is a non-monk weapon? I've only heard it done with quarterstaff.

Edit: I'm also surprised the numbers come out higher. I would have thought the -2 penalty on all the monk's battlefist attacks would have lowered the chances of hitting ac 39 so much that it wouldn't be worth it.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-25, 12:07 PM
Are you sure a monk can take the two-weapon fighting feat tree and still flurry if the off-hand weapon is a non-monk weapon? I've only heard it done with quarterstaff.


Absolutely :smallsmile:

Yakk
2007-01-25, 12:17 PM
And did I mention the last thing about that build?

You are a monk with a spiked chain. I mean, how cool is that?

Ahum.

Note that the spiked chain cheese isn't as good as you might think. It only gives the monk another ~10 damage at 39 AC. However, it also grants ~+10 damage over non-spiked chain for every AC under 39 AC.

Plus it gives the monk extra reach/trip/disarm options and a good weapon to use on a charge.

The largest difference is that I gave my monk weapon finesse, while Rig didn't. With this build, go for dex whole hog.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-25, 12:26 PM
And did I mention the last thing about that build?

You are a monk with a spiked chain. I mean, how cool is that?

Ahum.



That is very, very cool. Ever seen the movie Iron Monkey? By the same folks who did Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon but I liked this one better. Anyway, one of the main characters used a chain (I don't think it was spiked) and the way it came out of his sleeve - very cool. I hereby say we support spiked chain as a monk weapon. :-)

ken-do-nim
2007-01-25, 12:29 PM
Lastly, the monk only burned 15 AC while the fighter burned 20 AC, and monks with 34 dex tend to have better AC than fighters anyhow (~46 AC before any cheese).

Oh and one other way cool thing about this build. The monk/psionic fist has greater concealing amorpha to give him a 50% miss chance. So when he drains his armor class using shock trooper, he shrugs because ac isn't as important.

Yay! Breaking D&D is fun! All hail the warforged battlefist/spiked-chain wielding power shock troop attacking monk/psionic fist!

Edit: Bubble burst. Spiked chain is a two-handed weapon. Can't use it with the battlefist.

Yakk
2007-01-25, 01:16 PM
Does the Battlefist disallow using two handed weapons? Is it finessable? (I don't have the sourcebook)

A reference to it claims that it boosts monk unarmed damage -- which does not require using a particular limb. A monk can be using a 2H weapon and do unarmed damage using hit feet/head/nose.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-25, 01:24 PM
Does the Battlefist disallow using two handed weapons? Is it finessable? (I don't have the sourcebook)

A reference to it claims that it boosts monk unarmed damage -- which does not require using a particular limb. A monk can be using a 2H weapon and do unarmed damage using hit feet/head/nose.

The warforged actually removes his hand and wrist, and plugs the battlefist into his forearm stump. Not only can he therefore not use a two-handed weapon, he loses a ring slot and I'm not sure if climb speed is affected but it should be.

Edit: I suppose if the warforged wants two-weapon fighting, he could always get a second battlefist :-) Who actually needs to pick things up, anyway?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-25, 01:25 PM
Any sensible ruling would require you to use the arm with the Battlefist attached to benefit from the increased damage.

Edit: You could always see if the DM would allow a Battlefoot or Battleknee at an increased cost.

Rigeld2
2007-01-25, 01:33 PM
First, get the offhand attack chain.

Use a spiked chain for your "offhand" attacks. (Finessable! Plus reach and works well with monk bonus feats.)
Spiked Chain is a two handed weapon, so you cant use it with a Battlefist afaik. Also, you cannot flurry if youre using a non monk weapon.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#kama), nunchaku (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#nunchaku), quarterstaff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#quarterstaff), sai (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#sai), shuriken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#shuriken), and siangham (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#siangham)).

Khantalas
2007-01-25, 01:34 PM
See, the illustration in ECS shows the battlefist as an open hand. Does it really prevent a warforged from wearing a ring? It is reasonable to say he can't use two-handed weapon, since the gauntlet is huge.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-25, 01:45 PM
See, the illustration in ECS shows the battlefist as an open hand. Does it really prevent a warforged from wearing a ring? It is reasonable to say he can't use two-handed weapon, since the gauntlet is huge.

The components take up a body slot as a magic item in a similar place. Gauntlets/Gloves would be the one in this case, not rings.

In the description there is not any restrictions on the use of the hand. (Other arm-attachments does)

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-25, 01:47 PM
Spiked Chain is a two handed weapon, so you cant use it with a Battlefist afaik. Also, you cannot flurry if youre using a non monk weapon.

You can flurry, but you cannot use the non-monk weapon in the flurry.
You could, however, flurry with monk weapons and Unarmed Strikes and use a non-Monk weapon as an off-hand attack with TWF.

Yakk
2007-01-25, 02:06 PM
And an off-hand attack with a two-handed weapon does 2x damage on a power attack.

But, you can do your monk attack sequence, then quickdraw your spiked chain (free action) and continue your attack sequence using the spiked chain as offhand attacks.

But, as noted, most of the damage boost comes from using Weapon Finess on the Unarmed Attack, and making a dex-monk.

Khantalas
2007-01-25, 02:12 PM
I always house rule that a monk can use her Dex modifier in place of her Str modifier with attack rolls.

It does make sense, as a monk would have to waste a feat to be both able to hit better and avoid attacks - and it certainly doesn't overpower the monk. It's just an extra feat at 3.0, and not even that at 3.5.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-25, 02:32 PM
And an off-hand attack with a two-handed weapon does 2x damage on a power attack.

But, you can do your monk attack sequence, then quickdraw your spiked chain (free action) and continue your attack sequence using the spiked chain as offhand attacks.

But, as noted, most of the damage boost comes from using Weapon Finess on the Unarmed Attack, and making a dex-monk.

Before you throw quickdraw into the mix, let's keep track of our feats, because I think we are running out. We've got the 1,3,6,9,12,15,18 levels for 7 feats. The following are already used up: improved natural attack, wild talent, power attack, shock trooper. That leaves us with 3, and remember at 1st level a character doesn't qualify for many. I don't have it in front of me, but I also think shock trooper takes improved bull rush as a prereq. So now we are left with 2. Rather than go the two-weapon fighting route, I might go with leap attack and ... perhaps improved initiative for the 1st level feat?

Gosh, I can't wait to see the psionic lion's charge full flurry with leap attack/shock troop on.

Yakk
2007-01-25, 04:11 PM
Is there any way to make this a 7/8 monk/psimonk 5 fighter (or other full-bab class) build?

It would give you an extra iterative attack, and a monk's belt makes up for the lost damage.

Ramza00
2007-01-25, 04:18 PM
Is there any way to make this a 7/8 monk/psimonk 5 fighter (or other full-bab class) build?

It would give you an extra iterative attack, and a monk's belt makes up for the lost damage.
If you are in forgotten realms shou disciple. Its a 5 lvl class advances flurry, monk damage, 2 bonus feats, and is full bab. Best yet it allows you to flurry with any martial weapon.

Yakk
2007-01-25, 04:39 PM
You don't need monk damage or flurry silly. A monk's belt will give you the 5 levels of monk H2H progression you missed.

Ramza00
2007-01-25, 05:04 PM
Well usually you use Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/X 9 where X is a full bab prc. You already have Monk 11 damage, so a monk's belt+superior unarmed strike means you don't need to worry anymore about what the X prc is. It can be any warrior prc.

Person_Man
2007-01-25, 05:20 PM
Well if you're going to go the psionic route, the superior way of doing it would be to be a normal Psychic Warrior or Psion/Slayer using Claws of the Beast, Improved Natural Attack, Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike, Expansion, and one level of Warshaper. Around ECL 15, you can easily deal 12d6 damage per hit, with 4-5ish attacks per round. And that's before you throw in Psionic Lion's Charge, Hustle, Claws of the Vampire+Karmic Strike, etc. Monk or Monk/PrC builds are generally a very poor way of dealing damage.

Ramza00
2007-01-25, 05:38 PM
Well if you're going to go the psionic route, the superior way of doing it would be to be a normal Psychic Warrior or Psion/Slayer using Claws of the Beast, Improved Natural Attack, Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike, Expansion, and one level of Warshaper. Around ECL 15, you can easily deal 12d6 damage per hit, with 4-5ish attacks per round. And that's before you throw in Psionic Lion's Charge, Hustle, Claws of the Vampire+Karmic Strike, etc. Monk or Monk/PrC builds are generally a very poor way of dealing damage.
Why can't you do both? Besides limited feats?

Person_Man
2007-01-25, 06:35 PM
Why can't you do both? Besides limited feats?

You could. But in addition to fewer feats, a Monk/Psionic Fist simply won't be able to manifest the psychic powers nearly as often or as powerfully as a Psychic Warrior or Psion/Slayer (6 manifester levels can mean a HUGE difference for many powers).

Plus, in most cases you won't be using the benefits of Psionic Fist. It only stacks with your Monk levels for unarmed damage, bonuses to unarmored Armor Class, and Fast Movement. You don't need unarmed damage if you're using Claws of the Beast which have a much higher damage output. You don't need the bonus to AC, because a Psychic Warrior can just wear far superior armor. And because most boards have limited space, you usually don't need Fast Movement after the first or second round of combat. And even then, Psychic Warriors still have Hustle.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-25, 06:35 PM
Well, lets put it up against a Balor.

10d8 is average 45 damage. Lets say a +4 str bonus since hes got lots of other stats to look after. So +24x4/+19/+14. (battlefist has haste)

.5*58+.5*58+.5*58+.5*58+.2*58+.05*58=29*4+12+3=131 damage vs an AC 35 creature.

Power Attacking Shock Trooper with a Greatsword.
2d6 averages to 7 damage. Only really needs to worry about STR, so item, tome, levels gives a 34, which is +12, and a +5 greatsword.

+37/+37/+32/+27/+22
.95*64+.95*64+.85*64+.55*64+.4*64=122+54+26=202

Now... the Balor also has DR 15. That subtracts 75 damage from the Fighter, making his 127. The monks? 43 damage, if every attack did more than 15 damage, which isnt likely.

Now that I'm home I have my books handy, so I can read up on this stuff. Shock trooper only improves power attack on a charge. Sure this comparison could be a psychic warrior doing a lion's charge (EDIT: no it couldn't because psychic warriors go up to +15 only), but round 2 with the psychic warrior now toe-to-toe with the foe shocktrooper isn't an option.

Other things I need to read up on:
shou disciple, sounds nifty!
rapidstrike/improved rapidstrike, what books are those in?
warshaper prestige class

ken-do-nim
2007-01-25, 06:48 PM
Well if you're going to go the psionic route, the superior way of doing it would be to be a normal Psychic Warrior or Psion/Slayer using Claws of the Beast, Improved Natural Attack, Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike, Expansion, and one level of Warshaper. Around ECL 15, you can easily deal 12d6 damage per hit, with 4-5ish attacks per round. And that's before you throw in Psionic Lion's Charge, Hustle, Claws of the Vampire+Karmic Strike, etc. Monk or Monk/PrC builds are generally a very poor way of dealing damage.

I've started doing my homework.

A - I got the damage output for my battlefist monk/psionic fist wrong. Turns out it is 12d8, not 10d8.
B - I see that if you pump enough points into claws of the beast you can do 5d6 damage. Sadly, on the size increase charts, they don't list 5d6. It's got 4d6 and 6d6, but no 5d6. So I'm stumped, but can you walk me through how 5d6 increases to 12d6 (presumably through expansion of 2 size categories)?
C - I don't see how your build qualifies for warshaper. I read the prereqs, and it says "cast polymorph spell" but nothing about a given psionic power.

Rigeld2
2007-01-25, 06:51 PM
Forgot about the charge thing.. /shrug. Toss in Leap Attack then (might as well)

+39/+39/+34/+29/+24 (counting charge bonus)
.95*144+.95*144+.80*144+.55*144+.3*144=137+137+115 +79+43=511

That doesnt count the Holy damage. Add in (.95*7+.95*7+.8*7+.55*7+.3*7) ~26 for that.


I think that splats that opponent and I can 5' step the next round to line up the next one.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-25, 06:54 PM
Is there any way to make this a 7/8 monk/psimonk 5 fighter (or other full-bab class) build?

It would give you an extra iterative attack, and a monk's belt makes up for the lost damage.

The difference between monk 7 and monk 12 means no poison immunity, no abundant step, 9 points of saving throws (vs. 6 you'd get from 5 levels of say fighter), improved evasion, 20 feet of movement, 10 points of self-healing (critical for a warforged) etc. But more importantly, psionic fist does not improve flurry of blows, so a 7th level monk is still at a -1 penalty while flurrying and the extra attack from greater flurry at 11th is lost.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-25, 06:56 PM
Forgot about the charge thing.. /shrug. Toss in Leap Attack then (might as well)

+39/+39/+34/+29/+24 (counting charge bonus)
.95*144+.95*144+.80*144+.55*144+.3*144=137+137+115 +79+43=511

That doesnt count the Holy damage. Add in (.95*7+.95*7+.8*7+.55*7+.3*7) ~26 for that.


I think that splats that opponent and I can 5' step the next round to line up the next one.

Um, what are you computing? A full BAB class would not have psionic lion's charge. So you are really looking at .95*144 + .95*7 and that's it, and you've just left yourself with no armor class against the counterattack.

Rigeld2
2007-01-25, 07:09 PM
Boots of Psionic Lion’s Charge (XPH, Use-activated: On charge at ML 20 ): 80,000
Custom item /shrug if you dont like that, Drop 1 level of fighter, pick up 1 level of Psychich Warrior and grab a http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psicrowns.htm#beast or a dorje.

edit: yes, picking up a PW level drops 1 off your BAB. It wont affect the average damage much at all.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-25, 07:25 PM
Boots of Psionic Lionís Charge (XPH, Use-activated: On charge at ML 20 ): 80,000
Custom item /shrug if you dont like that, Drop 1 level of fighter, pick up 1 level of Psychich Warrior and grab a http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psicrowns.htm#beast or a dorje.

edit: yes, picking up a PW level drops 1 off your BAB. It wont affect the average damage much at all.

That's pretty sweet, thanks for the link.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-01-25, 08:07 PM
There is an important fact you seem to be missing:

Unless you actually have Monk11, you DO NOT HAVE GREATER FLURRY.



Monk Abilities

A Psionic Fistís class levels stack with his monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) levels for the purpose of determining his unarmed damage and bonuses to Armor Class and unarmored speed. His class levels do not apply to other monk abilities such as flurry of blows, slow fall, and so on.

So unless you have Monk11, you're not getting the most out of your flurry.

With this in mind:

Fig4/Mnk11/Psionic Fist5 (Grab a Monk's Belt)

This gives you:

3 bonus Fighter feats, with which you can get Shock Trooper (make SURE you get Fighter *FIRST*, THEN go Monk, so you don't loose progression)

+16 BAB at level 20 for an extra attack (This is why we do it with Fighter and not PsiWar to further increase powers known and total PP) Total BAB progression should look like +16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1. This is without the spiked chain added in, just unarmed attacks.

This gives you Greater Flurry, and it gives you 5th level Manifester. So take Practiced Manifester and you've got 9th level Manifester, but still only have 2 1st, 2 2nd, and 1 3rd power.

I'd take Expansion (duh) and Inertial Armor (to replace needing Bracers of Armor or depending on the party mage for Mage Armor) for my two 1st level powers, then Psionic Lion's Charge and Dissolving Touch/Weapon (which ever you want to use, depending on if Battlefists are manufactured or natural weapons, for +4d6 Acid damage), then for the nasty third level power, I'd go with Empathic Transfer, Hostile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicTransferHostile.htm). You just hit me for 50, eh? Okay, umm... how about this: You take the 50 damage, and I'll heal it back. This goes GREAT with Karmic Strike and Shock Trooper. You drop your AC below 10 and do insane damage. He hits you. You make an AoO for more insane damage, then make him take the damage and heal it back up yourself.

And as for epic progression? Metamind5. Free manifesting of your 1st-3rd powers (i.e. all of them).

Rigeld2
2007-01-25, 08:26 PM
Unless you actually have Monk11, you DO NOT HAVE GREATER FLURRY.
Unless the PrC youre in advances flurry. Which... omg most of the PrCs weve been discussing do.

Person_Man
2007-01-25, 08:52 PM
I've started doing my homework.

A - I got the damage output for my battlefist monk/psionic fist wrong. Turns out it is 12d8, not 10d8.
B - I see that if you pump enough points into claws of the beast you can do 5d6 damage. Sadly, on the size increase charts, they don't list 5d6. It's got 4d6 and 6d6, but no 5d6. So I'm stumped, but can you walk me through how 5d6 increases to 12d6 (presumably through expansion of 2 size categories)?
C - I don't see how your build qualifies for warshaper. I read the prereqs, and it says "cast polymorph spell" but nothing about a given psionic power.

Ok, so first let's get the size progression of natural weapons clear:


IMPROVED NATURAL ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.You can usually qualify for Warshaper by using Metamorphosis, which duplicates Polymorph. Or you can pick up the Shapechanger subtype by being a Changeling, Shifter, or Hengeyokai.

Claws of the Beast gets you to 5d6 when manifested with 19 power points (ECL 16 with Overchannel). Though because of the way natural damage progresses (4d6, 6d6) you only need to manifest at 15 points (ECL 13 with Overchannel).

Expansion for 2 size increases, getting you to 8d6.

Improved Natural Attack gets you to 12d6.

Warshaper gets you to something higher, I'm guessing 16d6.

You can get up to Colossal size using Greater Metamorphosis (Psion 8/Slayer 10/Warshaper 1). I have no clue what damage would be. 24d6 per hit?

Anywho, its pretty much an intellectual exercise. This sort of abuse is just begging for the DM to step in and invoke Rule 0.

Darrin
2007-01-26, 09:09 AM
If you are in forgotten realms shou disciple. Its a 5 lvl class advances flurry, monk damage, 2 bonus feats, and is full bab. Best yet it allows you to flurry with any martial weapon.

It doesn't quite advance flurry. Shou Disciple is 3.0 material, and it assumes the monk has a separate unarmed attack bonus rather than the 3.5 flurry ability. And the "martial flurry" has since been clarified as a separate ability from the monk's flurry of blows (which is darned odd... if you're a monk/shou disciple, you can get two extra flurry attacks for a -4? *boggle*).

ken-do-nim
2007-01-26, 09:14 AM
One thing that this thread has taught me is that:
Psionic Lion's Charge + Expansion + Power Attack + Leap Attack + ShockTrooper Reckless Charge + Haste = broken D&D.

Although I'd laugh at the warrior who powered up like this then charged some monster with a fear radius, failed the will save, and turned and ran.

Person_Man
2007-01-26, 09:53 AM
One thing that this thread has taught me is that:
Psionic Lion's Charge + Expansion + Power Attack + Leap Attack + ShockTrooper Reckless Charge + Haste = broken D&D.

No its not. By the time you reach the level where you can pull off that combo, a regular Sorcerer using metamagic can deal just as much damage. Even then, Greater Invisibility, Fly, Dominate Person, Black Tentacles, Summon Monster, Polymorph (which I ban), etc., are far more powerful.

Don't get me wrong. I love the Psychic Warrior. Pre-Tome of Battle, he's was probably the best melee types out there. But something is only "broken" in D&D if it ruins the game for the other players. Massive melee damage is strong, but by no means broken.

Rigeld2
2007-01-26, 10:24 AM
Although I'd laugh at the warrior who powered up like this then charged some monster with a fear radius, failed the will save, and turned and ran.
Hero's Feast.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-26, 11:07 AM
Hero's Feast.

We could probably start another thread on this. How many parties have a cleric willing to lose a precious 6th level slot for hero's feast in the morning? I know in my current campaign, I got the party cleric to agree to it precisely once, because we thought we might run into a vrock and needed poison immunity against its spores. Other than that, he refuses to do it. He is not a fan of being buff-bot.

Rigeld2
2007-01-26, 12:17 PM
Out of 7 slots he decides that devoting 1 per day is being a buff-bot (assuming a 30 Wisdom, not hard to get at all)? /shrug. But yeah, different thread.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-27, 07:56 AM
According to Wikipedia, the Shou Disciple appears in Unapproachable East, which is 3.5

Khantalas
2007-01-27, 08:11 AM
According to Wikipedia, the Shou Disciple appears in Unapproachable East, which is 3.5

Nooot really. It is more 3.2125 or something. I don't know, they keep changing it.

It came out before 3.5 Player's Handbook was published, IIRC. And it still lists the DR as DR number / + number.

PinkysBrain
2007-01-27, 08:33 AM
Here (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=721&p_created=1124475120&p_sid=oG8LmKsi&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9NzkmcF9wcm9kcz02OCw3OSZwX2NhdHM9JnBfcHY 9Mi43OSZwX2N2PSZwX3NlYXJjaF90eXBlPWFuc3dlcnMuc2Vhc mNoX25sJnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=&p_topview=1) is a nice list to see what's 3.0 and 3.5.

Khantalas
2007-01-27, 09:01 AM
Though some of those books belong in a transition stage between 3.0 and 3.5. Like Fiend Folio (shapechanger was made a subtype IIRC, but there were still beasts and DR was based on weapon enhancement) and Unapproachable East. However, one of them is listed as 3.0 and the other is 3.5.

Because there is not an official in-between version.

PinkysBrain
2007-01-27, 09:05 AM
The list can just serve as an official tie breaker, for those who want one.

Fiend Folio is one of the select few 3.0 books with a 3.5 update BTW.

Darrin
2007-01-27, 09:54 AM
Here (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=721&p_created=1124475120&p_sid=oG8LmKsi&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9NzkmcF9wcm9kcz02OCw3OSZwX2NhdHM9JnBfcHY 9Mi43OSZwX2N2PSZwX3NlYXJjaF90eXBlPWFuc3dlcnMuc2Vhc mNoX25sJnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=&p_topview=1) is a nice list to see what's 3.0 and 3.5.

Then that list is not entirely accurate. Unapproachable East is absolutely, positively, 100% 3.0 material (I'm looking at it right now). The class description assumes monks still have a separate unarmed attack bonus (3.0).

PinkysBrain
2007-01-27, 10:27 AM
It talks about changes from the revised core books, so no ... not 100%.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-27, 11:56 AM
According to the official errata page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20060531a), it's considered 3.5 by them.

Artanis
2007-01-27, 12:11 PM
Back in the general direction of the topic...

The fact that I was able to recognize a combo that can even be debated against a "Not Utter Crap" build is a step up for me! Whee! :smallbiggrin: